Understanding Guru As Per Granth Sahib

[Sikh80]

Respected pk70 ji,
SCANNED

We all interpret bani as per our understanding. But sometime we feel that we may not be correct and seek the help of others to resolve the issue. One of such issues for me is to understand Guru in terms of bani and Sikhism.

We have many kinds of references in The Granth Sahib:

• True Guru
• Sat Guru
• Perfect Guru
• Guru
• Granth Sahib
• Besides aad Guru, Jugaad guru, Sri Guru dev...etc

By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.

Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.

• The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord.

This line contains perfect Guru and God and states that perfect Guru has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of Lord. This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.

Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?

[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above]

I shall post my doubts in this thread after you have replied to this.There would be more than 100 tuk's where the term Guru/satguru and GOd have appeared in a single line. Obviously I cannot assign the same meaning to the different terms employed in bani.
I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani.

warm Regards

 

[Sikh80]

I quote below the Mool Mantra that gives the attributes of the almighty. Besides other attributes 'saibhung' and Akal are some of the important attributes. I am satisfied with the definition or the description of the God in attributes for.

Let us begin from Mool Mantra that is given below. I shall be giving the doubts again in this thread where I feel more comfortable for very obvious reasons.

<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ]

vwihgurU kyvl iek hY[ s`cw hY aus dw nwm, rcnhwr aus dI ivAkqI Aqy Amr aus dw srUp[ auh infr, kInw-rihq, Ajnmw qy svY-pRkwSvwn hY[ gurW dI dXw duAwrw auh prwpq huMdw hY[
There is but one God. True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.






Forgive me please.

 

[Sikh80]

The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of SGGS ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.

One can find other attrubutes from the bani.

Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. Sikh philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates sikhism from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.

Sikhism does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to Sikhism.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

You are proving that this topic is open to endless discussion and numerous ways of defining the topic. I really like the direction you have taken in this thread. It is completely novel. :star:

 

[Sikh80]

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

 

[Honey22]

Sikh 80 Ji, philosophy stated in your above post crashes down in a second, infront of Gurbani-the Ultimate Truth. Thanks for the endevour.



ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
maerai man maerai man sathigur preeth lagaaee raam ||
My mind, my mind - the True Guru has blessed it with the Lord's Love.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
har har har har naam maerai mann vasaaee raam ||
He has enshrined the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, Har, within my mind.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਣਹਾਰਾ ॥
har har naam maerai mann vasaaee sabh dhookh visaaranehaaraa ||
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, dwells within my mind; He is the Destroyer of all pain.
ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥
vaddabhaagee gur dharasan paaeiaa dhhan dhhan sathiguroo hamaaraa ||
By great good fortune, I have obtained the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan; blessed, blessed is my True Guru.
ਊਠਤ ਬੈਠਤ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਹ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
oothath baithath sathigur saeveh jith saeviai saanth paaee ||
While standing up and sitting down, I serve the True Guru; serving Him, I have found peace.
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥੧॥
maerai man maerai man sathigur preeth lagaaee ||1||
My mind, my mind - the True Guru has blessed it with the Lord's Love. ||1||
ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰਸੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
ho jeevaa ho jeevaa sathigur dhaekh sarasae raam ||
I live, I live, and I blossom forth, beholding the True Guru.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਗਸੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
har naamo har naam dhrirraaeae jap har har naam vigasae raam ||
The Name of the Lord, the Name of the Lord, He has implanted within me; chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, I blossom forth.
ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਮਲ ਪਰਗਾਸੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਵੰ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
jap har har naam kamal paragaasae har naam navan nidhh paaee ||
Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the heart-lotus blossoms forth, and through the Name of the Lord, I have obtained the nine treasures.
ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਥਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥
houmai rog gaeiaa dhukh laathhaa har sehaj samaadhh lagaaee ||
The disease of egotism has been eradicated, suffering has been eliminated, and I have entered the Lord's state of celestial Samaadhi.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਵ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਸੇ ॥
har naam vaddaaee sathigur thae paaee sukh sathigur dhaev man parasae ||
I have obtained the glorious greatness of Name of the Lord from the True Guru; beholding the Divine True Guru, my mind is at peace.
ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰਸੇ ॥੨॥
ho jeevaa ho jeevaa sathigur dhaekh sarasae ||2||
I live, I live, and I blossom forth, beholding the True Guru. ||2||
ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
koee aan koee aan milaavai maeraa sathigur pooraa raam ||
If only someone would come, if only someone would come, and lead me to meet my Perfect True Guru.
ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਵਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਾਟਿ ਸਰੀਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
ho man than ho man than dhaevaa this kaatt sareeraa raam ||
My mind and body, my mind and body - I cut my body into pieces, and I dedicate these to Him.
ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਈ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
ho man than kaatt kaatt this dhaeee jo sathigur bachan sunaaeae ||
Cutting my mind and body apart, cutting them into pieces, I offer these to the one, who recites to me the Words of the True Guru.
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
maerai man bairaag bhaeiaa bairaagee mil gur dharasan sukh paaeae ||
My unattached mind has renounced the world; obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, it has found peace.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤੇ ਦੇਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਹਮ ਧੂਰਾ ॥
har har kirapaa karahu sukhadhaathae dhaehu sathigur charan ham dhhooraa ||
O Lord, Har, Har, O Giver of Peace, please, grant Your Grace, and bless me with the dust of the feet of the True Guru.
ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥੩॥
koee aan koee aan milaavai maeraa sathigur pooraa ||3||
If only someone would come, if only someone would come, and lead me to meet my Perfect True Guru. ||3||
ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
gur jaevadd gur jaevadd dhaathaa mai avar n koee raam ||
A Giver as great as the Guru, as great as the Guru - I cannot see any other.
ਹਰਿ ਦਾਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
har dhaano har dhaan dhaevai har purakh niranjan soee raam ||
He blesses me with the gift of the Lord's Name, the gift of the Lord's Name; He is the Immaculate Lord God.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗਾ ॥
har har naam jinee aaraadhhiaa thin kaa dhukh bharam bho bhaagaa ||
Those who worship in adoration the Name of the Lord, Har, Har - their pain, doubts and fears are dispelled.
ਸੇਵਕ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
saevak bhaae milae vaddabhaagee jin gur charanee man laagaa ||
Through their loving service, those very fortunate ones, whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet, meet Him.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
kahu naanak har aap milaaeae mil sathigur purakh sukh hoee ||
Says Nanak, the Lord Himself causes us to meet the Guru; meeting the Almighty True Guru, peace is obtained.
ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
gur jaevadd gur jaevadd dhaathaa mai avar n koee ||4||1||
A Giver as great as the Guru, as great as the Guru - I cannot see any other. ||4||1||

 

[Sikh80]

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

 

[Honey22]

For a Sikh Guru is eternal. Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Crisma is SO GREAT, he even made historians and others says this about Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what to talk about Gurmukhs. All of the Bani is saying this Truth again and again, Guru Sahib Ji made Guru Ji eternal even for non Gurmukhs. Any body who write names of Gurus, at 11th Guru they do end up saying THIS ONE IS ETERNAL. and some say 11th Nanak------Dhan Guru Ji, Dhan Dhan Guru Ji.


pauVI ]
siqguru vfw kir swlwhIAY ijsu ivic vfIAw vifAweIAw ]
sih myly qw ndrI AweIAw ]
jw iqsu Bwxw qw min vsweIAw ]
kir hukmu msqik hQu Dir ivchu mwir kFIAw buirAweIAw ]
sih quTY nau iniD pweIAw ]18]


Pauree:
Praise the Great True Guru; within Him is the greatest greatness.
When the Lord causes us to meet the Guru, then we come to see them.
When it pleases Him, they come to dwell in our minds.
By His Command, when He places His hand on our foreheads, wickedness departs from within.
When the Lord is thoroughly pleased, the nine treasures are obtained. ||18||



:happy:Guru is Infinite:happy:

 

[Sikh80]

Bani Nirankaar hey.....

 

[HarsimranSingh]

For a Sikh Guru is eternal. Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Crisma is SO GREAT, he even made historians and others says this about Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what to talk about Gurmukhs. All of the Bani is saying this Truth again and again, Guru Sahib Ji made Guru Ji eternal even for non Gurmukhs. Any body who write names of Gurus, at 11th Guru they do end up saying THIS ONE IS ETERNAL. and some say 11th Nanak------Dhan Guru Ji, Dhan Dhan Guru Ji.


pauVI ]
siqguru vfw kir swlwhIAY ijsu ivic vfIAw vifAweIAw ]
sih myly qw ndrI AweIAw ]
jw iqsu Bwxw qw min vsweIAw ]
kir hukmu msqik hQu Dir ivchu mwir kFIAw buirAweIAw ]
sih quTY nau iniD pweIAw ]18]


Pauree:
Praise the Great True Guru; within Him is the greatest greatness.
When the Lord causes us to meet the Guru, then we come to see them.
When it pleases Him, they come to dwell in our minds.
By His Command, when He places His hand on our foreheads, wickedness departs from within.
When the Lord is thoroughly pleased, the nine treasures are obtained. ||18||



:happy:Guru is Infinite:happy:

Honey22 Ji,

Thanks for sharing the Truth.

Bani Nirankaar
Guru Parbrahm Parmesar
Gur Javad Avar na Koi
Koi Har Samaan nahi raja:yes:


Thanks and Forgive me Please

 

[Sikh80]

The chirping of the Birds and the flutters of the wings makes the environment quite beautiful. All that is required is the serenity of mind and that I have .
Anyone's contribution is welcome.

It is left to the moderators to impress upon the concerned person to make posts when the author has asked something.I have not yet finished as yet and do not require any certification from anyone as yet except pk70 ji or any one of the moderators.


I have posted a question to Pk70 ji and am waiting a reply.May be he is not there right now. I shall stop now.

Forgive me please.

 

[Sikh80]

kwieAw ngir bsq hir suAwmI hir inrBau inrvYru inrMkwrw ] (720-4, bYrwVI, mÚ 4)
In the body-village, the Lord Master abides; the Lord is without fear, without vengeance, and without form.
hir inkit bsq kCu ndir n AwvY hir lwDw gur vIcwrw ]1] (720-4, bYrwVI, mÚ 4)
The Lord is dwelling near at hand, but He cannot be seen. By the Guru's Teachings, the Lord is obtained. ||1||



---
The above Vaaks of Guru Maharaaj are very significant and tells us as to where HE is located. It is stated that HE is within us in the tiniest of the form called as jiva. I wonder if any human being born on the earth can do so.The obvious answer is no. Hence the creator is unique and has been referred to as unfathomable and that cannot be known. I shall go to the extent that HE cannot be seen even. After all, what can it be .It is formless and is near us and permeates everything. Obviously, it has to be supreme consciousness that is in all of us.The supeme consciousness guides the individual consciousness as both understand one another.Human body is only a product to carry that jiva. The supreme soul has been stated to be the God. It is that takes care of everything.
It also fits in the explanation that it abides in each home. As per bani one has to realize Naam to emanicipate the soul.One requires an understanding and the spiritual wisdom that is attained when HE has blessed us with the same.

 

[Sikh80]

How did the Creator created the Creation

The following Vaaks are indicative of as to how HE had formed this creation and other infinite forms of entities of similar nature. Here in the bani Guru Sahibaan have made it clear that it has been done by the Creator and not by them.Some of my learned friends are under the illusion that Our Ten Gurus in Human format are Lord and that they are responsible for the creation and that Gurus do have the creative potency of that level.

I wish it were so but the facts are not so. I am just helpless.



swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

Forgive me please.

 

[Sikh80]

Creation Of Human Body


Guru Sahibs have informed us that the entire creation has been created by the self-existent Creator and that they have never admitted that they have this attribute of self creation or preservation.They are not out of this temporal spacial world that is under the power of the Kaal. It is the creator who is beyond the KAAL. and is referred to as Akaal Purukh. Some of the friends are under misconception that our Gurus were capable of profducing and creating the Human body. Poorly, they are mistaken.
Bani Tells us as to how the God has created the Human body.


hir jIau guPw AMdir riK kY vwjw pvxu vjwieAw ] (922-11, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
The Lord placed the soul to the cave of the body, and blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body.


vjwieAw vwjw paux nau duAwry prgtu kIey dsvw gupqu rKwieAw ] (922-11, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden.


gurduAwrY lwie BwvnI ieknw dsvw duAwru idKwieAw ] (922-12, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
Through the Gurdwara, the Guru's Gate, some are blessed with loving faith, and the Tenth Door is revealed to them.


qh Anyk rUp nwau nv iniD iqs dw AMqu n jweI pwieAw ] (922-13, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
There are many images of the Lord, and the nine treasures of the Naam; His limits cannot be found.


khY nwnku hir ipAwrY jIau guPw AMdir riK kY vwjw pvxu vjwieAw ]38] (922-13, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
Says Nanak, the Lord placed the soul to the cave of the body, and blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body. ||38||


Forfive me please.

 

[Sikh80]

Creator when there was no Creation


It is surprising as to how my friends are stating that 10 Gurus were the creators while it is stated clearly that the Lord is formless and had existed in the state of formlessness even prior to the creation.We get no such Vaak in the Granth sahib or other bani where it has been stated that Guru sahibs existed at that point of time when there was no creation.


qdhu Awpy Awip inrMkwru hY nw Epiq hoeI ] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
At that time, only the Formless Lord Himself existed - there was no creation.


ijau iqsu BwvY iqvY kry iqsu ibnu Avru n koeI ]1] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
As it pleased Him, so did He act; without Him, there was no other. ||1||

 

[Honey22]

Just sharing my views on the immortality factor.

Guru is Immortal.

Nobody knows when God gave Gurgaddi to Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Anybody please????
Human Body in which Dhan Guru Angad Dev Ji resided was born a long time ago before it received Guruship.
Humanbody in which Guru Nanak Resided was still around when Guru Angad Dev Ji got Guru ship.

So on---- All 10 Gurus same Jot- human bodies born and died- not Guru Ji.
First Nanak- here from eternity-God Himself.
11 Nanak-here untill eternity- God Himself.

:happy:No proof is needed to believe it, it is simple as it is.:happy:

 

[Honey22]

Sikh celebrate Agman and Joti Jot Days to honor the bodies where Jot resided.

Jithay jaae bahay mera satguru.......................................................................
Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Ji Maharaj

 

[pk70]

( quote Sikh 80 Ji)
[/FONT]By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.
Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.[/FONT]

• The [/FONT]Perfect Guru [/FONT]has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the [/FONT]True Lord[/FONT].[/FONT]

This line contains [/FONT]perfect Guru and God [/FONT]and states that [/FONT]perfect Guru [/FONT]has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of [/FONT]Lord.[/FONT] This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.[/FONT]
True.
[/FONT]Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?
[/FONT]It is Guru, qualified with adjective perfect to clarify the power of real one. The words should be understood and expressed only in the context they are used[/FONT]
[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above][/FONT]
Satguru is also used for Lord but you have to find the context, when He is shown, it is by Guru along with His grace, Guru ji never actually want the credit, that is why it is stated none is equal to Him, even when Guru Does, it is still His grace as I quoted from Mehl 3 in another thread" He shows himself in Guru, He brings honor to Guru..” Why only Guru’s blessings are not enough? Ponder over it? Gurbani verifies this repeatedly. Why? If Guru is God, why still HIS blessings are being begged? Guru ji is very clear, he leads, followers to follow right way and His grace is still sought as per Guru ji declaration.
[/FONT]I shall post my doubts in this thread after you have replied to this.There would be more than 100 tuk's where the term Guru/satguru and GOd have appeared in a single line. Obviously I cannot assign the same meaning to the different terms employed in bani.[/FONT]
Same thing, look at the context, the words are used in.
[/FONT]I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani. [/FONT]The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of SGGS ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.One can find other attrubutes from the bani.
[/FONT] Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. Sikh philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates Sikhism from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.[/FONT]
I agree, in nut a shell, this is the difference, why” Ajooni” is repeated in Gurbani, why Fifth Nanak curses those who call born individuals to be God since He is Ajooni and manifests in every one., why HE is addressed as Infinite, Inexpressible? Just to teach followers not to take bait from others who are there to promote human worship
[/FONT]Sikhism does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to Sikhism. One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.[/FONT]
They were enlightened by the Lord and remained way higher than other humans, Sikhs revered them as God like humans (which also fortify the humbleness within) , many fall for the bait and started doing what Guru ji said not to do.[/FONT]
Each Sikh is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.[/FONT]
Respecting Guru is very important. If there is no respect, how Guru Teachings can be followed truly? Respect for Gurbani must be at the same level.” Mannyai” believing occurs with respect, “Mun rakhiai bhaao” then love comes, first respect, “darr” also literally means “ fear due to respect” then “love” due to faith and respect cement the mind to follow as Guru/Gurbani directs otherwise trivial doubts will hinder the process.[/FONT]
The above is a qualification of the creator or the kartapurukh or some may call HIM as Akaal Purukh. He is not in the bondage of time. He is not transitory like us. He is the architect of our destiny and this none can be . Our Guru Sahibs had attained the heights of spirituality and had left an example that anyone can rise to that adorable level by following the teachings that are contained in the sabad-guru Maharaaj.i.e Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji.( With His grace only )[/FONT]
Through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji HE is the subject; Guru and sincere hearts are aids for that path of Truth; however, His grace is still vital as per Guru ji. Lets put it in simple words” Guru ji shows us a the path leading to Him, walking without any failure is in HIS hands and in ours hands.” In His hands” means His grace is still required” and “ in our hands” means that we need to do exactly what Guru says( we have to win the battle with the five). As we are aware of the fact that by studying SGGS Ji, we see what we are supposed to do, how to walk as per Guru teachings, success depends how much sincerity is in our efforts to follow Guru and still His grace remains in His hands.[/FONT]
The tenth Master had ordered that after his passing away the Granth Sahib should be the Guru was sikhs and this Guru is also treated as 11th Nanak as it contains the bani of earlier Guru and some Bhagats.
Granth Sahib ji contains the immaculate bani of the various seers and Bhagats.It is a compilation of the select banis of Gurus. The Nanak05 did the compilation and had appointed many scribes for this job.
The bani is stated to be 'Dhur ki bani' or 'Nirankaar' as it is stated to have originated from the God himself and our Guru Sahibs were chosen to mouth organ this bani. After the tenth Master the Guru Gaddi concept came to an end and sikhs find it easy to have the teachings in the Form of Granth i.e is called as Guru Granth sahib or some even prefer to call this as Nanak11 or the living Guru.[/FONT]
Regardless in what kind of words one reveres the Guru, it is the journey which is vital. If journey is started with hypocrisy, show off, beating the drum unnecessarily, boat is destined to be doomed. If it has started with high gravity of sincerity, Guru Support can lead to His grace eventually. I just wonder how we have the right to call Guru as God, we are advised otherwise. All metaphors are used to establish high reverence of the enlightened ones.[/FONT]
Here is Guru ji clearly states about HIM and His creation Guru[/FONT]
ਧਨੁ ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਤੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਚੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖarṇīḏẖar āp ajonī ṯol bol sacẖ pūrā.
Blessed is He, the supporter of the earth, who Himself is unborn and whose decision and speech are true and perfect. ( here “ tol bol” implies only His perfection)

ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੂਰਾ ॥੩॥
Karṯė kī miṯ karṯā jāṇai kai jāṇai gur sūrā. ||3||
The Creator's extent, only the Creator knows, or knows the valiant Guru,

[pk 70 ji..you have to answer my question at post 1.Kindly do that.][/FONT]
Bani, Sanskrit van! (meaning sound, voice, music; speech, language, diction; praise, laudation), refers in the specifically Sikh context to the sacred compositions of the Gurus and of the holy saints and sufis as incorporated in
[/FONT] the Scripture, the Granth Sahib. Compositions of Guru Gobind Singh comprising the Dasam Granth are also referred to as Bani. For Sikhs, Bani or the compound Gurbani (Guru`s ban!) is the revealed word.
Revelation is defined as the way God discloses and communicates Himself to humanity. There are different views on how he does this. The Hindu belief is that God occasionally becomes incarnate as an avatar and thus communicates Himself through his word and action while living on this earth. For the Muslims the revelation consists in actual words in the form of direct messages conveyed from God through an angel. Gabriel, to the Prophet.
Another belief is that God communicates not the form but the content of the words, i.e. knowledge, to man. A related view is that, as a result of the mystic unity they achieve with the Universal Self, certain individuals under Divine inspiration arrive at truths which they impart to the world.
Bani Nirankaar hey.....[/FONT]
In other thread( who is Guru of Sikhs) I posted Fifth Nanak’s own words about Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he calls it” pothi Parmeshar ka thaan” A place of God to realize HIM, a beautiful metaphor. He also qualifies it to tell us how it is place of God, we learn all about God from Guru Granth Sahib ji. On that thread, Laihayer ji too elaborated the real meanings behind Guru ji’s usage of metaphors to establish reverence of the Guru as well, please read it, it is worth reading to understand Guru Message; when one “ tuk” from here and the other from there is used to beat the drum loudly, Guru Message is buried down under one’s own views; however, in the end, TRUTH pervails.[/FONT]
Remember we are coming from a culture where humans are worshiped as real Gods and their business is booming. Guru ji has tried to break that trend but couldn’t eliminate debris of thousands years. His Ordinance, Vismaad, Vismaad !!!!!![/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

( quote Sikh 80 Ji)
[/FONT]
By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.
Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.[/FONT]

• The [/FONT]Perfect Guru [/FONT]has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the [/FONT]True Lord[/FONT].[/FONT]

This line contains [/FONT]perfect Guru and God [/FONT]and states that [/FONT]perfect Guru [/FONT]has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of [/FONT]Lord.[/FONT] This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.[/FONT]
True.
[/FONT]
Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?
[/FONT]
It is Guru, qualified with adjective perfect to clarify the power of real one. The words should be understood and expressed only in the context they are used[/FONT]

[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above][/FONT]

Satguru is also used for Lord but you have to find the context, when He is shown, it is by Guru along with His grace, Guru ji never actually want the credit, that is why it is stated none is equal to Him, even when Guru Does, it is still His grace as I quoted from Mehl 3 in another thread" He shows himself in Guru, He brings honor to Guru..” Why only Guru’s blessings are not enough? Ponder over it? Gurbani verifies this repeatedly. Why? If Guru is God, why still HIS blessings are being begged?

Guru ji is very clear, he leads, followers to follow right way and His grace is still sought as per Guru ji declaration.
[/FONT]
Same thing, look at the context, the words are used in.
[/FONT]I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani. [/FONT]The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of SGGS ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.One can find other attrubutes from the bani.
[/FONT] Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. Sikh philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates Sikhism from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.[/FONT]

I agree, in nut a shell, this is the difference, why” Ajooni” is repeated in Gurbani, why Fifth Nanak curses those who call born individuals to be God since He is Ajooni and manifests in every one., why HE is addressed as Infinite, Inexpressible? Just to teach followers not to take bait from others who are there to promote human worship
[/FONT]
Sikhism does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to Sikhism. One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.[/FONT]

They were enlightened by the Lord and remained way higher than other humans, Sikhs revered them as God like humans (which also fortify the humbleness within) , many fall for the bait and started doing what Guru ji said not to do.[/FONT]

Each Sikh is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.[/FONT]

Respecting Guru is very important. If there is no respect, how Guru Teachings can be followed truly? Respect for Gurbani must be at the same level.” Mannyai” believing occurs with respect, “Mun rakhiai bhaao” then love comes, first respect, “darr” also literally means “ fear due to respect” then “love” due to faith and respect cement the mind to follow as Guru/Gurbani directs otherwise trivial doubts will hinder the process.[/FONT]


The above is a qualification of the creator or the kartapurukh or some may call HIM as Akaal Purukh. He is not in the bondage of time. He is not transitory like us. He is the architect of our destiny and this none can be . Our Guru Sahibs had attained the heights of spirituality and had left an example that anyone can rise to that adorable level by following the teachings that are contained in the sabad-guru Maharaaj.i.e Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji.( With His grace only )[/FONT]

Through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji HE is the subject; Guru and sincere hearts are aids for that path of Truth; however, His grace is still vital as per Guru ji. Lets put it in simple words” Guru ji shows us a the path leading to Him, walking without any failure is in HIS hands and in ours hands.” In His hands” means His grace is still required” and “ in our hands” means that we need to do exactly what Guru says( we have to win the battle with the five). As we are aware of the fact that by studying SGGS Ji, we see what we are supposed to do, how to walk as per Guru teachings, success depends how much sincerity is in our efforts to follow Guru and still His grace remains in His hands.[/FONT]


The tenth Master had ordered that after his passing away the Granth Sahib should be the Guru was sikhs and this Guru is also treated as 11th Nanak as it contains the bani of earlier Guru and some Bhagats.

Granth Sahib ji contains the immaculate bani of the various seers and Bhagats.It is a compilation of the select banis of Gurus. The Nanak05 did the compilation and had appointed many scribes for this job.

The bani is stated to be 'Dhur ki bani' or 'Nirankaar' as it is stated to have originated from the God himself and our Guru Sahibs were chosen to mouth organ this bani. After the tenth Master the Guru Gaddi concept came to an end and sikhs find it easy to have the teachings in the Form of Granth i.e is called as Guru Granth sahib or some even prefer to call this as Nanak11 or the living Guru.[/FONT]

Regardless in what kind of words one reveres the Guru, it is the/ journey which is vital. If journey is started with hypocrisy, show off, beating the drum unnecessarily, boat is destined to be doomed. If it has started with high gravity of sincerity, Guru Support can lead to His grace eventually. I just wonder how we have the right to call Guru as God, we are advised otherwise. All metaphors are used to establish high reverence of the enlightened ones.[/FONT]

Here is Guru ji clearly states about HIM and His creation Guru[/FONT]
ਧਨੁ ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਤੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਚੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖarṇīḏẖar āp ajonī ṯol bol sacẖ pūrā.
Blessed is He, the supporter of the earth, who Himself is unborn and whose decision and speech are true and perfect. ( here “ tol bol” implies only His perfection)

ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੂਰਾ ॥੩॥
Karṯė kī miṯ karṯā jāṇai kai jāṇai gur sūrā. ||3||
The Creator's extent, only the Creator knows, or knows the valiant Guru,

[pk 70 ji..you have to answer my question at post 1.Kindly do that.][/FONT]

Bani, Sanskrit van! (meaning sound, voice, music; speech, language, diction; praise, laudation), refers in the specifically Sikh context to the sacred compositions of the Gurus and of the holy saints and sufis as incorporated in [/FONT]the Scripture, the Granth Sahib. Compositions of Guru Gobind Singh comprising the Dasam Granth are also referred to as Bani. For Sikhs, Bani or the compound Gurbani (Guru`s ban!) is the revealed word.

Revelation is defined as the way God discloses and communicates Himself to humanity. There are different views on how he does this. The Hindu belief is that God occasionally becomes incarnate as an avatar and thus communicates Himself through his word and action while living on this earth. For the Muslims the revelation consists in actual words in the form of direct messages conveyed from God through an angel. Gabriel, to the Prophet.
Another belief is that God communicates not the form but the content of the words, i.e. knowledge, to man. A related view is that, as a result of the mystic unity they achieve with the Universal Self, certain individuals under Divine inspiration arrive at truths which they impart to the world.
Bani Nirankaar hey.....[/FONT]

In other thread( who is Guru of Sikhs) I posted Fifth Nanak’s own words about Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he calls it” pothi Parmeshar ka thaan” A place of God to realize HIM, a beautiful metaphor. He also qualifies it to tell us how it is place of God, we learn all about God from Guru Granth Sahib ji.

On that thread, Laihayer ji too elaborated the real meanings behind Guru ji’s usage of metaphors to establish reverence of the Guru as well, please read it, it is worth reading to understand Guru Message; when one “ tuk” from here and the other from there is used to beat the drum loudly, Guru Message is buried down under one’s own views; however, in the end, TRUTH pervails.[/FONT]
Remember we are coming from a culture where humans are worshiped as real Gods and their business is booming. Guru ji has tried to break that trend but couldn’t eliminate debris of thousands years. His Ordinance, Vismaad, Vismaad !!!!!![/FONT]

As a first job I have segregated the answers that you have given to my various posts.I am indeed grateful for this.I can make out few things:

1. The matter is to be read in context before any meaning can be assigned.

2. The Creator could qualify for Ajooni.

3. He is 'saibhang' ;self-existent

4. HIS grace or Nadar is one of the important concept in Sikhism.
Our Guru Sahibaan were blessed as they had the blessings of the Almighty ;the Creator HIMSELF.

5. Bani is 'dhur ki Bani' and has to be read in the context as well.





I shall post some other attributes before posting my doubts

Thanks and regards pk70 ji .

 

[Sikh80]

Word/Naam/shabad and God




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