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Sikhi Thousand Lives Of Reincarnating Minds

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Sikhi Thousand Lives Of Reincarnating Minds

RicktheSikh

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It matters naught how many times a word is repeated in the SGGS, reincarnation in this case. The important thing is to see why it is mentioned and in what context. In this particular case, the history shows that even the Hindus who came 100's of years before Guru Nanak were also uneasy with this blind belief of reincarnation in the cul de sac of life.
The fact is that if one is spiritually poor because of the caste system, reincarnation has been the weapon to be used as a curse by the stiff upper lip honchos of Hinduism against those who were designated as low castes hence poor spiritually and shall remain so for many lives to come as per the belief.
In other words, reincarnation has been used in India to suppress even more the suppressed.
Yes, I agree that the number of times a word is mentioned doesn't matter and that context is key. Like I said to Harry ji, in the contexts that i have read so far, reincarnation is not flatly rejected as false. The caste system is the thing that is rejected, not the belief in reincarnation. I don't infer any uneasiness on the part of Bhagat Trilochan with the concept of reincarnation in the shabad I posted. I don't infer uneasiness with the concept on the part of Guru ji when we are told how to escape the cycle.

I realize that belief in reincarnation throws a wrench in the idea of absolute nonduality. How can the One Source of All be the only thing that truly exists if we are bound by our past actions and reborn 8.4 million times? This is still not clear to me. Perhaps we are in some sort of in-between state, and we only escape this state once we begin on the path of realizing oneness? I don't know. I'll think about it. I'm still green. It will become clearer with time.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Yes, I agree that the number of times a word is mentioned doesn't matter and that context is key. Like I said to Harry ji, in the contexts that i have read so far, reincarnation is not flatly rejected as false. The caste system is the thing that is rejected, not the belief in reincarnation. I don't infer any uneasiness on the part of Bhagat Trilochan with the concept of reincarnation in the shabad I posted. I don't infer uneasiness with the concept on the part of Guru ji when we are told how to escape the cycle.

I realize that belief in reincarnation throws a wrench in the idea of absolute nonduality. How can the One Source of All be the only thing that truly exists if we are bound by our past actions and reborn 8.4 million times? This is still not clear to me. Perhaps we are in some sort of in-between state, and we only escape this state once we begin on the path of realizing oneness? I don't know. I'll think about it. I'm still green. It will become clearer with time.
Ricksinghji,

So do you agree with Bhagat Trilochan that whatever a person thinks of at the last dying moments he/she shall become the same?

Secondly, should reincarnation be a universal phenomenon? Why and or why not?
 

RicktheSikh

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Ricksinghji,

So do you agree with Bhagat Trilochan that whatever a person thinks of at the last dying moments he/she shall become the same?
I can't say for sure, but it would seem that the collection of deeds and misdeeds of that lifetime would carry more weight than a fleeting thought

Secondly, should reincarnation be a universal phenomenon? Why and or why not?
I'm not sure what you mean by universal phenomenon.
 

Tejwant Singh

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I can't say for sure, but it would seem that the collection of deeds and misdeeds of that lifetime would carry more weight than a fleeting thought
Exactly! Hence the answer is in the last verse of his Shabad if it were the case. Having said that, Rahao verse always carries the central message of the Shabad. I am sure you know Rahao means-pause, reflect, think deeper......

I'm not sure what you mean by universal phenomenon.
As the deaths and the deeds are the universal phenomena than no borders can stop the accountability of one's deeds anywhere.
 

RicktheSikh

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As the deaths and the deeds are the universal phenomena than no borders can stop the accountability of one's deeds anywhere.
Except for becoming a gurmukh according to gurbani. The following is from page 131

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ
माझ महला ५ ॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 5.
Maajh, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਜੁਗਤਾ
कउणु सु मुकता कउणु सु जुगता ॥
Ka▫uṇ so mukṯā ka▫uṇ so jugṯā.
Who is liberated, and who is united?

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਬਕਤਾ
कउणु सु गिआनी कउणु सु बकता ॥
Ka▫uṇ so gi▫ānī ka▫uṇ so bakṯā.
Who is a spiritual teacher, and who is a preacher?

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
कउणु सु गिरही कउणु उदासी कउणु सु कीमति पाए जीउ ॥१॥
Ka▫uṇ so girhī ka▫uṇ uḏāsī ka▫uṇ so kīmaṯ pā▫e jī▫o. ||1||
Who is a house-holder, and who is a renunciate? Who can estimate the Lord's Value? ||1||

ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਾਧਾ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਛੂਟਾ
किनि बिधि बाधा किनि बिधि छूटा ॥
Kin biḏẖ bāḏẖā kin biḏẖ cẖẖūtā.
How is one bound, and how is one freed of his bonds?

ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਤੂਟਾ
किनि बिधि आवणु जावणु तूटा ॥
Kin biḏẖ āvaṇ jāvaṇ ṯūtā.
How can one escape from the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation?

ਕਉਣ ਕਰਮ ਕਉਣ ਨਿਹਕਰਮਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਕਹੈ ਕਹਾਏ ਜੀਉ॥੨॥
कउण करम कउण निहकरमा कउणु सु कहै कहाए जीउ ॥२॥
Ka▫uṇ karam ka▫uṇ nihkarmā ka▫uṇ so kahai kahā▫e jī▫o. ||2||
Who is subject to karma, and who is beyond karma? Who chants the Name, and inspires others to chant it? ||2||

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਸੁਖੀਆ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਦੁਖੀਆ
कउणु सु सुखीआ कउणु सु दुखीआ ॥
Ka▫uṇ so sukẖī▫ā ka▫uṇ so ḏukẖī▫ā.
Who is happy, and who is sad?

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਸਨਮੁਖੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਵੇਮੁਖੀਆ
कउणु सु सनमुखु कउणु वेमुखीआ ॥
Ka▫uṇ so sanmukẖ ka▫uṇ vemukẖī▫ā.
Who, as sunmukh, turns toward the Guru, and who, as vaymukh, turns away from the Guru?

ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਛੁਰੈ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
किनि बिधि मिलीऐ किनि बिधि बिछुरै इह बिधि कउणु प्रगटाए जीउ ॥३॥
Kin biḏẖ milī▫ai kin biḏẖ bicẖẖurai ih biḏẖ ka▫uṇ pargatā▫e jī▫o. ||3||
How can one meet the Lord? How is one separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3||

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਤਾ
कउणु सु अखरु जितु धावतु रहता ॥
Ka▫uṇ so akẖar jiṯ ḏẖāvaṯ rahṯā.
What is that Word, by which the wandering mind can be restrained?

ਕਉਣੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਮ ਸਹਤਾ
कउणु उपदेसु जितु दुखु सुखु सम सहता ॥
Ka▫uṇ upḏes jiṯ ḏukẖ sukẖ sam sahṯā.
What are those teachings, by which we may endure pain and pleasure alike?

ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਚਾਲ ਜਿਤੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥
कउणु सु चाल जितु पारब्रहमु धिआए किनि बिधि कीरतनु गाए जीउ ॥४॥
Ka▫uṇ so cẖāl jiṯ pārbarahm ḏẖi▫ā▫e kin biḏẖ kīrṯan gā▫e jī▫o. ||4||
What is that lifestyle, by which we may come to meditate on the Supreme Lord? How may we sing the Kirtan of His Praises? ||4||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ
गुरमुखि मुकता गुरमुखि जुगता ॥
Gurmukẖ mukṯā gurmukẖ jugṯā.
The Gurmukh is liberated, and the Gurmukh is linked.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਕਤਾ
गुरमुखि गिआनी गुरमुखि बकता ॥
Gurmukẖ gi▫ānī gurmukẖ bakṯā.
The Gurmukh is the spiritual teacher, and the Gurmukh is the preacher.

ਧੰਨੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੀਉ॥੫॥
धंनु गिरही उदासी गुरमुखि गुरमुखि कीमति पाए जीउ ॥५॥
Ḏẖan girhī uḏāsī gurmukẖ gurmukẖ kīmaṯ pā▫e jī▫o. ||5||
Blessed is the Gurmukh, the householder and the renunciate. The Gurmukh knows the Lord's Value. ||5||

ਹਉਮੈ ਬਾਧਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਛੂਟਾ
हउमै बाधा गुरमुखि छूटा ॥
Ha▫umai bāḏẖā gurmukẖ cẖẖūtā.
Egotism is bondage; as Gurmukh, one is emancipated.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਤੂਟਾ
गुरमुखि आवणु जावणु तूटा ॥
Gurmukẖ āvaṇ jāvaṇ ṯūtā.
The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਮ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਹਕਰਮਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਸੁਭਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੬॥
गुरमुखि करम गुरमुखि निहकरमा गुरमुखि करे सु सुभाए जीउ ॥६॥
Gurmukẖ karam gurmukẖ nihkarmā gurmukẖ kare so subẖā▫e jī▫o. ||6||
The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma. Whatever the Gurmukh does, is done in good faith. ||6||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖੀਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਦੁਖੀਆ
गुरमुखि सुखीआ मनमुखि दुखीआ ॥
Gurmukẖ sukẖī▫ā manmukẖ ḏukẖī▫ā.
The Gurmukh is happy, while the self-willed manmukh is sad.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਨਮੁਖੁ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਮੁਖੀਆ
गुरमुखि सनमुखु मनमुखि वेमुखीआ ॥
Gurmukẖ sanmukẖ manmukẖ vemukẖī▫ā.
The Gurmukh turns toward the Guru, and the self-willed manmukh turns away from the Guru.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਛੁਰੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੭॥
गुरमुखि मिलीऐ मनमुखि विछुरै गुरमुखि बिधि प्रगटाए जीउ ॥७॥
Gurmukẖ milī▫ai manmukẖ vicẖẖurai gurmukẖ biḏẖ pargatā▫e jī▫o. ||7||
The Gurmukh is united with the Lord, while the manmukh is separated from Him. The Gurmukh reveals the way. ||7||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਖਰੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਤਾ
गुरमुखि अखरु जितु धावतु रहता ॥
Gurmukẖ akẖar jiṯ ḏẖāvaṯ rahṯā.
The Guru's Instruction is the Word, by which the wandering mind is restrained.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਮ ਸਹਤਾ
गुरमुखि उपदेसु दुखु सुखु सम सहता ॥
Gurmukẖ upḏes ḏukẖ sukẖ sam sahṯā.
Through the Guru's Teachings, we can endure pain and pleasure alike.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਲ ਜਿਤੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੮॥
गुरमुखि चाल जितु पारब्रहमु धिआए गुरमुखि कीरतनु गाए जीउ ॥८॥
Gurmukẖ cẖāl jiṯ pārbarahm ḏẖi▫ā▫e gurmukẖ kīrṯan gā▫e jī▫o. ||8||
To live as Gurmukh is the lifestyle by which we come to meditate on the Supreme Lord. The Gurmukh sings the Kirtan of His Praises. ||8||

ਸਗਲੀ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ਆਪੇ
सगली बणत बणाई आपे ॥
Saglī baṇaṯ baṇā▫ī āpe.
The Lord Himself created the entire creation.

ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਥਾਪੇ
आपे करे कराए थापे ॥
Āpe kare karā▫e thāpe.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act. He Himself establishes.

ਇਕਸੁ ਤੇ ਹੋਇਓ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ਜੀਉ॥੯॥੨॥੩੬॥
इकसु ते होइओ अनंता नानक एकसु माहि समाए जीउ ॥९॥२॥३६॥
Ikas ṯe ho▫i▫o ananṯā Nānak ekas māhi samā▫e jī▫o. ||9||2||36||
From oneness, He has brought forth the countless multitudes. O Nanak, they shall merge into the One once again. ||9||2||36||

I gather from this (and other shabads that I've read that i will post if you like) that reincarnation applies to all that are not gurmukh, that only through living the lifestyle and following the instructions we receive from gurbani can we escape it. I take from this that karma is real and applicable except for the gurmukh. I also gather that there is some sort of separation that is eliminated for the gurmukh who is then one with the Source. I'll post more to explain my view on this later.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Except for becoming a gurmukh according to gurbani. The following is from page 131
Yes, but becoming a Gurmukh is also a universal trait no matter how one refines oneself in this field. Sikhi has no magic formula. A person of any hue, creed, faith. no faith and sexual orientation can become Gurmukh quite unknowingly to the self.
 

RicktheSikh

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May 19, 2018
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Yes, but becoming a Gurmukh is also a universal trait no matter how one refines oneself in this field. Sikhi has no magic formula. A person of any hue, creed, faith. no faith and sexual orientation can become Gurmukh quite unknowingly to the self.
I agree. I'm not asserting that Sikhi is the one and only way to become a gurmukh, although this shabad from page 33 (which is also relevant to my current thoughts on reincarnation) does make me feel like this path is the one for me.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:

ਕਾਂਇਆ ਸਾਧੈ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਕਰੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ
कांइआ साधै उरध तपु करै विचहु हउमै न जाइ ॥
Kāʼn▫i▫ā sāḏẖai uraḏẖ ṯap karai vicẖahu ha▫umai na jā▫e.
You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.

ਅਧਿਆਤਮ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ
अधिआतम करम जे करे नामु न कब ही पाइ ॥
Aḏẖi▫āṯam karam je kare nām na kab hī pā▫e.
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੧॥
गुर कै सबदि जीवतु मरै हरि नामु वसै मनि आइ ॥१॥
Gur kai sabaḏ jīvaṯ marai har nām vasai man ā▫e. ||1||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. ||1||

ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਜੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾ
सुणि मन मेरे भजु सतगुर सरणा ॥
Suṇ man mere bẖaj saṯgur sarṇā.
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਬਿਖੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰ ਤਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
गुर परसादी छुटीऐ बिखु भवजलु सबदि गुर तरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gur parsādī cẖẖutī▫ai bikẖ bẖavjal sabaḏ gur ṯarṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਾ ਧਾਤੁ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ
त्रै गुण सभा धातु है दूजा भाउ विकारु ॥
Ŧarai guṇ sabẖā ḏẖāṯ hai ḏūjā bẖā▫o vikār.
Everything under the influence of the three qualities shall perish; the love of duality is corrupting.

ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਪੜੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਮੋਹ ਬਾਧਾ ਨਹ ਬੂਝੈ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਪਿਆਰਿ
पंडितु पड़ै बंधन मोह बाधा नह बूझै बिखिआ पिआरि ॥
Pandiṯ paṛai banḏẖan moh bāḏẖā nah būjẖai bikẖi▫ā pi▫ār.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand.

ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੂਟੈ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਦਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੨॥
सतगुरि मिलिऐ त्रिकुटी छूटै चउथै पदि मुकति दुआरु ॥२॥
Saṯgur mili▫ai ṯarikutī cẖẖūtai cẖa▫uthai paḏ mukaṯ ḏu▫ār. ||2||
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ
गुर ते मारगु पाईऐ चूकै मोहु गुबारु ॥
Gur ṯe mārag pā▫ī▫ai cẖūkai moh gubār.
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਉਧਰੈ ਪਾਏ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ
सबदि मरै ता उधरै पाए मोख दुआरु ॥
Sabaḏ marai ṯā uḏẖrai pā▫e mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
गुर परसादी मिलि रहै सचु नामु करतारु ॥३॥
Gur parsādī mil rahai sacẖ nām karṯār. ||3||
By Guru's Grace, one remains blended with the True Name of the Creator. ||3||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਅਤਿ ਸਬਲ ਹੈ ਛਡੇ ਕਿਤੈ ਉਪਾਇ
इहु मनूआ अति सबल है छडे न कितै उपाइ ॥
Ih manū▫ā aṯ sabal hai cẖẖade na kiṯai upā▫e.
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਇਦਾ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਇ
दूजै भाइ दुखु लाइदा बहुती देइ सजाइ ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏukẖ lā▫iḏā bahuṯī ḏe▫e sajā▫e.
In the love of duality, people suffer in pain, condemned to terrible punishment.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਉਬਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਗਵਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੮॥੫੧॥
नानक नामि लगे से उबरे हउमै सबदि गवाइ ॥४॥१८॥५१॥
Nānak nām lage se ubre ha▫umai sabaḏ gavā▫e. ||4||18||51||
O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished. ||4||18||51||

I take from this that our emotional attachment and our ego are what keeps us imprisoned in duality. The love of duality is what keeps us imprisoned in the cycle of reincarnation. Through the Guru's word and by the Guru's grace we are led to understand our true nature which kills the ego. There is then no more individual self. We become dead while alive. No longer in love with duality we kill the ego, recognize through the Word that our Creator is all pervading (including ourselves) and that is how we are saved. All by Guru's grace. This is my current understanding.
 

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ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਜੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾ
सुणि मन मेरे भजु सतगुर सरणा ॥
Suṇ man mere bẖaj saṯgur sarṇā.
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਬਿਖੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰ ਤਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
गुर परसादी छुटीऐ बिखु भवजलु सबदि गुर तरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gur parsādī cẖẖutī▫ai bikẖ bẖavjal sabaḏ gur ṯarṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||
@RicktheSikh ji,

Firstly, I have always admired your way of 'self-betterment' by going through the whole Shabad rather than one-liners. If you see what is in Rahao, you will find out where the focus of our goal should be and I am glad you are aware of that.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Ricksinghji,

So do you agree with Bhagat Trilochan that whatever a person thinks of at the last dying moments he/she shall become the same?

Secondly, should reincarnation be a universal phenomenon? Why and or why not?
I guess for those who believe that any idea of reincarnation mentioned in Gurbani means some change in psyche (while in this one life) then any reference to dying must mean change in thoughts and not death as in physical death? Then it wouldn’t make sense though... it would be essentially saying when you change your thoughts towards xxx you become like xxx over and over again in this same life. Only... that’s not true because people can and do change. Or just because someone thinks about women once doesn’t mean they become a prostitution... so this interpretation I ‘personally’ don’t think works.

Again my view on reincarnation is different as Akal Purakh being the ONE is the one doing the reincarnating into many different individuals all at once, and all through time. The same one actor. And yet somehow we can function individually in a spiritual sense still... I say this because of some things I have experienced right from childhood. They definitely were not dreams (some happened from fully awake) and I had brief glimpses from outside the physical body state. However I still retained some identity of Harkiran while it happened, at the same time I felt like that was just a part I played like many others.

So I think our identity (spiritually) is a part of the one and it’s the ONE really which is fragmented into many. Like water each drop is indistinguishable from the ocean but the drop still exists as well. It may be rain at one point, or a stream at one point, or in a drinking glass at another time, or in a human body another time but it’s still water. That drop I believe can and does go on to other identities. The hard part for me is tying to imagine the ocean as one - where space is meaningless because space implies duality (here vs there) it helps to know prior to the Big Bang everything was very much in that state we call ONEness and the ‘space’ everything exploded into did not exist. There was nothing literally and scientifically except ONEness.

So time and space from point of view of ONEness do not exist. So reincarnation is ultimately inconsequential. Is part of the illusion. Part of the dream. The dream however does have meaning. It exists for a reason... my favourite quote about reality thus far has been:

The Universe is the act of the ONE Creator experiencing itself subjectively though it’s own creation.

Because this is the only way ONE can see and try to contemplate itself, is from a different perspective. And to experience subjectively, it needs to experience amnesia about it’s true isldentity.
 

Harry Haller

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Yes, but becoming a Gurmukh is also a universal trait no matter how one refines oneself in this field. Sikhi has no magic formula. A person of any hue, creed, faith. no faith and sexual orientation can become Gurmukh quite unknowingly to the self.
I would wager that most Gurmukhs, if not all, have no idea that they are, to them its just life and normal, and they do it without carrots, after all, to me Sikhism stands as a religion without carrots and without whips, do what you want, deal with the consequences, learn, and keep going.

I find the thought that there should be some sort of prize for living as a Gurmukh quite offensive actually,
 

Harry Haller

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I guess for those who believe that any idea of reincarnation mentioned in Gurbani means some change in psyche (while in this one life) then any reference to dying must mean change in thoughts and not death as in physical death?
yup, that's what I believe,

Then it wouldn’t make sense though.
I find it makes sense but then ,but then we are all different, and entitled to believe in what we believe

it would be essentially saying when you change your thoughts towards xxx you become like xxx over and over again in this same life.
We are what we think, I know this, because I have had lots of thoughts, and I have invariably become what my thoughts were, a man who thinks of drink, drinks, a man who thinks of women, chases women, the same with drugs, anger, ego in fact, anything, mind you, I am talking about people that live, that breathe, not the walking dead who have many many thoughts but keep an outwardly socially acceptable state, they are cowards and will live their lives as zombies. Today, I can be anyone I wish to be, in my head I have the template of a million personalities, I could get get laid, I could find some smack, it all depends what the dominant thought is in my head, as it happens, the dominant thought in my head is the 50 or so computers that need to be shipped today, so that is what I will be today, tomorrow I will worry about when it comes.

Only... that’s not true because people can and do change. Or just because someone thinks about women once doesn’t mean they become a prostitution... so this interpretation I ‘personally’ don’t think works.
I don't believe people do change actually, people mask themselves, they kid themselves, they stick plasters on what they find offensive, or what society finds offensive, they change one addiction for another, they kid themselves they have found themselves, but speaking for myself, I am the same person I was 40 years ago, with the same thoughts and same desires, we are animals pretending to be civilized and therein lies the problem, we will always be animals, animals who go to foreign lands in the name of charity and good works, and then {censored} the locals for money,

Again my view on reincarnation is different as Akal Purakh being the ONE is the one doing the reincarnating into many different individuals all at once, and all through time.
you keep stating this, but every time I dig a bit deeper, you cannot back it up, it doesn't work, it doesn't add up.

And yet somehow we can function individually in a spiritual sense still... I say this because of some things I have experienced right from childhood. They definitely were not dreams (some happened from fully awake) and I had brief glimpses from outside the physical body state. However I still retained some identity of Harkiran while it happened, at the same time I felt like that was just a part I played like many others.
bully for you, but that's your story, just like this is my story, the difference is, I don't apply my story to the world, its individual, its your thing

So I think our identity (spiritually) is a part of the one and it’s the ONE really which is fragmented into many. Like water each drop is indistinguishable from the ocean but the drop still exists as well. It may be rain at one point, or a stream at one point, or in a drinking glass at another time, or in a human body another time but it’s still water. That drop I believe can and does go on to other identities. The hard part for me is tying to imagine the ocean as one - where space is meaningless because space implies duality (here vs there) it helps to know prior to the Big Bang everything was very much in that state we call ONEness and the ‘space’ everything exploded into did not exist. There was nothing literally and scientifically except ONEness.
to what end?

So time and space from point of view of ONEness do not exist. So reincarnation is ultimately inconsequential. Is part of the illusion. Part of the dream. The dream however does have meaning. It exists for a reason... my favourite quote about reality thus far has been:
care to share the reason?

The Universe is the act of the ONE Creator experiencing itself subjectively though it’s own creation.

Because this is the only way ONE can see and try to contemplate itself, is from a different perspective. And to experience subjectively, it needs to experience amnesia about it’s true isldentity.
ah right, so your saying the Creator therefore is not perfect and needs to play games with itself in order to learn more about itself?
 

Harkiran Kaur

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yup, that's what I believe,


I find it makes sense but then ,but then we are all different, and entitled to believe in what we believe



We are what we think, I know this, because I have had lots of thoughts, and I have invariably become what my thoughts were, a man who thinks of drink, drinks, a man who thinks of women, chases women, the same with drugs, anger, ego in fact, anything, mind you, I am talking about people that live, that breathe, not the walking dead who have many many thoughts but keep an outwardly socially acceptable state, they are cowards and will live their lives as zombies. Today, I can be anyone I wish to be, in my head I have the template of a million personalities, I could get get laid, I could find some smack, it all depends what the dominant thought is in my head, as it happens, the dominant thought in my head is the 50 or so computers that need to be shipped today, so that is what I will be today, tomorrow I will worry about when it comes.


I don't believe people do change actually, people mask themselves, they kid themselves, they stick plasters on what they find offensive, or what society finds offensive, they change one addiction for another, they kid themselves they have found themselves, but speaking for myself, I am the same person I was 40 years ago, with the same thoughts and same desires, we are animals pretending to be civilized and therein lies the problem, we will always be animals, animals who go to foreign lands in the name of charity and good works, and then {censored} the locals for money,


you keep stating this, but every time I dig a bit deeper, you cannot back it up, it doesn't work, it doesn't add up.


bully for you, but that's your story, just like this is my story, the difference is, I don't apply my story to the world, its individual, its your thing



to what end?


care to share the reason?



ah right, so your saying the Creator therefore is not perfect and needs to play games with itself in order to learn more about itself?
Perfect implies there is something imperfect to compare it to. That would mean duality. Creator just ‘is’ One is One there is no other to make comparisons.

Duality and ONEness are concepts in Gurbani. I didn’t make them up. I’m trying to explain how I have come to understand what it is Gurbani is saying. If you also get a different meaning from it that can apply to the physical level then great. It has multiple meanings. But, why would we need a book saying that we are what we think, of as you say it’s impossible to ever change ones mind or nature? There’s no point is there? I’ll ask the same question you always ask others... how does that improve your life? Great, you know that you’re a womanizer and always will be and no matter what you do you’ll never change. Kind of dismal outlook no? On the other hand if you can see the same divine light in others that you see in yourself, and realize you are one (not physically of course) you realize the futility of hurting others for your gain. For some false temporary Dopamine fix? (Dopamine is he feel good neurotransmitter in the brain).

The concept of ONEness needing duality to realize itself this going inward is not new and not only in a Sikhi.

Please Harry Ji tell me your understanding of the concepts of nirgun and sargun. How can you understand those concepts within only a physical framework? How can something be both unmanifest and yet manifest as all? How can something posses no qualities and yet all qualities? How can ONEness also be ALL? Creator being ONE and yet ALL, both unmanifest and manifest are clear in Gurbani. If there is only ONE and no other, then how ALL also exist unless ALL are ONE and the separateness is illusion? I’m genuinely interested in how you interpret this in only a physical sense or the Hunan mind.
 

Harry Haller

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Perfect implies there is something imperfect to compare it to. That would mean duality. Creator just ‘is’ One is One there is no other to make comparisons.
then your argument does not work, in that case, the Creator is still growing and learning, have I got that right?

Duality and ONEness are concepts in Gurbani.
yes, I know this, allow me to explain my own reasoning, my oneness right now is in the base and the shit, not the holy, but then, that is today, now, tomorrow I may feel differently. So we can therefore assume there must be 3 states, oneness with god, oneness with the shit, and a state of duality, but even oneness with God is only for today, isn't it?, in fact not even for today, not even for the next hour, not even for the next 5 mins, its now, right now, and then suddenly everything changes, I don't know anyone that lives in one state, whether it be shit, or God, duality is a human state that, as far as I can see, has not been conquered by anyone, do you know anyone that has conquered this, and I mean really conquered it, not just pretending to.

I’m trying to explain how I have come to understand what it is Gurbani is saying. If you also get a different meaning from it that can apply to the physical level then great. It has multiple meanings. But, why would we need a book saying that we are what we think, of as you say it’s impossible to ever change ones mind or nature? There’s no point is there?
sure there is a point, the point is knowing yourself and understanding who you really are, rather than who you wish to be

I’ll ask the same question you always ask others... how does that improve your life?
it makes me understand why I do things, rather than just not do them out of fear or ridicule, or because of what society says I should do, or because of what society understand of religion, which seems to change on a regular basis.

Great, you know that you’re a womanizer and always will be and no matter what you do you’ll never change.
actually I have never been a womanizer, I have always treated women with the utmost respect, I have always loved sex, this is true, but I have never taken advantage of or used anyone.

Kind of dismal outlook no?
no more dismal than those that convince themselves that they are pure and holy and are above all of these things, who is kidding who? I refuse to apologise for not being able to stick a plaster on the whole thing and move on, its there, I have to live with it and integrate it into my life, rather than stick it in a box, and keep sticking things into boxes until I am just another zombie, another walking dead.

On the other hand if you can see the same divine light in others that you see in yourself, and realize you are one (not physically of course) you realize the futility of hurting others for your gain.
I refuse to accept I have any divine light, I don't think I would want any, sounds a bit boring and tedious, and although when I was younger, I hurt others for my gain, it is not something I would do now, I live by a very simple rule,
primum non nocere, first do no harm, to yourself, or to others, although I often exempt myself from this, but to others, for me, it is a holy saying.

The concept of ONEness needing duality to realize itself this going inward is not new and not only in a Sikhi.
oneness with what though?

as I said there must be three states, duality, oneness with one state, and then oneness with the other state

Please Harry Ji tell me your understanding of the concepts of nirgun and sargun.
as said, I am no scholar, and in fact, have little time for scholarly pursuits, I am a scar collector, that is how I function, if you could explain where this is going, I will attempt to provide my opinion.

How can something be both unmanifest and yet manifest as all? How can something posses no qualities and yet all qualities? How can ONEness also be ALL? Creator being ONE and yet ALL, both unmanifest and manifest are clear in Gurbani. If there is only ONE and no other, then how ALL also exist unless ALL are ONE and the separateness is illusion? I’m genuinely interested in how you interpret this in only a physical sense or the Hunan mind.
I am interested in this, go on please, I have never really paid much attention to this argument, but what your saying is that everything is one, sure, I buy that, the problem lies in the reality of the situation, you are not me, and I am not you, so although we are one, we are not, no matter how you explain it, I will never be you, and you will never be me, you can explain how it all works, but the reality does not reflect the idealistic.
 

Harry Haller

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Harkiranji

After a brief talk with God, and also the head of the department of shit, the three of us have come to the conclusion that actually, I don't live in duality, as that to me is as good as death, I would rather die than live in duality, nope, I swing wildly from one extreme to the other, sometimes in the lap of god, sometimes neck deep in shit, but never in duality, just FYI.

Duality for me is never making a commitment to one of the other, have I got that right? Duality is walking the tepid warm road between flesh and God, and never being one or the other, I commit to both on a regular basis, which is fully acceptable to all three of us!
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Perhaps the best way to word it is that your body is not my body... or rather not your or my but rather that body and this body. The you and me behind them are one in the same according to Gurbani.

But I get the feeling that you consider the physical body known as Harry Ji IS fully you and that you exist as no entity beyond it.... am I right?

By the way a I wasn’t saying YOU were a womanizer it was just an example... I could have inserted murderer etc in there as well it was just so X person realizes that they are y.... (Hope u understood that).

then your argument does not work, in that case, the Creator is still growing and learning, have I got that right?


yes, I know this, allow me to explain my own reasoning, my oneness right now is in the base and the shit, not the holy, but then, that is today, now, tomorrow I may feel differently. So we can therefore assume there must be 3 states, oneness with god, oneness with the shit, and a state of duality, but even oneness with God is only for today, isn't it?, in fact not even for today, not even for the next hour, not even for the next 5 mins, its now, right now, and then suddenly everything changes, I don't know anyone that lives in one state, whether it be shit, or God, duality is a human state that, as far as I can see, has not been conquered by anyone, do you know anyone that has conquered this, and I mean really conquered it, not just pretending to.


sure there is a point, the point is knowing yourself and understanding who you really are, rather than who you wish to be


it makes me understand why I do things, rather than just not do them out of fear or ridicule, or because of what society says I should do, or because of what society understand of religion, which seems to change on a regular basis.


actually I have never been a womanizer, I have always treated women with the utmost respect, I have always loved sex, this is true, but I have never taken advantage of or used anyone.


no more dismal than those that convince themselves that they are pure and holy and are above all of these things, who is kidding who? I refuse to apologise for not being able to stick a plaster on the whole thing and move on, its there, I have to live with it and integrate it into my life, rather than stick it in a box, and keep sticking things into boxes until I am just another zombie, another walking dead.



I refuse to accept I have any divine light, I don't think I would want any, sounds a bit boring and tedious, and although when I was younger, I hurt others for my gain, it is not something I would do now, I live by a very simple rule,
primum non nocere, first do no harm, to yourself, or to others, although I often exempt myself from this, but to others, for me, it is a holy saying.


oneness with what though?

as I said there must be three states, duality, oneness with one state, and then oneness with the other state



as said, I am no scholar, and in fact, have little time for scholarly pursuits, I am a scar collector, that is how I function, if you could explain where this is going, I will attempt to provide my opinion.



I am interested in this, go on please, I have never really paid much attention to this argument, but what your saying is that everything is one, sure, I buy that, the problem lies in the reality of the situation, you are not me, and I am not you, so although we are one, we are not, no matter how you explain it, I will never be you, and you will never be me, you can explain how it all works, but the reality does not reflect the idealistic.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
5,761
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By the way a I wasn’t saying YOU were a womanizer it was just an example... I could have inserted murderer etc in there as well it was just so X person realizes that they are y.... (Hope u understood that).
its late, have just done a 19 hour day, will reply to your points in the morning, however, regarding the murder comment, nothing was proven, it was all a big misunderstanding,
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Perhaps the best way to word it is that your body is not my body... or rather not your or my but rather that body and this body. The you and me behind them are one in the same according to Gurbani.

But I get the feeling that you consider the physical body known as Harry Ji IS fully you and that you exist as no entity beyond it.... am I right?

By the way a I wasn’t saying YOU were a womanizer it was just an example... I could have inserted murderer etc in there as well it was just so X person realizes that they are y.... (Hope u understood that).
but you and me behind our bodies are not the same, I am a madman with a wolf fixation, and you are a scholar and a thinker, we are as alike as chalk and cheese behind our physical manifestations,

I don't consider the physical body to be me, I consider my insides to be me, some call it a soul, or a spirit, I prefer to say that me is my brain, and that all that I am is contained in my brain including my so called soul and spirt, therefore I am my brain.
 

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