Controversial UK Sangat Prevents Beadbi At Grays Gurdwara

Archived_Member16 · Oct 18, 2010

UK SANGAT PREVENTS BEADBI
AT GRAYS GURDWARA

UK SEWADARS | Published on October 17, 2010

GRAYS, ESSEX - On Saturday 16 October, at least 250 Gursikhs, which included men, women, children, young and old from across the UK, travelled to Grays Gurdwara to prevent the Beadbi of meat and alcohol being served on Gurdwara owned hall. On arrival, the Gurdwara committee was adamant that the party would go ahead. In the Khalsa spirit, the Sangat went to the proposed party hall and did Simran, Chaupai Sahib Paath and Kirtan to prevent any party from taken place. The family who had arranged the wedding party and the Gurdwara committee realised the party could not take place after seeing the sheer numbers of Sangat that were present for the peaceful protest.

The committee declined the Sangat’s request to come face to face with the Sangat and openly declare that they will not commit any sacrilege or allow anti-Gurmat activities in the future. After successfully preventing the wedding party from taken place, the Sangat went to the Darbar Hall where requests were repeated for the Committee to talk the Sangat openly. The committee refused to come in the public eye and instead agreed after some time that they would be prepared for private talks with a small delegation of Gursikhs in the committee room. Eight respected Gursikhs were chosen to speak to the committee. Before the delegation engaged in talks with the Committee, an Ardaas was performed and Guru Sahib blessed his Sikhs with the following Hukamnama on Ang 677:

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਃ ੫ ||
ਸੋ ਕਤ ਡਰੈ ਜਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੈ ||
ਡਰਿ ਡਰਿ ਪਚੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਵੇਚਾਰੇ ||੧|| ਰਹਾਉ ||

Dhanaasaree, revealed by Fifth Guru:
One who contemplates his Lord and Master - why should he be afraid? The wretched self-willed manmukhs are ruined through fear and dread. ||1||Pause and Reflect||

The Gursikh delegation told the committee members in no uncertain terms that the party hall must be stopped, and explained the Akal Takhat Sahib Sandesh that requires no dancing, anti-Gurmat activities, or serving of meat or alcohol on any Gurdwara owned property. The committee said that although they agree with the Akal Takhat Sahib, however they were in no position to take a decision as their local community had approved the usage of the party hall.

After no resolution being reached, the Sangat present in the Darbar Hall unanimously decided that the Grays Gurdwara committee and local community will be given one month to confirm whether they will implement the Akal Takhat Sahib Sandesh and not allow any more parties in the future. If any future sacrilege occurs in the future, the Sangat agreed that they will come in greater numbers and respectfully take away all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji’s Saroops and remove the Gurdwara Nishaan Sahib. The resolutions of the Sangat will be re-communicated to the Grays Gurdwara committee in an open letter, which will be made available to the wider Sangat.

The Sangat also resolved, and did Ardaas in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, that each member of Sangat that had attended would personally take responsibility to ensure that their local Gurdwara Sahib complies with the Akal Takhat Sahib’s directives and would work peacefully towards preventing any beadbi. The Sangat were passionate that no form of sacrilege and violation of Gur Maryada will be tolerated and that are currently there are 14 or so other Gurdwara Sahibs in the UK, where meat and alcohol is served on Gurdwara owned premises.

Guru Jee gave the following Hukamnama (Ang 681):

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਦੂਤ ਦੁਸਮਨ ਸਭਿ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਨਿਵਰਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ॥
ਜੋ ਜੋ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਦੁਖਾਏ ਓਹੁ ਤਤਕਾਲ ਤੁਮ ਮਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

Dhanaasaree, revealved by Fifth Guru:
All demons and enemies are eradicated by You, Lord; Your glory is manifest and radiant. Whoever harms Your devotees, You destroy in an instant. ||1||

Throughout the protest, the Sangat maintained a peaceful presence, and was focused only on ensuring that Gur Maryada is abided by and that sacrilege of meat and alcohol being served on Gurdwara owned property is prevented. The Sangat was thankful to all Gurdwara Sahibs, organisations and Panthic jathebandis that had publicly supported this peaceful protest. The whole peaceful protest was filmed by Sikh TV and Sikh Channel and will be telecasted for the wider Sangat soon.

The Grays incident has galvanised the Sangat's spirit, determination and resolve to peacefully rid the curse of meat and alcohol in all UK Gurdwaras.This successful peaceful protest sends a strong warning to all individuals and Gurdwara committees that are or plan to allow anti-Gurmat activities on any Gurdwara owned or funded property in order to earn extra revenue that they immediately stop as the beloved Sikhs of the Guru never have and never will tolerate any violation of the Guru.

source:
http://www.panthic.org/articles/5299

Tejwant Singh · Oct 18, 2010

Soul Jyot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have a question. Was the Anand Karaj performed or not? It is a very difficult situation in which it is tough to find common ground. The culture and the religion are intermingled and it is difficult to separate them. I can understand about forbidding alcohol and meat in the Gurdwara but not to allow Bhangra or other dances is a bit off the edge in my opinion. The party house next door must have been built to have extra revenues for the Gurdwara which is not a bad thing.

I know many Sikh homes that have SGGS parkash and also their bars are loaded with alcoholic drinks. They party at will. Many others who do not drink but eat meat and have the SGGS parkash, myself included.

So, the question comes, where do we draw the line? Is SGGS a mere book in paper form or is it the Shabad Guru in many forms like Cd's, at time lying on the floors of our vehicles, internet etc etc?

How far the bottle of Johnny Walker is appropriate from the paper form of SGGS?

If this takes place then does SGGS in paper form just become the idol to be worshipped?

In my opinion, if people have not Sikhi sprouting within then they become mere ritualistic and Anand Karaj, alcohol, meat dancing etc etc become more the social traditions rather than the spiritual ones.

We have had many weddings in our family in India, The US and Canada and no alcohol was served anywhere.

I would like to have input from others.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

spnadmin · Oct 18, 2010

Tejwant ji, Soul_jyot ji

This story is only a small part of the whole story. It is commonplace for any of the panthic.org outlets (sikhsangat, Global Sikh News, Voice of Sikhs, and some others) to publish supposed news accounts of how they have stopped a beadbi of the Guru. Large amounts of information are left out, giving the impression that the story contains all relevant details.

I have actually been monitoring this story for a few days on various Internet sites. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. For one thing, this particular organized protest is part of a greater campaign against a much larger number of gurdwaras that do have social halls which they rent out, not only to Sikhs but to other organizations and religions. These halls may not be attached to the gurdwara, or if they are attached, they are far from Darshan Sahib. The managing committees do depend on renting the halls for a variety of functions in order to raise revenue for the sangat.

We should expect to see more so-called news stories about similar protests. As I said more than one gurdwara has been targeted. In fact, some Rangharia temples have also been targeted because they rent to Hindu sangats who are willing to pay for space to observe seasonal poojas and celebrations.

So there is a list. And as soon as an event is scheduled, the Internet venues are used to line up the protesters. The word "peaceful" is used as a sop. I wonder how peaceful it would be if the group decided to go ahead with their function and defied the protestors?

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/24345/38/

Naturally caution prevails because the London police have already put all of Sikh London on notice that if protests require additional police intervention, the sangat will have to bear the expense of extra police coverage.

findingmyway · Oct 18, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
I know many Sikh homes that have Sri Guru Granth Sahib parkash and also their bars are loaded with alcoholic drinks.

Alcohol is definitely forbidden by Guru Granth Sahib Ji so I don't feel it is appropriate to have it kept on the same premises as the Guru's bir. Alcohol changes they way you think and may cause behaviours that the person later regrets as it may cause disrespect to our Guru.

If your grandfather was against alcohol and lived with you, would you tell him sorry but I'm going to drink or have others drink anyway? If the answer is no then we should not be going against out Guru's wishes in my opinion.

If people choose to drink at different premises then that is their choice. However, a Gurdwara should not be promoting sales of alcohol on their premises IMHO.

spnadmin · Oct 18, 2010

findingmyway ji

I agree with all you say. But the question I am raising is why we should believe this story is completely true in the first place? Without knowing some background, I would take it at face value. But I do not trust anything published by the panthic.org outlets.

findingmyway · Oct 19, 2010

You are absolutely right!! I got carried away with my soapbox speil about alcohol as I see what it does to people all the time

As for the above case, the only sources I can find are related to panthic. There is a youtube video about the protest filmed during a Sikhchannel visit about the issue but the conversation is very 1 sided - i could not see the committee represented there so we only have 1 side of the story.

There always seems to be some story or another relating to weddings. I remember when the Akal Takht edict came out saying that Anand Karaj's could only be performed in a Gurdwara, there was a group of youths in Bradford I think that went round to weddings outside the Gurdwara and stopped them. I don't remember there being any effort at diplomatic relations with the families concerned beforehand or any effort at educating the Granthi's and ensuring them of the sangat's support if they refused to carry out the ceremony outside of a Gurdwara but I may be wrong in this.

I also found on youtube, clips from several Gurdwara's around the country where alcohol is being served in parties in adjoining halls on the grounds. So the above story may well be true. When it comes to weddings, big money is involved so often committee's and granthis get swayed to accept which is why they don't speak out. This is partly our fault as a sangat as we rely too much on granthi's rather than learning Sikhi for ourselves. We also build big lavish Gurdwara's then struggle to keep them afloat as no-one wants to pay towards the high maintenance costs.

With reference to the above case, I have not been able to find out the whole story as I don't know anyone from that area but will keep asking around and if I hear anything I will write an update. Sometimes the action is justified, often things get reported out of proportion, sometimes its over zealous youth. Usually it's a combination of all of these factors!

spnadmin · Oct 19, 2010

findinmyway ji

Thanks for all the extra research you have done!!!!!!!! A lingering concern that I have is that Internet jathas have deputized themselves to police the state of Sikhi according to their whims, inclinations and understandings. They have in addition to a concern about alcohol which I share, a concern about meat. Meat is not kurehit. This shows they are without any concept of how to negotiate differences in a civil way. And I do not see why Ramgharias would need to be under scrutiny either.

It worries me. It reminds me of the Roundhead movement in England in the 17th Century.

findingmyway · Oct 19, 2010

I agree. Their intentions may be good but they are approaching the whole issue in completely the wrong way. I wish Granthi's would take more of a stand but it's become a career more than seva and they don't always have the sangats support if they do recognise that something is wrong.

Rather than causing conflict and scaring people away, we should be focussing on education and encouraging people. The tactics used are often very intimidating.

The meat issue concerns me a lot. It's scary how emphatic most people in the UK seem to be about about vegetarianism being part of Sikhi when it isn't. It's rammed down people's throats in Gurdwara's, at camps and on Sikh Channel. For many it causes them to lose interest as it feels like a law so they don't then pay attention to more important issues like alcohol use. You can't force people to change but you can show them another way so they have a choice :coolkudi:

spnadmin · Oct 19, 2010

I need to be quiet for a while

but one more thing.

A parallel concern - by posting the starter article Soul_jyot ji has given is a perfect example - a concern about dishonesty of this type of coverage. When one wing of an organization appoints itself to organize a protest, and another wing of the same organization covers the protest, that is not journalism. It is self-promotion, a kind of press release.

There is something else I have noted. The "exclusive" interview or news story that appears only in a panthic venue. If I google to see if any other online press venue has a similar story, the search often comes up null. This goes to your point of not finding any independent way to verify the content.

findingmyway · Oct 19, 2010

spnadmin said:
I need to be quiet for a while but one more thing.

No no no-please don't be quiet. Your posts get the thinking juices flowing and have enlightened many a member including me!!
Jasleen

hpannu · Oct 19, 2010

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> Dear SikhPhilosophy Members,[/FONT]
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ॥[/FONT][/FONT]
The questions raised in this discussion are real world concerns faced by our community on a routine basis. Question is where we draw a line.[/FONT]
My experience with ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ management is, 6 years on Board of Trustees. I was one of the youngest members of Management and served in various positions. Some of the issues faced were – Bhangra and Gidha, Interracial marriages, Sikh Groom or Bride with (White boy or girl, Hindu boy or girl and in one case Muslim boy), Smokers on premises and so on ……… One of the reasons we get in weird situations is other ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ’s in our area refuse these parties and we end up with them.[/FONT]
First big hit was when the groom was a Muslim boy. Management quickly called for an Emergency meeting to discuss it. After listening to both for and against this situation it was decided to let it happen since we allowed in the past both Hindu and American grooms and brides. It was also decided to make a uniform policy for future use. It took us close to one year to get everything on paper and get it passed by the CJSA Management.[/FONT]
Events that led us to make the Rules I like to call them Code of Conduct is – after one inter-racial marriage where the boy was a Hindu, Giani Ji telling us he was so upset after the Anand Karaj that he was not this upset in the last 30+
years. When asked why – he said after Milni he did Ardaas and when he said the Jakara VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH the boys side said JAI MATA DI. Giani Ji, he raised objection and after tense moments everyone agreed that this will not happen again. Giani Ji said even during the Anand Karaj ceremony there was no respect towards the GURU SAHIB and so on …… [/FONT]
Another incident that happened in the close by ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ – ਅਨੰਦ ਕਾਰਜ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਸੀ, ਚੌਥੀ ਲਾਂਵ ਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਸੀ, ਪ੍ਰਕਰਮਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਲਾੜਾ (boy getting married)ਭੰਗੜਾ ਪਾਉਣ ਲਗ ਪਿਆ । And this was a SIKH boy. Now this Management is very strict they are forming rules (code of conduct) too.[/FONT]
Some of the rules that passed through unanimous decision of the committee were –• NO disrespect towards 1. The Sikh Religion 2. Guru Granth Sahib 3. Sewadars (Volunteers) 4. Giani Ji (Priests) 5. Other Sangat Members • NO smoking and/or use of other tobacco products • NO loitering• NO fast/reckless driving• NO drinking of products containing alcohol except legal medicines• NO use of vulgar language• NO shoes, except in the shoe storage rooms at the entrance of the Gurudwara• NO eating or serving of meat products, including fish and poultry.• NO ribbon cutting at entrance of Gurudwara.• NO religious ceremonies belonging to other religions (e.g. Jai mala, Mangal Sutar, etc.)• NO horseback riding on Gurudwara property• NO playing of loud music in the Gurudwara except for kirtan• NO dhol/dancing/Bhangra or entertainment on the Gurudwara Premises.• NO uncovered head in the Gurudwara. NO unsupervised children under the age of 10 in the kitchen• NO eating/drinking in the kitchen• NO blocking of the electrical panel in the storage room (in the kitchen). Must maintain a clearance of 3 feet• NO sitting or standing with back to Sri Guru Granth Sahib• NO other person except Gyani Ji, and/or children belonging to CJSA Khalsa School are allowed on stage except by prior approval by the management• NO clapping in the Gurudwara• NO flower or any throwing on the couple during Anand Karj in Darbar Hall• NO provocative clothing should be worn in the Gurudwara at any time.• NO talking on cell phone in the Darbar Hall. Cell phone must be on silence or off.• NO Kalgi/ Sehra allowed in the Darbar Hall• NO Shagan allowed in the presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib.• NO Tents allowed without the necessary permit from Washington Township.• NO cooking under the tents (violation of fire permit).[/FONT]
Now after all honest efforts, rules are in place. But enforcement of rules is still lacking because we have Punjabi mentality ਜੋ ਕਰੂਗਾ ਉਹ ਭਰੂਗਾ । Management says too much strict ਨਾ ਹੋਵੋ people will start going to competition GURDUARAS. My point is go by the MARYADA, respect ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ If you cannot do it go where you want.[/FONT]
Last incident that bothered me and our Giani Ji was @ CJSA former President and Chairman of CJSA ਦੇ ਮੁੰਡੇ ਦਾ ਵਿਆਹ ਸੀ, boy was getting married to a white American girl. I was also invited and doing ਚੌਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸੇਵਾ, ਮੁੰਡਾ ਵੀ ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕ ਕੇ ਬੈਠ ਗਿਆ, ਗੋਰੀ ਕੁੜੀ ਆਈ, ਮੱਥਾ ਨਹੀ ਟੇਕਿਆ ਥੋੜਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਝੁਕਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਠ ਗਈ ਵਿਆਹ ਕਰਾਉਣ ਲਈ । ਅਨੰਦ ਕਾਰਜ ਦੀ ਰਸਮ ਆਰੰਭ ਕਰਣ ਤੋ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜੀ ਮੁੰਡੇ ਦੇ ਕੋਲ ਗਏ ਉਹਨੂੰ ਦਸਿਆ ਜਦ ਲਾਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਸੁਭਾਗ ਜੋੜੀ ਨੇ ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕ ਕਿ ਉਠਨਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਸੱਜੇ ਹੱਥ ਰਖ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਰਮਾ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੈ । ਮੁੰਡਾ ਅਗੇ ਤੁਰੇਗਾ ਅਤੇ ਕੁੜੀ ਉਸਦੇ ਪਿਛੇ ਪਿਛੇ, the boy refused to do that and said they will both walk together holding hands of each other. Giani Ji, ਨੇ ਮੁੰਡੇ ਦੇ ਪਿਉ ਨੂੰ ਦਸਿਆ, ਉਹ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਤਾਂ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਨਹੀ, ਕਰਦੇ ਕਰਦੇ ਮੁੰਡੇ ਦਾ ਮਾਸੜ ਗਿਆ ਉਹਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਲਈ, the groom refused again. Giani Ji refused to do ANAND KARAJ. All this was happening while I was doing ਚੌਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸੇਵਾ and didn’t know what was going on? ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਨਾਂਹ ਕਰ ਦਿਤੀ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਫੇਰ ਮੁੰਡੇ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਉਣ ਲਗੇ । SANGAT was seated with respect and wondering what was going on ? then word came ਮੁੰਡਾ ਮੰਨ ਗਿਆ । ਅਨੰਦ ਕਾਰਜ ਦੀ ਰਸਮ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕਰੋ । ਅਨੰਦ ਕਾਰਜ ਹੋਇਆ – ਨਾ ਕੁੜੀ ਪਿਛੇ ਤੁਰ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ ਨਾ ਬਰਾਬਰ it was weird marriage, at least they were not holding hands ਪੱਲਾ ਫੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਸੀ । Bottom line is there was lot of tension and if you ask me disrespect towards the GURU SAHIB.[/FONT]
Big Question is where should we draw a line? How much is tolerable and who decides what is tolerable? Please respond to these questions to the best of your knowledge.[/FONT]
I am out of CJSA management for the last 3 years and don’t seek any positions. Now I volunteer for CJSA Punjabi school and ਦਾਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀ ਪੜਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਲਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ and I am very HAPPY.[/FONT]
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spnadmin · Oct 19, 2010

hpannu ji

Big Question is where should we draw a line? How much is tolerable and who decides what is tolerable? Please respond to these questions to the best of your knowledge.

These are great questions.

findingmyway · Oct 19, 2010

hpannu ji,
thank you for sharing your experiences. there is one thing about church weddings that is very commendable. the couple are called in to speak to the priest beforehand. he discusses the ceremony and the purpose of marriage etc. they also rehe{censored} parts of the ceremony so they know exactly what is expected of them beforehand and why. i think if we did this in our gurdwara's many of the problems of beadbi of the guru would go away. this would also allow discussion of any concerns the couple has therefore avoiding conflict on the day.
jasleen

hpannu · Oct 19, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
Soul Jyot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have a question. Was the Anand Karaj performed or not? It is a very difficult situation in which it is tough to find common ground. The culture and the religion are intermingled and it is difficult to separate them. I can understand about forbidding alcohol and meat in the Gurdwara but not to allow Bhangra or other dances is a bit off the edge in my opinion. The party house next door must have been built to have extra revenues for the Gurdwara which is not a bad thing.

I know many Sikh homes that have Sri Guru Granth Sahib parkash and also their bars are loaded with alcoholic drinks. They party at will. Many others who do not drink but eat meat and have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib parkash, myself included.

So, the question comes, where do we draw the line? Is Sri Guru Granth Sahib a mere book in paper form or is it the Shabad Guru in many forms like Cd's, at time lying on the floors of our vehicles, internet etc etc?

How far the bottle of Johnny Walker is appropriate from the paper form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

If this takes place then does Sri Guru Granth Sahib in paper form just become the idol to be worshipped?

In my opinion, if people have not Sikhi sprouting within then they become mere ritualistic and Anand Karaj, alcohol, meat dancing etc etc become more the social traditions rather than the spiritual ones.

We have had many weddings in our family in India, The US and Canada and no alcohol was served anywhere.

I would like to have input from others.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji - VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

I was reading this discussion yesterday and twice started to reply but felt like i had to explain the situation we are in now a days before I post my reply to your questions -

Giddha and Bhangra should not be allowed in the Gurduara Sahib complex. My reasons are don't mix religion with the so called Punjabi culture. Gurduara Sahib should only be used to learn our GURU's teachings from GURU GRANTH SAHIB !

No alcohol should be allowed on Gurduara Sahib complex. At home- back in Patiala when i was a kid my father was a drinker and we had Guru Granth Sahib at home the same situation you are describing. Many times during my childhood my Father would ask us - he cannot go upstairs to do SUKHASAN SEVA ! he would ask us - one of his kids to do the seva If my mother was not available. Now i remember back then i didn't know GURMUKHI. he would instruct us to go upstairs and with respect close the GURU GRANTH SAHIB and wrap it and Bhulaan Chukkaan di maafi mang lani ! I am pretty sure when he went there 4am to do PARKASH and Hukamnama he was asking for forgiveness too ! He was a regular in the morning but evening duty was my Mom's. Now i don't drink or eat meat and making every effort to follow Guru's path, I am of the view if you cannot control yourself - meat, alcohol or any other Kurahit - you shouldn't have GURU GRANTH SAHIB parkash in your house.
Of Course we cannot control what a person can do at home? but Gurduara Sahib's are not an individual's home. we should do everything in our power to maintain it's SANCTITY !

i want to ask you something - will you allow Giani's to keep Johny walkers in there rooms at Gurduara Sahib complex even if there rooms are far away from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ?

I have always been blamed a hard liner - toon sadi sangat bhaja deven ga. Believe me i have never stopped anyone from coming to Gurduara Sahib but yes if i see a person disrespectful towards the GURU SAHIB I cannot stop myself from reminding to cover their heads or to go outside if they want to talk ...etc

Eagerly waiting for your response.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,
Harjot Singh

Tejwant Singh · Oct 19, 2010

findingmyway said:
hpannu ji,
thank you for sharing your experiences. there is one thing about church weddings that is very commendable. the couple are called in to speak to the priest beforehand. he discusses the ceremony and the purpose of marriage etc. they also rehe{censored} parts of the ceremony so they know exactly what is expected of them beforehand and why. i think if we did this in our gurdwara's many of the problems of beadbi of the guru would go away. this would also allow discussion of any concerns the couple has therefore avoiding conflict on the day.
jasleen

Jasleen ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you, especially when there are interracial marriages. This idea was mentioned in one of the threads sometime ago. We need people to know the protocol even of our on lot as marriage for many in the Gurdwara is not a Spiritual affair but a social and a traditional one. It was also suggested that the couple should be explained the meaning of Lavan and given some kind of written material about them so they can cultivate the understanding together and should be asked to come back a week later and discuss openly what they have understood about them and how they plan to abide by them. The couple needs positive guidance which is a must and we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib,our only Guru to guide us and others in these endeavours. Gurdwaras have to be proactive and welcoming and only by organising ourselves in this manner we can make things better in all aspects.

These kinds of things can become the spring board for the spiritual side of marriage rather than just the social one and the traditional one.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

hpannu · Oct 19, 2010

findingmyway said:
hpannu ji,
thank you for sharing your experiences. there is one thing about church weddings that is very commendable. the couple are called in to speak to the priest beforehand. he discusses the ceremony and the purpose of marriage etc. they also rehe{censored} parts of the ceremony so they know exactly what is expected of them beforehand and why. i think if we did this in our gurdwara's many of the problems of beadbi of the guru would go away. this would also allow discussion of any concerns the couple has therefore avoiding conflict on the day.
jasleen

Jasleen Kaur Ji,

Like I said we made the rules but enforcement is still long way.... I have always instructed to call both the parties Boy's side and Girls side to come in read the Code of Conduct and sign it before booking the function. Our general mentality is - when i asked Giani Ji why he didn't do that in the last scenario his answer was Munda de Pita Gurduara da Pardhaan reha ohnu ni pata ethe kiven ANAND KARAJ di rasam hundi aa. I always say no matter whose function it is - make sure they sign the papers and agree to it.

By the way I stopped this boy who got married to this american girl in a shopping complex a month or two after the marraige and asked him the same - GORE apne viah taan rehearsal karn ton bina nahi karde ! why didn't he do rehearsal before getting married. he didn't have an answer for me. i think first the parents didn't agree to the marraige and the boy was almost 34 years old then the parents gave in.

Thanks for starting this discussion,
Harjot Singh

hpannu · Oct 19, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
Jasleen ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you, especially when there are interracial marriages. This idea was mentioned in one of the threads sometime ago. We need people to know the protocol even of our on lot as marriage for many in the Gurdwara is not a Spiritual affair but a social and a traditional one. It was also suggested that the couple should be explained the meaning of Lavan and given some kind of written material about them so they can cultivate the understanding together and should be asked to come back a week later and discuss openly what they have understood about them and how they plan to abide by them. The couple needs positive guidance which is a must and we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib,our only Guru to guide us and others in these endeavours. Gurdwaras have to be proactive and welcoming and only by organising ourselves in this manner we can make things better in all aspects.

These kinds of things can become the spring board for the spiritual side of marriage rather than just the social one and the traditional one.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

These kinds of things can become the spring board for the spiritual side of marriage rather than just the social one.

Jasleen Kaur and Tejwant Singh Ji -

I am of the view that Interracial marraiges should be social marraiges only.

ANAND KARAJ should be performed between a Sikh boy and Sikh girl only. And our Maryada says so too. In Interracial marraiges the boy or girl should convert to SIKH way of life and accept GURU GRANTH SAHIB and it's teachings before getting married to each other.

If you go to a CHURCH or MOSQUE to get married they will ask you the same to first convert to their religion. I am not gonna say the same about HINDU because they consider SIKHS to be HINDUS.

We couldn't get this passed through our Management. :hopmad:

Bhul Chuk Maaf,
Harjot Singh

Tejwant Singh · Oct 19, 2010

hpannu said:
Tejwant Singh Ji - VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

I was reading this discussion yesterday and twice started to reply but felt like i had to explain the situation we are in now a days before I post my reply to your questions -

Giddha and Bhangra should not be allowed in the Gurduara Sahib complex. My reasons are don't mix religion with the so called Punjabi culture. Gurduara Sahib should only be used to learn our GURU's teachings from GURU GRANTH SAHIB !

No alcohol should be allowed on Gurduara Sahib complex. At home- back in Patiala when i was a kid my father was a drinker and we had Guru Granth Sahib at home the same situation you are describing. Many times during my childhood my Father would ask us - he cannot go upstairs to do SUKHASAN SEVA ! he would ask us - one of his kids to do the seva If my mother was not available. Now i remember back then i didn't know GURMUKHI. he would instruct us to go upstairs and with respect close the GURU GRANTH SAHIB and wrap it and Bhulaan Chukkaan di maafi mang lani ! I am pretty sure when he went there 4am to do PARKASH and Hukamnama he was asking for forgiveness too ! He was a regular in the morning but evening duty was my Mom's. Now i don't drink or eat meat and making every effort to follow Guru's path, I am of the view if you cannot control yourself - meat, alcohol or any other Kurahit - you shouldn't have GURU GRANTH SAHIB parkash in your house.
Of Course we cannot control what a person can do at home? but Gurduara Sahib's are not an individual's home. we should do everything in our power to maintain it's SANCTITY !

i want to ask you something - will you allow Giani's to keep Johny walkers in there rooms at Gurduara Sahib complex even if there rooms are far away from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ?

I have always been blamed a hard liner - toon sadi sangat bhaja deven ga. Believe me i have never stopped anyone from coming to Gurduara Sahib but yes if i see a person disrespectful towards the GURU SAHIB I cannot stop myself from reminding to cover their heads or to go outside if they want to talk ...etc

Eagerly waiting for your response.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,
Harjot Singh

Harjot Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for your elaborate do's and don'ts in the Gurdwara which are quite valid. Your interesting question in your earlier post:"Big Question is where should we draw a line? How much is tolerable and who decides what is tolerable"? Itis worth exploring from all possible aspects.

If we want our youth to participate and follow Sikhi, then we should turn Gurdwaras into community centers in the cities where there is a big Sikh population. Community centers needs more space which can be divided in the concept of Miri- Piri. The reality is whether we like to admit it or not that Gurdwaras are the social gathering places for most of us after a week of work to meet our friends and also show off our designers' suits etc etc.

Today,Sikhs in big cities and also in small towns of the US, Canada, UK and other countries are quite affluent and many of them have 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation kids whom we want to have the wonderful tools from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru, so they can make their lives better and become outstanding while standing out.

So, in my opinion a Gurdwara should have more than just Darbar Sahib. It should have basketball courts, swimming pools, recreation halls, youth counselling, which offers psychological help and also school homework help.

A place for retired people where they can come in the morning, have langar, play board games and then can go home in the evening. It should also have free medical clinics where volunteer doctors can pitch in. It should also have bhangra and gidda contests with different Gurdwaras.

To be able to do all this, the Gurdwara needs funds. So, I am fine with it having a banquet hall in the premises which can be rented to the Sikhs and to all different kinds of people as long as they follow the protocols laid by each Gurdwara.

I do not know whether you are aware of it or not that many Gurdwaras started renting Sunday places and no one questioned if someone had had a booze party there the night before.

The Lankershim Gurdwara, in North Hollywood was a Freemasons' temple which we used to rent every Sunday and cover the chairs etc etc with white sheets at 4am. No one questioned how much booze did the members have during their meetings there. Eventually, it was bought by the Sangat. Vermont Gurdwara, in Los Angles which was built from the scratch started in a banquet hall many many years ago.

Sikhi is about Miri- Piri which are two parallel tracks on which the Gurmat train runs. We can not have Piri in a cocoon and ignore Miri. Without proper Miri way of life, Piri can not be cultivated.

We have a choice here. Either we can live in a self created balloon and shackle ourselves in there and call it a Sikhi or we can learn to be open minded with the help of the concept of Miri- Piri, hence burst out of the balloon.

I would also like you to respond to my other questions in my earlier post regarding Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

I do not find any problem with interracial Anand Karajs provided they are taught the meanings of lavans and they are open to discuss what they have learnt in the sadh sangat.

You and I know many who call themselves Sikhs but do not keep the baana. Some of them wear turbans as their Sunday's best. They are no different than the couple who is inter racial. Are you OK with Baanaless Sikhs to have Anand Karaj? If you are, then you should not have any problems with others either because we are sowing the seeds of Sikhi concept in their minds, we can not expect them to reap the fruits and share with us there and then.

How many of us who have baana and taken khandei di pahul are perfect Sikhs? Sikhi is not about perfection but about the purity of the heart and in order to do that we have to take off the muck from the top that gets collected during this journey of ours.

Sikhi is not about cans and can nots & dos and do nots which are external impositions but about wills and will nots which can only be instilled through internal manifestation. So, our objective is to create a path way which can instill this in the people. That is why Sikhi is a journey, a life long ultra marathon.

i want to ask you something - will you allow Giani's to keep Johny walkers in there rooms at Gurduara Sahib complex even if there rooms are far away from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ?

Interesting but bewildering question. Why would a Gurdwara hire a Bhai who drinks and has not taken khandei di pahul?

Gurdwara Sahib complex is a very subjective thing as mentioned above. There are no walls between a Sikh and his/her Sikhi.

Now i don't drink or eat meat and making every effort to follow Guru's path, I am of the view if you cannot control yourself - meat, alcohol or any other Kurahit - you shouldn't have GURU GRANTH SAHIB parkash in your house.

I have no idea where you got this from that meat is a kuharit? Can you shed some light on this please?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Archived_Member16 · Oct 19, 2010

source: http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

<TABLE border=0 width=600><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Misconceptions About Eating Meat[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Sandeep Singh Brar[/FONT]

</TD><TD align=right>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE border=0 width=600><TBODY><TR><TD>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The view of Sikhism is that eating meat or abstaining from it is the individuals choice. A Sikh is considered no lesser or greater a Sikh if they eat meat or are a vegetarian.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Final Ruling from Akal Takht[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Akal Takht represents the final authority on controversial issues concerning the Sikh Panth, in this regard the issue of meat eating has been settled. Hukamnama issued by Akal Takht Jathedar Sandhu Singh Bhaura dated February 15th 1980 that Amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Sikh Reht Maryada (The Official Code of Conduct)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh is not allowed to eat the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Punjabi the word "Kuttha" specifically means meat prepared according to the Muslim ritual slaughter.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is Jhatka Meat and Why?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why is Meat not served in Langar?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat toghether in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.[/FONT]

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

hpannu · Oct 20, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
Harjot Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for your elaborate do's and don'ts in the Gurdwara which are quite valid. Your interesting question in your earlier post:"Big Question is where should we draw a line? How much is tolerable and who decides what is tolerable"? Itis worth exploring from all possible aspects.

If we want our youth to participate and follow Sikhi, then we should turn Gurdwaras into community centers in the cities where there is a big Sikh population. Community centers needs more space which can be divided in the concept of Miri- Piri. The reality is whether we like to admit it or not that Gurdwaras are the social gathering places for most of us after a week of work to meet our friends and also show off our designers' suits etc etc.

Today,Sikhs in big cities and also in small towns of the US, Canada, UK and other countries are quite affluent and many of them have 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation kids whom we want to have the wonderful tools from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru, so they can make their lives better and become outstanding while standing out.

So, in my opinion a Gurdwara should have more than just Darbar Sahib. It should have basketball courts, swimming pools, recreation halls, youth counselling, which offers psychological help and also school homework help.

A place for retired people where they can come in the morning, have langar, play board games and then can go home in the evening. It should also have free medical clinics where volunteer doctors can pitch in. It should also have bhangra and gidda contests with different Gurdwaras.

To be able to do all this, the Gurdwara needs funds. So, I am fine with it having a banquet hall in the premises which can be rented to the Sikhs and to all different kinds of people as long as they follow the protocols laid by each Gurdwara.

I do not know whether you are aware of it or not that many Gurdwaras started renting Sunday places and no one questioned if someone had had a booze party there the night before.

The Lankershim Gurdwara, in North Hollywood was a Freemasons' temple which we used to rent every Sunday and cover the chairs etc etc with white sheets at 4am. No one questioned how much booze did the members have during their meetings there. Eventually, it was bought by the Sangat. Vermont Gurdwara, in Los Angles which was built from the scratch started in a banquet hall many many years ago.

Sikhi is about Miri- Piri which are two parallel tracks on which the Gurmat train runs. We can not have Piri in a cocoon and ignore Miri. Without proper Miri way of life, Piri can not be cultivated.

We have a choice here. Either we can live in a self created balloon and shackle ourselves in there and call it a Sikhi or we can learn to be open minded with the help of the concept of Miri- Piri, hence burst out of the balloon.

I would also like you to respond to my other questions in my earlier post regarding Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

I do not find any problem with interracial Anand Karajs provided they are taught the meanings of lavans and they are open to discuss what they have learnt in the sadh sangat.

You and I know many who call themselves Sikhs but do not keep the baana. Some of them wear turbans as their Sunday's best. They are no different than the couple who is inter racial. Are you OK with Baanaless Sikhs to have Anand Karaj? If you are, then you should not have any problems with others either because we are sowing the seeds of Sikhi concept in their minds, we can not expect them to reap the fruits and share with us there and then.

How many of us who have baana and taken khandei di pahul are perfect Sikhs? Sikhi is not about perfection but about the purity of the heart and in order to do that we have to take off the muck from the top that gets collected during this journey of ours.

Sikhi is not about cans and can nots & dos and do nots which are external impositions but about wills and will nots which can only be instilled through internal manifestation. So, our objective is to create a path way which can instill this in the people. That is why Sikhi is a journey, a life long ultra marathon.

Interesting but bewildering question. Why would a Gurdwara hire a Bhai who drinks and has not taken khandei di pahul?

Gurdwara Sahib complex is a very subjective thing as mentioned above. There are no walls between a Sikh and his/her Sikhi.

I have no idea where you got this from that meat is a kuharit? Can you shed some light on this please?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji,

I would like to answer your questions one by one - it might take me some time, but i will do it. Our decisions should be based on GURMAT not on social obligations. I don't like to argue since it's a waste of time.

If we want our youth to participate and follow Sikhi, then we should turn Gurdwaras into community centers

I am not against community centers but they should not be built on Gurduara Sahib complex. Gurduara Sahib is only for GURMAT PARCHAR - nothing else. Look what is happening in Toronto? Senior Citizens hang around on Gurduara Sahib complex and play playing cards. Othe Galan vi chaldian, Manda vi boleya janda (apne ton reha nahi janda) Some of them even go to their Car to sneak a PEG or too. Same thing used to happen when i used to live in Yuba City - every year at Games (khedaan) used to happen at Gurduara Sahib grounds. But people would get drunk, fights and abuse the facilities. Now there is Yuba City Mela every year in the County playgrounds.

The reality is whether we like to admit it or not that Gurdwaras are the social gathering places for most of us after a week of work to meet our friends and also show off our designers' suits etc etc.

Gurduara Sahib is not a social gathering place and pehrava(dress) should be as simple as possible. Our main aim should be to listen to GURBANI and to live our life based on those teachings. Kala Matha Tekanna or Showoff of designer suits is a bhulekha, will not achieve anything !

o, in my opinion a Gurdwara should have more than just Darbar Sahib. It should have basketball courts, swimming pools, recreation halls, youth counselling, which offers psychological help and also school homework help.

I have seen basketball courts @ Gurduara Sahib in Yuba City infact at one time i used to believe in that NOT anymore An incident happened in Houston Texas Gurduara Sahib last year. Dr Jagtar Singh (a close friend) who is a GURSIKH (Amritdhari) in his early 30's was playing on basketball court at Gurduara Sahib with High school aged Kids, 2 Cars came, full of young boys looking for a kid (to beat) the person they were looking for was not there. One of the guys from the Car lighted a Cigrette on the Basketball court standing in the middle of BB Court. when Jagtar Singh told him politely to stop all of the miscreants attacked him and opened his skull. He was taken to emergency and luckily he is ok now.

Now my answer is we have BB courts in every neighbourhood, we cannot control what goes on Playground (do you realise that we have a big Drug problem within our community?) and Drug dealers come to such places to recruits under age boys. but again that is a different subject.

Swimming pool idea @ Gurduara Sahib is a first from you - When i picture it in my mind I laugh. CJSA Sangat High school aged girls come to me every year asking for a letter for exemption from mandatory swimming at High School based on religous grounds. Now the situation is lot of people have rural background and did not introduce swimming at a young age and when they are in High School they are too shy to be in swim suit with the whole class. Do you realize that Swimming pool at Gurduara Sahib how many problems it will create ? liabilities ...... a big NO is my answer. I have two daughters and they both take swim lessons and i started them when they were 4 years old.

There are Swimming pools, Basketball courts, youth counselling, recreation halls and psychological help available to us because we are Tax paying citizens of this country.

A place for retired people where they can come in the morning, have langar, play board games and then can go home in the evening. It should also have free medical clinics where volunteer doctors can pitch in. It should also have bhangra and gidda contests with different Gurdwaras.

This is more like a Community Center - there is a lot of talk going about this for a while. But my suggestion is this should not be affiliated with Gurduara Sahib as there will be conflict of interest. Giddha and Bhangra is not Gursikh's jeevan.

To be able to do all this, the Gurdwara needs funds. So, I am fine with it having a banquet hall in the premises which can be rented to the Sikhs and to all different kinds of people as long as they follow the protocols laid by each Gurdwara.

Banquet Hall at Gurduara Sahib is a Big NO. Conflict of interest! this discussion started because of this problem - banquet hall.

I do not know whether you are aware of it or not that many Gurdwaras started renting Sunday places and no one questioned if someone had had a booze party there the night before.

Gurduara Sahib is a sacred place. Booze party at Gurduara Sahib the night before sounds more like a typical Punjabi home - in the morning Kirtan/BHOG ceremony - in the evening Booze party!

i will follow up on this more later. I have to leave now

Bhul Chuk Maaf!
Harjot Singh

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