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The Five K's, Why

j_uk

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Jan 15, 2009
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Wahe guru ji ka khalsa
i belive that you are born in sikh family its doesnt mean that you are a sikh becuase a sikh would never question whats guru ji had said if you have got are not sure that dont call the guru but if you are sure then dont question guruji
as i dont belive that anybody should give reason to any other sikh regarding what any guru had said if sikh are not sure then dont call yourself a sikh
Wahe guru ji ki fateh
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Wahe guru ji ka khalsa
i belive that you are born in sikh family its doesnt mean that you are a sikh becuase a sikh would never question whats guru ji had said if you have got are not sure that dont call the guru but if you are sure then dont question guruji
WJKK WJKF
I doubt that Sikhs DID not question the Gurus. I bet they did.

I think that most Sikhs think that if you question Guru ji you are BAD or EVIL. Well, I cant be too sure but I used to think this way. We know that Brahmins questioned Guru ji. I automatically assumed all Brahmins were bad, and related that to questioning and thought that quesioning was bad as well. However not all brahmins were bad or had evil intentions, some just had to break out of their nutshell and see the world with a new perspective. Others just could not make sense of what Guru Sahibs told them, so they probably questioned.

J Uk ji, If a teacher does not permit questioning in his class, then I certainly wouldn't want to be in such class. Such a rule would limit the amount that students can learn. It would handicap their potential to explore different areas of the lesson. What do you think?

as i dont belive that anybody should give reason to any other sikh regarding what any guru had said if sikh are not sure then dont call yourself a sikh
This is forum though, we should be sharing our reasons, especially if that's what the discussions demands. but we shouldn't leave it at that. We should be exploring other possibilities and other forms of reasoning. We should also be exploring other perspectives. This something I always do and I think other should do as well.

WJKK WJKF
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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oh DEAR..oh DEAR...
i CERTAINLY GAVE TOO MUCH CREDIT TO THOSE WHO are Punjabi - born and bred.
Gurbani..and the teachings and the Philosophy of Gurmatt that we discuss on SPN has got absolutely nothing to do with "worldly riches..the cold hard cash and bank accounts/shares/properties"
Its always got to do with SPIRITUAL RICHES..SPIRITUAL BANKRUPTSY..SPIRITUAL RECESSION..losses !!!

The First Generation Punjabi Born SIKHS....who arrived in MALAYA ( I ALWAYS speak/write from PERSONAL INTERACTION?EXPERIENCES - never hear say/assumptions) arrived here having Little or NO Literacy...most couldnt even write a single OOrra. BUT they had immesne FAITH in Guur Ji. They Gave ..and they gave..and they Gave..until they had established GURDWARAS..KHALSA PUNJABI SCHOOLS...
To them "Giving" 10 cents a month was HUGE becasue that daswandh was much more than 10%..it amounted to around 50% even.....These people were "RICH" in their TOTAL FAITH and BELIEF in what GURU JIS HUKM was.
The Second Generation..became educated in English...became Professionals, doctors...etc but they STILL RETAINED their Total FAITH in the Gurus HUKM..hence DASTAARS...their "contributions" to the Gurdwaras/Khalsa Schools still remained substantial...This generation was still RICH...
Then came the Third Generation...this is the one that lost its total Faith in Guru Jis HUKM....became PAUPERS in terms of Spirituality..threw the dastaar into the dustbin...earned huge amounts as doctors and engineers..BUT couldnt "afford" to give so much....GURDWARAS now had to turn to BANKS to "borrow money..take out LOANS...fro renovations etc..the ""Financiually RICH" sikhs had lots of responsibilities..credit cards..car loans, house loans,,etc and not much left for Gurdwaras...
Compared to the EARLY settlers..who among them had a LIMITED NUMBER of SGGS birs..even Gurdwaras had to depend on "borrowing a SGGS bir"...this "finacially rich" generation had SGGS Birs Parkash in their homes...each son had his own copy...they didint ned to even go to teh Gurdawra to get a copy during a sehaj paath etc...BUT their "appearance showed" they were Spiritually BANKRUPT. They read the SGGS a lot..BUT..Questioned ?? and then SELF ANSWERED the questions based on SELECTIVE TUKS picked up to reinforce their own predecided "Manmatt disguised as Gurmatt"
SWAAL JAWAB DOVEHN KAREHMudhon khuthah jaiyeh....in Aasa dee Varar.
They have since learnt the error of their ways..many among them...want and insist that their GRAND CHILDREN enroll for Punjabi Classes, Gurbani classes, keep KESH and wear Dastaars and chhak Amrit.
These are the Once RICH....but NOW claiming they are.."lutteh gayeh..haar gayeh..."...NO PUNJABI language..NO Sikhi..NO Punjabi culture....their childfren speak foreign languages. mix with other races..abuse drugs drink in pubs..smoke..and are abusive to parents.... who want the way back to the GURU..through their grandchildren. I see such examples daily....as I said i write based SOLELY on MY OWN personal experiences.
And now a Malaysian Home grown Wise saying... Those who eat Hot Pepeprs..feel the burning sensation....The others have already seen through the smokescreen of blame...it remains in place for some..Still I say SORRY if my posts "seem to imply" what I never intended. I KNOW what I wrote..what i intended and what i meant...ALWAYS GURUs HUKM is SUPREME. I dotn throw stones ..they are counter productive....but people who live in glass houses..will always live in fear no matter how humble..appradhee doona niveh ?? MY sincerest apologies to all.
 

bairaagi

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Dec 25, 2011
23
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gurgaon
I also had lot of doubts in my minds which were never cleared to 100% by my parents or Gyaniji in Gurudwara.
So I though a lot and here are my observations regarding five Kakars :

Note : These are my personal interpretation and may not be 100 % correct.

Social condition at the time :

Before Guru Govind Singh the sikh panth was not formalized . Most of the followers were Hindus and also follow the teachings of Gurus. Our country was ruled by Moughals which were followers of Islam and wanted to convert everyone to Islam . The morale of people was at lowest level. No one was able to show courage to oppose conversion. Guruji wanted people to stand up against the oppression and wake up their inner strength.


Significance of each 5 K at the time of Guru Govind Singh :

Guru Govind singh wanted each of his follower to be Sant-Sipahi (Saint+Warrior) who can serve mankind and at the same time defend the belief .

Kesh : This is first mandatory kakar . There were multiple reasons for mandading uncut hair for khalsa.

(i) The saints in India have been keeping kesh,beard and moustaches since long. To surrender against the will of God.

(ii) The kesh,beard and mustaches were considered royal in India since long and only royal people were allowed to keep long hair. The same is true about turbons as well . This was another reason to boost up the morale of people by making them "Sardaar" and give them pride and self confidence.

(iii) Unique identity was given to the sikhs. Khalsa and his actions will be recognized among thousand people. This also make all the look almost same. One sikhs should recognige other by appearance only and help if required (Brotherhood) . The same stands good for other people as well they should identify sikh and seek his help if needed.

Kangha : To comb and clean the long hair daily. Without combing long hair becomes "jata" like sadhus.

Kripan : The weapon given to defend . To be used only if individual/other is in trouble. For increasing self pride in sikhs giving them a tool for "aan ki raksha". Let us accept that it was tough time and people were killed brutally if they don't convert.

Kachhera : I can think of two reasons :
(i) Symbol of self control. Reminds of guruji's teaching if one is about to get involved in unjustified sexual relashionship.
(ii) Better then dhotis people use to wear that time. Ease of horse riding and during wars.

Kara : To remind of Guruji in every action as Right hand is generally involved in your actions. For example if someone pulls his kirpan then it will remind it is not to oppress anyone.


Surname SINGH : To make everyone aware of their inner strength by announcing them fearless Singh (Lions). This was also to suppress the cast system in society .

Guru ji made people from Jackal to Lions , the people who were oppressed from centuries were made warriors and saints same time.

Edit : The turbon,beard and kara also use to protect (at least few percent) from swords during wars.

Significance of each 5 K in 2012 : To be continued ..... in next post.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Few thoughts Bairagi ji
(iii) Unique identity was given to the sikhs. Khalsa and his actions will be recognized among thousand people. This also make all the look almost same. One sikhs should recognige other by appearance only and help if required (Brotherhood) . The same stands good for other people as well they should identify sikh and seek his help if needed.
This is preached a lot today but it wasn't the case back then. Points i and ii are the reality IMO. Also Rajput and kshatriya, and even Shaiv Panthis started filling up the Khalsa ranksin huge numbers. Being, warriors these communities thought it was their duty to fight in a Dharam Yudh announced by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Most of the warriors during his time were warrior caste. To them Guru ji himself emphasizes his warrior caste, and fighter nature saying I am the son of a Kshatriya, not a Brahmin, (read: I am someone who will fight in battle than someone who studies battle) when announcing himself as the head of this yudh in northern India.

Apparently only 3 kakkars were mandatory then. Kes, Kara and Kurd or Kes Kachha and Kurd. Though I can't remember which 3 exactly, since it has been a long time since I read material on the early rehitnamas.

Kara symbolized commitment to the dharam yudh.

Kachhera is exactly like a dhoti. One is wrapped the other is tied. But there is one advantage to Kachhera and that is that it can have threaded bottoms that can be tied to secure it around the knees to prevent insects from crawling up. This cannot be done with dhoti nor loin cloth.

Singh is the warrior (specifically the Rajput community) last name. He was making his sikhs into warriors so he gave them a name to match. Also because most of the warriors in his army would have been Rajput. It's not like one day he said everyone is a warrior, and everyone knew how to fight. No, first those who already fought, came in then others adopted the name. Guru Sahib adopted it himself as well. The name was associated with rulers and warriors of India (Rajputs) who had defended it over centuries. It was only natural to give this powerful name to soldiers in his own army. Even so, he commanded a larger mercenary Muslim, Pathan force (Pathan is another one of these powerful warrior figures alongside Rajputs).

I think you'll be interested in this lecture on Sikh arms and armour: In Praise of Steel Nihang History -Davinder Singh Toor - YouTube
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Cant agree more Virinder ji, It is better to make the effort first then receive the honour than to receive the honour and forget to make the effort
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IF every CHILD did it that way..the SCHOOLS would be EMPTY.
Every CHILD has to GET ENROLLED...wear the UNIFORM..adhere to the DISCIPLINE..listen to what the TEACHERS SAY..do the Homework..etc etc etc....and when EXAMINATION day arrives..the HONOUR is SHOWN as EARNED.

But what I do agree with you is that YES..many among us..do get enrolled..etc but make no effort...Fail miserably ...get EXPELLED even....others proudly STAY AWAY..and declare..I am doing PRIVATE studies at HOME"..ha ha...in ACTUAL FACT..the MAJORITY of those "private" students are those who FAILED at SCHOOL/Got EXPELLED...and save FACE by saying..I am studying privately..after all what is "education"..just study..anybody cna do that..blah blah blah...

NO one can be a "DOCTOR" by simply being a "private student"..staying at home with his medical books..BUT some so called DOCS do advocate that any one can be a SIKH just by being at home..??? Isnt it amazing..that I cannot go around treating "bodies"...but I can go around claiming i am a Good SIKH "inisde"...the "outside" doesnt matter..tricky subject..same values apply..
 
Aug 28, 2010
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I think the school of spritual knowledge can not be equated with the school of wordly knowledge.
I appreciate the example given by Giyani Jarnail Singh ji .But is this really a way for the spritual knowledge?
It would be better to look into how great sriritual people acquired this knowledge.
In which school they got enrolled .
Sritual knowledge is purely thru grace of GuRu.This knowledge can struck to any one
anywhere.This knowledge does not require any attempts .This knowledge can be acquired even by illiterate one..How?

just my views

Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Sikh is no different from Guru. So there is nothing Guru Nanak Dev ji can teach you and me?

Pl look at a quote from Gurbanee as
"GuROO Sikhu Sikhu GuROO Eko GuR Updes Chalae" pp440

Such is the relationship beteween Sikh and GuROO

You have perhaps misunderstood the reference meaning of the word GuROO.
It is the teaching of NANAK DEV Ji as GuROO which every sikh is required to live with
The context of Sikh being as GuROO is related to this reference only.

GuROO-Sikh relation - ship is very unique in understanding. This is important to realise.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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In that case we are off topic. We both know what your post above is all about but my question is not about that.
Also no discussion could really take place about the kind of teaching you are talking about. It is that source by which you and I are here. It explains explanations. How can you talk about something, in which all ways of talking about things, dissolve and disintegrate. It is a fire that burns everything. Before we begin to speak about it, it has burned it to ashes. Thousands and thousands of books, scrolls, articles, posts, have had their words burned by this fire. The words on the page are mere ashes, not the fire itself.

Our body is the place school for spritual Knowledge.
Within this body sitting GuRu is the teacher.
One is already enrolled.
it is all self control descipline.
GuRu itself is doing assessment
GuRu itself honours the one who has been graced
I agree with the above. There's a word for this, Antaryami, the Hari within (read: GuRu). I would call this the relationship between the Antaryami and Sikh. I keep Guru a term strictly to refer to people like Guru Nanak Dev ji. Yes they are Hari (read GuRu) and only by our human perception we view them as people but I want to discuss the human aspect when I say human guru.

1. Now what is the role of a human guru in your view? What is the role of Guru Nanak?

2. Imagine if he was here today and you could speak to him for 2 hours a day. What would that look like?
 
Aug 28, 2010
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One should know from Gurbanee the role of NANAK in Human Form.
In human form Nanak has refered himself as Das of Hari or Simply as Jun.
Nanak as GuROO/GuRu is being refered to the JOTi Form of the Creator.

Try to understand this aspect of Gurbanee messages in context of Nanak as Human /and as GuRoo.
As JOTi Form the Creator NANAK DEV ji is ever before us as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Prakash.S.Bagga
 
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Luckysingh

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Guru Nanak is the guide for akal purakh. A little like the tour guides we get before we embark on the destination.
As a human, I prefer to use the term Guru for him and the other 9 Guru's. The 'Guru' term can also be used for akal purakh, but most feel comfortable using it as stated and for the Nanak jyot as mentioned present in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
That's where my definiton for 'Guru' actually ends, as there is no more guru jyot after this, except for 'antaryami' within.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Prakash ji,
Guru Nanak being the sevak, das of Hari is fine. That's who he is in his personal relationship with Hari.
I ask you again.
1. what is his role in relation to other people?

2. In relation to you?

Lucky Singh ji,
Go in depth. How is a Guru supposed to guide the sikhs?
 

Luckysingh

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Lucky Singh ji,
Go in depth. How is a Guru supposed to guide the sikhs?

I think it's suffice to say that the word of the guru or the shabad is to be the eternal guide.
On another note , that you should understand is that most non -sikhs, when they meditate have some sort of a guide to aid them.
In my case, I usually prefer to picture an image of Guru Nanak when I start meditating. I see it as my personal guide to aid me on my journey and I'm sure most others have something similar.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Lucky Singh ji,
In my case, I usually prefer to picture an image of Guru Nanak when I start meditating. I see it as my personal guide to aid me on my journey and I'm sure most others have something similar.
There's a shabad on that exactly.
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
गुर का सबदु राखु मन माहि ॥
Gur kā sabaḏ rākẖ man māhi.
Keep the Word of the Guru's Shabad in your mind.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਸਭ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
नामु सिमरि चिंता सभ जाहि ॥१॥
Nām simar cẖinṯā sabẖ jāhi. ||1||
Meditating in remembrance on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, all anxiety is removed. ||1||

ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
बिनु भगवंत नाही अन कोइ ॥
Bin bẖagvanṯ nāhī an ko▫e.
Without the Lord God, there is no one else at all.

ਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਖੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मारै राखै एको सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mārai rākẖai eko so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He alone preserves and destroys. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਰਿਦੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
गुर के चरण रिदै उरि धारि ॥
Gur ke cẖaraṇ riḏai ur ḏẖār.
Enshrine the Guru's Feet in your heart.

ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਜਪਿ ਉਤਰਹਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
अगनि सागरु जपि उतरहि पारि ॥२॥
Agan sāgar jap uṯrėh pār. ||2||
Meditate on Him and cross over the ocean of fire. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਇ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
गुर मूरति सिउ लाइ धिआनु ॥
Gur mūraṯ si▫o lā▫e ḏẖi▫ān.
Focus your meditation on the Guru's Murti.

ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
ईहा ऊहा पावहि मानु ॥३॥
Īhā ūhā pāvahi mān. ||3||
Here and hereafter, you shall be honored. ||3||

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣੀ ਆਇਆ ॥
सगल तिआगि गुर सरणी आइआ ॥
Sagal ṯi▫āg gur sarṇī ā▫i▫ā.
Renouncing everything, I have come to the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਮਿਟੇ ਅੰਦੇਸੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬੧॥੧੩੦॥
मिटे अंदेसे नानक सुखु पाइआ ॥४॥६१॥१३०॥
Mite anḏese Nānak sukẖ pā▫i▫ā. ||4||61||130||
My anxieties are over - O Nanak, I have found peace. ||4||61||130||

Page 192
 

Luckysingh

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'Bin bhagwaan nahi an koi'
'Marai rakhai ekhee so-e'

It's a beautiful shabad that goes in line very well.
Who said there were no instructions for us from the guru to meditate ??
 

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