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The Entire Raag Mala: The Last 2 Parts Missing?

Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Within a few das das will try to bring in each and evry differnce but here also das has taken care of that thing regarding various phonatics represented differntly by Nagri and Gurmukhi script ie those words which were in differnt spelling due to change of scripts but sounded the same are not underlined.

Das is pasting Raagmala with Nagri script below.

ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ
राग माला ॥
raag maalaa.
Raag Maalaa:

ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ
राग एक संगि पंच बरंगन ॥
raag ayk sang panch barangan.
Each Raga has five wives,

ਸੰਗਿ ਅਲਾਪਹਿ ਆਠਉ ਨੰਦਨ
संगि अलापहि आठउ नंदन ॥
sang alaapeh aath-o nandan.
and eight sons, who emit distinctive notes.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਰਾਗ ਭੈਰਉ ਵੈ ਕਰਹੀ
प्रथम राग भैरउ वै करही ॥
paratham raag bhairo vai karhee.
In the first place is Raag Bhairao.
ਪੰਚ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਚਰਹੀ
पंच रागनी संगि उचरही ॥
panch raagnee sang uchrahee.
It is accompanied by the voices of its five Raaginis:

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੀ
प्रथम भैरवी बिलावली ॥
paratham bhairvee bilaavalee.
First come Bhairavee, and Bilaavalee;

ਪੁੰਨਿਆਕੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਬੰਗਲੀ
पुंनिआकी गावहि बंगली ॥
punni-aakee gaavahi banglee.
then the songs of Punni-aakee and Bangalee;

ਪੁਨਿ ਅਸਲੇਖੀ ਕੀ ਭਈ ਬਾਰੀ
पुनि असलेखी की भई बारी ॥
pun aslaykhee kee bha-ee baaree.
and then Asalaykhee.

ਭੈਰਉ ਕੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਨਾਰੀ
ए भैरउ की पाचउ नारी ॥
ay bhairo kee paacha-o naaree.
These are the five consorts of Bhairao.

ਪੰਚਮ ਹਰਖ ਦਿਸਾਖ ਸੁਨਾਵਹਿ
पंचम हरख दिसाख सुनावहि ॥
pancham harakh disaakh sunaaveh.
The sounds of Pancham, Harakh and Disaakh;

ਬੰਗਾਲਮ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਧਵ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥
बंगालम मधु माधव गावहि ॥१॥
bangaalam maDh maaDhav gaavahi. ||1||
the songs of Bangaalam, Madh and Maadhav. ||1||

ਲਲਤ ਬਿਲਾਵਲ ਗਾਵਹੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ
ललत बिलावल गावही अपुनी अपुनी भांति ॥
lalat bilaaval gaavhee apunee apunee bhaaNt.
Lalat and Bilaaval - each gives out its own melody.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੇ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗਾਇਨ ਪਾਤ੍ਰ ॥੧॥
असट पुत्र भैरव के गावहि गाइन पात्र ॥१॥
asat putar bhairav kay gaavahi gaa-in paatar. ||1||
when these eight sons of Bhairao are sung by accomplished musicians. ||1||

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਆਲਾਪਹਿ
दुतीआ मालकउसक आलापहि ॥
dutee-aa maalka-usak aalaapeh.
In the second family is Maalakausak,

ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਥਾਪਹਿ
संगि रागनी पाचउ थापहि ॥
sang raagnee paacha-o thaapeh.
who brings his five Raaginis:

ਗੋਂਡਕਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ
गोंडकरी अरु देवगंधारी ॥
goNdkaree ar dayvganDhaaree.
Gondakaree and Dayv Gandhaaree,

ਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਸੀਹੁਤੀ ਉਚਾਰੀ
गंधारी सीहुती उचारी ॥
ganDhaaree seehutee uchaaree.
the voices of Gandhaaree and Seehutee,

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਗਾਈ
धनासरी ए पाचउ गाई ॥
Dhanaasree ay paacha-o gaa-ee.
and the fifth song of Dhanaasaree.

ਮਾਲ ਰਾਗ ਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ
माल राग कउसक संगि लाई ॥
maal raag ka-usak sang laa-ee.
This chain of Maalakausak brings along:

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਸਤਅੰਗ ਮੇਵਾਰਾ
मारू मसतअंग मेवारा ॥
maaroo masatang mayvaaraa.
Maaroo, Masta-ang and Mayvaaraa,

ਪ੍ਰਬਲਚੰਡ ਕਉਸਕ ਉਭਾਰਾ
प्रबलचंड कउसक उभारा ॥
parabalchand ka-usak ubhaaraa.
Prabal, Chandakausak,

ਖਉਖਟ ਅਉ ਭਉਰਾਨਦ ਗਾਏ
खउखट अउ भउरानद गाए ॥
kha-ukhat a-o bha-uraanad gaa-ay.
Khau, Khat and Bauraanad singing.

ਅਸਟ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਏ ॥੧॥
असट मालकउसक संगि लाए ॥१॥
asat maalka-usak sang laa-ay. ||1||
These are the eight sons of Maalakausak. ||1||

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਇਅਉ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਪੰਚ ਨਾਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਸਟ ਸੁਤ
पुनि आइअउ हिंडोलु पंच नारि संगि असट सुत ॥
pun aa-i-a-o hindol panch naar sang asat sut.
Then comes Hindol with his five wives and eight sons;

ਉਠਹਿ ਤਾਨ ਕਲੋਲ ਗਾਇਨ ਤਾਰ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ॥੧॥
उठहि तान कलोल गाइन तार मिलावही ॥१॥
utheh taan kalol gaa-in taar milaavahee. ||1||
it rises in waves when the sweet-voiced chorus sings. ||1||

ਤੇਲੰਗੀ ਦੇਵਕਰੀ ਆਈ
तेलंगी देवकरी आई ॥
taylangee dayvkaree aa-ee.
There come Taylangee and Darvakaree;

ਬਸੰਤੀ ਸੰਦੂਰ ਸੁਹਾਈ
बसंती संदूर सुहाई ॥
basantee sandoor suhaa-ee.
Basantee and Sandoor follow;

ਸਰਸ ਅਹੀਰੀ ਲੈ ਭਾਰਜਾ
सरस अहीरी लै भारजा ॥
saras aheeree lai bhaarjaa.
then Aheeree, the finest of women.

ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਆਰਜਾ
संगि लाई पांचउ आरजा ॥
sang laa-ee paaNcha-o aarjaa.
These five wives come together.

ਸੁਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਭਾਸਕਰ ਆਏ
सुरमानंद भासकर आए ॥
surmaanand bhaaskar aa-ay.
The sons: Surmaanand and Bhaaskar come,

ਚੰਦ੍ਰਬਿੰਬ ਮੰਗਲਨ ਸੁਹਾਏ
चंद्रबि्मब मंगलन सुहाए ॥
chandarbimb manglan suhaa-ay.
Chandrabinb and Mangalan follow.

ਸਰਸਬਾਨ ਅਉ ਆਹਿ ਬਿਨੋਦਾ
सरसबान अउ आहि बिनोदा ॥
sarasbaan a-o aahi binodaa.
Sarasbaan and Binodaa then come,

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਰਸ ਬਸੰਤ ਕਮੋਦਾ
गावहि सरस बसंत कमोदा ॥
gaavahi saras basant kamodaa.
and the thrilling songs of Basant and Kamodaa.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਕਹੇ ਸਵਾਰੀ
असट पुत्र मै कहे सवारी ॥
asat putar mai kahay savaaree.
These are the eight sons I have listed.

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਈ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
पुनि आई दीपक की बारी ॥१॥
pun aa-ee deepak kee baaree. ||1||
Then comes the turn of Deepak. ||1||

ਕਛੇਲੀ ਪਟਮੰਜਰੀ ਟੋਡੀ ਕਹੀ ਅਲਾਪਿ
कछेली पटमंजरी टोडी कही अलापि ॥
kachhaylee patmanjree todee kahee alaap.
Kachhaylee, Patamanjaree and Todee are sung;

ਕਾਮੋਦੀ ਅਉ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਥਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
कामोदी अउ गूजरी संगि दीपक के थापि ॥१॥
kaamodee a-o goojree sang deepak kay thaap. ||1||
Kaamodee and Goojaree accompany Deepak. ||1||

ਕਾਲੰਕਾ ਕੁੰਤਲ ਅਉ ਰਾਮਾ
कालंका कुंतल अउ रामा ॥
kaalankaa kuntal a-o raamaa.
Kaalankaa, Kuntal and Raamaa,

ਕਮਲਕੁਸਮ ਚੰਪਕ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ
कमलकुसम च्मपक के नामा ॥
kamalkusam champak kay naamaa.
Kamalakusam and Champak are their names;

ਗਉਰਾ ਅਉ ਕਾਨਰਾ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ
गउरा अउ कानरा कल्याना ॥
ga-uraa a-o kaanraa kal-yaanaa.
Gauraa, Kaanaraa and Kaylaanaa;

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
असट पुत्र दीपक के जाना ॥१॥
asat putar deepak kay jaanaa. ||1||
these are the eight sons of Deepak. ||1||

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ
सभ मिलि सिरीराग वै गावहि ॥
sabh mil sireeraag vai gaavahi.
All join together and sing Siree Raag,

ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ
पांचउ संगि बरंगन लावहि ॥
paaNcha-o sang barangan laaveh.
which is accompanied by its five wives.:

ਬੈਰਾਰੀ ਕਰਨਾਟੀ ਧਰੀ
बैरारी करनाटी धरी ॥
bairaaree karnaatee Dharee.
Bairaaree and Karnaatee,

ਗਵਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾਵਰੀ
गवरी गावहि आसावरी ॥
gavree gaaveh aasaavaree.
the songs of Gawree and Aasaavaree;

ਤਿਹ ਪਾਛੈ ਸਿੰਧਵੀ ਅਲਾਪੀ
तिह पाछै सिंधवी अलापी ॥
tih paachhai sinDhvee alaapee.
then follows Sindhavee.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਥਾਪੀ ॥੧॥
सिरीराग सिउ पांचउ थापी ॥१॥
sireeraag si-o paaNcha-o thaapee. ||1||
These are the five wives of Siree Raag. ||1||

ਸਾਲੂ ਸਾਰਗ ਸਾਗਰਾ ਅਉਰ ਗੋਂਡ ਗੰਭੀਰ
सालू सारग सागरा अउर गोंड ग्मभीर ॥
saaloo saarag saagraa a-or gond gambheer.
Saaloo, Saarang, Saagaraa, Gond and Gambheer -

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗ ਕੇ ਗੁੰਡ ਕੁੰਭ ਹਮੀਰ ॥੧॥
असट पुत्र स्रीराग के गुंड कु्मभ हमीर ॥१॥
asat putar sareeraag kay gund kumbh hameer. ||1||
the eight sons of Siree Raag include Gund, Kumb and Hameer. ||1||

ਖਸਟਮ ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ
खसटम मेघ राग वै गावहि ॥
khastam maygh raag vai gaavahi.
In the sixth place, Maygh Raag is sung,

ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ
पांचउ संगि बरंगन लावहि ॥
paaNcha-o sang barangan laaveh.
with its five wives in accompaniment:

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਗੋਂਡ ਮਲਾਰੀ ਧੁਨੀ
सोरठि गोंड मलारी धुनी ॥
sorath gond malaaree Dhunee.
Sorat'h, Gond, and the melody of Malaaree;

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾ ਗੁਨ ਗੁਨੀ
पुनि गावहि आसा गुन गुनी ॥
pun gaavahi aasaa gun gunee.
then the harmonies of Aasaa are sung.

ਊਚੈ ਸੁਰਿ ਸੂਹਉ ਪੁਨਿ ਕੀਨੀ
ऊचै सुरि सूहउ पुनि कीनी ॥
oochai sur sooha-o pun keenee.
And finally comes the high tone Soohau.

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਚੀਨੀ ॥੧॥
मेघ राग सिउ पांचउ चीनी ॥१॥
maygh raag si-o paaNcha-o cheenee. ||1||
These are the five with Maygh Raag. ||1||

ਬੈਰਾਧਰ ਗਜਧਰ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ
बैराधर गजधर केदारा ॥
bairaaDhar gajDhar kaydaaraa.
Bairaadhar, Gajadhar, Kaydaaraa,

ਜਬਲੀਧਰ ਨਟ ਅਉ ਜਲਧਾਰਾ
जबलीधर नट अउ जलधारा ॥
jableeDhar nat a-o jalDhaaraa.
Jabaleedhar, Nat and Jaladhaaraa.

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਕਰ ਅਉ ਸਿਆਮਾ
पुनि गावहि संकर अउ सिआमा ॥
pun gaavahi sankar a-o si-aamaa.
Then come the songs of Shankar and Shi-aamaa.

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥
मेघ राग पुत्रन के नामा ॥१॥
maygh raag putran kay naamaa. ||1||
These are the names of the sons of Maygh Raag. ||1||

ਖਸਟ ਰਾਗ ਉਨਿ ਗਾਏ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਤੀਸ
खसट राग उनि गाए संगि रागनी तीस ॥
khasat raag un gaa-ay sang raagnee tees.
So all together, they sing the six Raagas and the thirty Raaginis,

ਸਭੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਗੰਨ ਕੇ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਦਸ ਬੀਸ ॥੧॥੧॥
सभै पुत्र रागंन के अठारह दस बीस ॥१॥१॥
sabhai putar raagann kay athaarah das bees. ||1||1||
and all the forty-eight sons of the Raagas. ||1||1||

kindlt start from first underlined word in Alam's work first underline word is Ek ie एक in image attched.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

tranlitration as follows.

Das did not underline those words which are writtan in Nagri and Gumukhi in differnt spellings but sound the same.
Ek raag Sang Paanch Ragini.
Sang Alapai Athon Nandan(i)..
Pratham Raag Bhairav ucharahi.
Pancho Kamini Sang Suhahin..
Pratham Bhairavi Puni Bilavali.
Puni Jaki Gave Bangaali..
Puni Asavari Au Bairari.
Ye Bhairo Ki Pancho Nari..
Pancham Harsh de Sath Sunave.
Pingali Madho Madhav Gavai..
lalit bialwal Gavahin apni Apni bhant(i).
Ast Putra Bhairav Kahain Gain Gave Pant(i)..
Dutin Malkauns Alapai.
Panch Kamini sangat Thapai..
Gaudi Kati Au Devgandhari.
Gandhari si hutin Uchari..
Dhansiri ye Pancho Kamini.
Malkauns Ke Sang Subhanmini..
Maru Mastak ang Mewara.
Prabal Candra Kaunsik Aon bhara..
ghunghatt au Bhauran drig Gai.
Malkauns atho sut bhaay..
puni ayo hindol Panch kamini ast Sut.
uthai sau taal Kilol Gayin taan mialwahi..
Telangi Pun(i) dev Girai.
wasanti Sindhuri Suhai..
sa Aheri Lai Aya Raja.
sang alapahi panch Bharja..
sur man nand bhasm kari aayi.
chandr bib Mangali suahai..
saraswan Au aahi vinoda.
Gavain Saras Basantak moda..
Ast Putra main Kahe Savari.
puni aye deepak ki bari..
Kachhali patt majari tohi Kahi alap(i).
Kamodi Au Gujari sang Deepakain thap(i)..
Kal Kal au kuntal Rama.
Kamal Kusum Champak ke nama..
gaurhi kanhriy kalyana.
ast putr deepak ke jana..
sabh mil(i) wahi sri Ragai Gavain.
Panchau Sang varang alapai..
bairati Karnati dhari.
gauri Gavain Asawari..
Puni Pachhai Sinddhavi alapi.
Siri raag Sang Panchau thapi..
sava Sarang Sagara au gandhari bheer.
ast Putr shri raag Ke Gol vund Gambheer..
Ast Megh Raaj Wai Gavain.
Pancho Sang Warangan(i) Lyavain..
Saur Gaurhmalari dhuni.
puni gavai Asa gun guni..
Ooche Sur Son Suhon kini.
Megh Rag Sang Pancho Chinhi..
beera ghar Gaj aru Kedara.
chandoli ghar nit Ujiyara..
Pun(i) Gave baskar Au Syama.
megh Rag Pun(i) tin ke nama..
ast Raag ye sakal sang raginiy gan(i) tees.
Sabh Sut ragan ke kahe atharah das bees..



Forgive das if any speeling mistakes as work was done in a hurry.
 

aman1234

SPNer
Sep 7, 2009
6
16
harsimrat it seems u r out of ur mind.
i hope u don't repeat ur post or ur words again.
How much is the need of the spread of correct sikhi can be gauged from ur post.
whatever is written in guru granth sahib is the word of the lord.
u can't change it or susupect it.
i hope waheguru blesses u with a good mind.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,197
amand1234 ji

Thank you for your contribution. The raagmala is not even part of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Those stanzas were added many years after the final sections bearing the signature of the 5th Nanak, the bani of Guru Teg Bahadur and the seloka of Guru Gobind Singh. A bad joke if it were funny. It is the stuff of continued controversy. The idea that there is more that is missing and waiting to be added just reinforces the irritation of those who have become totally disaffected with attempts to improve on the the Bani of the Gurus and efforts to diminish the authority of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in order to promote various agendas. Stuff of another discussion. :welcome:
 

harman deep

SPNer
Aug 22, 2010
7
3
49
This can be found Shamsher Singh Ashok's book on Rag Mala . It was printed by shromani Gurudwara perbadhak kmatee, Amritsar but due to politics it is not printed in these days. These are verses from Madhev nal Kam Kundlan Kissa which is printed in full from so that any body can know
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,197
This can be found Shamsher Singh Ashok's book on Rag Mala . It was printed by shromani Gurudwara perbadhak kmatee, Amritsar but due to politics it is not printed in these days. These are verses from Madhev nal Kam Kundlan Kissa which is printed in full from so that any body can know
harman deep ji

Forgive me. But it is due to politics that the Raag Mala is in Guru Granth to begin with.

It is not part of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as sealed by Guru Gobind Singh. It was added much later and forced upon the panth not too long ago.
 

harman deep

SPNer
Aug 22, 2010
7
3
49
Resectable sister,
I have read the whole discussion. Now these days it is our right that we should know what actual is. As veer ji is respectful to every body it is the choice of our new generation. The main thing which is most important is that we must know what everyone is thinking and we may have our own attitude.
Veer Vijaydeep Singh ji it is also important to study how Ragmala is followed by the persons who are full supporters of Ragmala if it is studied how Rags should be sing according to Ragmala than it will helpful to clear whole picture. I have today learnt that written script of Ragas are produced first in Iran after that Bhatkhande write the script for rags. It is not only important to read Ragmala but it is also important how it should be followed. Why till now we can not produce the system for rags, ragis. Why we can manot have the Ragis of Pandit Bhim Sen Joshi Stature. We are fighting for Ragmala but is the position of singing according to ragas. There is no doubt we are following the Indian Classical System But it is equally important that how much our system is influenced by ragi Ghranas Of Iran and Panjabi folk singing. As wars are ordered to sing according to some folk singing( tunde As raje ki dhuni gawni) .Most important is this we are only guessing about the ‘Ghar’ phrase.
Vijaydeep Singh is working in right direction though we not accept the whole work anyone we must have to recognize the wisdom which is shown if it is present in the work.Vijaydeep Singh ji it is also important to study is according to ancient traditional notations of our old traditional ragis upto how much extent all these systems are followed. What is Hunmant mat and what is Bhart Mat. and most important is that where all these stand in That Rag Padhti. All these aspects need to be studied and answered. If we can not follow Rag Mala than what is the purpose. It is also picks our intention. I am also ready to help you in these studies.If you give me to serve with you. Guru Fateh parvan hove jio.

Harmandeep Singh
 

findingmyway

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When I read the Raag Mala sometime back I couldn't understand what it was trying to teach me. The language felt different to the rest of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Then 1 year ago I was introduced to this document which talks about Raag Mala from the perspective of Gurbani, from a historical perspective, from a political perspective, looking at the arguments for and against, from the point of view about how well it fits in with the rest of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, from a musical point of view and the meaning. It is an excellent piece of work and is worth the investment of time to read it. It is all in English accompanied by quotes from Gurbani.
http://www.sikhs.wellington.net.nz/ragmala.pdf

In the case the link doesn't work I have also attached the pdf. If it still doesn't work then please let me know and I will be happy to email it to you.
I was going to write a summary but I think it is worthy of study as a lot of the information will be lost in summarising. Just a final point, the raagmala is not read in Akal Takht so that should speak volumes!

Happy reading!
Jasleen Kaur
 

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spnadmin

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Jasleen ji

Forgive me for being so emphatic. The language is different because the raag mala was not written by any of 5 gurus, sants and bhagats whose work was included by Guru Arjan Dev. Later, Guru Gobind Singh sealed the Guru Granth after adding the bani of his father Guru Teg Bahadur. So arguments that favor raag mala's inclusion in Guru Granth Sahib are as per the party line of SGPC and not per gurmat.

When Guru Gobind Singh declared that Sri Guru Granth was our Guru, the raag mala was not part of it. If two parts are missing, that is almost academic.

Therefore it has no business being part of the granth, yet the SGPC insisted it be included. It is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

One of the major divisions within the panth has its origins in the inclusion of raag mala. No one really knows who wrote it. But the authorship of the Guru Granth is as clear as a sunny day. Not to forget, each page of the Aad Granth is signed by Nanak 5 himself. And on top of that the raag mala includes raags that are not even part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

So what is it doing there? And why do some consider it legitimate? The answer is politics.
 

spnadmin

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Resectable sister,
I have read the whole discussion. Now these days it is our right that we should know what actual is. As veer ji is respectful to every body it is the choice of our new generation. The main thing which is most important is that we must know what everyone is thinking and we may have our own attitude.
Veer Vijaydeep Singh ji it is also important to study how Ragmala is followed by the persons who are full supporters of Ragmala if it is studied how Rags should be sing according to Ragmala than it will helpful to clear whole picture. I have today learnt that written script of Ragas are produced first in Iran after that Bhatkhande write the script for rags. It is not only important to read Ragmala but it is also important how it should be followed. Why till now we can not produce the system for rags, ragis. Why we can manot have the Ragis of Pandit Bhim Sen Joshi Stature. We are fighting for Ragmala but is the position of singing according to ragas. There is no doubt we are following the Indian Classical System But it is equally important that how much our system is influenced by ragi Ghranas Of Iran and Panjabi folk singing. As wars are ordered to sing according to some folk singing( tunde As raje ki dhuni gawni) .Most important is this we are only guessing about the ‘Ghar’ phrase.
Vijaydeep Singh is working in right direction though we not accept the whole work anyone we must have to recognize the wisdom which is shown if it is present in the work.Vijaydeep Singh ji it is also important to study is according to ancient traditional notations of our old traditional ragis upto how much extent all these systems are followed. What is Hunmant mat and what is Bhart Mat. and most important is that where all these stand in That Rag Padhti. All these aspects need to be studied and answered. If we can not follow Rag Mala than what is the purpose. It is also picks our intention. I am also ready to help you in these studies.If you give me to serve with you. Guru Fateh parvan hove jio.

Harmandeep Singh
Harmandeep Singh ji

Please give my warm regards to Veer Vijaydeep Singh ji. I must tell you that he has been trying for 2 years to "teach" me the errors of my ways with no success. Nonetheless I love my brother.

Out of pure curiosity...why do take authorities in Iran and Vijaydeep Singh ji to be convincing authorities? More convincing let us say than Sikh scholars on the other side of this controversy?
 
Aug 19, 2005
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harsimrat it seems u r out of ur mind.
i hope u don't repeat ur post or ur words again.
How much is the need of the spread of correct sikhi can be gauged from ur post.
whatever is written in guru granth sahib is the word of the lord.
u can't change it or susupect it.
i hope waheguru blesses u with a good mind.
No, I am not out of my mind. You are correct to believe all that is written in the Guru Granth Sahib (not your Hinduized verson forced into every gurdwara), but the original Guru Granth Sahib does not have Raag Mala. There is alot of political propoganda funded by pakandi saints and RSS to promote and shove Rag Mala in Guru Granth Sahib done hundreds of years ago by the Hindu leaders, chasing the Sikhs into the wilderness, pressuring them to believe Rag Mala and so much Poojariism, not Sikhism. They have brainwashed the undeducated peasants and formed a Taliban disguised as Amritdhari Sikhs to force people to follow Hindu ways, not pure Sikhism.

Only people out of their mind believe Rag Mala, because they have no mind at all, only a mind imposed on them by exploiters. Fake Sikhs. Look what they did to Professor Darshan Singh, they call him only Raagi Singh out of disrespect.

When akhanda paat or sehaij paat is recited, Rag Mala is not required; however to keep the peace in the sangat, if the family requests Raag Mala to be read, there is no problem reading it, the paath is complete anyway after reciting of Mundavenee.
 

findingmyway

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Jasleen ji

Forgive me for being so emphatic. The language is different because the raag mala was not written by any of 5 gurus, sants and bhagats whose work was included by Guru Arjan Dev. Later, Guru Gobind Singh sealed the Guru Granth after adding the bani of his father Guru Teg Bahadur. So arguments that favor raag mala's inclusion in Guru Granth Sahib are as per the party line of SGPC and not per gurmat.

When Guru Gobind Singh declared that Sri Guru Granth was our Guru, the raag mala was not part of it. If two parts are missing, that is almost academic.

Therefore it has no business being part of the granth, yet the SGPC insisted it be included. It is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

One of the major divisions within the panth has its origins in the inclusion of raag mala. No one really knows who wrote it. But the authorship of the Guru Granth is as clear as a sunny day. Not to forget, each page of the Aad Granth is signed by Nanak 5 himself. And on top of that the raag mala includes raags that are not even part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

So what is it doing there? And why do some consider it legitimate? The answer is politics.
Dear Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

I agree with you totally and what you are saying is what the document proves without a shadow of a doubt which is why I urge everyone to read it. It disproves ragmala from every possible angle which is why I have posted it here so there is no further discussion as everything is covered by the study in my last post. I perhaps should have expanded further but i would like believers in the ragmala to read the document so the issue can be laid to rest :aagree:
 

spnadmin

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findingmyway ji

All I can say is Ah! Thanks! You are a sevadhar and a sant to post the study, as an attachment, so that all can download it and study it from page 1. Sadly i cannot figure out why the matter cannot be laid to rest. Why does it fester? Perhaps this can be explained by a forum member with deeper understanding than I have.
 

harman deep

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Aug 22, 2010
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Stikar yog guru khalsa jio,
Wheguru Gi Ka Khalsa , Waheguru ji ki Fateh,
I Have read the link suggested by Jasleen Kaur ji, Naranjoyt Kaur jio, to my view to study the Rag system is that I have a few knowledge of our new system of teaching classical music. Ragmala is a system to make the composition of different Ragas understands to students.Firstly it was Ragang Padhiti (only name of rags), after that Rag Ragini Padhiti(Names of Rag Raginis) than now it is that Rag Padhiti. So the difference between them is necessary to understand.In Indian classical music firstly music is used to achieve Bramgyan, this system is not here. by now after that the present classical music system is present.The actual names for these I don’t remember by now. In ancient times there is no system which can show notations in written form. The system to understand ragas is started only a century before our time by Pt. Bhatkhande.This claimed by muslim scholars that musiki is firstly given by them and starts from Iran after that followed by Bhatkhande.

You may think why I am saying so, but according to my thinking it is very necessary to understand all this and if we are not singing rags according to the lines of Ragmala than what is the relevance of it. It becomes more important if we are not following the Guru Granth Sahib than why we argue over it. It is important for Vijaydeep Singh.How many supporters of Ragamala understand ragas.

The second thing which verr Vijaydeep Singh is saying that there are gurbani which can resemble with Ragmala please code me one verses which is without teaching Nam and GOD now you will coat 'tunde *** raje ki dhuni' which is again not a well argument as mentioned by Madan Singh the link given by Jasleen Kaur.

The important thing Narayanjot Kaur ji, it is not established that there is any Bir which can be said as signed by Guru without Ragmala.This is the main cause of controversy

According to me the position of Ragmala is that one party can not prove till now how ragmala is included and second party can not prove how ragamala is gurbani so more efforts are necessary to understand this issue.

The important thing which we all must have to understand that we are discussing to know about the truth. We may be wrong or we may be right

The appreciable thing is that though the ragmala supporters can not prove that Ragmala is Gurbani But their intensions are not bad because it can lead more controvercies and it is very much important to remain Guru Granth Sahib as intact and not venerable to change. So that richness of tradition can be protected.

The book suggested by Jasleen is worthy to read but much more research is necessary to make this issue more and clearer.

I think as suggested by veer Vijaydeep Singh no such scientific research is necessary at this stage it is necessary that all the versions of Bir should be put on sights so that every one can know . It is strange thing one claims that he has seen Bir without Rgamala and the other claim that the same Bir is with Ragmala .So all the picture should be clear on net so that everybody can know.

At the end I think it is clear that ragmala may be Bani or not but it is not practised by Sikhs . As Sikhs has no traditional history to fellow Ragmala as common Sikh can recite Gurbani but are not ready to hear Rags.They only hear Gurbani with Rag but if rag dominates no one is ready to listen. So it is also necessary to understand and it is tradition also.It is also a fact that 99% Sikh recognize ragmala because it is written in Guru Granth Sahib but not follow it.There may be any one but i can not know him please tell me who follow ragamala.Vijaydeep Singh ji you follow ragmala.
 
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findingmyway

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findingmyway ji

All I can say is Ah! Thanks! You are a sevadhar and a sant to post the study, as an attachment, so that all can download it and study it from page 1. Sadly i cannot figure out why the matter cannot be laid to rest. Why does it fester? Perhaps this can be explained by a forum member with deeper understanding than I have.
I think it is because the akal takht is not firm enough. They need to stand their ground as it has been proved beyond doubt that ragmala is not part of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, unfortunately the jathedars there are not willing to endorse what they know is right as they are too afraid of controversy. Just leading by example is evidently not enough for the sangat. The Gurus would never have let this issue carry on so long.


Harman Deep Ji, I suggest you read the study again. All the points you have raised have been addressed. It clearly shows the rag system in ragmala does not actually match up to the raags used in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji therefore it cannot be used as a teaching tool. The entire history and politics of the ragmala is recounted in the study proving it is NOT gurbani adn has no value. If the akal takht won't recite it then surely that is a very big sign?! The study proves it is not gurbani by discussing not only the origins but also the inconsistencies in the ragmala showing it was authored by someone who did not understand the layout nad numbering system in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji very well. What more proof do you need?
 

harman deep

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Narayanjot Kaur jio,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji KI Fateh

Till now i not only study the things but also understand.Why are not you ready to explore more and stressing on the point which you find is correct. Man may be correct or incorrect. I know these mats are written so many times . But what is going on in the system of Indian Classical Ragas and the teachers what are they teaching now in these days is never kept in mind . If i tried to show more thing you have closed the door. I have read all these things 15 years ago but when i encounter with the classical Rag system than i know the picture is totaly different.

All your arguments are also encountered by the beleivers of Ragmala you must know the thing.This the problem of our that we not want to study the thing more we think we know very much. Madan Singh has made a very good effort but much more is necessary to be done. I can say at this time that ragmala is Gurbani but the thinking of these days says i may be right or wrong so always open the doors to understand every view.Foremost i want to adress Vijaydeep Singh because of his approach, So that thing should become more clear.Sorry if anything hurt to anybody.

Veer Aman ji Gi we must respect what we know but if we don't know anything than what is the meaning to beleive on thing. which you beleive you must practise it and if you can not practise it than what it mean to believe. 'Shubh Amlan Bajhon Dowan Roi'
 

findingmyway

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Narayanjot Kaur jio,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji KI Fateh

Madan Singh has made a very good effort but much more is necessary to be done.

Please elaborate. Which aspects need more work? What still convinces you of the authenticity of the ragmala? Please can you provide proof? I am genuinely interested as always keen to learn.
 

harman deep

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Though i am not after only to prove ragmala right . But for the proper handling this issue needs to understand the system of Indian Classical Music.
First thing put by Giani Gurdit Singh an interview of a musician to show that rag mala has no ralavance which is tried to encounter by Ragi Balbir Singh
A group of Ragi have a kirtan darbar based on ragas of Ragmala in Jawaddi .they say that the remaining raga are for the bani which is not covered under different rags of Shri Guru Grant Sahib ji.
I have very few hints which are necessary to be cleared that the Swrup of Ragas fixed by rag Nirnayak Commitee Jawddi Taksal give the notations which are not perhaps according to ragmala. You will astonish to know that there is no clear guidelines for Sikh Ragis how the different Rags should be sung because there are differences in Indian Classical Music too. So for the first time in this century some swru of Ragas are formed which were based upon the traditional swrups sung by Ragis from very long time . This is the real picture how the believers of Rag mala follow it.
So all the happening and the systems must necessary to answer the questions that what is the actual swrup of Gumat Sangeet and where Ragmala actually stands in the actual practices of Sikhs.
The other strange thing i came to know when Giani Gurdit Singh was asked that if the Bir coated by you have Ragmala than why you coat them. He give the answer that Giani Joginder Singh Vadanti who was Jathedar Akal Takhat when he apologise before Akal Takhat , was with me at that time and i have given pictures he is not ready to speak and what i in this condition of ill health can do. This is one seen of picture may be right may be wrong . Now one party is saying about the Birs without Ragmala and the other party is saying the same Bir are with ragmala what can you and me conclude. So all mistry should be put before evrybody because it is not the age in which we can believe on only the words of the other ones without waching the things entirly. There are so many things which are to be studied
 

spnadmin

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harman deep ji

There is not a doubt in my mind that all of us need to learn more about the classical forms of Indian music. And most of us can do a better job to practice what we know.

If raagmala is part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then it must be considered gurbani, the Guru's bani. That poses a problem. Primary source evidence that is needed to resolve this problem is either missing or suspected to have been destroyed. Therefore the only sensible conclusion can be that the status of raagmala as gurbani must be questioned.

Yes - the original Damdami bir has gone missing and we don't know if the raagmala was included. And Madan Singh ji makes an excellent point in response to this observation. IT DOESN'T MATTER ON THE BASIS OF LOGIC ALONE.

The mundavani and saloka seal the Guru Granth, and not because it is argued they are placed at the end. This is a common error of thinking. As if Nanak 10 sealed the granth and then changed his mind. The mundavani and saloka are not there as a back wall to a house and the architect decided to construct an addition a few years later to make room for more thought.

They the mundavani and saloka seal the Guru Granth as a matter of gurmat.

There is even a case of one hand-written swaroop which ends before raagmala with "Eh bhog Sri Aad Giranth jee hai". If you zoom in on the page you will be able to see it in the image.

Is it logical or likely that Guru Gobind Singh would have added an entire section to the end of the Guru Granth for the purpose of introducing a raag system that is completely different from the system in which Sri Guru Granth is constructed - without any explanation? This again is very unlikely. It would suggest that either he was unaware of the raag system of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or was stirring up confusion while indulging in an academic exercise.

Another question that falls into the category of logical reservations. If Nanak 10 sealed the granth, then who dared to add to it?

Is anyone prepared to say that it is the writing of our Gurus, or a sant, bhat or bhagat as approved by Guru Gobind Singh?? Was there any notation anywhere or even an oral tradition coming from his contemporaries that tells us that he wrote it?

My last question should clarify why I am skeptical of sources that you have cited.
 

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spnadmin

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Though i am not after only to prove ragmala right . But for the proper handling this issue needs to understand the system of Indian Classical Music.

harman deep singh ji

Your above comment is the premise of those who need to include the raagmala as part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. From this premise all of the other justifications and arguments that raagmala is part of SGGS gain their steam.

A simple objection can be made in return. The premise would make sense if Sri
Guru Granth Sahib were written to be a sourcebook of Indian classical music for musicians. It is not. It was written to be a book of spiritual enlightenment, and it was declared our Guru by Nanak X. Guru maneyo granth!

As Madan Singh points out - there are several raag systems in Indian classical music. The raag structure of SGGS is one. The raagmala presents another. If raagmala were needed to complete the study of raags, then why not also add additional chapters to Guru Granth Sahib to complete the picture?
 
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