Undermining Sikhism

[BhagatSingh]

Ignoring what I have written above and below the actual content... read on!

Aad ji, You mentioned in another part of the forum that one of the rules is to not "Undermine Sikhism".
I wanted to ask and thought this would be the perfect place to do so.
How would one go about "undermining Sikhism"?
By Sikhism if one means the organized Religion including the rehit and Dasam Granth, then I believe I have already done that along with many other members on the forum.
By Sikhism, if one means the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how do you undermine them???

I need clarification on this, and perhaps others do as well.

Thanks
Bhagat​

 

[dalsingh]

Bhagat, just be careful to tred gently when faith is concerned. Some Sikhs are prone to go nuts when you challenge fundamental beliefs. I think you need to put your questions more prudently lest you court unneccesary (can never spell that word!!) controversy and provoke anger.

Just be smooth and don't "arrh" (the Panjabi word) on issues.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

I agree with Dalsingh ji and would add this. Do not respond constantly with lawyer-like questions every time someone posts a response. Let the members speak their minds. If you really want an answer to your questions then do not fence with the membership.

Sit back and see what the answers and opinions are.

 

[friend]

how can the 5th largest and striclty practiced religion be undermined.

 

[dalsingh]

Yeah Bhagat!!

Further to Aad jis post. If you are that way inclined you should be studying law not "doctori"!

New Panjabi word I learnt recently "kasoori" = argument.

Aahmay nah kasoori pa!

 

[pk70]

Yeah Bhagat!!

Further to Aad jis post. If you are that way inclined you should be studying law not "doctori"!

New Panjabi word I learnt recently "kasoori" = argument.

Aahmay nah kasoori pa!

I think its "bhathoori" not kasoori, if mistyped, forgive me.

 

[friend]

I think its "bhathoori" not kasoori, if mistyped, forgive me.

I think both of them, can mean arguement.

 

[BhagatSingh]

What about a combination of the two, a Bhasoorhi? I think that is a real word.

I think I do "Arrh" sometimes.

I think what has been said so far generally goes for society (up in person) as well as the forums. I HAVE been told by an anti-social Sikh fellow that I am pretty anti-social.

Great adive! Aad ji I am going to apply yours right now, and wait for more responses before I ask why noone bothered to answer the question besides friend who seems to have ignored it!!!! :}--}:
kidding... I totally understand what you mean. I think its because I lack patience, which is SO werid because I work on huge paintings that REQUIRE a great deal of patience! I seriously lack the ability to learn about myself FROM myself so its very imporant for me to hear what others have to say about me.
Great adive so far guys!

DalSingh ji, you're right I don't think I could be a family doctor.
"what do you mean you're sick, why do you think so? what evidence do you have? from what source did you get this from? when they said this they meant something else!!" - Bhagat Singh, perhaps-in-the-near-future AD

 

[spnadmin]

Happy face -- icons not working -

 

[Admin]

Bhagat Singh ji, you have spared no opportunity ridiculing the Sikh Bana and belittling Sikh Gurus in your messages but quite surprisingly you paint all the Sikh personalities in full bana and attire... and as per your writings and imagination, they should all be clean shaven and what not... your words do not support your paintings... how about creating a portrait of Baba Deep Singh ji without a Turban and without a flowing beard...? You see its all acceptable in the name of freedom of expression!! right?

And then you are making money out of selling such glorified portaits of such an important peronsalities in Sikh history... you are doing this only for money then it is quite apprent as your writings suggest little impression that you are creating these images out love and respect for these personalities... even if you have some respect for them then it does reflect in your messages...

People who shamelessly maintain double standards are undermining Sikhism. :welcome:
Bhul Chuk Maaf

 

[Archived_Member_19]

i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.

What has he undermined?

1 or 2 ?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat Singh ji, you have spared no opportunity ridiculing the Sikh Bana and belittling Sikh Gurus in your messages but quite surprisingly you paint all the Sikh personalities in full bana and attire... and as per your writings and imagination, they should all be clean shaven and what not... your words do not support your paintings... how about creating a portrait of Baba Deep Singh ji without a Turban and without a flowing beard...? You see its all acceptable in the name of freedom of expression!! right?

And then you are making money out of selling such glorified portaits of such an important peronsalities in Sikh history... you are doing this only for money then it is quite apprent as your writings suggest little impression that you are creating these images out love and respect for these personalities... even if you have some respect for them then it does reflect in your messages...

People who shamelessly maintain double standards are undermining Sikhism. :welcome:
Bhul Chuk Maaf

Dear Aman Singh ji
It would lead me nowhere if I simply read this and say OK i am wrong when I don't see where I am wrong.
It would be just as stupid of me, to read and this try and quote posts where I haven't riduculed or to say things like " I think Bana is cool" when you feel in other posts I have said the opposite.
Therefore, I humbly ask you to honestly list the posts on this thread where you felt that I had done what you accuse me of.
- so I can explain myself and clarify any misconceptions that may exist
- so that I can change for the better
- so that others can see examples of undermining sikhism because that is what this thread is about

Thank you for your patience. I admire it.

Amarsanghera ji

i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.

What has he undermined?

1 or 2 ?

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[pk70]

i think Bhagat Singh's question remains unanswered.

What has he undermined?

1 or 2 ?

Reread Aman Ji's post, its crystal clear.

 

[Admin]

The explanation to your 'questions', i will leave to your conscious.

Dear Aman Singh ji
It would lead me nowhere if I simply read this and say OK i am wrong when I don't see where I am wrong.
It would be just as stupid of me, to read and this try and quote posts where I haven't riduculed or to say things like " I think Bana is cool" when you feel in other posts I have said the opposite.
Therefore, I humbly ask you to honestly list the posts on this thread where you felt that I had done what you accuse me of.
- so I can explain myself and clarify any misconceptions that may exist
- so that I can change for the better
- so that others can see examples of undermining sikhism because that is what this thread is about

Thank you for your patience. I admire it.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Aman Singh ji,
Is that in response to my post?
Never mind.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Dear Aman Singh ji,

OK you have edited your response that helps. I actually dont agree with any of your accusations. I think about it and continue to do so but no matter how much I think I cannot agree with it. My concious does not tell me that they are true either.
Just take one of my recent posts. I'll show you in plain colour how I have tried to argue from both sides. red is where I am argued against "bana" and blue is where I have spoken for it.
That green is why you see Sikhs in my paintings with full bana.

Originally Posted by tony

I have heard hair is used for the making of vitamin D2 which is correct but only when the skin is completly covered and sunlight can not touch the skin i.e. animals with fur.​

Where are you getting this from?

Skin produces some types of vitamin D if I am not mistaken.

People keep asking why do we keep our hair long?
What?!? Why shouldn't we? Did we not evolve with long hair? Are long hair not a signature distinction of man from animals? ​

Do scientists understand why humans have long hair? Nope

Theories include, sexual selection - we are able to tell how healthy someon is by looking at their hair, so selection of a mate

Its a vestigial trait - long hair did not hinder our survival so we did not lose it, like our appendix
Functional - babies have strong grip. Why? So they can latch on to something... picture a koala with baby... replace mother koala with a human... replace baby koala with a human child clung to the hair of the parent, as the human parent works away.​

See nails need to keep growing thats why there is a need to cut them because our environment is different from what it was before. Now we cannot naturally keep our nails short.​

What are the reasons for cutting hair? Well, cutting of hairs was done to show control. Along with circumcision, which came later when haircuts were common. What's next??​

Why were Sikhs told to keep long hair? because of the conversion process of Mughals. There seems to be no other solid reason.​

I always wonder about the kara and this is the nicest explanation I heard would love to know if this is right and if it is why has it been reduced in size.

The kara shows commitment, only little bits of the metal go through your skin. IN fact the hair on my right arm are slightly healthier, more shiny than teh hair on my left arm. I assume this is because of my kara. You can use a big one in self defense but other than that its pretty pointless. [Nowadays]​

the kachera seems pretty logical but are they neccassery now days, how many Sikhs ride horses.​

Have you ever worn a kachera? Its the most comfortable thing ever!!​

The kirpan a means to protect is very out dated. one if you used it in self defence in England and the other person wasnt armed you would have a job proving that it wasnt excessive force, Most people who have claimed it was in selfdefence have failed and are doing time, also if you pull a knife out your quite likely to get shot these days and these also the fact that if one carries a weapon the other will get a bigger/ better weapon hence the nuclear arms race. thank you for your posting but still it hasnt shed any light on the need for them,

Kirpan is useless and outdates like you said. A kara works better for self defense anyways. About it being a sumbol for protection of the weak... Who does that?? And even if you didn't have a kirpan, oyu would be able to help someone. [I am here looking at the persent day situation]

If nothing else a kirpan looks cool.​

Hair cannot give you strength or energy, it is dead from the moment it leaves the folical it cannot repair its self nor does it require any more nutrients after being cut than if it is left uncut. It grows at the same rate reguardless,

No sir. You will consume more materials to try and build cut hair than if your hair are uncut. Because once a hair grows to a certain length it stops. If you cut it it has to keep growing. WE assume in both cases the shedding rate is the same. [This I found out was complete nonsense, but that fact I argued for hair still remains.]​

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98160
The post after this: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98163

This post (and the one after it with the passages) only analyzes what we know, and I don't know how you can come to a certain conclusions about MY FEEELINGS towards something. Feelings should have no place in such dicussions because they lead the discussions away from its essence.
But since you have brought it up, I have very strong feelings for keeping of uncut hair, and for the dress code of Sikhs during those wars I paint. With litle uncertainity, I do believe that Baba Deep Singh and sikhs like him did follow the rehit laid down by Guru Gobind Singh. This is why I painted him with full bana.
But I know Mati Das ji ( that's one example) did not follow the rehit so the length of his hair is upto the artist's imagination. And the artist is no way SHOULD be obligated to paint him with long uncut hair and such.
You are essentially confusing historical situation and present day situation. I am keeping them separate, painting history how I percieve it is and accordig to my knowledge, and presenting my arguments on the forum based on how those things apply now.

So that's about the bana; um .. I don't know if I have ever belittled the Gurus. I remember once I said they probably couldn't dance in response to the "Dancing and Gurbani" posts. if you think that's belittling the Gurus then there is nothing I can do. its a plain comment on their lifestlye, and its a very UNCERTAIN comment. but I do remember that such statements are not adding to the discussion so did I not stop and apologise??

Therefore, I conclude that what you have accused me of is simply not true. Its more of an emotional accusation than anything, with no basis. This emotion has been brought to my attention (by other members), and I can only TRY to be more sensitive to such topics.

With utmost sincerity,
Bhagat

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dear Aman Singh ji,

OK you have edited your response that helps. I actually dont agree with any of your accusations. I think about it and continue to do so but no matter how much I think I cannot agree with it. My concious does not tell me that they are true either.
Just take one of my recent posts. I'll show you in plain colour how I have tried to argue from both sides. red is where I am argued against "bana" and blue is where I have spoken for it.
That green is why you see Sikhs in my paintings with full bana.



http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98160
The post after this: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24540-the-five-ks-why-2.html#post98163

This post (and the one after it with the passages) only analyzes what we know, and I don't know how you can come to a certain conclusions about MY FEEELINGS towards something. Feelings should have no place in such dicussions because they lead the discussions away from its essence.
But since you have brought it up, I have very strong feelings for keeping of uncut hair, and for the dress code of Sikhs during those wars I paint. With litle uncertainity, I do believe that Baba Deep Singh and sikhs like him did follow the rehit laid down by Guru Gobind Singh. This is why I painted him with full bana.
But I know Mati Das ji ( that's one example) did not follow the rehit so the length of his hair is upto the artist's imagination. And the artist is no way SHOULD be obligated to paint him with long uncut hair and such.
You are essentially confusing historical situation and present day situation. I am keeping them separate, painting history how I percieve it is and accordig to my knowledge, and presenting my arguments on the forum based on how those things apply now.

So that's about the bana; um .. I don't know if I have ever belittled the Gurus. I remember once I said they probably couldn't dance in response to the "Dancing and Gurbani" posts. if you think that's belittling the Gurus then there is nothing I can do. its a plain comment on their lifestlye, and its a very UNCERTAIN comment. but I do remember that such statements are not adding to the discussion so did I not stop and apologise??

Therefore, I conclude that what you have accused me of is simply not true. Its more of an emotional accusation than anything, with no basis. This emotion has been brought to my attention (by other members), and I can only TRY to be more sensitive to such topics.

With utmost sincerity,
Bhagat

This is so far from the Truth. Take a look at the thread: 'Manmukh or Gurmukh: Can mind serve as spiritual authority?'
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/24321-manmukh-gurmukh-can-mind-serve-spiritual.html

also here; http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24315-hair-9.html

also in this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/23677-dancing-and-gurbani.html

..............

 

[spnadmin]

Once again the thread is becoming a two-way argument between two forum members. The thread is going downhill. Posts have been removed. Return to the subject of the thread. The last question asked was "Can mind serve as a spiritual authority?" aad0002

 

[Archived_Member_19]

pk70 ji

sadly it did not seem clear to me.

I think Bhagat asked the question very objectively and clearly.

The answer was not clear and objective, but deductive and based on own perception of other person's posts and intentions.


might be my shortcoming in grasping the language or anything.

apologies anyways !

 

[Admin]

Amar ji, We just can't jump in from here or there and seek clarification on a matter that we ain't got a clue? May be you visited SPN after a while... this topic was a kind culmination of various off topic posts in various threads... i hope that made sense...