Sikhi Thousand Lives Of Reincarnating Minds

[Bhai Harbans Lal]

What is Reincarnation
Sikh theology differs in defining reincarnation. The ideas of reincarnation are many and as old as human civilization. Their descriptions are found from the last centuries of the 1st millennium BCE. However, the ideas remain ideas only, and have never reached any logical or precise description.

Descriptions of reincarnation differ from one faith to another. The most popular ones describe reincarnation as the repeated rebirth of the soul into successive human or animal bodies until spiritual liberation is attained through ethical living and a variety of meditative, yogic, or other religious practices. It may even be the decision of a prophet on the day of judgment.

The Logic Behind Reincarnation
At the outset, the present descriptions of reincarnation defy modern logic, and most religious leaders shrewdly shy away from offering any reasonable explanation. Vedic traditions consider the release from the cycle of rebirths as the ultimate spiritual goal and call the liberation by terms such as moksha, nirvana, mukti, and kaivalya. Abrahamic theology suggests that the entities that die wait in hell or heaven until the new life becomes available and granted.

Here, I wish to put together the view expressed by the authors of the Guru Granth, the sacred scripture presently in the custodianship of the Sikhs.

Who Goes Through Reincarnations?
Siddhas, the scholars of the ancient Hindu religions asked Guru Nanak about reincarnation as one of their questions during the interfaith dialogue Guru Nanak had initiated with them. The Guru’s reply is archived in the following verses of the Guru Granth (SGGS) on page 939.

Siddhas asked:

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਆਵੈ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ Who comes and who goes into life cycles?

Guru Nanak responded,

ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ “Manmukh”- (mind-orientations) die and the same are reborn.

Then what is “Manmukh”?

Manmukh, Memes, and Mind Animals
Manmukh is a cluster of entities that are subject to reincarnations, besides its many roles during any human lifespan. These entities take instructions from m’n which as a bunch of memons is continuously formatting the human mind. Each memon is a cluster of memes. A meme is an element of a culture or a system of human behaviors, that may pass from one individual to another by nongenetic means. They are sensory inputs originating from a wide range of complex phenomena in the human environment – language, art, scientific thinking, political behavior, productive work, religion, philosophical discourse, even history itself. They are imitations or bombardments of sensory data originating continuously in the cultural environment and, in turn, continuously forming memons that become the precursors of m’n or mind. The instructions from m’n become the architect of our intellectual faculties. The mental faculties similarly impacted work their way into our consciousness to render it manmukh.

What is born and what dies, according to Guru Nanak’s response to a question from Siddhas is the manmukh. Manmukh minds go through unending reincarnations according to the Sikh theology detailed in the Guru Granth. A couple of its illustrations are quoted below.

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ SGGS, 19.

The blind forgot the Creator and became mind oriented, manmukh, to dwell in utter darkness. Then, Manmukh experiences continual reincarnations i.e. continued coming and going that do not end; through death and rebirth, one is wasting away.

Here, we may realize that the manmukh intellect is often deceitful. It makes us feel good when we do things that it approves. It primes us for actions that fall within the slavery of its precepts. It blurs the boundaries between pleasure and illusion. We begin to interpret our brain’s chemical impulses resulting from the dictates of secular cultures as actual sources of pleasures and pains. Our bodies become servants to their whims, thus acting like numerous varieties of animals. The “animals” thus born in one’s mind are subject to multiple transmigration or reincarnations.

Illustrations of Reincarnations
The Sikh scriptures provide many illustrations of the above-described transmigrations or reincarnations of the human mind. Any person may experience them within a human lifespan. The Guru Granth even spells out some example of animal-like rebirths suffered by those who are devoid of Guru given mantra of the right path.

ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥

ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ – SGGS, p. 1356

Those mortals who are devoid of Guru’s teachings live cursed and contaminated lives. Their life is often that of a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, and a snake.

The Guru Granth says that excessive desires also lead to similar reincarnations of mind that leads to life cycles like those in the hell.

ਹੇ ਕਾਮੰ ਨਰਕ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੰ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਣਹ ॥ SGGS, p. 1358

O excessive desires, you lead the mortals to wander in reincarnations of countless species, thereby, driving them to live in the hell.

Similarly, according to another verse, narcissist’s mind (Manmukh) is said to lead the human beings to the cycles of reincarnations.

ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਗੁ ਬਿਨਸਦਾ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ SGGS, p. 33.

The humanity is dying under the influence of narcissism and continually rotating in many reincarnations of coming and going (births and deaths).

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਰੋਗਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮਹਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥ SGGS, p. 768

Those who are afflicted with the diseases of narcissism and live under the illusion of Maya, they all suffer from the pains of deaths and rebirths (reincarnations).

Another verse,

ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਗੁ ਬਿਨਸਦਾ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ SGGS, p. 33

Engrossed in narcissism, the world perishes. It dies and is reborn; it continues coming and going in reincarnation.

Likewise, those attached to the love of duality suffer unpleasant reincarnations.

ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਪੈਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਣਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕੇ ਕੀੜੇ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਰਾਤੇ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਹੋਹਿ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੫॥ SGGS, 116

Cursed is the food, and cursed are the clothes, of those who are attached to the love of duality. They are like maggots living in manure and sinking into a slurry of manure. There only they die and take births. Thus, they are wasted away to ruin. |

Salvation from the Cycles of Reincarnation
Should people of this world not learn the right path of successful living, and not realize the right way, they will continue to exist in the human bodies, but, in reality, they will be as dead human. In fact, they will be condemned to thousands of lives of reincarnations that will doom them to wrecks.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਮਿਰਤਕੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਫੇਰੁ ਪਇਆ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ SGGS, p. 88

Those who do not acquire spiritual wisdom into their hearts; they are like dead bodies in the world. They go through the cycle of 8.4 million (meaning countless) reincarnations which devastate them through the punishments caused by deaths and rebirths.

Freedom from Reincarnation is the Goal
According to the path of Sikhi, freedom from reincarnations is the Goal of Human Life. But how? The Guru Granth suggest a few ways.

First, one must come to realize that just by going through reincarnations one never reaches any permanent abode of peace. However, such a life may be achieved through the path shown by Guru, the one with the ability to lighten up the trail hitherto covered by darkness.

ਅਨਿਕ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਕਰਉ ਸੇਵਾ ਗੁਰਲਾਗਉ ਚਰਨ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਹੁ ਜੀ ਬਤਾਈ ॥ SGGS, p. 687

I failed to achieve a permanent abode of peace just by going through countless reincarnations. Now I serve the causes of the Guru and seek Guru’s teachings so that Guru may teach me the way to the salvation.

According to Gurmat (path of the Guru or Divine Wisdom), first, one may seek the company of those who have achieved the salvation from the reincarnations.

ਸਫਲ ਸਫਲ ਭਈ ਸਫਲ ਜਾਤ੍ਰਾ ॥ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣ ਰਹੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਾਧਾ ॥ SGGS, p. 686

The journey of this life is successful only when reincarnations of human mind end, for which one may seek the company of those who have achieved success in conquering their m’n (mind of Manmukh).

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥ ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ -SGGS, p. 522

Says Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know a Perfect Way. While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, the follower is liberated.

A scholar by the name of Tal paid a visit to Guru Arjan, the compiler-editor of the Guru Granth. When in the company of the Guru, he composed the following verse.

ਸੁ ਕਹੁ ਟਲ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ਦਰਸਨਿ ਪਰਸਿਐ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੈ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥SGGS, 1392.
So, speaks TAL the poet: serve the Guru, day and night, with intuitive love and affection. Contemplating upon the philosophy of the Guru, the pains of death and rebirth are taken away.

Conclusion
According to Gurmat (path of the Guru). The reincarnations apply to the birth and deaths of the human mind, m’n, and not the human body. m’n is described succinctly as a storehouse of the many clusters of memes. Memes are mental storehouses of ideas formed from units of cultural inputs. They are capable of self-replication and cross meme transmission, thus creating the seat of reincarnations.

We erroneously learn to listen to our inner voices to guide our actions. The inner voices come from m’n.

ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥ – SGGS, p. 832

People do what their human conscience (m’n) commands, thus it is their human conscience that defines sins and virtues.

This paper described reincarnations as various forms of m’n that are continually taking new births. Only the company of those who have conquered the m’n may show the path of ultimate realization and end the pains of reincarnations.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਸੰਗ ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਵਨੋ ॥ AGGS, p. 1323.

Whoever chants sacred hymns and meditates on Naam in the Saadh Sangat, the seekers’ gatherings, shall undoubtedly escape from consumption by the Messenger of Death.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

WJKK WJKF

I don’t think that ideas be of existence beyond the physical defy logic at all. Especially when modern science now knows matter as we know it is not actually the solid tangible thing we think it is. And consciousness has been shown to create matter and not the other way around. (Double slit experiment). If electrons only pop into existence as a particle (something tangible) when consciously observed, and our brains are made of the same electrons... among other subatomic particles, then logically consciousness (not wakefulness but the underlying identity or observer) in all of us must exist somewhere outside of this body.

You are speaking of mind and have somehow truncated manmukh to just man... then one wonders what your meaning of gurmukh is if manmukh means only the mind? But in any case, the mind is he ego identity affected by various emotions caused by chemicals in our brains but it’s been shown that remove the false identity (amnesia - there is a patient who was extensively studied who completely lost all capability of short term memory - and most long term as well except for automatic reactions and language etc). and even though his identity or mind was removed there is still an awareness, a primal observer there.

Gurbani tells us that Akal Purakh IS the chessboard and he pieces, meaning the universe and us and also the player (Akal Purakh). When all is understood at the base of everything to be ONE then who exactly is reincarnating? Thinking of it as individual souls jumping Bodies is wrong. Yet something IS unfolding in complexity... from elemental gasss to stars to galaxies to planets to mineral to plant to animal and finally human. It’s the same ONE primal observer who is behind every thing and every one. We are told only as human can we meet the Creator is because only humans aren’t capable of introspection and asking the important question who am I and why am I here.

There are scientists who now say the universe is the act of the one Creator experiencing itself subjectively through it’s own creation. We are he...

When I read Gurbani I don’t get any feeling that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just psychology 101 textbook.

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurbani tells us that Akal Purakh IS the chessboard and he pieces, meaning the universe and us and also the player (Akal Purakh)

nope, it tells you, it never told me that, so your 'us' is incorrect, why not just stick to what you understand instead of speaking for all of us?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

nope, it tells you, it never told me that, so your 'us' is incorrect, why not just stick to what you understand instead of speaking for all of us?

And just as easily you should be saying the same on the atheistic / psychology version of Gurbani. However you never do. Whenever someone posts an interpretation of Gurbani which basically equates it to psychology 101 you never pipe up and tell them it’s only their understanding...why? This makes you just as guilty of touting your interpretation as THE interpretation.

By the way the shabad does exist which says Akal purakh is the chessboard and the pieces. It’s not something I interpreted I was just referencing the shabad:

It says that ‘you’ created the Universe... so it’s clear that the you being spoken of is Akal Purakh. It says you are the chessboard and the chessmen, also the fish and the net. It’s showing interconnectedness and how everything is one. I think it’s pretty specific and can’t be interpreted as states of mind. My mind (the individual) did not create the universe after all. If you say the you is yourself or your mind then it doesn’t work.

ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੧
मारू सोलहे महला १
Mārū solhe mėhlā 1
Maaroo, Solahas, First Mehl:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
साचा सचु सोई अवरु न कोई ॥
Sācẖā sacẖ so▫ī avar na ko▫ī.
The True Lord is True; there is no other at all.

ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਜੀ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਫੁਨਿ ਗੋਈ ॥
जिनि सिरजी तिन ही फुनि गोई ॥
Jin sirjī ṯin hī fun go▫ī.
He who created, shall in the end destroy.

ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਰਹਣਾ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਮੁਕਰਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
जिउ भावै तिउ राखहु रहणा तुम सिउ किआ मुकराई हे ॥१॥
Ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o rākẖo rahṇā ṯum si▫o ki▫ā mukrā▫ī he. ||1||
As it pleases You, so You keep me, and so I remain; what excuse could I offer to You? ||1||

ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਖਪਾਏ ॥
आपि उपाए आपि खपाए ॥
Āp upā▫e āp kẖapā▫e.
You Yourself create, and You Yourself destroy.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਏ ॥
आपे सिरि सिरि धंधै लाए ॥
Āpe sir sir ḏẖanḏẖai lā▫e.
You yourself link each and every person to their tasks.

ਆਪੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਗੁਣਕਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੨॥
आपे वीचारी गुणकारी आपे मारगि लाई हे ॥२॥
Āpe vīcẖārī guṇkārī āpe mārag lā▫ī he. ||2||
You contemplate Yourself, You Yourself make us worthy; You Yourself place us on the Path. ||2||

ਆਪੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਬੀਨਾ ॥
आपे दाना आपे बीना ॥
Āpe ḏānā āpe bīnā.
You Yourself are all-wise, You Yourself are all-knowing.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਪਤੀਨਾ ॥
आपे आपु उपाइ पतीना ॥
Āpe āp upā▫e paṯīnā.
You Yourself created the Universe, and You are pleased.

ਆਪੇ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੩॥
आपे पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु आपे मेलि मिलाई हे ॥३॥
Āpe pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar āpe mel milā▫ī he. ||3||
You Yourself are the air, water and fire; You Yourself unite in Union. ||3||

ਆਪੇ ਸਸਿ ਸੂਰਾ ਪੂਰੋ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
आपे ससि सूरा पूरो पूरा ॥
Āpe sas sūrā pūro pūrā.
You Yourself are the moon, the sun, the most perfect of the perfect.

ਆਪੇ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੂਰਾ ॥
आपे गिआनि धिआनि गुरु सूरा ॥
Āpe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān gur sūrā.
You Yourself are spiritual wisdom, meditation, and the Guru, the Warrior Hero.

ਕਾਲੁ ਜਾਲੁ ਜਮੁ ਜੋਹਿ ਨ ਸਾਕੈ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੪॥
कालु जालु जमु जोहि न साकै साचे सिउ लिव लाई हे ॥४॥
Kāl jāl jam johi na sākai sācẖe si▫o liv lā▫ī he. ||4||
The Messenger of Death, and his noose of death, cannot touch one, who is lovingly focused on You, O True Lord. ||4||

ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
आपे पुरखु आपे ही नारी ॥
Āpe purakẖ āpe hī nārī.
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥
आपे पासा आपे सारी ॥
Āpe pāsā āpe sārī.
You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

ਆਪੇ ਪਿੜ ਬਾਧੀ ਜਗੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੫॥
आपे पिड़ बाधी जगु खेलै आपे कीमति पाई हे ॥५॥
Āpe piṛ bāḏẖī jag kẖelai āpe kīmaṯ pā▫ī he. ||5||
You Yourself staged the drama in the arena of the world, and You Yourself evaluate the players. ||5||

ਆਪੇ ਭਵਰੁ ਫੁਲੁ ਫਲੁ ਤਰਵਰੁ ॥
आपे भवरु फुलु फलु तरवरु ॥
Āpe bẖavar ful fal ṯarvar.
You Yourself are the bumble bee, the flower, the fruit and the tree.

ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਥਲੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਸਰਵਰੁ ॥
आपे जलु थलु सागरु सरवरु ॥
Āpe jal thal sāgar sarvar.
You Yourself are the water, the desert, the ocean and the pool.

ਆਪੇ ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕਰਣੀਕਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਲਖਣਾ ਜਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੬॥
आपे मछु कछु करणीकरु तेरा रूपु न लखणा जाई हे ॥६॥
Āpe macẖẖ kacẖẖ karṇīkar ṯerā rūp na lakẖ▫ṇā jā▫ī he. ||6||
You Yourself are the great fish, the tortoise, the Cause of causes; Your form cannot be known. ||6||

ਆਪੇ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਰੈਣੀ ॥
आपे दिनसु आपे ही रैणी ॥
Āpe ḏinas āpe hī raiṇī.
You Yourself are the day, and You Yourself are the night.

ਆਪਿ ਪਤੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬੈਣੀ ॥
आपि पतीजै गुर की बैणी ॥
Āp paṯījai gur kī baiṇī.
You Yourself are pleased by the Word of the Guru's Bani.

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਦਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਜਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
आदि जुगादि अनाहदि अनदिनु घटि घटि सबदु रजाई हे ॥७॥
Āḏ jugāḏ anāhaḏ an▫ḏin gẖat gẖat sabaḏ rajā▫ī he. ||7||
From the very beginning, and throughout the ages, the unstruck sound current resounds, night and day; in each and every heart, the Word of the Shabad, echoes Your Will. ||7||

ਆਪੇ ਰਤਨੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਅਮੋਲੋ ॥
आपे रतनु अनूपु अमोलो ॥
Āpe raṯan anūp amolo.
You Yourself are the jewel, incomparably beautiful and priceless.

ਆਪੇ ਪਰਖੇ ਪੂਰਾ ਤੋਲੋ ॥
आपे परखे पूरा तोलो ॥
Āpe parkẖe pūrā ṯolo.
You Yourself are the Assessor, the Perfect Weigher.

ਆਪੇ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਕਸਿ ਬਖਸੇ ਆਪੇ ਦੇ ਲੈ ਭਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੮॥
आपे किस ही कसि बखसे आपे दे लै भाई हे ॥८॥
Āpe kis hī kas bakẖse āpe ḏe lai bẖā▫ī he. ||8||
You Yourself test and forgive. You Yourself give and take, O Siblings of Destiny. ||8||

ਆਪੇ ਧਨਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਰਬਾਣਾ ॥
आपे धनखु आपे सरबाणा ॥
Āpe ḏẖanakẖ āpe sarbāṇā.
He Himself is the bow, and He Himself is the archer.

ਆਪੇ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
आपे सुघड़ु सरूपु सिआणा ॥
Āpe sugẖaṛ sarūp si▫āṇā.
He Himself is all-wise, beautiful and all-knowing.

ਕਹਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਸੁਣਤਾ ਸੋਈ ਆਪੇ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੯॥
कहता बकता सुणता सोई आपे बणत बणाई हे ॥९॥
Kahṯā bakṯā suṇṯā so▫ī āpe baṇaṯ baṇā▫ī he. ||9||
He is the speaker, the orator and the listener. He Himself made what is made. ||9||

ਪਉਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
पउणु गुरू पाणी पित जाता ॥
Pa▫uṇ gurū pāṇī piṯ jāṯā.
Air is the Guru, and water is known to be the father.

ਉਦਰ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਾਤਾ ॥
उदर संजोगी धरती माता ॥
Uḏar sanjogī ḏẖarṯī māṯā.
The womb of the great mother earth gives birth to all.

ਰੈਣਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਾਈ ਦਾਇਆ ਜਗੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਖੇਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੦॥
रैणि दिनसु दुइ दाई दाइआ जगु खेलै खेलाई हे ॥१०॥
Raiṇ ḏinas ḏu▫e ḏā▫ī ḏā▫i▫ā jag kẖelai kẖelā▫ī he. ||10||
Night and day are the two nurses, male and female; the world plays in this play. ||10||

ਆਪੇ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲਾ ॥
आपे मछुली आपे जाला ॥
Āpe macẖẖulī āpe jālā.
You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net.

ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਆਪੇ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ॥
आपे गऊ आपे रखवाला ॥
Āpe ga▫ū āpe rakẖvālā.
You Yourself are the cows, and You yourself are their keeper.

ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਜਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਜੈਸੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੧॥
सरब जीआ जगि जोति तुमारी जैसी प्रभि फुरमाई हे ॥११॥
Sarab jī▫ā jag joṯ ṯumārī jaisī parabẖ furmā▫ī he. ||11||
Your Light fills all the beings of the world; they walk according to Your Command, O God. ||11||

ਆਪੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਭੋਗੀ ॥
आपे जोगी आपे भोगी ॥
Āpe jogī āpe bẖogī.
You Yourself are the Yogi, and You Yourself are the enjoyer.

ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਪਰਮ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ॥
आपे रसीआ परम संजोगी ॥
Āpe rasī▫ā param sanjogī.
You Yourself are the reveller; You form the supreme Union.

ਆਪੇ ਵੇਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੨॥
आपे वेबाणी निरंकारी निरभउ ताड़ी लाई हे ॥१२॥
Āpe vebāṇī nirankārī nirbẖa▫o ṯāṛī lā▫ī he. ||12||
You Yourself are speechless, formless and fearless, absorbed in the primal ecstasy of deep meditation. ||12||

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
खाणी बाणी तुझहि समाणी ॥
Kẖāṇī baṇī ṯujẖėh samāṇī.
The sources of creation and speech are contained within You, Lord.

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸਭ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
जो दीसै सभ आवण जाणी ॥
Jo ḏīsai sabẖ āvaṇ jāṇī.
All that is seen, is coming and going.

ਸੇਈ ਸਾਹ ਸਚੇ ਵਾਪਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬੂਝ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੩॥
सेई साह सचे वापारी सतिगुरि बूझ बुझाई हे ॥१३॥
Se▫ī sāh sacẖe vāpārī saṯgur būjẖ bujẖā▫ī he. ||13||
They are the true bankers and traders, whom the True Guru has inspired to understand. ||13||

ਸਬਦੁ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
सबदु बुझाए सतिगुरु पूरा ॥
Sabaḏ bujẖā▫e saṯgur pūrā.
The Word of the Shabad is understood through the Perfect True Guru.

ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਭਰਪੂਰਾ ॥
सरब कला साचे भरपूरा ॥
Sarab kalā sācẖe bẖarpūrā.
The True Lord is overflowing with all powers.

ਅਫਰਿਓ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੂ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੪॥
अफरिओ वेपरवाहु सदा तू ना तिसु तिलु न तमाई हे ॥१४॥
Afri▫o veparvāhu saḏā ṯū nā ṯis ṯil na ṯamā▫ī he. ||14||
You are beyond our grasp, and forever independent. You do not have even an iota of greed. ||14||

ਕਾਲੁ ਬਿਕਾਲੁ ਭਏ ਦੇਵਾਨੇ ॥
कालु बिकालु भए देवाने ॥
Kāl bikāl bẖa▫e ḏevāne.
Birth and death are meaningless, for those

ਸਬਦੁ ਸਹਜ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਾਨੇ ॥
सबदु सहज रसु अंतरि माने ॥
Sabaḏ sahj ras anṯar māne.
who enjoy the sublime celestial essence of the Shabad within their minds.

ਆਪੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਵਰਦਾਤਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੫॥
आपे मुकति त्रिपति वरदाता भगति भाइ मनि भाई हे ॥१५॥
Āpe mukaṯ ṯaripaṯ varḏāṯā bẖagaṯ bẖā▫e man bẖā▫ī he. ||15||
He Himself is the Giver of liberation, satisfaction and blessings, to those devotees who love Him in their minds. ||15||

ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਮ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
आपि निरालमु गुर गम गिआना ॥
Āp nirālam gur gam gi▫ānā.
He Himself is immaculate; by contact with the Guru, spiritual wisdom is obtained.

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਤੁਝ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
जो दीसै तुझ माहि समाना ॥
Jo ḏīsai ṯujẖ māhi samānā.
Whatever is seen, shall merge into You.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਭਿਖਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਜਾਚੈ ਮੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੧੬॥੧॥
नानकु नीचु भिखिआ दरि जाचै मै दीजै नामु वडाई हे ॥१६॥१॥
Nānak nīcẖ bẖikẖi▫ā ḏar jācẖai mai ḏījai nām vadā▫ī he. ||16||1||
Nanak, the lowly, begs for charity at Your Door; please, bless him with the glorious greatness of Your Name. ||16||1||
[\quote]

 

[Harry Haller]

And just as easily you should be saying the same on the atheistic / psychology version of Gurbani. However you never do. Whenever someone posts an interpretation of Gurbani which basically equates it to psychology 101 you never pipe up and tell them it’s only their understanding...why? This makes you just as guilty of touting your interpretation as THE interpretation.

By the way the shabad does exist which says Akal purakh is the chessboard and the pieces. It’s not something I interpreted I was just referencing the shabad:

It says that ‘you’ created the Universe... so it’s clear that the you being spoken of is Akal Purakh. It says you are the chessboard and the chessmen, also the fish and the net. It’s showing interconnectedness and how everything is one. I think it’s pretty specific and can’t be interpreted as states of mind. My mind (the individual) did not create the universe after all. If you say the you is yourself or your mind then it doesn’t work.

nope I have no atheistic or psychological version of Gurbani, I am not a Sikh, so I have no opinion period on the matter, however all shabads are clearly open to many interpretations of which yours is only one, sorry to burst your bubble, but you do not own the ultimate answers, no one does, all you have is your own interpretation, whether you like it or not.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

nope I have no atheistic or psychological version of Gurbani, I am not a Sikh, so I have no opinion period on the matter, however all shabads are clearly open to many interpretations of which yours is only one, sorry to burst your bubble, but you do not own the ultimate answers, no one does, all you have is your own interpretation, whether you like it or not.

But why not tell others the same about their interpretation? It seems you only come after spiritual interpretation while the mind / psychological one you never tell the OP that it’s only their interpretation. For example above the OP he clearly is saying that his interpretation is correct. He speaks as if it’s the correct one but you have never told him that please say it’s only his interpretation.

Using your own words Sorry to burst your bubble br your statement works both ways. You can’t only tell one camp that they have to say it’s ‘their’ interpretation only while allowing the other camp to post as if it’s fact.

And going a bit further I think since this is a discussion forum we all want to put forward our interpretations and we all understand that what each other writes is only their understanding. I don’t think it’s needed to add a tag on every post. The OP posted as if his interpretation were fact and I posted my rebuttal. You can’t knock my views as being only ‘my understanding’ without also doing the same to the OP or else you are discouraging healthy debate and discussion while allowing bias towards one camp of thought.

 

[Harry Haller]

But why not tell others the same about their interpretation?

why? I have no problem with anyone's interpretation, including yours

It seems you only come after spiritual interpretation while the mind / psychological one you never tell the OP that it’s only their interpretation. For example above the OP he clearly is saying that his interpretation is correct. He speaks as if it’s the correct one but you have never told him that please say it’s only his interpretation.

it is quite a long eloquent piece which covers all bases and then gives the writers own thoughts and feelings, why would I have a problem with that?

Using your own words Sorry to burst your bubble br your statement works both ways. You can’t only tell one camp that they have to say it’s ‘their’ interpretation only while allowing the other camp to post as if it’s fact.

he has made it quite clear several times there are differing opinions and his is one of those, if you must use my words instead of your own original ones, try and use them properly

And going a bit further I think since this is a discussion forum we all want to put forward our interpretations and we all understand that what each other writes is only their understanding. I don’t think it’s needed to add a tag on every post. The OP posted as if his interpretation were fact and I posted my rebuttal. You can’t knock my views as being only ‘my understanding’ without also doing the same to the OP or else you are discouraging healthy debate and discussion while allowing bias towards one camp of thought.

I am not here to encourage or discourage healthy debate and discussion, as forum leader, that is actually your job, not mine, for the record, so we can take baby steps, the issue I have is

Gurbani tells us

that is not interpretation, that is not opinion, that is fact, and you do have the facts to make such a statement

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

why? I have no problem with anyone's interpretation, including yours


it is quite a long eloquent piece which covers all bases and then gives the writers own thoughts and feelings, why would I have a problem with that?

he has made it quite clear several times there are differing opinions and his is one of those, if you must use my words instead of your own original ones, try and use them properly

I am not here to encourage or discourage healthy debate and discussion, as forum leader, that is actually your job, not mine, for the record, so we can take baby steps, the issue I have is



that is not interpretation, that is not opinion, that is fact, and you do have the facts to make such a statement

Let me clarify when I said Gurbani tells us... I was referring to the chessboard and chessmen comparison. Not what I had written about science etc. Please don’t apply one statement to a whole post.

Also he makes several statements which are very similar in the article. For example...

Here he states that Sikh scriptures equate reincarnations as basically states of mind only. He doesn’t say for example to fit your accepted methods, that in his opinion this is what Sikh scriptures say. He states this is what Sikh scriptures say. However in the above what he is stating is almost definitely an interpretation.

Where you jumped at me, was for the exact same thing, saying Gurbani says... however the BIG difference is that Inwas only pointing to one statement in Gurbani as it’s written and not an interpretation. It’s not MY interpretation to say that Gurbani says Akal Purakh is both chessboard and chessmen. It directly says that. Read it in Punjabi if you must but it says the same thing. However his statement above is not a direct quote or pointing to what is written literally but to his interpretation of the meaning of it. And he does so without intimating that it’s only HIS understanding of the meaning. He presents it as fact.

You jumped at me for pointing out a direct quote and allowed him to make sweeping statements which are most definitely interpretation and presenting them as fact. Why? Because his interpretation is the one you agree with? That shows bias...

All i am saying is same rules should apply to everyone.

 

[Harry Haller]

et me clarify when I said Gurbani tells us... I was referring to the chessboard and chessmen comparison

Sorry, I don'y buy your comparison, we have had many chances to debate it, you never bothered, so frankly, I don't wish your opinions shoved down my throat, especially when there is no debate

Not what I had written about science etc. Please don’t apply one statement to a whole post.

I am not, I take issue that your interpretation is not as 100% as you claim it to be, you are aware of the statement in question, that is all I have issue with, not your post.

The quote you have supplied in capitals, I assume in case I lack the intelligence to read it in normal type is 100% correct, kindly tell me which part of it you have a problem with, please find the definitive statement you wish me to question as I have questioned your definitive statement. I will be happy for you to do this in normal type. You may color it if you wish, what about blue?

Here he states that Sikh scriptures equate reincarnations as basically states of mind only.

Nope, he is quite graceful and states fact, again, please state which of the above you have issue with as being as definitive as the way in which you write, you may need a different color for this, try brown

Where you jumped at me,

where I asked you not to assume you have a monopoly on facts

was for the exact same thing, saying Gurbani says... however the BIG difference is that Inwas only pointing to one statement in Gurbani as it’s written and not an interpretation

[

t’s not MY interpretation to say that Gurbani says Akal Purakh is both chessboard and chessmen. It directly says that. Read it in Punjabi if you must but it says the same thing. However his statement above is not a direct quote or pointing to what is written literally but to his interpretation of the meaning of it. And he does so without intimating that it’s only HIS understanding of the meaning. He presents it as fact.

I see, well on that basis, should we eat fish? do you wish me to quote the relevant passage? no, it does not work like that, as you well know, Gurubani is full of metaphors and comparative statements, the wisdom lies in deciphering through and finding the truth, just because you quote something verbatim means absolutely nothing, and cannot be relied on for backing up your argument, if that was the case, none of us would be eating fish. In fact, what you have done is worse, as you are taking metaphors out of context to suit your own agenda, in definitive fashion, rather than with the grace that most do.

And he does so without intimating that it’s only HIS understanding of the meaning. He presents it as fact.

well I disagree, I find he covers all bases and then presents what he thinks, its quite clear it is opinion and not fact based on misunderstood metaphors.

Because his interpretation is the one you agree with?

I don't agree with anyone, I think your all bonkers!

All i am saying is same rules should apply to everyone.

well your a forum leader, and I am not, so do something about it, in any case, I am taking issue with you at the moment, the fact that others do it is irrelevant, either cease making definitive statements or back them up, too much to ask?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Sorry, I don'y buy your comparison, we have had many chances to debate it, you never bothered, so frankly, I don't wish your opinions shoved down my throat, especially when there is no debate


I am not, I take issue that your interpretation is not as 100% as you claim it to be, you are aware of the statement in question, that is all I have issue with, not your post.

The quote you have supplied in capitals, I assume in case I lack the intelligence to read it in normal type is 100% correct, kindly tell me which part of it you have a problem with, please find the definitive statement you wish me to question as I have questioned your definitive statement. I will be happy for you to do this in normal type. You may color it if you wish, what about blue?


Nope, he is quite graceful and states fact, again, please state which of the above you have issue with as being as definitive as the way in which you write, you may need a different color for this, try brown


where I asked you not to assume you have a monopoly on facts



[


I see, well on that basis, should we eat fish? do you wish me to quote the relevant passage? no, it does not work like that, as you well know, Gurubani is full of metaphors and comparative statements, the wisdom lies in deciphering through and finding the truth, just because you quote something verbatim means absolutely nothing, and cannot be relied on for backing up your argument, if that was the case, none of us would be eating fish. In fact, what you have done is worse, as you are taking metaphors out of context to suit your own agenda, in definitive fashion, rather than with the grace that most do.


well I disagree, I find he covers all bases and then presents what he thinks, its quite clear it is opinion and not fact based on misunderstood metaphors.


I don't agree with anyone, I think your all bonkers!



well your a forum leader, and I am not, so do something about it, in any case, I am taking issue with you at the moment, the fact that others do it is irrelevant, either cease making definitive statements or back them up, too much to ask?

It is when you are not doing the same for both sides of the argument. That shows only bias. I think it’s quite clear in his language used that he is presenting his opinion as fact. That’s what I rebutted. You jumped at me but not him. So his opinion presented a fact is ok by you but not mine. Metaphor can be interpreted various ways. Stating that Gurbani says Akal Purakh is both chessboard and chess men is not interpretation of metaphor but just stating what it says. Chess and board and chess men IS the basis of the metaphor not the interpretation, however to state as fact that Gurbani says that reincarnation is just different states of mind, that IS interpretation and not just stating what was actually in Gurbani. I’m sorry you can’t see the difference.

What I got out of his is that anyone who suggests as fact that Gurbani is basically psychology 101 will never be challenged by you but anyone who interprets it in the spiritual meaning will be. That’s ok and that’s YOUR opinion to believe what you want. You say that you aren’t even Sikh so....

I’m just standing by equality that everyone should be held to the same standards and not some given preference just because it’s the line of thinking you happen to fall on while others are ridiculed for rebutting it.

In short, if one camp has to make it clear it’s our interpretation then the other camp also has to as well. In keeping with a platform which stresses equality and freedom of people to express their views. Therefore if I have to always state outright it’s only my opinion, then Bhai Harbans Lal also has to.

Or else you are encouraging a biased viewpoint to new members and readers.

End discussion because this got way off topic.

 

[Harry Haller]

End discussion because this got way off topic.

again, I find this comment indicative of your absolute confidence in your own statements, and how we should all bow down and accept them as definitive, on this occasion, as boredom is setting in, I am happy to concede

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harbans Lal ji- Thanks for your insightful meaningfulness of reincarnation as per Sikhi. Come to think of it, the word Sikh as we define ourselves by does mean multiple reincarnations of our mind in this journey of ours. After all, a Sikh learns, unlearns and relearns with every breath. This exfoliation and refoliation of our mind is a process of reincarnation of the thought towards being a Gurmukh.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Stating that Gurbani says Akal Purakh is both chessboard and chess men is not interpretation of metaphor but just stating what it says. Chess and board and chess men IS the basis of the metaphor not the interpretation,

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have seen you using several times Chessboard and Chessman analogy. I would like to understand what you exactly understand by that. Would you be kind enough to elaborate it, please? Thanks.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have seen you using several times Chessboard and Chessman analogy. I would like to understand what you exactly understand by that. Would you be kind enough to elaborate it, please? Thanks.

I already have look above. Also since we all have to state that interpretations are our own understanding and not ‘fact’ I guess that applies to you too... or else the Harry patrol will come in. One camp can’t say outright their interpretation IS Sikhi while the other gets slammed and told to say its THEIR understanding only. It’s ALL our own understanding.
Or can we just assume that everyone posts according to their own understanding and some will agree and some will disagree? In this case Bhai Harbans Lal Ji posts according to his understanding as well, abd we can’t say definitively that IS Sikhi view on reincarnation because plenty disagree. I think we should just allow each other to post and not jump down each other’s throats... Harry Ji??

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I already have look above. Also since we all have to state that interpretations are our own understanding and not ‘fact’ I guess that applies to you too... or else the Harry patrol will come in. One camp can’t say outright their interpretation IS Sikhi while the other gets slammed and told to say its THEIR understanding only. It’s ALL our own understanding.

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have seen you using several times Chessboard and Chessman analogy. I would like to understand what you exactly understand by that. Would you be kind enough to elaborate it, please? Thanks.

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

OK. But what does that have to do with my question above to you?
Can you please elaborate it?

As far as my response to Bhai Harbans Lal is concerned, I wrote the same thing on FB where he posted his blog and I happen to agree with him. Oops, I mean agree with his interpretation of reincarnation.
The best way to challenge his view, I would suggest you share your thoughts with him on FB.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

OK. But what does that have to do with my question above to you?
Can you please elaborate it?

As far as my response to Bhai Harbans Lal is concerned, I wrote the same thing on FB where he posted his blog and I happen to agree with him. Oops, I mean agree with his interpretation of reincarnation.
The best way to challenge his view, I would suggest you share your thoughts with him on FB.

Reread first line. I posted the entire shabad above and it clearly shows that ‘you’ it’s speaking of is Creator as it outright says you created the universe... it uses several comparisons like chessboard and chessmen, also fish and the net, it could have also used artist and the canvas to get the same point across... which is that creator and creation are one. Or the doer and the subject are one. To me it’s absolutely clear it’s Akal Purakh it’s talking about which is the ‘you’ as I don’t know about you I (Harkiran) have not created the universe.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Reread first line. I posted the entire shabad above and it clearly shows that ‘you’ it’s speaking of is Creator as it outright says you created the universe... it uses several comparisons like chessboard and chessmen, also fish and the net, it could have also used artist and the canvas to get the same point across... which is that creator and creation are one. Or the doer and the subject are one. To me it’s absolutely clear it’s Akal Purakh it’s talking about which is the ‘you’ as I don’t know about you I (Harkiran) have not created the universe.

Yes, I am very well aware of the message of the Shabad. My question was specific to the translation of chessboard and chessman which I found it curious and then dug deeper and found out there is no chessboard nor chessman in the verse.


ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥

Āpe pāsā āpe sārī.

You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

ਪਾਸਾ = ਚਉਪੜ, ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦਾ ਆਕਾਰ। ਸਾਰੀ = ਨਰਦਾਂ, ਜੀਵ।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਇਹ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ) ਚਉਪੜ (ਦੀ ਖੇਡ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਚਉਪੜ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੀਵ-) ਨਰਦਾਂ ਹੈ। Ang1020

ਪਾਸਾ pāsā means a dice which is used in this particular game called ਚਉਪੜ Chauparrh which is sewn on a piece of cloth. A Dice is used for a game of chance/betting whereas chess is a game of thought process. The translation by Prof. Sahib Singh says that "You are the dice and you are the ਚਉਪੜ Chauparrh, the game cloth itself."

I was wondering, taking the right translation into consideration, would the message of this particular verse change?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Yes, I am very well aware of the message of the Shabad. My question was specific to the translation of chessboard and chessman which I found it curious and then dug deeper and found out there is no chessboard nor chessman in the verse.


ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥

Āpe pāsā āpe sārī.

You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

ਪਾਸਾ = ਚਉਪੜ, ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦਾ ਆਕਾਰ। ਸਾਰੀ = ਨਰਦਾਂ, ਜੀਵ।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਇਹ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ) ਚਉਪੜ (ਦੀ ਖੇਡ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਚਉਪੜ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੀਵ-) ਨਰਦਾਂ ਹੈ। Ang1020

ਪਾਸਾ pāsā means a dice which is used in this particular game called ਚਉਪੜ Chauparr which is sewn on a piece of cloth. A Dice is used for a game of chance/betting whereas chess is a game of thought process. The translation by Prof. Sahib Singh says that "You are the dice and you are the ਚਉਪੜ Chauparrh, the game cloth itself."

I was wondering if taking the right translation into consideration, would the message of this particular verse change?

No I don’t think so because that shabad uses many examples which all seem to say the same thing... that the you is Akal Purakh which it establishes early on by saying You created the entire universe. Then it uses many comparisons of (who is doing the action) and (who is receiving said action) and saying they are the same. Or in others like the fish and the net, the one being caught and the very prison of the net itself or the cause of causes and also whom those causes affect. The bird the flower and the bees. Even the dessert and the ocean... it’s apparent that it’s saying Waheguru (Creator of the universe) is ALL. Regardless of what game wasn’t used... Cause (initiator), effect (the action), and the affected (game pieces, pawns, chessmen, whatever you want to call them) and even the landscape (playing field) are one and the same.

 

[Ishna]

Yes, I am very well aware of the message of the Shabad. My question was specific to the translation of chessboard and chessman which I found it curious and then dug deeper and found out there is no chessboard nor chessman in the verse.


ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥

Āpe pāsā āpe sārī.

You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

ਪਾਸਾ = ਚਉਪੜ, ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦਾ ਆਕਾਰ। ਸਾਰੀ = ਨਰਦਾਂ, ਜੀਵ।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਇਹ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ) ਚਉਪੜ (ਦੀ ਖੇਡ) ਹੈ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ (ਚਉਪੜ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੀਵ-) ਨਰਦਾਂ ਹੈ। Ang1020

ਪਾਸਾ pāsā means a dice which is used in this particular game called ਚਉਪੜ Chauparrh which is sewn on a piece of cloth. A Dice is used for a game of chance/betting whereas chess is a game of thought process. The translation by Prof. Sahib Singh says that "You are the dice and you are the ਚਉਪੜ Chauparrh, the game cloth itself."

I was wondering, taking the right translation into consideration, would the message of this particular verse change?

So now that Harkiran has given her understanding, I'm curious Tejwant ji, what do you think? After taking the right translation (if such a thing even exists) into consideration, does the message of the verse change, and if so, how?

Thanks

 

[Ishna]

...
You are speaking of mind and have somehow truncated manmukh to just man... then one wonders what your meaning of gurmukh is if manmukh means only the mind? But in any case, the mind is he ego identity affected by various emotions caused by chemicals in our brains but it’s been shown that remove the false identity (amnesia - there is a patient who was extensively studied who completely lost all capability of short term memory - and most long term as well except for automatic reactions and language etc). and even though his identity or mind was removed there is still an awareness, a primal observer there.

Gurbani tells us that Akal Purakh IS the chessboard and he pieces, meaning the universe and us and also the player (Akal Purakh). When all is understood at the base of everything to be ONE then who exactly is reincarnating? Thinking of it as individual souls jumping Bodies is wrong. Yet something IS unfolding in complexity... from elemental gasss to stars to galaxies to planets to mineral to plant to animal and finally human. It’s the same ONE primal observer who is behind every thing and every one. We are told only as human can we meet the Creator is because only humans aren’t capable of introspection and asking the important question who am I and why am I here.

Hello Harkiran

I can't speak for the Bhai, so only offer my own thoughts. Reading the question that is the first sentence, I wonder, could the meaning of gurmukh in this context then be 'gur'? If you are no longer manmukh, you are gurmukh, which is just gur, which is all that really exists anyway, right?

The rest that you wrote is as close to agreement as I think you and I have ever come. You said: "When all is understood at the base of everything to be ONE then who exactly is reincarnating?" My answer would be 'god'/guru/ik onkar whatever you want to call it. Because everything is ONE there isn't an individual mind that exists separate to do the reincarnating. The ONE has coalesced into what forms you and me, with our human minds, for the purpose of experiencing Itself (you quoted that in another post and it's beautiful), and once these human forms die and the minds cease to exist, there will only be the ONE again, which may coalesce into a rock or a snake or a black hole on the other side of the galaxy - but would you really say that is 'you' reincarnating?

I love the idea that from energy we come and to energy we will return. The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius sums it up rather well in the 2nd century CE, I think:

"I am made up of the causal and the material. Neither of these will disappear into nothing, just as neither came to be out of nothing. So every part of me will be assigned its changed place in some part of the universe, and that will change again into another part of the universe, and so on to infinity. A similar sequence of change brought me into existence, and my parents before me, and so back to another infinity of regression. Nothing forbids this assertion, even if the universe is subject to the completion of cycles." - Meditations, Book 5, 13