Christianity The Gospel Of Thomas

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

I am hoping Vouthon ji might be interested in a discussion on The Gospel of Thomas. kudihug It came up on the Ismaili thread and I'd like to move it over here as a separate thread.

I had no idea that the Pope approved of any of the Gnostic gospels. Is he the first pope to approve? Wasn't Gnostic Christianity once considered the enemy of the Roman church?

My own feelings about Gnostic gospels begins with the feeling they have not been watered down and mistranslated over the centuries. Some English translations/interpretations of Bible seem to have lost the authentic message, but that is to be expected.

Nam Jiwan

 

[Archived_member15]

My dear sister Namji mundahug

Thank you for the thread!

Well, there is a huge difference between being a "Gnostic" and being a "Heretic", not all Gnostics were heretics and not all heretics were Gnostic (ie Arianism, Montanism, Ebionitism etc.). Many of the early Fathers of the Church were Gnostics. To be a true Gnostic is to posses intellectual or esoteric knowledge of spiritual things. Both orthodox Christians and those of a heretical formulation claimed to have such.

Gnosticism comes from the greek word "Gnosis" meaning "knowledge". This word is used in the New Testament, most prominently by Paul. The Greek word "Pleroma" means "Fullness." It refers to the totality of Divine Power. It's used generally in Gnosticism, and also by St. Paul in Colossians 2:9, who was a Gnostic par excellence.

Read:

The title "Gnostic" does not refer to a heretic but to the orthodox Christian who attains the divine gnosis (knowledge) from the Holy Spirit, by illumination through Christ (the Logos) in the light of the tradition of the church.

Gnosticism isn't a uniform phenomenon or system of belief. There developed many strands in the second century, of which an orthodox Gnosticism [the earliest form] thrived in the early Church. This orthodox form was the original, and we call it nowadays (post-first millenium) "Catholic mysticism" whether Eastern or Western.

Jesus explained the very essence of Gnosticism when he said:

"...The knowledge [gnosis] of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you..."

- Jesus Christ (13:11)

As such there is an "orthodox Gnostic" tradition in Christianity. Saint Clement of Alexandria, Saint Justin Martyr, Origen and Saint Jerome to name a few, were all loyal orthodox Catholics and Gnostics.

As an example Saint Clement, an important early Church Father.

Here is Pope Benedict XVI's description of his Gnosticism:

...This knowledge, Clement tells us, becomes for the soul a lived reality: It is not just a theory. Rather, it is a life force, a union with a transforming love. The knowledge of Christ is not just a thought, but a love that opens the eyes, transforms the person and creates communion with the "Logos," the divine Word that is truth and life. In this communion, which is the perfect knowledge and is love, the perfect Christian reaches contemplation and union with God.

In this way, on the journey to perfection, Clement gives the same importance to moral requirements as to the intellectual ones. The two go together because it is not possible to know the truth without living it, nor to live the truth without knowing it. It is not possible to make oneself like God and contemplate him simply with a rational knowledge: In order to achieve this objective, it is necessary to live according to the "Logos," a life according to truth. And, therefore, good works have to accompany intellectual knowledge, as the shadow accompanies the body.

There are two virtues which particularly adorn the soul of the "authentic gnostic." The first is freedom from passions ("apátheia"); the second is love, the true passion, which ensures intimate union with God. Love gives perfect peace, and enables the "authentic gnostic" to confront the greatest sacrifices, including the supreme sacrifice in the following of Christ, and brings him to rise to the level of living virtue. In this way, the ethical ideal of ancient philosophy, that is, the freedom from passions, is redefined by Clement and complemented by love, in the unending process which leads to being like God....

Read:

The writings of St. Clement reveal that he was sincere in studying contemporary culture, while his heart was inflamed with divine love...As he loved the true gnosis (knowledge) he desired every Christian to be a true Gnostic. His Christology, therefore, concentrates on the redeeming work of Christ as the Light, Who shines upon our minds, that they might be illuminated, and he calls baptism "illumination." In the Protrepticus he calls men to accept our Lord Jesus, saying, "The Logos is not hidden from any one. He is the general Light, who shines upon all. Therefore there is no darkness in the world. May we hurry to attain our salvation. May we hurry to attain our renewal."...St. Clement and his disciple Origen were optimistic. His optimistic attitude is very clear in his writings which concentrate on the following points:
I. The first and greatest lesson for the Gnostic or the true believer is to know himself, for thus not only he knows God whose joyful kingdom is within him, but also he will be in His likeness.
II. His theology concentrates on the unceasingly inner renewal realized by the Holy Spirit who deified the believers.
III. In his writings he calls the Gnostics to attain the exceedingly spiritual joy under all circumstances, even while they are sleeping....

"...The summit of faith, is the knowledge (gnosis) itself, for which all the organs of perception exist...The primacy of knowledge the apostle shows to those capable of reflection...he teaches that knowledge (gnosis), which is the perfection of faith, goes beyond catechetical instruction, in accordance with the magnitude of the Lord’s teaching and the rule of the Church....The Instructor, divided by us into three books, has already exhibited the training and nurture up from the state of childhood, that is, the course of life which from elementary instruction grows by faith; and in the case of those enrolled in the number of men, prepares beforehand the soul, endued with virtue, for the reception of Gnostic knowledge. And the gnosis itself is that which has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles..."

- Saint Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 - c. 220), Early Catholic Church father

Now on the Gospel of Thomas particularly...

The Gospel of Thomas is actually not really a Gospel per se. Its a sayings source, much like the hypothetical Q or the proposed Signs Gospel under lying John.

St Augustine, an important fourth century church father, once said this:

"...Our Father who art in Heaven: what is this – Heaven? And where is Heaven? Then comes a surprising response: “… who art in Heaven – that means: in the saints and in the just. Yes, the heavens are the highest bodies in the universe, but they are still bodies, which cannot exist except in a given location. Yet if we believe that God is located in the heavens, meaning in the highest parts of the world, then the birds would be more fortunate than we, since they would live closer to God. Yet it is not written: ‘The Lord is close to those who dwell on the heights or on the mountains’, but rather: ‘the Lord is close to the brokenhearted’, an expression which refers to humility. Just as the sinner is called ‘Earth’, so by contrast the just man can be called ‘Heaven’.”

These words of St Augustine were quoted by Pope Benedict XVI in his 2007 Christmas Eve Mass Sermon.

“If we believe that God is located in the heavens, then the birds would be more fortunate than we”

Now, this idea is not in the Bible. Where does it come from? Well there was this ancient text, you know found in Nag Hammadi in 1945 and in it this saying is attributed to Jesus, in this document alone and nowhere else:

"...Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will find the Kingdom, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

(The Gospel of Thomas)

The Gospel of Thomas witnesses to Sacred Tradition that is not in the Bible but which was attested to in the theology of St Augustine and other Church Fathers, up and until today with Pope Benedict.

And this is not the only instance where Thomas seems to have access to genuine Sacred Tradition not preserved in the Bible.

The following agrapha comes from the book of 2 Clement, which is an Orthodox writing and an Apostolic Father from the 2nd century.

"For the Lord himself, being asked when the kingdom would come, replied, ‘When two shall be one, that which is without as that which is within, and the male with the female, neither male nor female’" ( 2 Clement 12).

This is clearly a quote from the Gospel of Thomas, saying 22, or at least derived from the same common source (which is thus Orthodox). The saying in Thomas 22 reads:

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, “These infants tasting milk are like those who enter the kingdom.”

They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the Kingdom?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand … then you will enter"

This saying is also referred to by the Church Father, Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata:

"When Salome inquired when the things concerning which she asked should be known, the Lord said: When ye have trampled on the garment of shame, and when the two become one and the male with the female is neither male nor female." - (Stromateis iii)

Here are other examples where the Church Fathers clearly quoted Thomas (or the source behind Thomas. These sayings surface nowhere else apart from in the Fathers and Thomas):

Augustine, Against Adversaries of the Law and Prophets 2.4.14 (it is now known that this saying comes from Thomas 52):

The apostles asked the Lord: Has the advent already happened in the past?

And the Lord answered: You have dismissed the living one who is before your eyes and talk idly of the dead.

Here is the saying from the Gospel of Thomas 52:

His disciples said to him: Twenty-four prophets spoke in Israel, and they all spoke of you. He said to them: You have abandoned the living one before your eyes, and spoken about the dead.

Another saying found in Thomas which is quoted by the Church Fathers is the following:

Origen, On Jeremiah, Latin homily 20.3:

He that is near me is near the fire.
He that is far from me is far from the kingdom

Gospel of Thomas saying 82

Jesus said: He who is near to me is near the fire, and he who is far from me is far from the kingdom.


Another example...


Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, V, 10, 64:

"For not grudgingly, he saith, did the Lord declare in a certain gospel: My mystery is for me and for the sons of my house."

Gospel of Thomas 62:

I tell my mysteries to those who are worthy of my mysteries

There are many other such agrapha quoted by the Church Fathers which crop up in Thomas. We can only conclude then that the Gospel of Thomas is not a heretical Gnostic gospelbut rather part of the orthodox gnostic tradition. The Gospel of John, an orthodox text in the New Testament, was widely used by heretical Gnostics - in fact the earliest commentary on it comes from a heretical Gnostic. So Thomas' usage by the Nag Hammadi community does not make it a heretical Gnostic text [in fact other texts in that canon are not heretical either such as the Apochryphon of James].

As you can see Thomas (or its source text) was extremely well-known to the Fathers and frequently quoted as an Orthodox source containing genuine Sacred Tradition not contained in the Four Canon Gospels.

Even Orthodox Wiki says of Thomas:

"(The First Epistle of Clement) ranks with Didache and the Gospel of Thomas as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, of extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament"

http://orthodoxwiki.org/First_Epistle_of_Clement


Thomas is not actually a "Gnostic" Gospel, if by Gnostic you mean the un-Orthodox kind which devalues the flesh and teaches that the material universe was created by an evil deity. It has a very high view of the flesh and has none of that heretical Gnostic mythology in it. It is a work of orthodox Gnosticism.

Steven Davies, one of the foremost scholars of Thomas, said:


“Thomas, if anything is anti-Gnostic, with its emphasis on the presence of the Kingdom of Heaven within the world now . . . Gnosticism emphatically insisted that the Kingdom of Heaven is to be found in the highest sphere above this world and certainly not here"

~Stevan Davies <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


The Gospel of Thomas was first discovered in the late 19th century as a group of fragments which were called by scholars, 'The Logia of Jesus'.

The Catholic Church accepted these sayings as part of the sacred tradition of Jesus outside the Bible.

Even the ultra-conservative Catholic encyloepedia written in 1911, accepts these sayings as orthodox and authentic agrapha:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01225c.htm

List of authentic agrapha

The sources from which the <!--3ref=u69=02137a.htm-->authentic<!--k02--> <!--3ref=u44=x51479.htm-->Agrapha<!--k06--> may be gathered are:

(a) the New Testament and the New Testamentmanuscripts; (b) the <!--2ref=u96=01601a.htm-->Apocryphal<!--k01--> <!--3ref=u76=15006b.htm-->tradition<!--k02-->; (c) the <!--2ref=u47=11560a.htm-->patristic<!--k01--> citations; and (d) the so-called "Oxyrhynchus Logia" of Jesus. <!--3ref=u44=x51479.htm-->Agrapha<!--k06--> contained in <!--2ref=u94=08399a.htm-->Jewish<!--k01--> or <!--2ref=u94=10424a.htm-->Mohammedan<!--k01--> sources may be curious, but they are hardly <!--3ref=u69=02137a.htm-->authentic<!--k04-->. Since the <!--3ref=u44=x81740.htm-->criticism<!--k03--> of the <!--3ref=u44=x51479.htm-->Agrapha<!--k06--> is in most cases difficult, and often unsatisfactory, frequent disagreement in the critical results must be expected as a matter of course. The following <!--3ref=u44=x51479.htm-->Agrapha<!--k06--> are probably genuine sayings of Jesus.<!--BIBLE-SUMMA-FATHERS-->

(a) In the New Testament and the New Testamentmanuscripts: In <!--2ref=u69=04080b.htm-->Codices<!--k01--> D and Phi, and in some versions of Matthew 20:28, "But ye seek from the small to increase, and from the greater to be less." In <!--3ref=u69=04080b.htm-->Codex<!--k03--> D of Luke 6:4: "On the same day, seeing one working on the Sabbath, he said to him: <!--3ref=u66=09580c.htm-->Man<!--k02-->, if thou <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->knowest<!--k03--> what thou doest, <!--3ref=u76=xxyyyk.htm-->blessed<!--k01--> art thou; but if thou <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->knowest<!--k06--> not, thou art <!--2ref=u96=09569a.htm-->accursed<!--k01--> and a transgressor of the <!--3ref=u44=x67319.htm-->Law<!--k03-->." In Acts 20:35, "Remember the word of the Lord Jesus, how he said: It is a more <!--3ref=u76=xxyyyk.htm-->blessed<!--k04--> thing to give, rather than to receive."<!--BIBLE-SUMMA-FATHERS-->

(b) In apocryphal <!--3ref=u76=15006b.htm-->tradition<!--k02-->: In the <!--3ref=u44=x63392.htm-->Gospel<!--k03--> according to the <!--3ref=u44=x63971.htm-->Hebrews<!--k03--> (Jerome, Ezech., xviii, 7): "In the <!--3ref=u44=x63392.htm-->Gospel<!--k04--> which the <!--3ref=u44=x69948.htm-->Nazarenes<!--k03--> are accustomed to read, that according to the <!--3ref=u44=x63971.htm-->Hebrews<!--k07-->, there is put among the greatest crimes he who shall have grieved the <!--3ref=u44=x85915.htm-->spirit<!--k04--> of his brother." In the same <!--3ref=u44=x63392.htm-->Gospel<!--k04--> (<!--yyy=x65718.htm-->Jerome<!--u44-->, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Eph.<!--k03-->, v, 3 sq.): "In the <!--3ref=u44=x63969.htm-->Hebrew<!--k03--> <!--3ref=u44=x63392.htm-->Gospel<!--k04--> too we read of the <!--3ref=u44=x67693.htm-->Lord<!--k08--> saying to the <!--3ref=u47=05029a.htm-->disciples<!--k02-->: And never, said he, rejoice, except when you have looked upon your brother in love." In <!--2ref=u76=01648b.htm-->Apostolic<!--k01--> <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Church-Order<!--k03-->, 26: "For he said to us before, when he was teaching: That which is weak shall be <!--2ref=u76=13407a.htm-->saved<!--k01--> through that which is strong." In "Acta Philippi", 34: "For the <!--3ref=u44=x67693.htm-->Lord<!--k08--> said to me: Except ye make the lower into the upper and the left into the <!--2ref=u73=13055c.htm-->right<!--k01-->, ye shall not enter into my <!--2ref=u77=08646a.htm-->kingdom<!--k01-->."<!--BIBLE-SUMMA-FATHERS-->

(c) In <!--3ref=u47=11560a.htm-->patristic<!--k02--> citations: Justin Martyr, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Dial<!--k03-->. 47: "Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, In whatsoever things I apprehend you, in those I shall <!--3ref=u44=x83538.htm-->judge<!--k03--> you." Clement of Alexandria, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Strom<!--k06-->. I, 24, 158: "For ask, he says for the great things, and the small shall be added to you." Clement of Alexandria, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Strom<!--k06-->. I, 28, 177: "Rightly therefore the <!--3ref=u96=13635b.htm-->Scripture<!--k02--> also in its desire to make us such dialecticians, exhorts us: Be approved moneychangers, disapproving some things, but holding <!--2ref=u56=05789c.htm-->fast<!--k01--> that which is <!--3ref=u44=x82968.htm-->good<!--k03-->." Clement of Alexandria, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Strom<!--k06-->. V, 10, 64: "For not grudgingly, he saith, did the <!--3ref=u44=x67693.htm-->Lord<!--k08--> declare in a <!--2ref=u66=03539b.htm-->certain<!--k01--> <!--3ref=u96=06655b.htm-->gospel<!--k02-->: My <!--2ref=u76=10662a.htm-->mystery<!--k01--> is for me and for the sons of my house." Origen, <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Homil<!--k03-->. in <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Jer.<!--k03-->, XX, 3: "But the <!--3ref=u63=08374c.htm-->Saviour<!--k03--> himself saith: He who is near me is near the fire; he who is far from me, is far from the <!--3ref=u77=08646a.htm-->kingdom<!--k02-->."<!--BIBLE-SUMMA-FATHERS-->

(d) In the Oxyrhynchus <!--3ref=u96=09323a.htm-->Logia<!--k02-->: The first <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k03--> is part of Luke 6:42; of the fourth, only the word "poverty" is left; the eighth, too, is badly mutilated. The text of the other <!--3ref=u96=09323a.htm-->Logia<!--k06--> is in a more <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->satisfactory<!--k03--> <!--2ref=u66=04211a.htm-->condition<!--k01-->. Second <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, Except you <!--3ref=u56=05789c.htm-->fast<!--k02--> to the world, you shall in no wise find the kingdom of God." Third <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was I seen of them, and I found all <!--3ref=u66=09580c.htm-->men<!--k02--> <!--2ref=u98=01274a.htm-->drunken<!--k01-->, and none found I athirst among them, and my soul grieved over the sons of <!--3ref=u66=09580c.htm-->men<!--k08-->, because they are blind in their heart, and <!--npm-->see not." Fifth <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, Wherever there are two, they are not without God; and wherever there is one alone, I say I am with him. Raise the <!--2ref=u96=14308a.htm-->stone<!--k01--> and there thou shalt find me; cleave the wood, and there am I." Sixth <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, A prophet is not acceptable in his own country, neither doth a physician work cures upon them that know him." <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Seventh<!--k03--> <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, A city built upon the top of a hill and stablished can neither fall nor be hid." Eighth <!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm-->Logion<!--k06-->: "Jesus saith, Thou hearest with one ear . . ."

<!--3ref=u44=xxyyyk.htm--><!--BIBLE-SUMMA-FATHERS-->


The last "the Oxyrhynchus <!--3ref=u96=09323a.htm-->Logia" <!--k02-->are fragments from the earliest known copy of the Gospel of Thomas (before its name was known and discovered entirely in Nag Hammadi in 1945).

So in view of all of this the current Pope's positive attitude to the Gospel of Thomas, to the extent of referencing it as an authority in his 2008 book on Jesus, is not suprising to me - although it might be to a lot of people.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Wow, lots to take in here, I'll have to digest it a little at a time. Hopefully, I'll have time to read and reflect on what you have shared here. I have a busy couple weeks, but it will be nice to spend time on this over the coming weeks.

I would like to learn more about both Gnosticism and Catholicism and their relatonship.

Nam Jiwan

 

[Archived_member15]

Here is a good translation of the GTH for ease of quotation and reflection in case we continue this discussion:

The Gospel of Thomas: The Dead Sea Scrolls Gnostic Truth

​

Translated by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer

(Visit the Gospel of Thomas Collection for additional information)

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

4. Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.

For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

5. Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.

For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised.]"

6. His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

8. And he said, "The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

10. Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."

11. Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.

The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

13. Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

15. Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

16. Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

17. Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

19. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.

If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.

For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."

20. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."

He said to them, "It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

21. Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"

He said, "They are like little children living in a field that is not theirs. When the owners of the field come, they will say, 'Give us back our field.' They take off their clothes in front of them in order to give it back to them, and they return their field to them.

For this reason I say, if the owners of a house know that a thief is coming, they will be on guard before the thief arrives and will not let the thief break into their house (their domain) and steal their possessions.

As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you, for the trouble you expect will come.

Let there be among you a person who understands.

When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

23. Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and they will stand as a single one."

24. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."

He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

25. Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."

26. Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."

27. "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the (Father's) kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."

28. Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."

29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

30. Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."

31. Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."

32. Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

33. Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops.

After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

34. Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

35. Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

36. Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] what you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin.

As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garment.]"

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

38. Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me and you will not find me."

39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

40. Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."

41. Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."

42. Jesus said, "Be passersby."

43. His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"

"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you.

Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

45. Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit.

Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted.

But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

47. Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.

And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.

Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.

An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

49. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'

If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'

If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?"

He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

52. His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you."

He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

53. His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision useful or not?"

He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

54. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's kingdom."

55. Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

56. Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."

57 Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, 'No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned."

58. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the person who has toiled and has found life."

59. Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

60. He saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea. He said to his disciples, "that person ... around the lamb." They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it." He said to them, "He will not eat it while it is alive, but only after he has killed it and it has become a carcass."

They said, "Otherwise he can't do it."

He said to them, "So also with you, seek for yourselves a place for rest, or you might become a carcass and be eaten."

61. Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."

Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."

Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father."

"I am your disciple."

"For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."

62. Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my] mysteries.

63 Jesus said, "There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, 'I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing.' These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

64. Jesus said, "A person was receiving guests. When he had prepared the dinner, he sent his slave to invite the guests.

The slave went to the first and said to that one, 'My master invites you.' That one said, 'Some merchants owe me money; they are coming to me tonight. I have to go and give them instructions. Please excuse me from dinner.'

The slave went to another and said to that one, 'My master has invited you.' That one said to the slave, 'I have bought a house, and I have been called away for a day. I shall have no time.'

The slave went to another and said to that one, 'My master invites you.' That one said to the slave, 'My friend is to be married, and I am to arrange the banquet. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me from dinner.'

The slave went to another and said to that one, 'My master invites you.' That one said to the slave, 'I have bought an estate, and I am going to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me.'

The slave returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his slave, 'Go out on the streets and bring back whomever you find to have dinner.'

Buyers and merchants [will] not enter the places of my Father."

65. He said, "A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said, 'Perhaps he didn't know them.' He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they'll show my son some respect.' Because the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

66. Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."

67. Jesus said, "Those who know all, but are lacking in themselves, are utterly lacking."

68. Jesus said, "Congratulations to you when you are hated and persecuted; and no place will be found, wherever you have been persecuted."

69. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who have been persecuted in their hearts: they are the ones who have truly come to know the Father.

Congratulations to those who go hungry, so the stomach of the one in want may be filled."

70. Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

71. Jesus said, "I will destroy [this] house, and no one will be able to build it [...]."

72. A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me."

He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?"

He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"

73. Jesus said, "The crop is huge but the workers are few, so beg the harvest boss to dispatch workers to the fields."

74. He said, "Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but there is nothing in the well."

75. Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."

76. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.

So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

78. Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."

He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"

80. Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

81. Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce <it>."

82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

84. Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"

85. Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."

86. Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."

87. Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."

88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

90. Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."

93. "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."

94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."

95. [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."

96. Jesus [said], "The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

97. Jesus said, "The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one."

99. The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."

He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

101. "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."

102. Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

103. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

104. They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a *****."

106. Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

107. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine.'"

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

109. Jesus said, "The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either. He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

110. Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."

111. Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death."

Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?

112. Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

Courtesy of this website: http://www.hermeticsource.info/the-gospel-of-thomas-gnostic-jesus.html​

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

Vouthon ji

Alhamdulillah! Praise Ma! I am so excited to see the Gospel of Thomas here.

Right now, I am watching the coverage of the shooting in Newtown. It is pretty intense. It will help me to read and contemplate and comment and question on the Gospel of Thomas. I find the Gnostic texts very esoteric. I think the New Testament is calling me again also. Maybe now that I have explored for so long, I can actually see how beautiful and deep Jesus' (peace be upon him) teachings are.

I have spent some time at a wonderful gnostic forum. You might enjoy reading what is there also: http://www.sophian.org.

Just like I think there are muslims (those who are surrendered to God) and Muslims (those who practice the religion of Islam (with a capital I, as separate religion), I think there are gnostics (knowers found in all traditions and even unattached to any tradition) and Gnostics who had views that were very different from what has become mainstream Christianity.

I have to look up the Hermetic website since I also find a lot of stuff that nourishes my faith in the Hermetic teachings such as the Kybalion and the Emerald Tablet.

Please pray tonight for all the world, that we will come to heal ourselves and each other, leading to a world where children will be safe in their schools. What kind of world is this now that 20 kindergartners have been shot dead? We, the people who have free will, must respond with major force...transforming the energy of this world...restoring peace and harmony.

That was Christ in action...the restorer of peace, the purifier of energy, the teacher of harmony.

Nam Jiwan

 

[Archived_member15]

There is an exellent film version of the Gospel of Thomas. Its a website that presents to you an visually acted out rendition of the Gospel sayings by professional, Shakespearean actors. The device on the website gives you the choice between a Western looking Jesus and a Middle Eastern one, gentlly spoken versions, passionate spoken versions, and your translation of choice.

Here is the website:

http://www.gospelofthomas.tv/about.htm

Here specifically is the morphic device, enjoy sister Namji!

http://www.gospelofthomas.tv/index.aspx

Please choose the semitic Jesus for first time! Your choices are more broad in the Western Jesus though.

I prefer the Middle Eastern Jesus. I think that the actor is better (He is Iranian born). That's just a personal preference though. In the Semitic Jesus video the camera angles on his face are different each time you watch the video. Its random, whereas you control the Western one.

There are two western Jesus versions on youtube:

Gospel Thomas Film - YouTube

Gospel of Thomas Movie, Gentle - YouTube

 

[namjiwankaur]

Vouthon ji,

I remember the first time I watched these videos. I loved them so it will be nice to listen to them again. Thank You!

But I must confess right now I'm listening to some Snatam Kaur and can't bear to tear myself away from it yet. :grinningsingh::grinningkaur:

Nam Jiwan

There is an exellent film version of the Gospel of Thomas. Its a website that presents to you an visually acted out rendition of the Gospel sayings by professional, Shakespearean actors. The device on the website gives you the choice between a Western looking Jesus and a Middle Eastern one, gentlly spoken versions, passionate spoken versions, and your translation of choice.

Here is the website:

http://www.gospelofthomas.tv/about.htm

Here specifically is the morphic device, enjoy sister Namji!

http://www.gospelofthomas.tv/index.aspx

Please choose the semitic Jesus for first time! Your choices are more broad in the Western Jesus though.

I prefer the Middle Eastern Jesus. I think that the actor is better (He is Iranian born). That's just a personal preference though. In the Semitic Jesus video the camera angles on his face are different each time you watch the video. Its random, whereas you control the Western one.

There are two western Jesus versions on youtube:

Gospel Thomas Film - YouTube

Gospel of Thomas Movie, Gentle - YouTube

 

[Archived_member15]

Vouthon ji,

I remember the first time I watched these videos. I loved them so it will be nice to listen to them again. Thank You!

But I must confess right now I'm listening to some Snatam Kaur and can't bear to tear myself away from it yet. :grinningsingh::grinningkaur:

Nam Jiwan

I love Snatnam Kaur, my favourite song of hers is "Guru Amardas".

Glad you've seen the vids already! mundahug

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

I wonder if any of the Sikhs here have read The Gospel of Thomas and what their reactions have been. Have you learned from it or not identified with it?

Jesus peace be upon him rocks, in my humble opinion.

I wish more existed of his teachings. The Red Letter versions show us that only a minimum is preserved in the Bible, but Jesus could speak one word and it could awaken the heart.

I just wish more Christians and non-Christians would make his teachings real in this world.

 

[namjiwankaur]

I love Snatnam Kaur, my favourite song of hers is "Guru Amardas".

Glad you've seen the vids already! mundahug

Alhamdulillah! I know some Hindus revere Jesus as a saint (maybe even a deity?). I wonder how Sikhs relate to Jesus, not just the technicalities of how they define him (as prophet or not), but just his message as it has come down in the Bible and some Gnostic texts.

Vouthon, did you ever check out Tau Malachi? Not sure if he wrote about Thomas, I'll look it up in his books tomorrow. He would, no doubt, have life-changing lessons to share on The Gospel of Thomas.

Ugh, its late. Have to go. TTYL

 

[aristotle]

@Vouthon Ji..
Does the Apocrypha play any role in the church proceedings or sermons? I wonder if it is even included in the modern bibles like ASV, NKJV etc.
Also, is the 'Gospel of Thomas' included in the Apocrypha?

 

[aristotle]

Sat Nam _/|\_

I wonder if any of the Sikhs here have read The Gospel of Thomas and what their reactions have been. Have you learned from it or not identified with it?

Jesus peace be upon him rocks, in my humble opinion.

I wish more existed of his teachings. The Red Letter versions show us that only a minimum is preserved in the Bible, but Jesus could speak one word and it could awaken the heart.

I just wish more Christians and non-Christians would make his teachings real in this world.

I have read the Gospel of Judas and that of Mary Magdalene instead. Quite interesting, to be sincere.