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General Thirst For God (BoSKD 4)

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Bani of Sant Kabir Das, Shabad #4, starts at the end of page 323.

A bhagat's relationship with God was that of two lovers, who had been separated for a very long time but always wanted to get back together. During their separation, their beloved's name is constantly on their tongue and on their mind.

Listen to this shabad, a rendition by Bhai Harjinder Singh: http://www.sikhroots.com/component/muscol/H/49-bhai-harjinder-singh/688-kab-gal-lawenge/8035-madho-jal-ki-piaas.html

ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ
Raag Gaurhi Kabir ji

ਮਾਧਉ ਜਲ ਕੀ ਪਿਆਸ ਨ ਜਾਇ
O Husband of Lakshmi, my thirst for your name does not go away.

Background: ਮਾਧਉ - See post http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-darpan/39118-bani-of-sant-kabir-das-1-a-2.html#post171263

ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਉਠੀ ਅਧਿਕਾਇ ਰਹਾਉ
In Your water, my thirst grows more intense. Think about this.

ਤੂੰ ਜਲਨਿਧਿ ਹਉ ਜਲ ਕਾ ਮੀਨੁ
You are the Ocean and I am the fish.

ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਉ ਜਲਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਖੀਨੁ
I live in Your water, without it I would suffer. 1.

ਤੂੰ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਹਉ ਸੂਅਟਾ ਤੋਰ
You are the parrot-cage whom I am belong to.

ਜਮੁ ਮੰਜਾਰੁ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਮੋਰ
What harm can the cat (death) do to me? 2.

Yama is the king of dead. He is likened to a cat chasing after the mortal likened to a parrot.

ਤੂੰ ਤਰਵਰੁ ਹਉ ਪੰਖੀ ਆਹਿ
You are the tree and I am the bird who nests there.

ਮੰਦਭਾਗੀ ਤੇਰੋ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਨਾਹਿ
How unfortunate, even then I do not recognize You as the tree. 3.

ਤੂੰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਹਉ ਨਉਤਨੁ ਚੇਲਾ
You are the True Guru and I am your new disciple.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮਿਲੁ ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ
Says Kabir, please meet me now, before it all ends.

After going through several forms the Atma takes on the human form. It is in this form that we have a chance to meet God. Kabir says meet me before the cycle ends, which is the end of the human form. He says don't make me wait till my next human form; don't make me wait that long, meet me now.

Summary
Sant Kabir expresses his thirst for water, his desire for meditation on Ram. He sees it as his habitat, his life, his protection and his shelter. He yearns to unite with Ram with a sense of urgency only he knew.


Questions

  1. How did Sant Kabir come to this, where he feels such an intense thirst?
  2. Do you get a sense of Kabir's feelings after listening to the shabad?
  3. Most people have a desire for material things. How can a desire be for something that is not material?
  4. How can one develop a desire for something that is not material?


God the Water (BoSKD 3)
Bani of Sant Kabir Das 2
Bani of Sant Kabir Das 1
 
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chazSingh

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Interesting questions Bhagat Ji,

It's a shame many of the sangat are not drawn to such discussion and are busy discussing things that in the big scheme of things do not matter at all :(

I'll try and answer your questions from my own personal experience

How did Sant Kabir come to this, where he feels such an intense thirst?
for me the thirst was always there...but my effrort didnt match...i always read gurbani, tried to understand, got confised with certain terms, got misguided by others that didnt know themselves. Found some enlightening books by sants and brahmgianis...slowly things started to make some sense...that i will have to make the effort and experience for myself. still the excuses manifested in my mind.

I wanted a good job, was thinking about marriage, many material things. most of my time was spent on this...thinking they will make me 'truely' happy. Eventualy i realised that they wouldnt...something was always missing inside...there was a yearning for god...a love i couldnt really understand where it was coming from.

Do you get a sense of Kabir's feelings after listening to the shabad?
Yes, i am so motivated to doing my 2.5 hours of amrit vela simran...no matter how tired i am...i will wake up..it's my time with god. I don't know how long my life will be...so i pray i will get to my destination in this life.

Most people have a desire for material things. How can a desire be for something that is not material?
When one makes the effort for Simran and starts to experience gurbani in their physical being, then the thirst just grows and one starts to realise that material things can not provide the same level of peace and bliss that one starts to experience during their Simran. It ignites the explorer in a person...to delve deeper and deeper into the truth.

How can one develop a desire for something that is not material?
When one starts to realise that material things and things done for self, will always crumble and rot, whereas when one does something good for someone else, the love ripples through the other person and beyond...bringing a smile to them that spreads throughout the day. It's immeasurable...what is this love that seems indistructable...lets explore :)
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Interesting questions Bhagat Ji,

It's a shame many of the sangat are not drawn to such discussion and are busy discussing things that in the big scheme of things do not matter at all :(
Ya well that's too bad. It's both ways though It's not just them but us as well. We are not drawn towards other things. We wouldn't know what we are not drawn towards.

I'll try and answer your questions from my own personal experience

How did Sant Kabir come to this, where he feels such an intense thirst?
for me the thirst was always there...but my effrort didnt match...i always read gurbani, tried to understand, got confised with certain terms, got misguided by others that didnt know themselves. Found some enlightening books by sants and brahmgianis...slowly things started to make some sense...that i will have to make the effort and experience for myself. still the excuses manifested in my mind.

I wanted a good job, was thinking about marriage, many material things. most of my time was spent on this...thinking they will make me 'truely' happy. Eventualy i realised that they wouldnt...something was always missing inside...there was a yearning for god...a love i couldnt really understand where it was coming from.
Yeah same, I mean Guru Granth Sahib is pretty difficult to understand. Only when I started meditating from Buddhist influence did I actually understand Guru Granth Sahib. But when I did, I got it in a blink.

The feeling of something missing is like a bottomless cup. The insight I had a few weeks ago was that we are this bottomless cup and to be at peace with a bottomless, empty cup was the only way to really enjoy the attempts to fill it up.

I think there is a tremendous force within us that wants to lead us to peace but we have put so many obstacles in its way. What meditation allowed me to do was to see those obstacles and work to drop them. The little things can be dropped with just a breath.

Have you seen Kung Fu Panda 2? It's a hilarious film. Basically they described three ways of finding inner peace. One was to meditate in solitude for a long time. The other was through suffering. And the last was to realize who you are. The main character goes through an elaborate journey of the last kind.

I think there is another way and that is to lose your self in the love of something else. This actually happens often but with things that are temporary. The trick is to make this happen for something that is not. And I think this is the way described in Guru Granth Sahib. jin prem kiyo tin he prabh payo Only those who love Prabhu obtained Him.

Do you get a sense of Kabir's feelings after listening to the shabad?
Yes, i am so motivated to doing my 2.5 hours of amrit vela simran...no matter how tired i am...i will wake up..it's my time with god. I don't know how long my life will be...so i pray i will get to my destination in this life.
2.5 hours? How's that like? When I do it, i only do it for like an hour. The first half hour and the last fifteen minutes are pretty cluttered, in the middle there is a lot of clarity.

Most people have a desire for material things. How can a desire be for something that is not material?
When one makes the effort for Simran and starts to experience gurbani in their physical being, then the thirst just grows and one starts to realise that material things can not provide the same level of peace and bliss that one starts to experience during their Simran. It ignites the explorer in a person...to delve deeper and deeper into the truth.
How can one develop a desire for something that is not material?
When one starts to realise that material things and things done for self, will always crumble and rot, whereas when one does something good for someone else, the love ripples through the other person and beyond...bringing a smile to them that spreads throughout the day. It's immeasurable...what is this love that seems indistructable...lets explore :)
Good answers. Nothing I can add. It is a process of waking up the bottomless cup.
 

Luckysingh

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Dec 4, 2011
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Good posts.

I think it takes a while to get a grasp of these ideas and to start some physical action on them whilst one explores deeper into self.
It makes you accept everything as we peceive it but at the same time to understand what actually matters and what doesn't.

The simple realisation of what is nirgun and sargun and even if they are dualities, it is their manifestation that needs to be understood.
Yet, you can make the dividing line between them both as thick and rigid as you want, but you can almost bring them so close so that the dividing line is barely visible.

Kabir's urge and intense thirst for the creator is mentioned throughout the bani and in this shabad.
Rather than just being love and a wanting for the lord, he expresses it here as a ''must needed thirst quencher''. -where he desperately needs the Lord water ocean for continued survival.

It is expressed as a need more than just wanting, and this is where the importance is in his expressions.

Elsewhere, Kabirji mentions the need for the bride, to be with her loving Lord husband.
Again, the difference is that the bride is not just looking for a soul mate or loving husband, but it is about re-uniting back together after being seperated.
In that manner, Kabir ji's urge and desire for Lord God is about re-emerging or re-awakening the love between them that is more intense and deeper when they are together.
Hence, the desperation and need expressed in the shabads.

Like Bhagat ji says above about the empty cup, this is how Kabirji he feels. But when it is filled and there is no empty space, then the whole world seems fullfilled and nothing around us can seem empty.
 

chazSingh

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Ya well that's too bad. It's both ways though It's not just them but us as well. We are not drawn towards other things. We wouldn't know what we are not drawn towards.
True, afterall this is a world of duality...one cannot understand or know of the experience of Hot if Cold didnt exist...actually Hot would cease to exists, no word would be needed to describe it and it wouldnt be an experience in itself.

duality runs right up to the creator himself, on one side you have Start, end and finish....and the other side you have the permanent god. We would never ever be able to experience and truely understand the permanent (god) if we didnt experience its opposite (creation)

Yeah same, I mean Guru Granth Sahib is pretty difficult to understand. Only when I started meditating from Buddhist influence did I actually understand Guru Granth Sahib. But when I did, I got it in a blink.
It's funny, just the other day we purchased a book shelp and i found so many spitiuality books that i read 4-5 years ago...at that time i didnt understand much of what they were talking about....i started reading on last night...it was like reading a new book...the understanding much deeper...much more of a connection due to having actual experience now.
Maybe when i return to them in 2 years time including the SGGS Ji, even more jewels will be released :)


I think there is a tremendous force within us that wants to lead us to peace but we have put so many obstacles in its way. What meditation allowed me to do was to see those obstacles and work to drop them. The little things can be dropped with just a breath.
very true, i think to have the experience of the temporary, we had to be almost completely shuit off from the permanent...eventually i think our soul yearns to go back...but this time with a greater understanding, love and appreciation for the permanent god having experienced it's opposite.
Simran is the key to everything...to experience the Word/Shabad that resounds within us all....the light and sound of god...it will help you jump over any hurdle.


Have you seen Kung Fu Panda 2? It's a hilarious film. Basically they described three ways of finding inner peace. One was to meditate in solitude for a long time. The other was through suffering. And the last was to realize who you are. The main character goes through an elaborate journey of the last kind.
Haven't seen it...but will definately watch it now :)

I think there is another way and that is to lose your self in the love of something else. I think this is the way described in Guru Granth Sahib. jin prem kiyo tin he prabh payo Only those who love Prabhu obtained Him.
From my experience i think there is no other way than this. Without the love the motivation, yearning, thirst doesnt well up. The love comes from deep within...of not wanting to go though any more lives to find the truth...has to be now...this life...demand it, but with Love. My most intense amrit vela simran sessions have occured when throughout day i've felt a yearning, even sadness..think they call it bhairag or something.

2.5 hours? How's that like? When I do it, i only do it for like an hour. The first half hour and the last fifteen minutes are pretty cluttered, in the middle there is a lot of clarity.
It's pretty amazing :) although only 9 months back it used to be about 30mins to 1 hour...maybe 2-3 small simran session throughout the day/at the gurdwara etc...but it wouldnt quench my thirst..i needed more...but there were too many distrubances during the day, so the night seemed the perfect opportunity while the world sleeps.
Usually takes me about 5 - 10 minutes to get into fairly deep meditiation...then it's quite deep for rest of the time...eventually the legs start to ache, some back pain (i sit on the couch for meditation) which makes me open my eyes..but then i realise 2-2.5 hours have passed.

It's only when i started doing longer sessions that i started experiencing more intense things. not sure what they really are, maybe kundalini shakti, energy pulses going through the body...they keep me awake, focused.
the other night i think i fell asleep during simran, then the energy pulse woke me...i had drule all down my mouth lol but the next hour of simran was intense :)

Keep at it, it's small steps that build up our concentration and ability to sit for long periods with a quieter mind.
Not sure how the simran affects your tiredness throughout the day. It was difficult for me at first, but now i sleep about 5 hours in total per day...and i hardly yawn during the day. My wife however gets her 8 hours, and always complains about tiredness :)
 

BhagatSingh

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True, afterall this is a world of duality...one cannot understand or know of the experience of Hot if Cold didnt exist...actually Hot would cease to exists, no word would be needed to describe it and it wouldnt be an experience in itself.

duality runs right up to the creator himself, on one side you have Start, end and finish....and the other side you have the permanent god. We would never ever be able to experience and truely understand the permanent (god) if we didnt experience its opposite (creation)
Kabir ji in a different shabad tells us to withdraw form the senses and be conscious of our consciousness. Knowing consciousness would not be possible if it weren't for the senses.
This consciousness that illuminates the universe around us, does it through our senses. This lamp of God we walk around with, when we look at it, is God experiencing Himself. The fact that there is something to be illuminated is what makes the light. If there is nothing to be illuminated, could one speak of light?

That is the duality that we are to live with. Without this duality there would be no world.

very true, i think to have the experience of the temporary, we had to be almost completely shuit off from the permanent...eventually i think our soul yearns to go back...but this time with a greater understanding, love and appreciation for the permanent god having experienced it's opposite.
Simran is the key to everything...to experience the Word/Shabad that resounds within us all....the light and sound of god...it will help you jump over any hurdle.
To see permanent and temporary as One, would be an extraordinary feat! The One light that is split by the prism of the mind.

It's pretty amazing :) although only 9 months back it used to be about 30mins to 1 hour...maybe 2-3 small simran session throughout the day/at the gurdwara etc...but it wouldnt quench my thirst..i needed more...but there were too many distrubances during the day, so the night seemed the perfect opportunity while the world sleeps.
Usually takes me about 5 - 10 minutes to get into fairly deep meditiation...then it's quite deep for rest of the time...eventually the legs start to ache, some back pain (i sit on the couch for meditation) which makes me open my eyes..but then i realise 2-2.5 hours have passed.
That sounds pretty extreme. I can get intense quiet with bursts of insight but nothing like that! I have never lost track of time during meditation. It is something I do want to experience.

It's only when i started doing longer sessions that i started experiencing more intense things. not sure what they really are, maybe kundalini shakti, energy pulses going through the body...they keep me awake, focused.
the other night i think i fell asleep during simran, then the energy pulse woke me...i had drule all down my mouth lol but the next hour of simran was intense :)

Keep at it, it's small steps that build up our concentration and ability to sit for long periods with a quieter mind.
Not sure how the simran affects your tiredness throughout the day. It was difficult for me at first, but now i sleep about 5 hours in total per day...and i hardly yawn during the day. My wife however gets her 8 hours, and always complains about tiredness :)
There's been research on this meditation actually makes one physically healthier. It improves respiration, reduces stress, and with reduction in stress we can reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases and other diseases, as reduced stress strengthens the immune system.
 

chazSingh

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That sounds pretty extreme. I can get intense quiet with bursts of insight but nothing like that! I have never lost track of time during meditation. It is something I do want to experience.
It can get pretty extreme...i try not to mention too much about experiences as each of us may have different experiences and expectation for a particular experience causes problems.

I mentioned my meditation and meditation technique to my older brother and without me knowing he started doing it also (whilst lying in bed before sleep) and he came back to me mentioning similar experiences to what i had when i started off.

Not sure what method you use but for me, sitting comfortably on a couch.... repeating "satnaam" or "waheguru" silently in my mind, and concentrating my focus/attention/surat (with eyes closed) in between the eyebrows (third eye region)...thats how i started off, and it;s been working great for me since.

Once we get better at putting out attention to the third eye region whilst using the mantra to keep our mind occupied, its then (for me anyway) that the inner light and sound (shabad) started becoming a reality...gurbani just starts to take a whole new level and meaning.

As a sangat all we can continue doing is motivating each other and learn from each other. ... god bless you on your journey


There's been research on this meditation actually makes one physically healthier. It improves respiration, reduces stress, and with reduction in stress we can reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases and other diseases, as reduced stress strengthens the immune system.
funny you mention that, since i started doing longer sessions of meditation, my resting heart rate dropped from about 75 beats per minute to about 60 beats per minute...if you look at the charts for resting heart rate thats about an athlete level....theres no way i'm as fit as an athlete :)
 

BhagatSingh

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Sometimes I jap, focusing on the sound and sometimes I focus on my breath, the rise and fall of my stomach and my sensations in my body. I tend to be in my head, thinking and contemplating all the time, So I try to balance that with bringing attention in to my body. I try to scan it back and forth. Then I withdraw my attention from that to the entity who is paying attention. At least I try to, sometimes with successful results. If I have images pop up, I immediately call out "image" in my mind and let it go. If I notice internal dialogue I say "talk" in my mind and let it go. Then I go back to the above steps.

My biggest hurdle to meditating is me noticing that I am meditating. Sometimes I'll have an insight and then notice that I am having an insight and then the insight just disappears.

funny you mention that, since i started doing longer sessions of meditation, my resting heart rate dropped from about 75 beats per minute to about 60 beats per minute...if you look at the charts for resting heart rate thats about an athlete level....theres no way i'm as fit as an athlete
:grinningsingh:
Now imagine if you exercised too. How much lower would your resting heart rate be?
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Sometimes I jap, focusing on the sound and sometimes I focus on my breath, the rise and fall of my stomach and my sensations in my body. I tend to be in my head, thinking and contemplating all the time, So I try to balance that with bringing attention in to my body. I try to scan it back and forth. Then I withdraw my attention from that to the entity who is paying attention. At least I try to, sometimes with successful results. If I have images pop up, I immediately call out "image" in my mind and let it go. If I notice internal dialogue I say "talk" in my mind and let it go. Then I go back to the above steps.
Sounds similar to what i do...the breath really helps...i sometimes do 'Wahe' breathing in, and 'guru' breathing out...

The thoughts and images that pop up...they really annoyed me...knocked me off my concentration....no whenevr they appear i just tell my mind to carry on..i'm not interested....eventually it starts to leave you alone :)

focussing on the third eye region in silence doing the mantra in mind is what really kickstarted it for me. thats when inner light would appear and when sense of body would start to become less...i have my bad days though...where the mind just won't settle (events in the day just keep popping up)

sounds like you're doing great...it's just like exercising...gets easier the more we practice.
My biggest hurdle to meditating is me noticing that I am meditating. Sometimes I'll have an insight and then notice that I am having an insight and then the insight just disappears.
this sounds kinda familiar...and still happens to me... sometimes the light used to appear in my minds eye, and even though i had my eyes closed, i would try and focus on the light with my actual eyes...would lose concentration straight away.
 

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