Triah Charitar. GurooBani Or Not?
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Critical Singh
SPNer
What is so contraversial about Triah Chritar ? Any clues ??
vijaydeep Singh
SPNer
Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki FatehIn treya charitar there are about 405 charectors depicted by varoius stories in Dasham Granth Ji. Even later 10 Hiqayats of Jaffernamaah also had similar stories but in farsi.(in farsi short story means hiqayat while in jaffernamaha it is more to do with chapters. Present day jaffernammah in market is only chapter one.
Coming back to treya charitar,As per old socilaogy of india man has 5types of charectors while women has 400.So here too we have total 405 Charitar.Das did see Purush or man chaerctors in some stories but could not count that all are 5.
Before judging it if it is as per Gurmat or not.Das recomends you to read them as interpreted by Dr Jodh Singh.(its Hindi,Devnagri version with explanation(like the one of Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Prof Sahib Singh Ji) Could be obtained from Jeewan Singh book sellers,Kucha Jatt Mall,Dariba Kala,chandni Chowk,Delhi(very near Gurudwara Sis Ganj Sahib Ji) or may be online store of Bhai Chatter Singh Jeevan Singh Amritsar can help,Publishers are bhuvan vani trust,Mausam Bagh ,Lukhnow(Das can be a bit wrong with address of lucknow)).
Comong back to the main point. In treya Charitar language use is bit more explcit as far as issue realted to man -women realtionship are concerned.May be that could be the stryle of that era or As Dr Jodh Singh Ji wrote,They were written to make warriers morally strong as they must not fall in honey traps(in modern warfare enemy often employs female to enable the defaction of solders from opponent side. orto eliminate them,Vishkanya or poisonous women may not be myth as such ladies after gainsing the confidance of Kings or fighter may be killing them.)
But das think on more thing. Often stories related to Treya charitar has an element of miracle or pir or god(like shiva) related to them.
Example,a lady kills her husband(who is old) and brings in her lover and fools the public successfully by saying that last night she got a blessing from Shivji or Peer that his old husband will be young again and this guy(her lover) is the same old husband.
So it is a more of satire on superstitions prevelents in hindus and muslims of that era and Khalsa is told to not to have faith in them but in Akal(se charitar 266 Rankham kala).
Coming back to treya charitar,As per old socilaogy of india man has 5types of charectors while women has 400.So here too we have total 405 Charitar.Das did see Purush or man chaerctors in some stories but could not count that all are 5.
Before judging it if it is as per Gurmat or not.Das recomends you to read them as interpreted by Dr Jodh Singh.(its Hindi,Devnagri version with explanation(like the one of Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Prof Sahib Singh Ji) Could be obtained from Jeewan Singh book sellers,Kucha Jatt Mall,Dariba Kala,chandni Chowk,Delhi(very near Gurudwara Sis Ganj Sahib Ji) or may be online store of Bhai Chatter Singh Jeevan Singh Amritsar can help,Publishers are bhuvan vani trust,Mausam Bagh ,Lukhnow(Das can be a bit wrong with address of lucknow)).
Comong back to the main point. In treya Charitar language use is bit more explcit as far as issue realted to man -women realtionship are concerned.May be that could be the stryle of that era or As Dr Jodh Singh Ji wrote,They were written to make warriers morally strong as they must not fall in honey traps(in modern warfare enemy often employs female to enable the defaction of solders from opponent side. orto eliminate them,Vishkanya or poisonous women may not be myth as such ladies after gainsing the confidance of Kings or fighter may be killing them.)
But das think on more thing. Often stories related to Treya charitar has an element of miracle or pir or god(like shiva) related to them.
Example,a lady kills her husband(who is old) and brings in her lover and fools the public successfully by saying that last night she got a blessing from Shivji or Peer that his old husband will be young again and this guy(her lover) is the same old husband.
So it is a more of satire on superstitions prevelents in hindus and muslims of that era and Khalsa is told to not to have faith in them but in Akal(se charitar 266 Rankham kala).
BabbarSher
SPNer
Dear VijayDeep Singh:
I have read many of your posts her and at SGPC.net and there is one commonaility in them: sikhi...
Great Job man.. I am really proud of you.
Now coming to the topic at hand.. Veer Ji, I do not belive that Guru Maharj believed in the typical Indian traditions on the character types of men and women.
For Guru Maharaj advocated the concept of Khalsa, coming into whose folds...all previous things get dissolved..
Moreover this concept that Men have 5 characters and women 400 does not seemt o stand any scientific test. Men can be as connivving if not more than women ..
Many of the serial killers .. have been men.. with chracters so diverse that they cannot fall into the category of 5 or 400.
The language of Treah Charitar is also very graphic..which itself lends to mean that this is not Gurbani as it cannot be read in a full congregation.
Akal Sahai
I have read many of your posts her and at SGPC.net and there is one commonaility in them: sikhi...
Great Job man.. I am really proud of you.
Now coming to the topic at hand.. Veer Ji, I do not belive that Guru Maharj believed in the typical Indian traditions on the character types of men and women.
For Guru Maharaj advocated the concept of Khalsa, coming into whose folds...all previous things get dissolved..
Moreover this concept that Men have 5 characters and women 400 does not seemt o stand any scientific test. Men can be as connivving if not more than women ..
Many of the serial killers .. have been men.. with chracters so diverse that they cannot fall into the category of 5 or 400.
The language of Treah Charitar is also very graphic..which itself lends to mean that this is not Gurbani as it cannot be read in a full congregation.
Akal Sahai
vijaydeep Singh
SPNer
Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
correct brother!
Das has not said that he says that whole of the Dasham Granth is written by Tenth Master but it is often written in the same Granth that in few veres as kavi Shyam or Poet Shyam,Das here differ even from the groups of Nihungs to whom he is related,they say Shyam is pen name of Gurudev while Das knows that out of 52 poets of the courts Shyam was one.
So in fact whole Bani is not by Gurudev but still Das feels that it is per Gurmat,First Story is of a queen,Whose is taken into custody by prince of another state after defeating her state.She trys avenge her defeat by complaining to his father king that prince has outraged her modesty(this thing actually happened when doughter of Brahmin king of Sind Dahher sen,were sent to the harem of Khalifa Hajjam by Mohmud bin Kasim,who defeated there father Dahir,They told Khalifa that Kasim had done wrong with them,Khalifa ordered skin of kasim to be sewed with the hide of ox.By this Kasim died,When this thing ladies learnt they told Khalifa that they lied and they committed suicide(refer Veer Balikain(Brave girls,Gita press Gorakhpur).
Coming Back to the story of Triya charitar,then does minister of king in our story in order to prove the innocence of prince tells that this lady should not be trusted and remaining 404 stories are told. Last of them we have choupai Sahib of Nit Neem and Ardass(Hamri Karo Hath De Rachha...). Here too Das wants to say that at last story there is a fight between Nirankar and Demons,when das told thid thing to his muslim buddy he said similar is written in fights of Hazrat Ali with Habshis(negros).
Regarding the first story we are given a clear message,Never enslave female folk in war else you will in trouble. There we have stories of King Brithari then a story of Samba Ji Raje,son of Shiva Ji,In his story(rember that he was killed during the life time of Guru Ji), It is told that he was of bad charector,Keeps a bad eye on a Brahmin girl,who in turn gets him cought by Moghuls. So here girl is a heroine and not vamp,There are still many stories where they are portrayed as good.
So even if not they are written by Gurudev,Yet they can be said to be at par with Gurmat.Bible in first edition had many sismilar phase,12 editions have slowly rectified them or changed the meaning. But Gurmat does not allow this.
So Das only beg to you all to read them first,and then if you say it is not per Gurmat then Das has no problem. After all in Panth,it is Khalsa that matters.People like Das find grace in the feet of Khalsa.Only thing is explanations by Dr Jodh Singh are correct.
Sangh Parivar etc. have not studied it correctly and only by names of Krishan Avtar or other gods revered by hindus jumped on the conclusions that it is as per Hinduism.One hindu from Bajrang Dal(Das too is supporter of of Saverkerite movement of Hindu resurgence),when read Dasham Granth he,thought that Gurudev Ji are Anti Hindu.Fact is Gurudev anti hinduism,so in trya charitar too,there are many,anti Hinduism and anti Islam facts written.
And of Dasham Granth like Guru Granth Sahib Ji more then one copies are in circulation.Like Khari Beer(origional beer is at Gurudwara Bhai Bannu,kanpur) we have interpolated verses like that of Meera Bai,so Beers of Patna Sahib as well as of Moga of Dasham Granth Ji too have interploted verses. Patna Sahib beer has verses of chhake Bhagwati(Das is forgetting a bit name of them),Which are misinterprted by Hindutva people. But offical one is Bhai Mani Singh version.
In this only one verse from treya charitar Das finds a bit unlikly as per Gurmat,It is repeated as perhaps in Ramchariter Manas,
Women after being created by God even put God in surprise.
This as per Gurmat means Gods Manifestation as women made God's manifestation as creator a bit surprised an God's own creation.
like often someone is surprised after doing a job greater then expectation.
At last Das repeats,Before judging(as you,the Panth is the real judge),do read and understand whole Dasham Granth.Just by reviews or name of the chapeters are insufficeint.And your decision is ,what is called in Punjabi,"sir Mathhe te" ie it will have be our honur to respect the decision of fellow Khalsa.
correct brother!
Das has not said that he says that whole of the Dasham Granth is written by Tenth Master but it is often written in the same Granth that in few veres as kavi Shyam or Poet Shyam,Das here differ even from the groups of Nihungs to whom he is related,they say Shyam is pen name of Gurudev while Das knows that out of 52 poets of the courts Shyam was one.
So in fact whole Bani is not by Gurudev but still Das feels that it is per Gurmat,First Story is of a queen,Whose is taken into custody by prince of another state after defeating her state.She trys avenge her defeat by complaining to his father king that prince has outraged her modesty(this thing actually happened when doughter of Brahmin king of Sind Dahher sen,were sent to the harem of Khalifa Hajjam by Mohmud bin Kasim,who defeated there father Dahir,They told Khalifa that Kasim had done wrong with them,Khalifa ordered skin of kasim to be sewed with the hide of ox.By this Kasim died,When this thing ladies learnt they told Khalifa that they lied and they committed suicide(refer Veer Balikain(Brave girls,Gita press Gorakhpur).
Coming Back to the story of Triya charitar,then does minister of king in our story in order to prove the innocence of prince tells that this lady should not be trusted and remaining 404 stories are told. Last of them we have choupai Sahib of Nit Neem and Ardass(Hamri Karo Hath De Rachha...). Here too Das wants to say that at last story there is a fight between Nirankar and Demons,when das told thid thing to his muslim buddy he said similar is written in fights of Hazrat Ali with Habshis(negros).
Regarding the first story we are given a clear message,Never enslave female folk in war else you will in trouble. There we have stories of King Brithari then a story of Samba Ji Raje,son of Shiva Ji,In his story(rember that he was killed during the life time of Guru Ji), It is told that he was of bad charector,Keeps a bad eye on a Brahmin girl,who in turn gets him cought by Moghuls. So here girl is a heroine and not vamp,There are still many stories where they are portrayed as good.
So even if not they are written by Gurudev,Yet they can be said to be at par with Gurmat.Bible in first edition had many sismilar phase,12 editions have slowly rectified them or changed the meaning. But Gurmat does not allow this.
So Das only beg to you all to read them first,and then if you say it is not per Gurmat then Das has no problem. After all in Panth,it is Khalsa that matters.People like Das find grace in the feet of Khalsa.Only thing is explanations by Dr Jodh Singh are correct.
Sangh Parivar etc. have not studied it correctly and only by names of Krishan Avtar or other gods revered by hindus jumped on the conclusions that it is as per Hinduism.One hindu from Bajrang Dal(Das too is supporter of of Saverkerite movement of Hindu resurgence),when read Dasham Granth he,thought that Gurudev Ji are Anti Hindu.Fact is Gurudev anti hinduism,so in trya charitar too,there are many,anti Hinduism and anti Islam facts written.
And of Dasham Granth like Guru Granth Sahib Ji more then one copies are in circulation.Like Khari Beer(origional beer is at Gurudwara Bhai Bannu,kanpur) we have interpolated verses like that of Meera Bai,so Beers of Patna Sahib as well as of Moga of Dasham Granth Ji too have interploted verses. Patna Sahib beer has verses of chhake Bhagwati(Das is forgetting a bit name of them),Which are misinterprted by Hindutva people. But offical one is Bhai Mani Singh version.
In this only one verse from treya charitar Das finds a bit unlikly as per Gurmat,It is repeated as perhaps in Ramchariter Manas,
Women after being created by God even put God in surprise.
This as per Gurmat means Gods Manifestation as women made God's manifestation as creator a bit surprised an God's own creation.
like often someone is surprised after doing a job greater then expectation.
At last Das repeats,Before judging(as you,the Panth is the real judge),do read and understand whole Dasham Granth.Just by reviews or name of the chapeters are insufficeint.And your decision is ,what is called in Punjabi,"sir Mathhe te" ie it will have be our honur to respect the decision of fellow Khalsa.
BabbarSher
SPNer
Agreed Brother.
Actually I have had long ranging discussions on this topic elsewhere. I am sure some people will vouch on that.
I cannot vouch having read all of the stories, but I have read a whole lot of them.
Thanks for the elaborations on the various stories. I have a PDF file which highlights the various 'issues; with Treah Charitar being termed as Gurbaani.
I would like to send it across to you so thatyou can have a look for urself. We can later discuss the matter in further detail.
As you agree, it is not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. If it is not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, I belive it cannot be treated as Gurbaani, as the Panth has only accorded the status of Gurbaani to the Baani of Bhai Gurdas Ji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji.
Further, I agree that in some cases (stories), one may be able to get a moral, yet there are an equal number of stories, which do not stress upon anything yet reman open ended.
Also, I wonder why these stories could not be told in a less graphic manner. There is almost nothing which cannot be told in a toned down language - including sex. Thats what differentaites sexual education from pornography.
Now regarding the first story, the moral you have drawn is not to ever take female captives as this may lead to trouble. However VeerJi, such a moral for the khalsa would not stand ..because the Khalsa is anyway supposed to lok at all other females except for one's spouse as sister, mother and daugther (and vice a versa for our sisters).
I have more to say, but I believe (and I think it would also be unfair) that I should send you the PDF file first so that you can go through it first.
Awaiting your email address.
Akal Sahai
Actually I have had long ranging discussions on this topic elsewhere. I am sure some people will vouch on that
.I cannot vouch having read all of the stories, but I have read a whole lot of them.
Thanks for the elaborations on the various stories. I have a PDF file which highlights the various 'issues; with Treah Charitar being termed as Gurbaani.
I would like to send it across to you so thatyou can have a look for urself. We can later discuss the matter in further detail.
As you agree, it is not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. If it is not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, I belive it cannot be treated as Gurbaani, as the Panth has only accorded the status of Gurbaani to the Baani of Bhai Gurdas Ji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji.
Further, I agree that in some cases (stories), one may be able to get a moral, yet there are an equal number of stories, which do not stress upon anything yet reman open ended.
Also, I wonder why these stories could not be told in a less graphic manner. There is almost nothing which cannot be told in a toned down language - including sex. Thats what differentaites sexual education from pornography.
Now regarding the first story, the moral you have drawn is not to ever take female captives as this may lead to trouble. However VeerJi, such a moral for the khalsa would not stand ..because the Khalsa is anyway supposed to lok at all other females except for one's spouse as sister, mother and daugther (and vice a versa for our sisters).
I have more to say, but I believe (and I think it would also be unfair) that I should send you the PDF file first so that you can go through it first.
Awaiting your email address.
Akal Sahai
vijaydeep Singh
SPNer
Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Das has sent the email id to brother Babar Sher Ji
Regarding not taking the female as hostage das gives you a story taken from Sau Sakhi,Even Sikh missionary Collage ,Ludhiana has taken a verse from it.
once muslims of hoshiyarpur kidnapped wife of a Brahmin,He came to the court of Anandpur Sahib and asked for help from Gurudev.
A platoon was sent with elder Sahibzada as a comander. Some Sikhs from the Army afer acomplishing the mission also took perhaps 2 muslim female with them.
Gurudev asked them ,why did you bring them. They told that as they(Muslim) do with hindu female(Bhogna or having senusal pleasure) why cannot we do the same with muslims.
Gurudev said Mohamud made a creed of ghost. I created you to be uplifted and not go dowen. From today Judh(making love) with turkani(muslim female) is forbiddan.Later on it was made a Maryada for adultary as a sin.
Off course those muslim pow were released with honuoerd.
As per holy kuran anyway enslaving and even forceing your self on Pow (prisoners of war)female is allowed.Even God of mosess in old teasment tells him.1st you will warn them before attacking,If they do not surrender,and are defeated later,Kill all below 17 years. and utlise all they have left(including yuong ones and female). (deutrinomy).so when pakis wireless indian army people to surrender before real war or what bin laden tells to Bush or Blair ,To give up it is not an efforet for piece but an age old ritual.
Coming Back to Trya Chariteras. Often das sees Sikh people longing For Chankaya in them.They say that they were often cheated by plotician from other Faith.Diplomacy and politics is in full in treya charitra.
But chnakya need a brave and motivated person as a companion in the form of Chndra Gupta Maurya who was made the king.
So a Sikh can be a Chankya if he/she understand whole of Dahsam Granth.Sikh by self will be Chandra Gupta maurya if he/she understands the Sarbloh Granth(this one has ragas or tune which make a mind by will of Akal permanently motivated as politics or diplomacy make us to think a lot but a person who keeps on thinking may not act in time).
As whole world is a manifestaion of Akal.In Good and in Bad only God who is God exists so nothing is Bad.Sikhs were also made to rule and let there subjects be served to the best by the rulers. So rulers(soldiers) who were Godly(sants) knowing other side of the coin is essential,If we know it we will not be curious as often curiousty like that of a deer to saound of drum traps it so thus our same feeling could entrap us in lust(kama).That s why these stories were made.
In Akalustat(only for some verses where Akal is termed as killer of Mahishsura and some of our schoolars have taken it to be mother goddess of hindu,which is incorrect as Gurudev wanted us belive that evil was ended by God and not the godess.)There are most verse other then mentioned in braket which are termed as written by Gurudev by all schoolars.
Some as follow.
Kahu bed bani <someh where in the voice of holy scripture(Vedas are oldest for mankind not only for hindus) >
Kahu Kok Ki Kahani<some where in the story of pronography(Kok Shastra is the education related to pleasure obtained by man and woman realtion)>
Kahu Raja Kahu Rani<some where king,some where queen>
Kahu Naar Ke Prakar ho<(oh Lord) Some hwere you are the type of human females>
As Akal is in all.In such things which usualy hindu or muslim or christian will hate.But unlike them who see Akal from one view point we need to Understand Akal from all atributes and Aspect(in fact all such thing which exists are false without Akal) as we need to be like Akal,one with Akal so we need to know Akal in totality.So by mercy of Akal we got many books from Gurmat.
As far as our code is concerned ,we may not dislike the saying of Bulle shah(he said had Tenth Nanak not there all would have been getting circumsenstion) or Kavi Senapati also.
Forguve das if wrong is typed. And Das awaits your emai and attachment.
To get the rule(political power) not only swords are needed but resourcefull brain and motivation too are needed. Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth respectively let Sikhs have. As a ruler Guru Granth Sahib Ji will make us to maintain our morality.
Das has sent the email id to brother Babar Sher Ji
Regarding not taking the female as hostage das gives you a story taken from Sau Sakhi,Even Sikh missionary Collage ,Ludhiana has taken a verse from it.
once muslims of hoshiyarpur kidnapped wife of a Brahmin,He came to the court of Anandpur Sahib and asked for help from Gurudev.
A platoon was sent with elder Sahibzada as a comander. Some Sikhs from the Army afer acomplishing the mission also took perhaps 2 muslim female with them.
Gurudev asked them ,why did you bring them. They told that as they(Muslim) do with hindu female(Bhogna or having senusal pleasure) why cannot we do the same with muslims.
Gurudev said Mohamud made a creed of ghost. I created you to be uplifted and not go dowen. From today Judh(making love) with turkani(muslim female) is forbiddan.Later on it was made a Maryada for adultary as a sin.
Off course those muslim pow were released with honuoerd.
As per holy kuran anyway enslaving and even forceing your self on Pow (prisoners of war)female is allowed.Even God of mosess in old teasment tells him.1st you will warn them before attacking,If they do not surrender,and are defeated later,Kill all below 17 years. and utlise all they have left(including yuong ones and female). (deutrinomy).so when pakis wireless indian army people to surrender before real war or what bin laden tells to Bush or Blair ,To give up it is not an efforet for piece but an age old ritual.
Coming Back to Trya Chariteras. Often das sees Sikh people longing For Chankaya in them.They say that they were often cheated by plotician from other Faith.Diplomacy and politics is in full in treya charitra.
But chnakya need a brave and motivated person as a companion in the form of Chndra Gupta Maurya who was made the king.
So a Sikh can be a Chankya if he/she understand whole of Dahsam Granth.Sikh by self will be Chandra Gupta maurya if he/she understands the Sarbloh Granth(this one has ragas or tune which make a mind by will of Akal permanently motivated as politics or diplomacy make us to think a lot but a person who keeps on thinking may not act in time).
As whole world is a manifestaion of Akal.In Good and in Bad only God who is God exists so nothing is Bad.Sikhs were also made to rule and let there subjects be served to the best by the rulers. So rulers(soldiers) who were Godly(sants) knowing other side of the coin is essential,If we know it we will not be curious as often curiousty like that of a deer to saound of drum traps it so thus our same feeling could entrap us in lust(kama).That s why these stories were made.
In Akalustat(only for some verses where Akal is termed as killer of Mahishsura and some of our schoolars have taken it to be mother goddess of hindu,which is incorrect as Gurudev wanted us belive that evil was ended by God and not the godess.)There are most verse other then mentioned in braket which are termed as written by Gurudev by all schoolars.
Some as follow.
Kahu bed bani <someh where in the voice of holy scripture(Vedas are oldest for mankind not only for hindus) >
Kahu Kok Ki Kahani<some where in the story of pronography(Kok Shastra is the education related to pleasure obtained by man and woman realtion)>
Kahu Raja Kahu Rani<some where king,some where queen>
Kahu Naar Ke Prakar ho<(oh Lord) Some hwere you are the type of human females>
As Akal is in all.In such things which usualy hindu or muslim or christian will hate.But unlike them who see Akal from one view point we need to Understand Akal from all atributes and Aspect(in fact all such thing which exists are false without Akal) as we need to be like Akal,one with Akal so we need to know Akal in totality.So by mercy of Akal we got many books from Gurmat.
As far as our code is concerned ,we may not dislike the saying of Bulle shah(he said had Tenth Nanak not there all would have been getting circumsenstion) or Kavi Senapati also.
Forguve das if wrong is typed. And Das awaits your emai and attachment.
To get the rule(political power) not only swords are needed but resourcefull brain and motivation too are needed. Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth respectively let Sikhs have. As a ruler Guru Granth Sahib Ji will make us to maintain our morality.
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