It's a way of pulling my mind closer to guru ji.
Hello! I don't want to sound racist or anything but as an Englishman I find the caste system and turban colour rules absolutely incredible. This is because in the boom years of the 1960's I was working in London at an electronics factory. In the metal workshops there was a lathe operator with a turban (Health & Safety was not so hot in those days but nowadays elastic nets are supposed to be used). Another man with a different coloured turban was interviewed for a vacancy and was offered the job. He was then shown round the workplace before making his final decision. He saw the man with the different coloured turban (one was orange and one was green) then asked the interviewer if he would be paid more than the lathe operator. The answer was no because the lathe operator was highly skilled and had worked there for several years. The new man claimed to be of a higher caste than the lathe operator and because of this he wanted more money! His demand for more money was refused so he turned down the job! Amazing really to refuse a good steady job because someone else has is wearing a different coloured turban. Nowt as queer as folk! :rofl!!:
Davey1000 ji
Turban color and caste have nothing to do one with the other. One of the men may have guessed the caste of the other man using some other clue. Turban color can be associated with a faction or sect within Sikhi -- Nihangs wear blue, Nirmali wear white, but anyone can wear blue or white and not be a Nihang or a Nirmali.
Turban color and caste have nothing to do one with the other. One of the men may have guessed the caste of the other man using some other clue. Turban color can be associated with a faction or sect within Sikhi -- Nihangs wear blue, Nirmali wear white, but anyone can wear blue or white and not be a Nihang or a Nirmali.
Thank you for the explanation although I will always find such things incomprehensible. I guess that the caste system must be a bit like freemasonry (which has several ranks) From what I can gather the system is a bit like a chain letter but the chances of apprentices rising to the top is rather slim unless they are very well connected. IMHO such organisations are little more than nepotism clubs.
Best regards from David
Best regards from David
Davey ji
The caste system as an historical fact in India was and to some extent today is much more than a club. Freemasonry, by the way, is an ancient secret society whose members seek to be initiated at increasing levels of secret knowledge and understanding. A simplistic description because I want to move onto the caste system.
The caste system in India is thousands of years old. It has been historically a religious, political, social and economic structure around which the lives of the population were organized and ordered. The origins of the caste system rise with the Law of Manu, who may have been a mythological character, but many consider him to be a fact in history. Manu wrote or issued a code for social organization that included many traditions and practices, including the caste system. These practices that regulated life in India, up to the present. The caste system was outlawed after the liberation, and I believe the year was 1950.
One's caste (or rather varna) was a marker of one's spiritual identity and level of development as well social identity. Individual souls took rebirth to master moral and spiritual lessons in one lifetime, and then to be then reborn into the same caste, again and again, until all the lessons were learned and all the spiritual debts were paid. Caste and reincarnation are indistinguishable in a strict understanding of the Law of Manu. So souls reincarnated through levels continually. Caste kept reincarnation organized so that the lesson of one caste -- humility for untouchables - would be distinguishable from lessons assigned to other castes. And certain religious experiences were forbidden to lower castes because their souls were believed to be unsuited. For example, if an untouchable were caught reciting the vedas he/she would be put to death. Similarly certain economic activities were forbidden to members of various castes. Brahmins could do x or y, but not z. And so forth.
All of the Sikh Gurus were members of the Khashtri varna or caste of warriors and business men. Many of the Gurus' followers were members of the Jaat varna, famers and craftsmen. In fact the word "jaat" in Gurbani has been translated to mean "caste" and to mean "status." And there is a lot of historical information and cultural lore surrounding the contributions of the Jaat varna to the spread of Sikhi.
What does this have to do with Sikhi? Well there are many Sikhs in India who can trace their family lineages back in some cases more than 1000 years, to a time before the Sikh gurus. The historical memory of one's caste dies hard. Why? Because with caste comes one's sense of clan, family and personal identity. People simply do not shed their cultural memories at one stroke of the clock, and then change over night -- because with culture comes a sense of identity and place in the world. Sikhism decries the caste system. Yet people cling when there is no longer any logical reason to continue with political, social, and economic structures that regulated life when conditions were very different. So when Guru Nanak united the Jats and Khashtri's, and when he declared there is no Hindu no Muslim, he made a lot of sense. To the people listening at the time Nanak's message was a message of liberation from injustices and oppression of the past. Unfortunately someone can unlock the door to our prison cells. But we are the ones who must decide to walk through the door and out of the prison.
Please do not be hard on Sikhs because of what you have observed. Many of us have accepted the path to liberation given us by Nanak. Others know better, but have not made the choice. And individuals among the Sikhs are not alone in persisting with obsolete and oppressive traditions. Look around you.
The caste system as an historical fact in India was and to some extent today is much more than a club. Freemasonry, by the way, is an ancient secret society whose members seek to be initiated at increasing levels of secret knowledge and understanding. A simplistic description because I want to move onto the caste system.
The caste system in India is thousands of years old. It has been historically a religious, political, social and economic structure around which the lives of the population were organized and ordered. The origins of the caste system rise with the Law of Manu, who may have been a mythological character, but many consider him to be a fact in history. Manu wrote or issued a code for social organization that included many traditions and practices, including the caste system. These practices that regulated life in India, up to the present. The caste system was outlawed after the liberation, and I believe the year was 1950.
One's caste (or rather varna) was a marker of one's spiritual identity and level of development as well social identity. Individual souls took rebirth to master moral and spiritual lessons in one lifetime, and then to be then reborn into the same caste, again and again, until all the lessons were learned and all the spiritual debts were paid. Caste and reincarnation are indistinguishable in a strict understanding of the Law of Manu. So souls reincarnated through levels continually. Caste kept reincarnation organized so that the lesson of one caste -- humility for untouchables - would be distinguishable from lessons assigned to other castes. And certain religious experiences were forbidden to lower castes because their souls were believed to be unsuited. For example, if an untouchable were caught reciting the vedas he/she would be put to death. Similarly certain economic activities were forbidden to members of various castes. Brahmins could do x or y, but not z. And so forth.
All of the Sikh Gurus were members of the Khashtri varna or caste of warriors and business men. Many of the Gurus' followers were members of the Jaat varna, famers and craftsmen. In fact the word "jaat" in Gurbani has been translated to mean "caste" and to mean "status." And there is a lot of historical information and cultural lore surrounding the contributions of the Jaat varna to the spread of Sikhi.
What does this have to do with Sikhi? Well there are many Sikhs in India who can trace their family lineages back in some cases more than 1000 years, to a time before the Sikh gurus. The historical memory of one's caste dies hard. Why? Because with caste comes one's sense of clan, family and personal identity. People simply do not shed their cultural memories at one stroke of the clock, and then change over night -- because with culture comes a sense of identity and place in the world. Sikhism decries the caste system. Yet people cling when there is no longer any logical reason to continue with political, social, and economic structures that regulated life when conditions were very different. So when Guru Nanak united the Jats and Khashtri's, and when he declared there is no Hindu no Muslim, he made a lot of sense. To the people listening at the time Nanak's message was a message of liberation from injustices and oppression of the past. Unfortunately someone can unlock the door to our prison cells. But we are the ones who must decide to walk through the door and out of the prison.
Please do not be hard on Sikhs because of what you have observed. Many of us have accepted the path to liberation given us by Nanak. Others know better, but have not made the choice. And individuals among the Sikhs are not alone in persisting with obsolete and oppressive traditions. Look around you.
- Feb 14, 2006
- 512
- 31
Nirmalas were kesri generally.
The four traditional Khalsa colors are:
Kesri - holiness, dedication to God, sacrifice
Blue - Royalty
White - purity
Black - protest, morcha
Mahant Ram Singh is shown on the left. He is the current spiritual head of the Nirmala sect.
Red is traditionally worn for weddings. Sikh can wear any color of turban he likes. But outside of anand karaj, red is considered a sensual color and not often seen. Amritdharis often try to wear the traditional Khalsa colors because they have symbolic meaning to the Khalsa. Oftentimes amritdharis will wear keshri keski (under turban). Gurmat Gursikh Amritdharis will not wear red to anand karaj, but usually Khalsa neela. Like a military which has it's own separate colors to identify itself, the Khalsa has purataan Khalsa colors.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bhenji, Thanks for the correction on turban color of Nirmalis. Sorrowfully, I am going to have to edit your comment because the picture of the Nihangs AKJ's is so big it makes the window larger than one's computer screen.
Correction made.
Correction made.
- Feb 14, 2006
- 512
- 31
Those aren't Nihangs bhenji, that's AKJ.
futurekaur
SPNer
Harjas ji;
I was wondering if the wedding couple were AKJ; thanks for the photo. What a beautiful couple. Does AKJ wear bana all the time? I think the kaur's big turban is terrrific, I see they don't wear a scarf over it either
I was wondering if the wedding couple were AKJ; thanks for the photo. What a beautiful couple. Does AKJ wear bana all the time? I think the kaur's big turban is terrrific, I see they don't wear a scarf over it either
- Feb 14, 2006
- 512
- 31
Yes, AKJ prefer to wear bana all the time, but this is an individual choice. The Jatha promotes Khalsa bana and strict Rehit. The large dumalla is traditional, lots of AKJ women wear chunni over keski. Some women tie dumalla. Some just wear keski. The AKJ Rehit stipulates that Keski, and not Kes is one of the panj kakkars. And the rationale is that keeping uncut Hair is your Sikh identity, your bond with Guruji. To cut the kes make you patit. When you take amrit, you promise to wear on your person kara, kacchera, kangha, kirpan and keski. If you remove an article of faith, it is negative, but sometimes necessary such as going to an airport but not in itself a bujjar kurehit like removing kes. So, AKJ believes every amritdhari, male or female must wear keski. Dumalla is the traditional battlefield dastaar, and because Singhnis are the spiritual equal of Singhs and have traditionally fought in wars, female can also wear dumalla. The Singh is looking to marry his Singhni, not just his wife.
futurekaur
SPNer
Harjas ji;
thanks so much for explaining. I knew that AJK had their own rehit but not the keski, stitpulation. I knew dumalla as a turban style but didn't know it was battle dress, that gives so much depth to understanding. Also the Singh marrying his Singhni - powerful! and beautiful.
thanks so much for explaining. I knew that AJK had their own rehit but not the keski, stitpulation. I knew dumalla as a turban style but didn't know it was battle dress, that gives so much depth to understanding. Also the Singh marrying his Singhni - powerful! and beautiful.
Ulitmately the colour of your Turban is irrelevant but what is the most inportant is that the turban is there on your head, The turban is neatly tied and that you are proud to wear your turban on your head to identify yourselve AS A SIKH OF THE GURU'S , Although myself i prefer black for practical reasons at work as my job involves a lot cwarling over, under and in amongst the inards od railway locomotives and rolling stock and in a job like that you will trash a turban or get it covered in oil and grease etc that is why i keep spare turbans at work
Archived_member3
SPNer
AKJ members display the most beautiful garments
drkhalsa
SPNer
- Sep 16, 2004
- 1,308
- 54
Red is very Coomon colors for young peopel in India Atleast and Red Turban has always bee part of my Wardrobe since I started wearing Turban some 16 years ago
So I think this all good color bad color stuff is very Regional kind of thing and I do respect emotions of people related to Different colors carried by groups like AKJ and Nihang But to me they all the same
- Feb 14, 2006
- 512
- 31
ਰਤਾ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਤਾ ਸੁਪੇਦੀ ਸਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
rathaa painan man rathaa supaedhee sath dhaan ||
My mind is imbued with the Lord's Love; it is dyed a deep crimson. Truth and charity are my white clothes.
ਨੀਲੀ ਸਿਆਹੀ ਕਦਾ ਕਰਣੀ ਪਹਿਰਣੁ ਪੈਰ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
neelee siaahee kadhaa karanee pehiran pair dhhiaan ||
The blackness of sin is erased by my wearing of blue clothes, and meditation on the Lord's Lotus Feet is my robe of honor.
~SGGS Ji p. 16
Well crimson or reddish is talked about in Gurbani as associated with Divine Love, so it is not at all negative.
Jios,
Turbans on the Rate My Turban site come in every color and style.
You can try this link to make a decision:
Turbanizer.com - Ever Wondered What You Looked Like In A TURBAN?
----------------------------------------------------
To visit Rate My Turban, go here Rate My Turban
Turbans on the Rate My Turban site come in every color and style.
You can try this link to make a decision:
Turbanizer.com - Ever Wondered What You Looked Like In A TURBAN?
----------------------------------------------------
To visit Rate My Turban, go here Rate My Turban
futurekaur
SPNer
All right I admit it, I had fun with the turbanizer;-) I thought red was for weddings, or is that just women's clothing?
futurekaur ji
Red is traditional for a woman's wedding dress. However, anyone can wear red any time. The traditional red wedding garments for a women, are not just red, but they are embroidered richly with gold and sliver thread in Persian embroidery, making them very de luxe! The shades of red are also deep crimsons to purplish reds. I have also seen deep blue and richly embroidered wedding salwar kameez too!
Men wear red turbans often far as I can tell from gurdwara and from photos.
Which turban did you like best. I tried them all on and decided that the rajasthani turban was the one for me. But in light colors. The bold prints on the turbanizer have a little bit too 1970's flower child look. How shameless of me. How stuck in Maya! But Maya is fun sometimes.:yes:
Red is traditional for a woman's wedding dress. However, anyone can wear red any time. The traditional red wedding garments for a women, are not just red, but they are embroidered richly with gold and sliver thread in Persian embroidery, making them very de luxe! The shades of red are also deep crimsons to purplish reds. I have also seen deep blue and richly embroidered wedding salwar kameez too!
Men wear red turbans often far as I can tell from gurdwara and from photos.
Which turban did you like best. I tried them all on and decided that the rajasthani turban was the one for me. But in light colors. The bold prints on the turbanizer have a little bit too 1970's flower child look. How shameless of me. How stuck in Maya! But Maya is fun sometimes.:yes:
futurekaur
SPNer
Aad ji;
thanks for the info about wedding clothes. Deep blue wedding salwar kameez, now that's a nice surprise.
I tried every single turban on too. My favorite was punjabi black. Very elegant & distinguished. Pinky & white with the gold streak were nice. I think because the punjabi style is round & I have red hair, the black looked the best. I loved the canadian but it wore me;-) It is maya & a game, but at the same time if it takes any kind of 'fear' or anxiety away about wearing a turban then that is a great thing.
A chand pin too is a good idea, it distinguishes sikhs & also gives a polite talking point for a person.
thanks for the info about wedding clothes. Deep blue wedding salwar kameez, now that's a nice surprise.
I tried every single turban on too. My favorite was punjabi black. Very elegant & distinguished. Pinky & white with the gold streak were nice. I think because the punjabi style is round & I have red hair, the black looked the best. I loved the canadian but it wore me;-) It is maya & a game, but at the same time if it takes any kind of 'fear' or anxiety away about wearing a turban then that is a great thing.
A chand pin too is a good idea, it distinguishes sikhs & also gives a polite talking point for a person.
❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM
❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM
