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The Gurus Were Not "chosen"

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The Gurus Were Not "chosen"

Harry Haller

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  • We mostly hear and talk about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind, and I was curious about the other 8, like how they were chosen, what happened during their reign, etc. And I was quite shocked to learn that after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood. For example sons, or uncles, or son in-laws, etc. To me that seems a bit Monarchist. Now I know they all went through their own "trials" because some had brothers who were not chosen - "because of their practice of miracles" and other sins. But still the search for the next Guru was never that far to look for - all in the family. I really find it hard to believe, that no other person (yes even female) outside the Guru's bloodline, was ever qualified to be the next Guru - to pass the torch if you will. To continue the teachings of their predecessors.
Hello dear I have read about historical books of Guru's Life and i came across answer to your first question according to me is that...
  1. When Guru Nanak was born he was not like common child who weeps and all... He smiled and had known about all the languages by birth ( Like we know about " Baabay Nu Parhan Bithaya Baaba Parha k AYA Takhti ty Likhiya EK AUNKAR"). AND same, other Guru's had something unique about there character.
  2. I think God had given a sort of mixture and a very Good message in very short lifetime and belief on only 10 Guru's (Like other religions has so many prophets we saw in muslims hindus christian etc).
  3. In history there was blood relation on passing the torch but Sikhism is different.
  4. You tell me if u had torch than whether you would pass it on your son or whether to someone else??? I think you would pass it to your son right?? if this torch you pass to someone else you must be jaelous and other ills will be there...I hope u understand my thoughts.
  5. Now What Guru's Has done they teach us that Torch they have passed to someone else who was Guru made by God and not of their own.(and their was no jaelousy, no social ills etc.)
  6. This was first teaching to us from God side.
  7. Now u said that rest were in bloodline.. So brother this is according to me another teaching for us that Guru Gobind Singh's father (Guru Teg Bahadar sahib Ji) has Given life on asking of his son. (When Guru Teg bahadar ji asked for life of Strong men for saving Hindu religion than Guru Gobind Singh tell him that who can be more brave than you?)
  8. So tell me if you and I were in that place ? than would u or I could offer the life of our's father for someone else religion safty?? NO WE CAN NEVER BCX WE HAVE NO TORCH WE ARE NOT PERFECT WE THINK FOR OURSELF FIRST AND THAN FOR OTHERS.
  9. That was another message from God side to us that normal man can't make such offers.
  10. Now come towards that why torch was passed on to SGGS? It was because that I think that God wants us to remember him through our prophets right? and not the prophets who show miracles and all that to the people and than tell them to remember me and i will give you fruits for it.( As in Hinduism you will get special thing from unique devi and devtas, In Islam you will remember God but you are still incomplete in your eman till belief in lakhs of prophets).
  11. Now Sikhism teach us not to bow down your head to any picture, any mizar etc except SGGS.
  • Reasons:
  1. SGGS is jagti Jot, it has power. Its very true we find many examples and had seen it and feel it. Whenever i have done pray in early time i have sensed smell of Karha Parshad.
  2. All the teachings in SGGS is onli about God, Like believe in God, God has all power, remember him and many many his praises only.
  3. SO WE SHOULD BOW DOWN ONLY TO THAT SAYINGS AND NOT BY CONSIDERING IT BOOK.
There is so much details realy.
Thanks i hope it helps.
errr I think this is the sort of thing that he was protesting against in the first place............
 
Jan 26, 2018
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  • We mostly hear and talk about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind, and I was curious about the other 8, like how they were chosen, what happened during their reign, etc. And I was quite shocked to learn that after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood. For example sons, or uncles, or son in-laws, etc. To me that seems a bit Monarchist. Now I know they all went through their own "trials" because some had brothers who were not chosen - "because of their practice of miracles" and other sins. But still the search for the next Guru was never that far to look for - all in the family. I really find it hard to believe, that no other person (yes even female) outside the Guru's bloodline, was ever qualified to be the next Guru - to pass the torch if you will. To continue the teachings of their predecessors.
Hello dear I have read about historical books of Guru's Life and i came across answer to your first question according to me is that...
  1. When Guru Nanak was born he was not like common child who weeps and all... He smiled and had known about all the languages by birth ( Like we know about " Baabay Nu Parhan Bithaya Baaba Parha k AYA Takhti ty Likhiya EK AUNKAR"). AND same, other Guru's had something unique about there character.
    He knew ALL languages by Birth? Did that include English, Spanish, French, German, languages spoken in African tribes. I'm sorry I've never heard that quote about Guru Nanak before, and find that even harder to believe. It seems more of those "fables" that you tell little kids to show how impressive and great the Gurus were. By Birth? so was Mata Tripta reciting foreign words while in her womb??
  2. I think God had given a sort of mixture and a very Good message in very short lifetime and belief on only 10 Guru's (Like other religions has so many prophets we saw in muslims hindus christian etc).
    So you bring God into this discussion. My claim is that the Gurus decided themselves. But you say God. Let me ask you this. Do you agree that the idea and belief of God has been around for 1000s of years, even before Guru Nanak. So, after "God" creates Christianity, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist, Hinduism, he decides to take a break for some hundreds of plus years, and then BOOM in the 1500s he chooses 10 "prophets"?
  3. In history there was blood relation on passing the torch but Sikhism is different.
    How is it different?
  4. You tell me if u had torch than whether you would pass it on your son or whether to someone else??? I think you would pass it to your son right?? if this torch you pass to someone else you must be jaelous and other ills will be there...I hope u understand my thoughts.
    Would I pass the "torch" to my son? So according to you, if I understand you correctly, I should just give it to my son, because he's my son? That's all credential is required? This passing of the "torch" influences the identity, beliefs, and lives of many many people. And if I pass the torch to say a third person, then my son will get jealous? Not sure I really follow your thoughts.
  5. Now What Guru's Has done they teach us that Torch they have passed to someone else who was Guru made by God and not of their own.(and their was no jaelousy, no social ills etc.)
  6. This was first teaching to us from God side.
    Again, you're saying that God decided the Gurus? You said you've read History books on the gurus, from what I read, they made the decisions. What I'm just posting is that there was no divine choice, or God selection.
  7. Now u said that rest were in bloodline.. So brother this is according to me another teaching for us that Guru Gobind Singh's father (Guru Teg Bahadar sahib Ji) has Given life on asking of his son. (When Guru Teg bahadar ji asked for life of Strong men for saving Hindu religion than Guru Gobind Singh tell him that who can be more brave than you?)
  8. So tell me if you and I were in that place ? than would u or I could offer the life of our's father for someone else religion safty?? NO WE CAN NEVER BCX WE HAVE NO TORCH WE ARE NOT PERFECT WE THINK FOR OURSELF FIRST AND THAN FOR OTHERS.
    My History is probably still beginner at best, I've only read parts here n there. So according to what you said, Guru Gobind Singh told his father (Guru Teg Bahadar) he should sacrifice himself. Excuse my language but that's kinda {censored} of Guru Gobind Singh. "We have no torch, so we are not perfect"? And you said we don't think for others but ourselves. What about our kids. Parents would sacrifice their lives easily for their kids. Go into a burning fire to rescue them, give them blood, anything to see their children live and be happy.
    What you're saying is kind of the opposite. The Son is asking his father to sacrifice himself. Now the way history portrays Guru Gobind Singh, he's supposed to be a brave soldier, why didn't he offer himself to be sacrificed. Regardless, though the act might be noble, my opinion, it was pointless. How thankful were the Hindus truly towards Sikhs.
    But when you mentioned bloodline, you only mentioned the last two Gurus, what bout the previous ones.
  9. That was another message from God side to us that normal man can't make such offers.
    Us "normal" men? This comment seems little disrespectful, to me at least. I don't even know where to begin, to respond to that.
  10. Now come towards that why torch was passed on to SGGS? It was because that I think that God wants us to remember him through our prophets right? and not the prophets who show miracles and all that to the people and than tell them to remember me and i will give you fruits for it.( As in Hinduism you will get special thing from unique devi and devtas, In Islam you will remember God but you are still incomplete in your eman till belief in lakhs of prophets).
    Again you say God. I thought it was Guru Gobind Singh who made that decision, or was it God talking through the body of Guru Gobind Singh.
  11. Now Sikhism teach us not to bow down your head to any picture, any mizar etc except SGGS.
    Ok so?
  • Reasons:
  1. SGGS is jagti Jot, it has power. Its very true we find many examples and had seen it and feel it. Whenever i have done pray in early time i have sensed smell of Karha Parshad.
  2. All the teachings in SGGS is onli about God, Like believe in God, God has all power, remember him and many many his praises only.
  3. SO WE SHOULD BOW DOWN ONLY TO THAT SAYINGS AND NOT BY CONSIDERING IT BOOK.
There is so much details realy.
Thanks i hope it helps.

I guess my point in this topic is that, the History books, the lessons, people such as yourself believe that the Gurus were selected by some divine being (God). And that the selection was not up to the Gurus.
I disagree, and I don't believe there was any God involvement, if fact it took a female human being (Bibi Bhani) to forever change the selection process.
 
Jan 26, 2018
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Dear Brother!
I can understand your feelings. Its not actually your fault its because lack of knowledge with the parents. Your parents had less knowledge to teach you enough about Sikhism.
If you really want to do something right in ur life than i will say please please follow Sikhism. Follow that religion in which you are born. if you were muslim i would have suggest you to go on way what islam teach u. Our Guru Nanak teach us that Religions are only ways ( KOI BOLAY RAM RAM KOI KHUDAYE KOI SAWAY GUSSAEYAN KOI ALLAH E).
BELIEVE IN GOD IS FIRST THING IN ANY RELIGION. HOW YOU CAN REFUSE ABOUT HIS EXISTANCE THERE ARE MANY THINGS THIS WORLD PLANETS LIFE ON EARTH IS PROOF OF HIS EXISTANCE.
I want to make sure I understand you. It's not my fault, its my parents. But what am I wrong about? or what are they wrong about? Just because I question Sikhi, the Gurus, and how it all came to be, and still...if in the end I don't agree with it all, then am I wrong? To me it seems you're no different than any other Sikh person I've met in real life. It seems your knowledge and experience, is based on what you've been taught, or read from books. But let me ask you this, do you follow everything you've been taught about the Sikh religion blindly, or have you ever questioned anything ever?

"If I want to do something right in my life, then I should follow Sikhism" - again, so if I don't follow it, then I must be wrong. Since I was born into a Sikh family, I must and only follow Sikhism. OR, if I was born a muslim then follow Islam. So we don't have a choice at all, is what you're saying. Isn't this an old-way of thinking?

The last part of your comment is about God again. God is a whole other topic. This post was about the Gurus. If you want to debate over God, I'd be happy to share my thoughts on a different post.
 

sukhsingh

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Some questions are probably better off not asked, your asking why the Gurus did what they did, how can anyone answer this? How can I say, yeah sure he saw something else, and this is what it was, I don't know, no one knows, however questioning the judgement of a Sikh Guru, is probably not going to win you any fans, they were perfect, so we have to assume they had their reasons, any debate that ends with the conclusion that an action of a Guru was wrong throws the whole foundations of Sikhism open, some topics I guess are too holy for questions, I would say this is one of them, there are plenty of other good questions, I would lie if I were to say I had never had the same thoughts and questions, but tread carefully, your now directly questioning the reasoning and logic of the Gurus, some things I guess we just have to accept, it is a fact that the tenth Guru decided to convey the future Guruship to the SGGS, for me it stops there, thats what he did, he must have had his reasons, what those reasons were is unlikely to assist us in our search for the truth as it is impossible to answer.
All questions asked should be answered .
 

sukhsingh

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All the gurus after guru ram das ji were related.. But I don't think it holds true that their existed nepotism.. That may well be a valid question but also one that requires a deep dive to suggest that it is or was something wrong
 

Jasdeep118

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Guru Amardas might have broken the norm of marrying his daughter to an "outsider", but what did the Gurus after him do. This was a monarchy.

I ask you all, because I couldn't find and confirm the dates, but when and really why did Guru Gobind stop the continuation of physical gurus. Was it that there was no more male members in the families to pass the "torch". Before he made this decision, had his sons already been captures or killed?

And if someone disagrees that this wasn't a Monarch, I would like to hear your argument. A lot of us are taught about the existence about God when we are little children, and as we grow, we learn about the gurus, and 5ks, etc. Along the way never really questioning, and if you do, most likely you got a angry response that you can't disrespect or question the Gurus or their teachings.

Religion requires you to follow it blindly, but I'm sorry I only have this one life. No one will ever ever prove that Reincarnation exists or that Heaven/Hell exists. So while I'm here, I want to know that a lived a true life, and did good by my family and people around me. And if in my search to find some truth, my questions seems a little offensive, then so be it. Maybe most Sikhs never think this way (how I do), they could be brainwashed into thinking that Sikh teachings are only the best, and no one can question it - but isn't that Pride or Ego, anyhow.
Well, us Sikh's don't believe in heaven or hell. I just feel that if our religion promoted an afterlife people who just do good deeds on the sake of making it to heaven, but in our religion Guru Nanak, never mentioned that there is heaven or hell, and that we get a reward. He is just saying that we should just do good deeds, and just leave a good mark on this world, and after that we just merge into god. Like a water droplet in an ocean, I mean for me I don't believe in the afterlife, the only thing I believe is that we just get reborn in order to fix our mistakes. For the Guru lineage, I just think that Guru Nanak didn't care if he wanted to have a lineage, and wanted different believe, but I think after Guru Amar Das something fishy happened. For me I just think that in this modern era, people only care about the later Gurus who were more militaristic. Well, Guru Nanak didn't say he represented God, he said that he was just a humble servant god who was just wanted to seek the mysteries of god. I just think that if Guru Nanak was here, and just saw the Guru lineage, I just think he might've opposed it, in my opinion. Sorry if I was late
 

Jasdeep118

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The issue is with people thinking that the Guru's of being godlike, is with the people, the Guru's never said that they were godmen, infact when I do Chapuai Sahib they say that, I don't have the exact quote, but it says that Prophet Mohammed, Vedas, Shiva, think they are representatives of god, but we shouldn't accept with it. The issue is that we are doing the things that Guru Nanak told us not, such as Idol worship. We keep photos of our Ten Guru's in our homes such as mine, and we bow down to them, which I think is a form of idol worship. We should only worship to god, which I often thought to myself, we can bow to any direction we want. Like Guru Nanak who was in Mecca, he was praying in a different direction then how Muslim's do. One of them asked why did Guru Nanak did such as a thing because he said that God was everywhere. Let me tell you I ain't some old guy, I am the younger generation I am a 15 year old humble Gursikh who is even though he is a Mona and has a jatt last name, I am trying to remove that. I am trying to be a true sick, and try to get out of this superstition and such. I just want to be reconnected with Sikhi, and not worship to a bunch of godmen or portraits. I just want to worship with God. I am the same thing as you TruthSiker31, I have often doubted things such as God, but for some reason. I could never conclude I was an Atheist, which is why I consider myself an Agnostic Panentheist or Theist. Whenever I just prayed and just prayed for something good, they always come true, sure it could be coincidence, but they are just real. I just say that the Universe is just so beautiful, how are we this lucky? Most of them you hear of distance planets being destroyed and such by meteor's, dwarf stars, and etc, but for earth we are lucky. Every time we have close calls with solar flares, and meteors passing near us, how do we survive.

One last thing, I just don't know why people think that the Guru's were superheros? They are just regular old people who were the humble servants of God, trying to liberate them selves. Honestly, it just drives me bonkers, like how people say that wearing a Kara give's you superpowers, or how people walk around the Guru Granth, I just feel that it is ritualism.
 

dalvindersingh grewal

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Q. 'what happened during their reign, etc'
Did the Gurus reign? Were they kings? A new shocker. As far as I know they were spiritual luminaries par excellence.

Q. 'after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood'. May be that Bibi Bhani's request being granted but no where it is mentioned that all the later gurus were to be selected from among blood relations. If we study the qualitative aspects all the following gurus are found equally capable in spiritual excellence, however genealogy was not strictly followed. There were others in succession from among blood relations like Pirthi Chand who were left out since they did not meet the qualitative requirements.
Q. To say that Guru Gobind Singh opted for Sabd Guru because he lost all his sons also appears to be misnomer. There were other Sodhis among the blood relations who could have been chosen instead. The selection of Sabd guru as the eternal guru was well thought out well before from the time of the earlier guru who have been giving the importance not to the physical aspect but to the written words.
 

Admin Singh

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If you still don't understand the relevance, then you may never understand it, no matter how hard anybody tries...
 
Jan 26, 2018
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Q. 'what happened during their reign, etc'
Did the Gurus reign? Were they kings? A new shocker. As far as I know they were spiritual luminaries par excellence.

Q. 'after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood'. May be that Bibi Bhani's request being granted but no where it is mentioned that all the later gurus were to be selected from among blood relations. If we study the qualitative aspects all the following gurus are found equally capable in spiritual excellence, however genealogy was not strictly followed. There were others in succession from among blood relations like Pirthi Chand who were left out since they did not meet the qualitative requirements.
Q. To say that Guru Gobind Singh opted for Sabd Guru because he lost all his sons also appears to be misnomer. There were other Sodhis among the blood relations who could have been chosen instead. The selection of Sabd guru as the eternal guru was well thought out well before from the time of the earlier guru who have been giving the importance not to the physical aspect but to the written words.
It may not be mentioned anywhere that the Gurus HAD to be selected from blood relations, but that's what happened didn't it. So then wouldn't that give Bibi Bhani's request some truth. You said though they were of blood relations, it didn't affect their ability to be of spiritual excellence. Here's my argument. The title of this post is that the Guru's were not "chosen". And when I say chosen, I mean chosen by God. We put the Guru's on a God Like platform, and connect everything they did (taught lessons, performed miracles, etc.) to God. Truth is the Guru's were personally selected by each Guru for their predecessor, and they chose that of blood relation, and to me that is a form of Monarchy. How can anyone argue that our religion was not created from a form of Monarchism.

Other individuals may have contributed to verses or scripts in the Guru Granth Sahib, but you never hear of them that much. They don't have their birth or death celebrated or remembered. Yet each Guru is remembered individually. So my thinking was, before I keep committing myself, and my kids future to Sikhi, I wanted to know the History. At first I didn't know that the majority of the Guru's were related. I knew Guru Teg Bahadur and Guru Gobind were father/son, but didn't know the others were to. So how is this equality. A monarchy is no way a fair or equal system in which to live in. The people couldn't decide if the Guru's selections was correct or not. Who gave the Guru's the power to select ... God? Really? Doesn't seem like it, at least not to me.
 
Jan 26, 2018
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If you still don't understand the relevance, then you may never understand it, no matter how hard anybody tries...
You claim the story of Bibi Bhani to be false. Instead of hiding behind quotes, just give real facts or examples to support your claim.
Found this on a website:

*****Soche Soch Na Hovai Je Sochi Lakh Var
Chupe Chup Na Hovai Je Lai Raha(n) Liv Tar
Bhukhia(n) Bhukh Na Utari Je Banna(n) Puria(n) Bhar
Sahas Sianpa Lakh Hohi Ta Ik Na Chale Nal
Kiv Sachiara Hoiai Kiv Kurai Tute Pal
Hukam Rajai Chalna Nanak Likhiya Nal


Thinking does not reach belief, if one thinks a million times
Prolonged silence and meditation does not quieten the mind
Hunger (Greed) cannot be satisfied even with loads of food (wealth)
At the time of death intellectual smartness also stays behind
How can then we realize the Truth and destroy fibs
Says Nanak live with His Divine Will

Guru Nanak lays emphasis on living a life based on Truth. Guru Nanak's Hukam Razai Chalna is placed in the Japji Sahib as the First Commandment. This commandment implies total surrender of oneself to the Supreme. This commandment of surrender is given after Guru Nanak introduces the fallacy of performing cursory rituals.*****

So are you saying "live a life based on Truth". Fine, that's nice and all, but how are you proving that Bibi Bhani story is false. And if it is truly false, then why was it told. If you're going to say Sikh history also contains fables, myths, falsehoods then how is Sikhism different from religions like Hinduism or Christianity. If the word of God, or whats written in Guru Granth Sahib is final and perfect, then why the need for your fables like Bibi Bhani or Baba Deep Singh. Why twist words and create unnecessary conflicts and debates. Is the story of Guru Nanak squeezing the two rotis where one produced milk and the other blood, also false? After all the Guru's did perform types of miracles right, so this could be true to (like Jesus creating Wine outta water). Or is it all B.S.

If you or others alike are going to say this was false, or this meant something else, then Sikhi becomes no different than any other religion. To me it seems like you're defending the Guru's decisions on selecting Gurus, by discrediting a part of history.
 
Apr 25, 2006
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What is your point?

So what if Guru Ram Das ji onwards Gurgaddi was passed within the family? Even Guru Tegh Bahadur ji was from the same family, he was the son of Guru Hari Gobind ji.

Guru Gobind Singh ji did not pass on the Gurgaddi to his sons since they were martyred. So what if he didn't? He decided to pass the Gurgaddi to the word of the Saints. So what if he did?

What are you trying to say?
 
Apr 25, 2006
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According to Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaaran 1 Pauri 48 , sikhs had asked Guru Hargobind how many gurus would come after him.

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਧਰੇ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੪੮॥

Jougi Jougi Satiguru Dharay Avataaree ॥48॥

Four more Gurus will come to earth (yuga 2, yuga 2 i.e. 2+2=4)

From Punjabi teeka ਪਰੰਤੂ ਹੋਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ‘ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗ’ (ਦੋ ਦੂਣੀ ਚਾਰ ਯਾ ੨+੨=੪) ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨਗੇ।

One definition of jug is 2 or a pair. Also Guru Har Rai and Guru Har Krishan are a pair. Guru Tegh Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh are a pair (father and son).
We must be careful here and pay attention to the grammar.

The word here is not Jug or Yug but Yuge.
ਜੁਗਿ Yuge means in the Yug, in the age, in the era.

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ yuge yuge - in each age, in each era...

So Guru Hari Gobind ji is not giving the number of Gurus that will be follow him. In fact he is saying the Gurus will constantly arrive on this earth in each and every age.

And he is not just referring to Sikh Gurus, but the arrival of all kinds of Spiritual Masters all over the world.

This is the Order that God has revealed to the Saints.
 
Jan 26, 2018
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What is your point?

So what if Guru Ram Das ji onwards Gurgaddi was passed within the family? Even Guru Tegh Bahadur ji was from the same family, he was the son of Guru Hari Gobind ji.

Guru Gobind Singh ji did not pass on the Gurgaddi to his sons since they were martyred. So what if he didn't? He decided to pass the Gurgaddi to the word of the Saints. So what if he did?

What are you trying to say?
My title for the post is that they weren't chosen. "Chosen" being not chosen by God. But yet me make out everything that the Guru's did was because of God's will. You're saying whats the big deal, if they did take it upon themselves? The gurus weren't just teachers, or priest-like. They were leaders, military leaders. People followed them, listened to them, gave their lives to the gurus. If you take out God and religion from this, then what do you have - a Monarchy. But then everyone is going to claim, so what if it was "monarchistic". They guru's were virtuous , they taught the truth, all was goody-goody. So lets take today's current world. Are any of you okay with the concept of a Monarch gov't. You mean to tell me, in the times of the Gurus there were no other true-righteous persons who could have taken the "throne".

Guru Hargobind by passes his own son (Guru Tegh Bahadur) and choose his grandson Guru Har Rai. Guru Har Rai was 14 when he took over, and Guru Teg Bahadur during that year was 23 years old. And reason why Guru Tegh Bahadur was not 'chosen" because he wasn't ready to lead men, probably lead for battle. Yet a 14 yr old is ready, quite interesting. Then at the age of 31 Guru Har Rai declares his youngest son (Guru Harkrishan) to be the next guru at the age of 5. FIVE!!! Amazing. A five a year old was chosen. Tell me was that God's will or a desperate father's choice to keep it within the family, because his older son (13 yrs of age) was excommunicated from Sikhi.

If you believe a monarch system is wrong, then the Guru's were wrong to.
 

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