The Problem With Agnostics!

[Randip Singh]

Found my original post:

http://www.sikh-hist...ic;f=9;t=000402

Hi All just been watching the Star Wars films and was thinking about he uncanny resemblance between the Religion of the Jedi’s and the Sikhs:

• Jedi’s don’t believe in Material Attachment (Moh), Greed (Lobh), Lust (Kaam), Krodh (Anger), (Hankaar)Egotism or false pride. Jedi’s believe in control of these basic carnal emotions and so do Sikhs.
• Always are armed with their lightsaber (Sikhs with their Kirpan), and never parted.
• Sikh’s believe in a code of conduct and a code of dress, as do the Jedi’s;
• Sikh’s believe in protecting the weak and poor and always standing up for Justice. So do the Jedi’s;
• Jedi’s have women warrior’s , who are equals of men. So do Sikhs (Mai Bhago etc)
• Sikh’s have a Council of the wise. Sikhs have a “Panchayat” and the Panj Pyarey
• Sikh’s concept of God is formless, and is around us and within us. The idea of the “Force” is essentially the same.

Can you come up with any more similarities or am I talking gibberish?

 

[BhagatSingh]

The thing is, even an Atheist believes in some sort of higher power. His higher power is Science.

The Theist, believes in a higher power God.

The Agnostic, is neither here nor there?

Science as a higher power? I am not sure if I follow this...
What is your definition of higher power?

Back to Atheists, then if they believe in themselves, then that is their higher power.

More ??? from me...

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Found my original post:

http://www.sikh-hist...ic;f=9;t=000402

Hi All just been watching the Star Wars films and was thinking about he uncanny resemblance between the Religion of the Jedi’s and the Sikhs:

• Jedi’s don’t believe in Material Attachment (Moh), Greed (Lobh), Lust (Kaam), Krodh (Anger), (Hankaar)Egotism or false pride. Jedi’s believe in control of these basic carnal emotions and so do Sikhs.
• Always are armed with their lightsaber (Sikhs with their Kirpan), and never parted.
• Sikh’s believe in a code of conduct and a code of dress, as do the Jedi’s;
• Sikh’s believe in protecting the weak and poor and always standing up for Justice. So do the Jedi’s;
• Jedi’s have women warrior’s , who are equals of men. So do Sikhs (Mai Bhago etc)
• Sikh’s have a Council of the wise. Sikhs have a “Panchayat” and the Panj Pyarey
• Sikh’s concept of God is formless, and is around us and within us. The idea of the “Force” is essentially the same.

Can you come up with any more similarities or am I talking gibberish?

No, Randip Singh ji, you are not talking gibberish. I think many of these "advanced religions" are similar to Sikhi simply because our ideas/way of life/beliefs are advanced.

I can't help thinking of something else along the same lines, though.

When jedis go bad, you get Darth Vader.
When Sikhs go bad, you get KP- Gill.
How do they compare?

:ice:
​

 

[Randip Singh]

Science as a higher power? I am not sure if I follow this...
What is your definition of higher power?


More ??? from me...

A Higher power, is something one would use to explain (or not explain) that has occurred outside the capabilities of man.

For example my car works, I do not know how it works, but I know it is something to do with Science (combustion), which is in effect a higher power.

In this same way the Theist explains things he or she does not understand through God (as a higher power).

 

[Randip Singh]

No, Randip Singh ji, you are not talking gibberish. I think many of these "advanced religions" are similar to Sikhi simply because our ideas/way of life/beliefs are advanced.

I can't help thinking of something else along the same lines, though.

When jedis go bad, you get Darth Vader.
When Sikhs go bad, you get KP- Gill.
How do they compare?

:ice:
​

Correct.

Whenever a Sikh runs on "self will" they go to the Dark Side.

I think I mat start a seperate thread on Sikhism and Jedi belief.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Correct.

Whenever a Sikh runs on "self will" they go to the Dark Side.

I think I mat start a seperate thread on Sikhism and Jedi belief.

Great idea! Then I won't have to feel guilty about being off topic! (The Jedi Problem is quite different from the Agnostic Problem, eh?)

:ice:

 

[Lee]

Hi Lee,

Interesting view, but in Sikhism we say God is within us and we have to tune ourselves (like a radio) to realise what God is. God is in effect Truth.

Therefore is we meet these God tuned people is it not reasonable to say we have seen God?

I think in Sikhism God is for all intents and purposes like "The Force" in the Star Wars films.

If you give in to Lust, Anger, Greed, Egotism and Materialism, you are in effect trying to manipulate God....and from what I have seen, like the Star Wars films, this usually ends up in tears. Siths always betray each other.

So when I see people chosing Love (rather than lust), Patience/Tolerance (rather than Anger), Moderation (rather than Greed), Humility (rather than Egotism), and Detachment* (rather than Materialism), I see God........in the George Lucas world this is a Jedi and they all care for one another and everyone else. Like the Sikhs they are Guardians of the people.

Guru Nanak states "Higher than Truth is Truthful Living", therefore when I see people actually practicisng this truth I see God.

*Note when I say detachment I do not mean renunciation.

Hey Randip ji,

When I use the word unreasonable, I mean without objective proof. We are all subjects to such unreasonable belifes so please do not think I attach any negativity to the word.

A belife in God and a belife that no such thing a God exists are both unreasonable suppositions, but then I can live with my unreasonable belife.:yes:

 

[BhagatSingh]

Randip Singh ji

In this same way the Theist explains things he or she does not understand through God (as a higher power).

I bet I dont have to tell you that this position leads to no answer... no explanation. God cannot be considered an explanation becuase He is even more complicated than the phenomenon that you are trying to explain etc. You are left with nothing but an infinite regression.

Lee ji writes:

a belife in God and a belife that no such thing a God exists are both unreasonable suppositions, but then I can live with my unreasonable belife.

I say exactly both are unreasonable but when you say you don't know whether a God exists or not, that IS reasonable.

So referring to both your reply and Lee ji's reply:
Wouldn't an atheist/agnostic position be better than a theist position?

 

[Lee]

Randip Singh ji
I bet I dont have to tell you that this position leads to no answer... no explanation. God cannot be considered an explanation becuase He is even more complicated than the phenomenon that you are trying to explain etc. You are left with nothing but an infinite regression.

Lee ji writes:
I say exactly both are unreasonable but when you say you don't know whether a God exists or not, that IS reasonable.

So referring to both your reply and Lee ji's reply:
Wouldn't an atheist/agnostic position be better than a theist position?

Well who can judge what is better other than the individual? I would say that the agnostic stance more logical, and for some people better. But then I know plenty of people happy in their beliefe and disbelife.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Well who can judge what is better other than the individual? I would say that the agnostic stance more logical, and for some people better. But then I know plenty of people happy in their beliefe and disbelife.

I agree with what you say but here I am specifically referring to a reasonable or an unreasonable position. The agnostic/atheist position is better because it's more reasonable. I am not concerned with how happy it makes someone. Doing certain drugs (for no medical reason) makes one happy... is it reasonable to continue to do so? I don't think so. Although, I would generally agree that the individual knows themselves best but what if they are ignorant about it? You can't assume but you can't tell people to how to live their lives either, can you?

just thinking out loud

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

I cannot make sense of this discussion until we define "reasonable" and "unreasonable."

I guess some of you must get tired of my demanding definitions, but it is my experience that many arguments are caused by people using the same words and meaning different things.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Mai ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

I cannot make sense of this discussion until we define "reasonable" and "unreasonable."

And shall I add that it is a very reasonable thing to ask?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Lee]

I agree with what you say but here I am specifically referring to a reasonable or an unreasonable position. The agnostic/atheist position is better because it's more reasonable. I am not concerned with how happy it makes someone. Doing certain drugs (for no medical reason) makes one happy... is it reasonable to continue to do so? I don't think so. Although, I would generally agree that the individual knows themselves best but what if they are ignorant about it? You can't assume but you can't tell people to how to live their lives either, can you?

just thinking out loud

Baghat Ji,

Let me explian when I use the words 'reasonable, or 'unreasonable' I mean reasonable as in a belife that has logical thought, well reasoned structor behind it, and so unreasonable must be it's opposite.

To my mind any claim that 'God exists' or any claim that 'God does not exist' are both claims not founded in reason (there is no proof either way), and so both are 'unreasonable' belifes to have.

Now what I wanted to address with my last post was that the agnostic stance(I don't have enough evidance to make my mind up) is the most reasonable, or logical. However I would not call it best, best is subjective and what is best for me may not be best for others.

So I disagree I would not say that an Atheist stance is best, only that is is unreasonable, I would not say that a Theistic stance is best, only that it is unreasonable, and I would not say that an Agnostic stance is best, only that it is reasonable.

Personaly I would claim that my unreasonable theistic stance is best for me, although not best for my wife.

The real point is not to be too concerend with reason and unreason, if you belive in an unreasonable supposition and this makes you happy, then this must be best for you.