The Gurus Were Not "chosen"

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Truthsikher31, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    We mostly hear and talk about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind, and I was curious about the other 8, like how they were chosen, what happened during their reign, etc. And I was quite shocked to learn that after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood. For example sons, or uncles, or son in-laws, etc. To me that seems a bit Monarchist. Now I know they all went through their own "trials" because some had brothers who were not chosen - "because of their practice of miracles" and other sins. But still the search for the next Guru was never that far to look for - all in the family. I really find it hard to believe, that no other person (yes even female) outside the Guru's bloodline, was ever qualified to be the next Guru - to pass the torch if you will. To continue the teachings of their predecessors.

    History is pretty clear that religious history (Sikh, Hindus, Muslim, Jewish, Christians) was male dominated. But then again, most of history was.

    My timings might be off but when Guru Gobind declared that there shall be no other physical Guru, and that what was in the SGGS was final, was that after or before he lost his sons. The reason I ask this is because, was his decision to end the line of Gurus because the didn't have anyone he "trusted" that was blood related to pass the "torch" to? Or did he for-see something else.
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    Some questions are probably better off not asked, your asking why the Gurus did what they did, how can anyone answer this? How can I say, yeah sure he saw something else, and this is what it was, I don't know, no one knows, however questioning the judgement of a Sikh Guru, is probably not going to win you any fans, they were perfect, so we have to assume they had their reasons, any debate that ends with the conclusion that an action of a Guru was wrong throws the whole foundations of Sikhism open, some topics I guess are too holy for questions, I would say this is one of them, there are plenty of other good questions, I would lie if I were to say I had never had the same thoughts and questions, but tread carefully, your now directly questioning the reasoning and logic of the Gurus, some things I guess we just have to accept, it is a fact that the tenth Guru decided to convey the future Guruship to the SGGS, for me it stops there, thats what he did, he must have had his reasons, what those reasons were is unlikely to assist us in our search for the truth as it is impossible to answer.
     
  4. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur Writer SPNer Supporter

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    This reminds me of mathematics. Every mathematical system begins with axioms, statements accepted as true without proof, and undefined terms. Without these, nothing can be accomplished. With these, whole systems can be developed, everything from Euclidean geometry to analytical algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold. (I don't know what it means, either. It's from a Tom Lehrer song.) The systems with the fewest axioms and undefined terms are considered "elegant."

    The same is true of Sikhi. The perfection of the Gurus is the underlying axiom of the whole Sikh system. I cannot prove this perfection, but without it, everything falls apart. One of Sikhi's greatest strengths is that it has so few axioms. The only other one that comes to mind off-hand is the Mool Mantar. I am myself so far from being a totally realized, perfect human being that I cannot even begin to guess or to understand the motivations of Gurus. I don't especially like this, but there it is.
     
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  5. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Thanks Harry,
    It was Bibi Bhani, who upon preventing her father - Guru Amar Das's meditation from being disturbed, was given one wish that the Guru would grant. She asked that the Guru-ship hence forth stay with in the "Sodhi" bloodline. I'm sure there's plenty of sites that can detail this, but this is one that I found, that tells the story:

    Bibi Bhani and the platform | SikhNet

    Firstly to me the "platform" story seems like a nice bedtime story, it could be real - I don't know. But I do find it hard to believe a person (Guru) can be so deep in meditation (trying to be one with God), that you don't feel your own daughter's hand being pressed/cut open. He can feel and connect with God, but can't detect his daughters pain. Interesting. To me stories like these are told to provide how great the Gurus were, how much devoted they were to their "faith". But what about another story like "Baba Deep Singh", really?!?! As kids we were all told the story of Baba Deep Singh. Oh his love for the Guru was so great that he would only die at the feet of the Guru. In the meant time he picks up his severed head and battles on through. I don't think this is one of those stories that - "oh its told like this but really it happened this way or just has a hidden meaning". I think, as part of Sikh History, that most Sikhs believe this really happened, they even have paintings of his bravery. If the meaning or truth behind it is different, then why paint such a portrait.

    But back to the Guru's bloodline. Even Guru Amar Das warned his daughter of such a wish, that it could lead to conflicts and suffering. Now he probably really thought the Sodhi's had the strength to carry this responsibility, but as we all know, the Guru's that were the successors each had families of their own, each had multiple kids. Of which did create jealousy and hate amongst the siblings and other relatives alike. I'm aware that the next chosen Guru had to prove themselves with obedience, dedication, all the requirements to being a Guru/Leader. But please think what I'm about to say next. Most of the Guruship was passed down to their son's (Guru Teg Bahadur might be the exception). So now if you're the Guru, and here you have your son's in front of you. And you know at some point you must choose your successor. But what if the "choice" was the not the best choice, but rather the best of what was given to them. So say all the son's for one guru were not really qualified, but he still has to choose within the family (so kinda like lesser of two evils?). And now most of you will argue that the choices were good, because those Guru's that were selected did good, were good, etc. But what if there was someone better, someone outside the bloodline. You had plenty of followers who were just as devoted. But with all the Guru's grand vision, they couldn't look outside their own family. Isn't that the meaning of a Monarchy. To rule, and to pass that Rule down the bloodline?

    In today's world, majority of the world don't believe in or follow Monarchies (ok N. Korea but come on, its own people hate their leader). But still could you imagine, if today's political leaders kept passing the torch within their families, and as a society we could never have the opportunity to make a change?

    Harry you said the Guru's were perfect. If they were perfect, and thus so should their bloodlines, but yet some of the family members were consumed by jealousy, greed, power hungry. So then how can someone who's pure and perfect create imperfections. Was it their wives faults? The Guru's never even considered their daughters to be leaders. Why not? Prolly b/c those times were pretty sexist, and not truly equal among the sexes.

    The Gurus were not God chosen, or it was destiny. They were selected by simple human men, who sought to keep it within the family. And who knows by doing so maybe provided security for the generations to come. Being a Guru or a member of the Guru's family must have had it's share of perks. You probably had a comfortable life. Even has kids, they probably had servants, personal military/combat trainers, and not to forget the public who would serve the bloodline. Is it wrong for me to say the Guru's lived a luxury and king-like lifestyle.

    Why is it now, in today's time it's some what acceptable to question Sikhi (teachings, rules - 5ks, definition of a sikh, etc.) but its like blasphemy to question those who created it? If you disagree, great. But bring different thoughts (go outside the box). Try not giving textbook answers. That's what reading is for lol. After all, if "God" gave us this perfect body, then the mind would be such a waste if we never question, would it not.

    P.S. This last part wasn't directed at you Harry, I just want to hear more from the rest of SPN. Seems like its the same responders in each posts/threads.
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    I would not take anything on this site too seriously, Sikhnet is owned by the 3HO corporation, which has a slightly distorted version of Sikhism, this is their website, 3HO Foundation

    see how many times you can see the word Sikh

    I agree, use your own intellect and logic to discern what is true, and what is not, we have a common saying on this website, does it pass the litmus test? The litmus test means does it back up with Sikh philosophy, on that basis, as far as I can see, no Guru had multiple marriages, no Guru had earings, (as is commonly depicted), no Guru performed miracles, and so forth, these are my own opinions, as a non Sikh, but looking at it from a clear head, it would appear a lot of the Sakhis have been spun a line, but then, how could they not be, they are very old stories, and if each person only changed one minute detail when passing it on, you are left with very little of the original.

    Yes, I suppose they encourage people to have faith in their faith, or maybe they did, a long time ago, unfortunately the world is now full of people like me and you, who question and question, we look at the emperor, and exclaim loudly, 'he is not wearing any clothes' while everyone else argues about the finery and style of the outfit.

    Well, if we were to use common sense and logic, close your eyes, and go back to that time, I would imagine he suffered quite a serious neck wound, but carried on fighting, which over time, changed into the story that is currently about. Now before we congratulate ourselves on our wisdom and discretion, we should not forget that we cannot possibly know the truth, but on balance, the probability is that he had a deep neck wound. And here we get to the interesting point, it is human nature to exclaim loudly and shout from the rooftops that people are believing nonsense, and that my friend is why I am now a non Sikh, not because I do not love Sikhism, but because I love Sikhism so much that it is not for me to cast doubt, or change opinion, who the hell am I, a man that has danced with the devil all his life, to question paintings and history, in my heart, I have an idea of Sikhism, but it is so far fetched from the what passes that I do not have the energy or the time to argue and debate, however, I am happy to chat to a likeminded soul. Also you are not taking into account a lot of factors of the time, the Sikhs were having the shit kicked out of them, we needed heroes, we needed stories, we needed inspiration, maybe we even needed paintings, its easy for us to sit here in our warm houses behind a keyboard postulating this and that, but the reality is we cannot even comprehend what life was like then for Sikhs.

    Well, this only holds if the story is true, I did not believe the story to be true, so the question leading from that to me is irrelevant, no, I do not believe that the Gurus chose from within their families to respect a diktat by Guru Amar Das, I think it just panned out that way. If they did, then it starts to upset the litmus test, and as my sister rightly pointed out above, you have to have some faith in foundations, otherwise the whole thing comes crashing down, but that is my personal belief, personal to me.

    hahah, why? my mother and father are pretty perfect, they are good, good people, just really nice people, with no interest in dancing with the devil, in fact, they are so good, that anyone else would have disowned me by now, I did not just dance with the devil, I ran away with him to Gretna Green, and we got married, still, they accept, love, nuture and cherish me, yet I came from their bloodline.....

    Well, I think we can all safely say that Guru Nanak did not, and as Sikhs believe that the light of Guru Nanak shone through all the Gurus, that they were all in fact the same, then the litmus test says no, I think by the time of the tenth Guru, he felt it important to show the world that Sikhs were not fakirs, or tramps, that they had culture, style, presence, I do not believe they lived like kings, I believe they were humble and did what they had to do to bring about change, in whatever way they felt appropriate, I put any king like stories down to the Sakhi culture, a true king, a proper king serves his people more than he serves himself, a real king would have to be dragged to the throne, because it is a job of responsibility, of nurture, not of gain. Real Kings do not give a toss about finery or luxury, all they care about is the welfare of their subjects. In my opinion all the Gurus were real kings.

    Well, with respect, although you are questioning, you are not questioning those who created it, you are questioning the truth about those who created it, there is a difference, I live by the litmus test, the Gurus were perfect and they had a message to impart to the world, they lived as they preached, so any story that does not run on that road is probably {censored}. However, a great many people believe stories, but that is their right.
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    This Shabad is from Bhatvani in the SGGS, our only Guru, on page 968. ‘The miracle’ is that Guru Amardas broke the tradition of good khandaan, dynasty- the norms of the day till today and married his daughter to Bhai Jetha. He later came to be known as Guru Ramdas, who used to sell Gungniha to make a living. This is the reason we have Gungniha- black chic peas prasad.
    Sadly, till today, we look for bloodlines, palmlines and in search of this, we miss the most important line- the Heartline even after our 3rd Guru chose that almost 500 years ago.

    The English translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa

    ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਤਿਨੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Ḏẖan ḏẖan Rāmḏās gur jin siri▫ā ṯinai savāri▫ā.
    Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You.

    ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Pūrī ho▫ī karāmāṯ āp sirjaṇhārai ḏẖāri▫ā.
    Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne.

    ਸਿਖੀ ਅਤੈ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Sikẖī aṯai sangṯī pārbarahm kar namaskāri▫ā.
    The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You.

    ਅਟਲੁ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ਤੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Atal athāhu aṯol ṯū ṯerā anṯ na pārāvāri▫ā.
    You are unchanging, unfathomable and immeasurable; You have no end or limitation.

    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Jinĥī ṯūʼn sevi▫ā bẖā▫o kar se ṯuḏẖ pār uṯāri▫ā.
    Those who serve You with love - You carry them across.

    ਲਬੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਢੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਪਰਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Lab lobẖ kām kroḏẖ moh mār kadẖe ṯuḏẖ saparvāri▫ā.
    Greed, envy, sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment - You have beaten them and driven them out.

    ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਥਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੈਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Ḏẖan so ṯerā thān hai sacẖ ṯerā paiskāri▫ā.
    Blessed is Your place, and True is Your magnificent glory.

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੂ ਲਹਣਾ ਤੂਹੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਤੂ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥
    Nānak ṯū lahṇā ṯūhai gur amar ṯū vīcẖāri▫ā.
    You are Nanak, You are Angad, and You are Amar Daas; so do I recognize You.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਤਾਂ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਧਾਰਿਆ ॥੭॥
    Gur diṯẖā ṯāʼn man sāḏẖāri▫ā. ||7||
    When I saw the Guru, then my mind was comforted and consoled. ||7||
     
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  8. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Guru Amardas might have broken the norm of marrying his daughter to an "outsider", but what did the Gurus after him do. This was a monarchy.

    I ask you all, because I couldn't find and confirm the dates, but when and really why did Guru Gobind stop the continuation of physical gurus. Was it that there was no more male members in the families to pass the "torch". Before he made this decision, had his sons already been captures or killed?

    And if someone disagrees that this wasn't a Monarch, I would like to hear your argument. A lot of us are taught about the existence about God when we are little children, and as we grow, we learn about the gurus, and 5ks, etc. Along the way never really questioning, and if you do, most likely you got a angry response that you can't disrespect or question the Gurus or their teachings.

    Religion requires you to follow it blindly, but I'm sorry I only have this one life. No one will ever ever prove that Reincarnation exists or that Heaven/Hell exists. So while I'm here, I want to know that a lived a true life, and did good by my family and people around me. And if in my search to find some truth, my questions seems a little offensive, then so be it. Maybe most Sikhs never think this way (how I do), they could be brainwashed into thinking that Sikh teachings are only the best, and no one can question it - but isn't that Pride or Ego, anyhow.
     
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  9. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    Truthsikher31 - Good morning,

    I hope you'd allow me the liberty to make few preliminary inquiries:
    1. the name truthsikher is interesting, what kind of truth in particular would you be seeking/sikhing ? By that I mean there are number of different truths, for example, arithmetical, geometrical, logical, metaphysical, etc ?
    2. what do you understand by the term Guru as used in Sikh Faith/literature ?
    Thank you
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  10. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Thanks a lot for bringing here this question, I have been wondering the same, but never took the time and space to ask properly.
     
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  11. FilledToTheBrim

    FilledToTheBrim SPNer

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    According to Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaaran 1 Pauri 48 , sikhs had asked Guru Hargobind how many gurus would come after him.

    ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਧਰੇ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੪੮॥

    Jougi Jougi Satiguru Dharay Avataaree ॥48॥

    Four more Gurus will come to earth (yuga 2, yuga 2 i.e. 2+2=4)

    From Punjabi teeka ਪਰੰਤੂ ਹੋਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ‘ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗ’ (ਦੋ ਦੂਣੀ ਚਾਰ ਯਾ ੨+੨=੪) ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨਗੇ।

    One definition of jug is 2 or a pair. Also Guru Har Rai and Guru Har Krishan are a pair. Guru Tegh Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh are a pair (father and son).
     
  12. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    I'm sorry I don't get your response. Are you saying that Guru Hargobind should get the credit for stopping at 10 gurus, and not Guru Gobind Singh? Ok fine. But that's not what I've been posting. You still prove my point that the Gurus weren't really chosen.
     
  13. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Pretty much from childhood to my college years, and even into my own marriage/family life, I've always questioned myself the existence of God. Some of my cousins are Amritari, and I would have conversations with them as they are quite involved in Sikhi, and often teach the youth at our Gurdwara. I never really got the answer I would seek, and mostly would get an explanation that was taught to them. But being in Punjabi/Sikh community, I never took my questions/curiousity to the next level. Just getting the basic answers and not thinking twice. But I believe once I started my career, and getting the chance to work with people of different backgrounds (religion, sexuality, beliefs, etc.) I really started to think of my faith, religion, and what do I really believe in. This really kicked in more, when we had our son last year. Do I teach him the same path that I've grown up with? My feeling towards religion and God has changed quite a bit in the last 10 yrs. These days, I'm leading towards Atheism, but I wanted to make sure what I was leaving behind was true or false.

    Most of you probably already know that 10+ years ago, information was not easily obtained or shared. Tech/Internet has made the world smaller than our parents generations. Up til now I've mostly lived under my parents rule, and been influenced by the Sikh community. So what ever questions we had, we sought to these "sources". Even if the answer was not to our satisfaction. And depending on your family circle, you couldn't properly question/criticize anything related to Sikhi or the Gurus.
    We each have this one life, and I don't want to waste it or that of my kids in something that doesn't exist (God), or is not needed and creates more separation that unity (Religion).

    Gurus in the Sikhi, to me means a teacher, and a student at the same time. Each Guru applied some new rule to follow, that was accepted according to the time they were living in. Almost like how Presidents/Gov't create new laws or change out-dated ones, with what's trending or accepted. But it's almost like the Gurus were improving or leaving their mark in History by introducing something new.
    But to me I see it like this. We claim that the Guru's are God-like. We worship them as such. Nothing bad is ever mentioned about them. Almost as if they are perfect. Some people on this site have claimed that Sikhi is perfect and that what the Gurus did was perfect. So how is that each Guru contributed something new? Shouldn't what Guru Nanak had started been perfect from the beginning? If Sikhi needed changes or improvements, then each Guru by definition cannot be perfect, and should open to criticism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  14. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Thanks Simran,

    What is your view on this?
     
  15. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    I am wondering what means "to be perfect". It might seem a silly question, but I cannot even imagine how someone can be perfect. It is not that I don't think that a human being can be perfect, it is that I don't understand what attributes would make a person "perfect".

    And, how is that that some people (the Gurus and maybe others) are perfect and others are not. Aren't all of us perfect? Why not? Are we perfect as newborns or we are not perfect even then?Are animals and plants perfect?

    I, of course, understand that some people act in ways that tend to bring more joy to other people than others. These are what we usually call "good people". And, of course, there are people that are more connected to their own feelings and inner nature than others. And people that are wiser. And others that a more acknowledgeable. But....even if someone is a good person, very well connected, wiser and acknowledgeable.. does it mean that this person is "perfect". Why is this "perfection"? Or the attributes that made the Gurus "perfect" are others?
     
  16. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    I'd love to share it as soon as I have the time. Thanks for asking!
     
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    you crack on mate, I think its people like you asking these questions that make others question their own comfortable answers

    yes, that is the trouble with learning off our elders, we propagate this to our own kids, and nothing new ever gets learned.

    but why do you need an eism period? even as an atheist you need a God not to believe in. The whole concept of God is quite personal, down to how you view God, how you communicate with God, and even those that feel God has given them their own special journey in life, which is to convert others to that view, we are all different. How can you possibly know what is true or false? how can anyone know? up until the point of death we have to have an open mind and use our brains, I personally see it a large jigsaw puzzle, rather than allow it have any affect on my life, its interesting, but at the end of the day, I wake up, I live, I go to sleep, and that's it. If your motivation is what to teach your kids, just teach them to be honest good human beings, you don't need God to tell you that, or validate it.

    It would be naive for us to assume that any religion, as it stands today, is an honest and accurate reflection of how it came to be, and how it was when it was conceived, there are too many with their own agenda, and that agenda is to control others. Allow your kids to the freedom to make their own decision based on the wisdom that you can impart on them, it is quite arrogant to assume that you take responsibility for their faith, all you can do is give them the facts and allow them to make their own decisions, sounds freaky eh, but you seem like the sort of guy I could say that to.

    I find all the Gurus were singing from the same song sheet myself, changing environments brought about changing circumstances, but if you could give me one example where one Guru contradicted another Guru, I would be interested in that.

    nope, there is a growing sentiment that they were ordinary human beings with no powers that showed us the best of mankind, and the pinnacle of what a human being could be.

    They were quite specific in this regard, they said it was wrong to do such

    yes, they were perfect human beings

    Sikhis in its current state is far from perfect, but if we come on to something close to my heart, universal truth, then in my mind they had discovered what the universal truth was, and lived by it, acted by it.

    as the environment changed, so did their contribution, however, the message was the same from the start. again, show an example of this change

    it was, again, show an example of contradiction



    your choice of words does not need to be so harsh as to invite disapproval, you are on a Sikh forum, and you seem quite intelligent, did you expect to be able to get away with that one and not cause ripples, it shows your own lack of humility and your big ego, you could have chosen understanding, which shows you are asking from a humble point of view, a genuine desire to learn, rather than a troll, I do not think you are a troll, but your communication skills are a bit lacking on such a sensitive subject. Show me one instance where a Guru has u turned, and we can go from there,

    criticism
    ˈkrɪtɪsɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes.
    understanding
    ʌndəˈstandɪŋ/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the ability to understand something; comprehension.
     
  18. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    Truthsikher 31


    Thank you for the lovely response, much appreciated.

    I think the starting point in your case would be to differentiate between philosophical and non philosophical questions and to ask what the words "God" and "religion" mean. This will help pave way to discuss questions of whether argument and evidence are even possible when we are talking about specific religious beliefs.

    The history of religion is as old as the history of humankind itself. Even the most primitive [cavemen] of times there is evidence to suggest that there was some form of worship. In a way, religion bestows meaning and purpose on human existence. It defines what is true [not your tables n chairs] and absolute and "how" it can be realised.

    A talking point for us I guess could be found from within the pages of SGGSJ. Take for example the verse "ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ" [472, SGGSJ, meaning: life started in water]. If that'd be correct then isn't that what Charles Darwin is saying in the Origin of Species by Natural Selection ?

    Have a think and lets explore true Sikhism.

    speak soon !
     
  19. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    Hi Simranjit,
    Hope all is well at your end !
    ..abstract thinking will give you a perfect thing, but not the natural world; a circle drawn with a compass will give you a 360' circle [perfect] and crude oil with drops of water [h2o] will produce circles measuring 360'. Otherwise, perfection lives north of the North Pole.

    Its not a silly question, depends more on the context within which it is framed. Take you for example, wanting a perfect partner who has the following: handsome, kind, chivalrous, brave, intelligent, generous, faithful, etc. It is possible to find someone having those qualities.

    ..it'll have to be those attributes that would make Simranjit go up the path [in that they serve her needs] as oppose to those that lead her down the path [in that they go against her needs]. The needs are biological n psychological ingrained into what we call, human condition.
    The word perfect doesn't do justice if we consider the Sikh Gurus to be mere mortals, which they were, however, the word used in Sikh scriptures is not "perfect" but "wholesome" [puran].
    ..it is because of our insatiable quest that has made us who we are as humans - hungry for knowledge. The deeper the dive [thinking] the higher the transformation [perfection]. From a spiritual perspective, yes, there is a state of perfect Being.

    ..no they are doable and achievable.

    I think the concept "guru" might be worth exploring because that will put you in a good stead to navigate your way around with the rest of the Sikh tenets.

    Hope it helps !
     
  20. charanjeet Kour

    charanjeet Kour SPNer

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    • We mostly hear and talk about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind, and I was curious about the other 8, like how they were chosen, what happened during their reign, etc. And I was quite shocked to learn that after the 3rd or 4th Guru, all of them were related by blood. For example sons, or uncles, or son in-laws, etc. To me that seems a bit Monarchist. Now I know they all went through their own "trials" because some had brothers who were not chosen - "because of their practice of miracles" and other sins. But still the search for the next Guru was never that far to look for - all in the family. I really find it hard to believe, that no other person (yes even female) outside the Guru's bloodline, was ever qualified to be the next Guru - to pass the torch if you will. To continue the teachings of their predecessors.
    Hello dear I have read about historical books of Guru's Life and i came across answer to your first question according to me is that...
    1. When Guru Nanak was born he was not like common child who weeps and all... He smiled and had known about all the languages by birth ( Like we know about " Baabay Nu Parhan Bithaya Baaba Parha k AYA Takhti ty Likhiya EK AUNKAR"). AND same, other Guru's had something unique about there character.
    2. I think God had given a sort of mixture and a very Good message in very short lifetime and belief on only 10 Guru's (Like other religions has so many prophets we saw in muslims hindus christian etc).
    3. In history there was blood relation on passing the torch but Sikhism is different.
    4. You tell me if u had torch than whether you would pass it on your son or whether to someone else??? I think you would pass it to your son right?? if this torch you pass to someone else you must be jaelous and other ills will be there...I hope u understand my thoughts.
    5. Now What Guru's Has done they teach us that Torch they have passed to someone else who was Guru made by God and not of their own.(and their was no jaelousy, no social ills etc.)
    6. This was first teaching to us from God side.
    7. Now u said that rest were in bloodline.. So brother this is according to me another teaching for us that Guru Gobind Singh's father (Guru Teg Bahadar sahib Ji) has Given life on asking of his son. (When Guru Teg bahadar ji asked for life of Strong men for saving Hindu religion than Guru Gobind Singh tell him that who can be more brave than you?)
    8. So tell me if you and I were in that place ? than would u or I could offer the life of our's father for someone else religion safty?? NO WE CAN NEVER BCX WE HAVE NO TORCH WE ARE NOT PERFECT WE THINK FOR OURSELF FIRST AND THAN FOR OTHERS.
    9. That was another message from God side to us that normal man can't make such offers.
    10. Now come towards that why torch was passed on to SGGS? It was because that I think that God wants us to remember him through our prophets right? and not the prophets who show miracles and all that to the people and than tell them to remember me and i will give you fruits for it.( As in Hinduism you will get special thing from unique devi and devtas, In Islam you will remember God but you are still incomplete in your eman till belief in lakhs of prophets).
    11. Now Sikhism teach us not to bow down your head to any picture, any mizar etc except SGGS.
    • Reasons:
    1. SGGS is jagti Jot, it has power. Its very true we find many examples and had seen it and feel it. Whenever i have done pray in early time i have sensed smell of Karha Parshad.
    2. All the teachings in SGGS is onli about God, Like believe in God, God has all power, remember him and many many his praises only.
    3. SO WE SHOULD BOW DOWN ONLY TO THAT SAYINGS AND NOT BY CONSIDERING IT BOOK.
    There is so much details realy.
    Thanks i hope it helps.
     
  21. charanjeet Kour

    charanjeet Kour SPNer

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    Dear Brother!
    I can understand your feelings. Its not actually your fault its because lack of knowledge with the parents. Your parents had less knowledge to teach you enough about Sikhism.
    If you really want to do something right in ur life than i will say please please follow Sikhism. Follow that religion in which you are born. if you were muslim i would have suggest you to go on way what islam teach u. Our Guru Nanak teach us that Religions are only ways ( KOI BOLAY RAM RAM KOI KHUDAYE KOI SAWAY GUSSAEYAN KOI ALLAH E).
    BELIEVE IN GOD IS FIRST THING IN ANY RELIGION. HOW YOU CAN REFUSE ABOUT HIS EXISTANCE THERE ARE MANY THINGS THIS WORLD PLANETS LIFE ON EARTH IS PROOF OF HIS EXISTANCE.
     

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