The Despicable Ego

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Mar 27, 2007
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I declare I am a developing atheist.
I am a receding egoist.
I am a rebel at heart.


For the past 5 years of my life I have constantly analyzed myself and have realized the roots of my problems to be rooted within myself. Through my carefull, careless poring over my self, I have often struck out against the adamanitum wall of religion. I have often found great hypocrisy in other religions and with great regret (not really), I have found a great philosophical and physical problem in Sikhism (Yes, I am a sikh child, teenager to specific for all you looking into my teenage angst).
To the point now: in my sporadic attendences at the local Gurudwaras and several Gurmukhi Camps, I have heard from the Bhai Sahab many lectures (too dramatic?) on Homein (Ego). I realized that Sikhism places great emphasis on the evils of Ego. I also realized that I was greatly egotisitc.

Over the years I have worked hard within to fight off the evil and vile ego (no, I am not implying sarcasm). I have become far humbler now than I was that first day at the camp when it dawned upon me that ego was my problem, that I was fighting everday a losing war against with the other me.
Anways, the problem, one I pose to you all is: Ego implies a aserting a distinction between you and me. Ego is identity. Ego is in its barest the only idea which make one, one. Lets forget all condescion and the usual.

The key facet ( if only from a physical standpoint) of Sikhism, the hair, the turban, etc. clearly identify us Sikhs from all people (at least the Majority). How is that since the Gurus preached us to reduce Ego, they later make us distinct. Not blaming them, why is that where ever I go in Sikh society, the import of our Sikh Identity (you know what I speak of) is so highly touted, romanticised, and brainwashed into us. Aren't we, by the idea of Ego, all the master egotists if we flaunt our turbans, kesh, etc. as a symbol of us. Or is this modern flaunting just our displacement against a world which has moved away from the naturalist theologies?




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drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
Dear Freind ( your name bit difficult!!)

welcome here

I just raed your post I must say all your observationsare fantastic and I almost agree with most of them

Just the few things that instantly came to my mind.=.=.=

one cant fight ego although we can channel it .=

Ego diguises to take shap=es and the very means to fight it become egoistic itself

It can only disolve when the universal force /God want it to happen till this happen it enjoy it !!or may be tame it for good

I dont agree with this explanation ( usually given by sikhs)that physical symbols are there ONLY to make us stand out for others Instead may be for ownself as a reminder of something( So Debatable.=.=.=.=)


It too late in night so I think thi it for now .=.=may be more tmr.=



Any way I just felt like recommending you a very nice book to read .

THE NEW EARTH - BY ECKHART TOLLE I think you will surely like it



Jatinder Singh
 
Mar 27, 2007
25
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Well I really thought that this matter was important. Judging from the replies, I guess I am mistaken and a misled dolt.

Perhaps, I will look up that book that DR. K suggested.
 

S|kH

SPNer
Jul 11, 2004
380
29
36
We Are PENN STATE!!
Well I really thought that this matter was important. Judging from the replies, I guess I am mistaken and a misled dolt.

Perhaps, I will look up that book that DR. K suggested.

Hey hey, don't get that demoralized.

Now, you bring up a very valid question, and an interesting one.

The sole difference here is, we are not "supposed" to flaunt based on turban, tied or untied beard, gelled beard, the bigger the pugh, the "more sikh" you are.

But, in reality, its there. So is the caste system. So is gender discrimination. So is a bunch of other issues in our society.

Can you be ego-less and still identify yourself as one? Yes, because your supposed to be "in touch with God" and not altering your body, hence where kesh comes in. It's all a mix and match.


Now, although I'm an atheist, I keep my kesh and the whole 9 yards because they interest me.
I also, with some sikh friends, joke around about how in our community, the more "hardcore" you are, the more your dhari isnt tied, the more your pugh is circular. We joke because its the exact opposite of anything any western civilization has ever marketed or produced, and we love it.

Do we suffer from ego? Oh, of course. See us on the basketball court one day, and its absolutely nuts.

The thing though is, keeping kesh, and doing all that is relatively easier than controlling ones ego to a point where they can identify themselves as one, yet be ego-less. Hence, why you see alot of keshdhari sikhs with big egos.

Your attempting to compare a step 1 to a step 9. When most people die off at step 3.

You see a couple here and there, but thats why there has only been a couple gurus here and there.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,215
Respected JtotheAtothe

More than most people you will meet in a life-time, because you have a well-developed ego. Let's not say it is a "despicable" ego, but rather a problematic ego.

Ego, and eventually a concept of self as an individual, a separate person with an independent sense of identity, does not become apparent until late in infancy (around 8 or 10 months) when we notice that all the objects and people around us don't vanish permanently, but just disappear for a time, when they go away. Our toys, pets, parents continue to exist even when we cannot see them right there in front of our eyes. Psychologists call this "object permanence" and it is one of the earliest concepts to develop in a child, and it shows that a baby is developing a memory. Young children don't start to cry when they are separated from their mothers until they realize that they are SEPARATE, SEPARATED. This is the beginning of I-Thou in its most basic form. Separation causes anxiety.

A sense of yourself as a separate self however is essential to further mental develoment. Children learn to solve problems only when they can separate or analyze the parts of a problem and look for connections. They must also be able to see themselves as distinct from all the objective elements in a problem. They cannot understand what it means to share until they can make the distinction between what is mine and what is yours. They cannot be kind or generous until they understand that if I am sad when you hit me or take my toys, then you must also be said when I do a bad thing to you. This is the begining of Ego (I am not You or It), the beginning of intelligence, the beginning of duality. Without Ego intellectual development cannot take place.

In a similar way, we cannot get to God until the moment when we discover that we are separate and separated from God, and we feel at some level the anxiety of this separation. Our ego separates us. This is the I-Thou duality in adulthood, and this form of duality becomes a problem for people who are convinced that there is a God and wish to engage God in a personal way. Sidh Gosht visits this theme many times. Here again Ego is a pre-requisite.

A small child learns kindness by bridging the gap between you and me through empathy, seeing and feeling another's point of view. A gap cannot be closed unless there is a gap in the first place. We cannot close the distance, our separation from God, until we realize that we are separated from God. We meditate because we realize that duality is getting in the way of having a spiritual exchange with God.

I am reminded of the story of the 4 mystics who were visited by God. Three of them in turn talked about the depth of their devotion and God did not seem to hear or care. The 4th man said nothing but just opened his arms. And God came over to him and embraced him.

Respectfully
 
Mar 27, 2007
25
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This is a good point you make. We are psychological creatures. You are obviously highly knowledgeble yet side-step the issue at hand.


Your attempting to compare a step 1 to a step 9. When most people die off at step 3.

hahaha, man that is so deep in the most comic way. Very interesting metaphor.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,215
JtotheAtothe

Ego implies a aserting a distinction between you and me. Ego is identity. Ego is in its barest the only idea which make one, one.

You are positively on target. Then the next step is to recognize whether you want to go beyond Ego. There is no predicting if and when that happens. Then you seek to end that feeling of separation. Not everyone feels this need. Those who do often find themselves meditating.

Respectfully
 
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Feb 15, 2006
512
18
Over the years I have worked hard within to fight off the evil and vile ego (no, I am not implying sarcasm). I have become far humbler now than I was that first day at the camp when it dawned upon me that ego was my problem, that I was fighting everday a losing war against with the other me.
The ego is a tool for interacting in the real world. When you push the ego too hard, it fights back as something called "a shadow." In psychology, the shadow nature is something you're not even conscious of. But recklessly trying to push unconscious your panj vikaars, the shadow grows more powerful. If you drive yourself too hard before you are ready, you create more problems. Actually, harshness towards the ego doesn't make someone loving and good...it can break their mind and heart and create cruelty. A lot of the problems you see today in world religions are because of this disconnection in the heart and mind caused by wrong approach in spiritual discipline.​
Veerji, you won't become more loving, more filled with light if you're always beating yourself up as vile and unworthy. At the same time, you are correct, you want to master your panj vikaars. To become a master of something is not to become a tyrant of anything. Simply move in your life with greater understanding of human nature. That's the path to mastery.​
Take every one of the 5 evils, and understand that when purified by spiritual practices, those are your 5 strengths. So the goal is really more of transformation. Anger, for example, has the power to destroy the innocent. But transformed, it has the power to give strength and determination to the oppressed to no longer tolerate victimization. Simply to eliminate anger, you will lose a fundamental part of your own will. The more anger is purified, the less you are vulnerable to instinctive reacting to provocation, the less you corrupt your spiritual practice. If you beat up your own ego, your own imperfect humanity, how in the world will you treat other people? Train the mind as you would train an unruly child.​
Ego implies a aserting a distinction between you and me. Ego is identity. Ego is in its barest the only idea which make one, one. Lets forget all condescion and the usual.



The key facet ( if only from a physical standpoint) of Sikhism, the hair, the turban, etc. clearly identify us Sikhs from all people (at least the Majority). How is that since the Gurus preached us to reduce Ego, they later make us distinct. Not blaming them, why is that where ever I go in Sikh society, the import of our Sikh Identity (you know what I speak of) is so highly touted, romanticised, and brainwashed into us. Aren't we, by the idea of Ego, all the master egotists if we flaunt our turbans, kesh, etc. as a symbol of us.



1. As they say, the fruit falls from the tree when ripe. If you aren't prepared, losing ego boundaries is something very destabilizing. You will only become psychotic. About 99% of the human population isn't ready for this kind of experience. Don't force it. Thats why they say spiritual discipline is like walking the razor's edge, because it's so easy to destroy yourself.


Why would Guruji make us distinct if the goal is to merge?​

Okay, back to particles again. Every particle of your being already contains within it the properties of a wave, something which is indistinct, interconnected, united with all that is. Yet, because of the dual nature, it is also a particle manifesting it's distinction. Just look at the world around you. What do you see? You see a multiplicity of forms. You see ants, and birds of every color. You see all kinds of trees, all kinds of clouds, etc. The world is a dance of individuality. Individuality isn't bad. In fact, it's precious. But, despite all these seeming distinctions, underlying the core nature of every being is the same energy, the same life force, the same spiritual light.​
Spiritual practice doesn't mean you blur distinctions as though merging with absolute was some kind of rejection of what is. It just means you are able to see beyond appearances. Merging with the absolute has a very interesting equation. The Buddhists talk about parinirvana as merging into this field of being, shunyata, or emptiness. But shunyata as a concept isn't only emptiness. It's the unification of light and emptiness, so it's 2 mathematical equivalents...everythingness and nothingness. It is the multiplicity of diverse life, and at the same time creative potential. Like nirgun and sargun natures. One is manifest and the other is unmanifest. Anyway, the point, although there is a merging, implying loss of distinctions, there's also everythingness as well that you take into your heart with piare. So you become one not with dissolution but with life-force itself.​
There is so much misunderstanding about the panj kakkars. they are not a ritual, they are not a symbol we cling to superstitiously, they are not a focus of ego, they are not a burden.​
When we take amrit, the panj kakkars become a part of who we are, our new identity. We take on the form of Guruji's saroop. How can you be egotistical, when you are taking pride in the appearance of the Guru's own roop? Does Guru's bana belong to your ego? Is it the same as plucking your hairs, shaving your dhaari? Wearing make-up? Is it some kind of egotistical based appearance like that? Or does every Singh and Singhni take on this same roop that belongs to Guru?​
People are still corrupt, egotistical, vain or whatever. But the Guru's roop is the Guru's roop, that's why we love it so much. Little children like to see the great King in themselves. And in this case, people are a lot like little children. But Guruji has made us his little children. And we have opportunity to grow up (mature spiritually) and become great like He is, because His very presence is with us. We are trying to become the Divine dignity of the King, not the egotism of the "I." So please be patient with the Singhs and Singhnis, we are only people just like you are. Everyone is at their own stage of development.​
If you were to compare any other fashion with Khalsa bana, I hardly think anyone will be thought as the supreme egotist who has the same style of dress as everyone else. I think what is happening, there are so few real Gursikhi Gurudwaras. That it seems if you find someone in bana he is sticking out like trying to be holier than everyone else. But if you visit Gurudwaras with a lot of chadi kala Singhs and Singhnis, that distinction fades away. We are all brothers and sisters. The ego is submerged in the Guru's roop. Especially you put keski on the head of a Singhni, she is not really being egotistical about her appearance. It's more of a discipline to limit your appearance in this way. And when you do stand out in a crowd, definitely you are standing against all the fashions that flatter the ego.​
just compare:​
tej-pp-b.jpg
jat%202004%20re.JPG
sikh-frau-frankreich.jpg
londonmela_hardkaur2.jpg
 
Mar 27, 2007
25
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Wow, so smart. I sure would like to meet you someday.

I never thought of the physics stuff this way. The superstring theory can explain God. But then again, is god the string, or the string the god.

Naturally i can raise a question that you have prbly hear a billion times, a cliched question i am sure: Is our God, as sikhs, different from other religion's gods; ours concerned more for the appearence of his constituents?

Its a trap isnt it. Either way you go, you are concerned.
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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JtotheAtothe ji

Yes there is a lot of talk to provoke thought in this thread.

Parma ji

I don't understand the meaning of "l;kjdvlkjf". Probably the only one who doesn't. Would you clear that up for me?

Respectfully
 
Apr 12, 2007
351
262
Yeah the Sikh identity was given, but it isn’t to distance ourselves from the world. The Sikh teaching is to be pure. That is pure of the mind body and soul. Its that simple, nothing else. My brothers and sisters if you are pure of the mind body and soul, then you are not a Sikh then you are divinity. God holds you close. That’s why guru gobind ji said where there is five of my guriskh there you will find me. Only god can judge you. Does not mean you have your own laws but you do make your own decisions try to make your decisions with your mind and not with your heart. Keep clear with the teachings of the gurbarni. This is the only religion made for all mankind not to be distanced. To be pure brings you close to all humanity. All living things need purity to live. Like water you can drink it, yet you cannot describe it sweet or sour indescribable. Beyond the purity of water is air, you cannot smell it, its transparent, not visible unless mixed indescribable. No solid description. Beyond that purity would be your soul you can feel it yet it is invisible untouchable indescribable. Beyond all that is god exists in all purities yet is beyond that indescribable. That’s why the Sikh is defined as a purity reaches beyond colour creed or race. All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. Most of all god. Not distanced. The hindu is the one who calls himself the hindu. The muslim is the one who calls himsilf the muslim. The sikh is the one who says, no my brother and sisters we are all one there is only one god. Learn to appreciate god properly. Many sikhs are trying to force this one eye view that they know what is right because they read the gurbarni and know gurmukhi. I could also read from the same holy book and to make my conclusion seem more valid write out quotes. It would not mean what i was preaching would be right. View the message, words can be choped and changed to maintain any level of argument. A man writes I am gay. Would you take the view he is homosexual or he is happy. To me it would mean happy! (I m not gay OK. Just getting a point across) Take in the message dont frown upon right or wrong. How do you know you are right? You are not god! Use reasoning, what is good for me and you must be good for god. What hurts you and me must also hurt god. As god is apart of us all. Remember that. Value equal. God does not just exsist in appearance. Exsistance is pure.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
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Yeah the Sikh identity was given, but it isn’t to distance ourselves from the world.
The world is maya. The Sikh is totally set apart in every way.
That’s why the Sikh is defined as a purity reaches beyond colour creed or race. All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. Most of all god. Not distanced. The hindu is the one who calls himself the hindu. The muslim is the one who calls himsilf the muslim. The sikh is the one who says, no my brother and sisters we are all one there is only one god. Learn to appreciate god properly.
color, caste are no bar to becoming a Sikh. But someone who professes another creed cannot become a Sikh according to Rehit Maryada. For one thing it's irrational. If you have contradicting beliefs and loyalties, how can you become the Guru's Sikh? No one can appreciate God properly, because God is beyond the comprehension of human beings. That's why we need a Guru. To have a Guru means we try to follow what the Guru teaches as a disciplined spiritual practice. Guru says get up for amrit vela and chant Naam. Guru says take isnaan when you get up. The practices and discipline are clear. How can anyone say Guru didn't say what we can go look up and see that He said? Or are you writing your own Gurbani? That broad definition is like saying a child molester is a Sikh because all are one in one religion. Once you do some wrong thing like that...you are NOT a Sikh.
The Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

[SIZE=-1]v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh [/SIZE]


You seem to forget that Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only one manifestation of Guru. The entire Khalsa Panth is also Guru. The Panj Piare are also Guru. There is authority of Guru in the Takhts. So if Sikhism as a Panth has defined Sikh identity, and you contradict it, you are not right. To see human beings as brothers and sisters because Akal Purakh is in every living being is not the same as saying there is no such thing as Sikh identity. Sikh identity is very distinct. Guru gave us this identity.
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]a. The Guru Panth (Panth's status of Guruhood) means the whole body of committed baptised (Amritdhari) Sikhs. This body was fostered by all the ten Gurus and the tenth Guru gave it its final shape and invested it with Guruhood.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
Now if the recognized authorities of the Khalsa Panth, the Panj Piare, the Takhts, the Rehi Maryada, the Jathedars have all accepted a definition of Sikh identity based on Gurbani, based on vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, based on Rehitnamay, based on decisions of Panj Piare and hukamnama, based on what the Panth collectively decides. What validity is a private opinion not supported by any quotation to even prove it's Panthic source? Even my opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with Panthic sources of authority. Sikhism as a religion has a very clear identity. No one can authoritatively say, "All men are Sikhs." You can say it, but it won't be true. It won't be recognized or accepted by the Panth. Because such a broad definition discredits Sikh identity, and it contradicts the Rehit Maryada. Sikhism is not any religious belief in the world, or any person who appropriates the name of Sikh.
Many sikhs are trying to force this one eye view that they know what is right because they read the gurbarni and know gurmukhi. I could also read from the same holy book and to make my conclusion seem more valid write out quotes. It would not mean what i was preaching would be right. View the message, words can be choped and changed to maintain any level of argument.
You don't have any quotes because you are saying only your opinion. Anyone can investigate the sources of this information. I can say you are wrong, you can say I am wrong. But the truth is, anyone can investigate for himself what the Panthic definition of a Sikh is.

By the way, doesn't it seem odd that a Sikh/disciple of Guru would not read Gurbani which is Guru's own words and just accept a conclusion from his own mind as what Guru is saying without comparing it to accepted Panthic opinion?

~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji
 
Mar 27, 2007
25
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Yea, your are all right. But let me ask you, which is more important : achieving moral order(purity and all that) or becoming one with God (in whatever phrase you want to put that)?

Secondly, like i put it first, how do you explain that christians have their god (with his own unique traits if you think we pray to the same god), the jews have their own god, muslims have their own god, and hindus have multiple gods?

Someone did say that
All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all.
which is quite an arrogant view.

and

someone said
So if Sikhism as a Panth has defined Sikh identity, and you contradict it, you are not right. . . .By the way, doesn't it seem odd that a Sikh/disciple of Guru would not read Gurbani which is Guru's own words and just accept a conclusion from his own mind as what Guru is saying without comparing it to accepted Panthic opinion?

Which is quite interesting, as was said i might not be right and you might not be right. Who is to say the Panth(if that is what Panthic come from, or is it pantheism) is right? Didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji break away from a "Panth" of Hindus when dispersing his message. Yes he combined a bunch of ideas, but he in essence did contradict by differing. You cannot say that he was special as you clearly said:

The entire Khalsa Panth is also Guru.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
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which is more important : achieving moral order(purity and all that) or becoming one with God (in whatever phrase you want to put that)?

Achieving moral purity inner and outer is required to come into the presence, the darshan of the God. Without purifying all the bad qualities we have within us, all the darkness that obscures the mind and consciousness and causes us to cling to fake things, reactions and troubles will keep us in bondage. We won't see the Pure Light until we're Pure like that Light. Just because someone is following a spiritual path doesn't mean their perfect now, or holier than anyone else. It's just a practice, and the spiritual practices help to lift the atma, purify the conciousness and help you reach a level where jeevan mukti is possible. If someone is immoral, or amoral, those predispositions and attitudes are like a door through which the mind permits suffering situations to come into being. In other words, the person actually gives permission to himself to do something which causes suffering to another. Like it is said there are 5 gates that bring hell to the world, anger, lust, worldly attachment, greed, and egotism. Unless we are able to purify and transform these inclinations, we fall into trap of darkness and suffering again and again. Also when the atma has suffered traumas, these painful memories also obscure the light within. So there are skandas and kleshas and all kinds of scars on the soul from ages of suffering. The true nature of the soul is light. And we have to do the work of washing all this darkness away so the light within us will shine and we have darshan of Waheguru.

mwieAw mohu gubwru hY gur ibnu igAwnu n hoeI ] (559-1, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
maa-i-aa moh gubaar hai gur bin gi-aan na ho-ee.
Emotional attachment to Maya is darkness; without the Guru, there is no wisdom.

sbid lgy iqn buiJAw dUjY prj ivgoeI ]1] (559-2, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
sabad lagay tin bujhi-aa doojai paraj vigo-ee. ||1||
Those who are attached to the Word of the Shabad understand; duality has ruined the people. ||1||

mn myry gurmiq krxI swru ] (559-2, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
man mayray gurmat karnee saar.
O my mind, under Guru's Instruction, do good deeds.

ibnu nwvY sB ivCuVI gur kY sbid imlwey ]2] (559-4, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
bin naavai sabh vichhurhee gur kai sabad milaa-ay. ||2||
Without the Name, all are separated from the Lord; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, one meets the Lord. ||2||
So it is not possible to just "merge with Divine" and not do the inner work of transformation by purifying the pains and suffering qualities. And no one really can even do it. You have to have Guru to help clean all these deep things we aren't even conscious of and guide us to the God. Guru will give you the Naam. Chanting on this Naam is the path home.

eyqu rwih piq pvVIAw cVIAY hoie iekIs ] (7-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
ayt raahi pat pavrhee-aa charhee-ai ho-ay ikees.
Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.

suix glw Awkws kI kItw AweI rIs ] (7-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
sun galaa aakaas kee keetaa aa-ee rees.
Hearing of the etheric realms, even worms long to come back home.
All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. which is quite an arrogant view.
Well, Im not even sure of the context of this quote. But not all men are Sikhs. And not all Sikhs are Gursikhs. But basically, it doesn't require anything special or any great goodness on our part. Even terrible sinner, if he sincerely cries out to Guru will receive Guruji's kirpa and blessings and be well on his path to house of Guru. So really the power and the blessing of liberation from the ocean of suffering is all Guru's grace. No one is a special person, only some are better able to reflect the Guru's darshan. But everything belongs to Guru. Every grace is gift from Guru.
Secondly, like i put it first, how do you explain that christians have their god (with his own unique traits if you think we pray to the same god), the jews have their own god, muslims have their own god, and hindus have multiple gods?
Don't forget the Buddhists who don't even believe in God. What is to explain? There have been different ages, and different spiritual paths for the people. All religions ultimately come from the One Lord Waheguru, but not all spiritual paths have the same destiny. Just read what Gurbani says about the gods and compare to the One Lord Waheguru.
khu kbIr Kojau Asmwn ] (330-1, gauVI, Bgq kbIr jI)
kaho kabeer khoja-o asmaan.
Says Kabeer, I have searched the skies,

rwm smwn n dyKau Awn ]2]34] (330-1, gauVI, Bgq kbIr jI)
raam samaan na daykh-a-u aan. ||2||34||
and have not seen another, equal to the Lord. ||2||34||
guru eIsru guru gorKu brmw guru pwrbqI mweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

jy hau jwxw AwKw nwhI khxw kQnu n jweI ] (2-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

bRhmY byd bwxI prgwsI mwieAw moh pswrw ] (559-14, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
barahmai bayd banee pargaasee maa-i-aa moh pasaaraa.
Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread.

mhwdyau igAwnI vrqY Gir AwpxY qwmsu bhuqu AhMkwrw ]2] (559-15, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
mahaaday-o gi-aanee vartai ghar aapnai taamas bahut ahaNkaaraa. ||2||
The wise one, Shiva, remains absorbed in himself, but he is engrossed in dark passions and excessive egotism. ||2||

iksnu sdw AvqwrI rUDw ikqu lig qrY sMswrw ] (559-15, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
kisan sadaa avtaaree rooDhaa kit lag tarai sansaaraa.
Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?

gurmuiK igAwin rqy jug AMqir cUkY moh gubwrw ]3] (559-16, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
gurmukh gi-aan ratay jug antar chookai moh gubaaraa. ||3||
The Gurmukhs are imbued with spiritual wisdom in this age; they are rid of the darkness of emotional attachment. ||3||

sqgur syvw qy insqwrw gurmuiK qrY sMswrw ] (559-16, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
satgur sayvaa tay nistaaraa gurmukh tarai sansaaraa.
Serving the True Guru, one is emancipated; the Gurmukh crosses over the world-ocean.
The difference is Everything has its existence in the Waheguru, even gods. But only Waheguru is beyond all these things. There are countless realms, there are hell realms and places like this world, there are different heaven realms and places of light. The gods give a blessing to their devotees. But only Guruji can take you beyond even the realm of the gods. That is why Sikhi is a very special path. It is like the end path, the one given by God when all the other paths are failing in the evil era, all the legs on which religion stands have collapsed except one. And that leg is chanting the Lord's praises.

hom jg qIrQ kIey ibic haumY bDy ibkwr ] (214-8, gOVI mwlvw, mÚ 5)
hom jag tirath kee-ay bich ha-umai baDhay bikaar.
You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

nrku surgu duie BuMcnw hoie bhuir bhuir Avqwr ]2] (214-8, gOVI mwlvw, mÚ 5)
narak surag du-ay bhunchanaa ho-ay bahur bahur avtaar. ||2||
You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

isv purI bRhm ieMdR purI inhclu ko Qwau nwih ] (214-9, gOVI mwlvw, mÚ 5)
siv puree barahm indar puree nihchal ko thaa-o naahi.
The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

ibnu hir syvw suKu nhI ho swkq Awvih jwih ]3] (214-9, gOVI mwlvw, mÚ 5)
bin har sayvaa sukh nahee ho saakat aavahi jaahi. ||3||
Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||
Gurbani says that even these gods will have their end and have fallen into the corruption of time. They can only take you as far as they can go. But Guru can take you to Waheguru, past all the heaven realms into beyondness and the indescribable.
kvnu AsQwnu jo kbhu n trY ] (237-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)
kavan asthaan jo kabahu na tarai.
What is that place which never perishes?

kvnu sbdu ijqu durmiq hrY ]1] rhwau ] (237-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)
kavan sabad jit durmat harai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
What is that Word by which the dirt of the mind is removed? ||1||Pause||

ieMdR purI mih srpr mrxw ] (237-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
indar puree meh sarpar marnaa.
In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.

bRhm purI inhclu nhI rhxw ] (237-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
barahm puree nihchal nahee rahnaa.
The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.

isv purI kw hoiegw kwlw ] (237-9, gauVI, mÚ 5)
siv puree kaa ho-igaa kaalaa.
The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.

qRY gux mwieAw ibnis ibqwlw ]2] (237-9, gauVI, mÚ 5)
tarai gun maa-i-aa binas bitaalaa. ||2||
The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||


ibiKAw Ajhu suriq suK Awsw ] (330-6, gauVI guAwryrI, Bgq kbIr jI)
bikhi-aa ajahu surat sukh aasaa.
People are involved in corruption, but still, they hope for pleasure.

kYsy hoeI hY rwjw rwm invwsw ]1] rhwau ] (330-7, gauVI guAwryrI, Bgq kbIr jI)
kaisay ho-ee hai raajaa raam nivaasaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
How will they find their home in the Sovereign Lord King? ||1||Pause||

iesu suK qy isv bRhm frwnw ] (330-7, gauVI guAwryrI, Bgq kbIr jI)
is sukh tay siv barahm daraanaa.
Even Shiva and Brahma are afraid of this pleasure,

gwvin@ quDno eIsru bRhmw dyvI sohin qyry sdw svwry ] (347-7, Awsw, mÚ 1)
gaavniH tuDhno eesar barahmaa dayvee sohan tayray sadaa savaaray.
Shiva and Brahma and the Goddess Parvaati, so beautiful and ever adorned by You, sing to You.

gwvin@ quDno ieMdR ieMdRwsix bYTy dyviqAw dir nwly ] (347-7, Awsw, mÚ 1)
gaavniH tuDhno indar indaraasan baithay dayviti-aa dar naalay.
The Indras, seated upon their celestial thrones, with the deities at Your Gate, sing to You.

gwvin@ quDno isD smwDI AMdir gwvin@ quDno swD bIcwry ] (347-8, Awsw, mÚ 1)
gaavniH tuDhno siDh samaaDhee andar gaavniH tuDhno saaDh beechaaray.
The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing to You, and the Holy Saints, in their contemplative meditation, sing to You.



srpnI qy aUpir nhI blIAw ] (480-16, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
sarpanee tay oopar nahee balee-aa.
No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya,

ijin bRhmw ibsnu mhwdyau ClIAw ]1] (480-17, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
jin barahmaa bisan mahaaday-o chhalee-aa. ||1||
who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1||

mwru mwru sRpnI inrml jil pYTI ] (480-17, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
maar maar sarpanee nirmal jal paithee.
Having bitten and struck them down, she now sits in the immaculate waters.

ijin iqRBvxu fsIAly gur pRswid fITI ]1] rhwau ] (480-17, Awsw, Bgq kbIr jI)
jin taribhavan dasee-alay gur parsaad deethee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
By Guru's Grace, I have seen her, who has bitten the three worlds. ||1||Pause||


bRhm lok Aru rudR lok AweI ieMdR lok qy Dwie ] (500-5, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
barahm lok ar rudr lok aa-ee indar lok tay Dhaa-ay.
Overwhelming the realm of Brahma, the realm of Shiva and the realm of Indra, Maya has come running here.

swDsMgiq kau joih n swkY mil mil DovY pwie ]1] (500-5, gUjrI, mÚ 5)
saaDhsangat ka-o johi na saakai mal mal Dhovai paa-ay. ||1||
But she cannot touch the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; she washes and massages their feet. ||1||



AjON n pq´wie ingm Bey swKI ]3] (710-17, jYqsrI, Bgq rivdws jI)
ajouN na pat-yaa-ay nigam bha-ay saakhee. ||3||
I do not have faith, even though the Vedas bear witness to the Lord. ||3||

goqm nwir aumwpiq sÍwmI ] sIsu Drin shs Bg gWmI ]4] (710-17, jYqsrI, Bgq rivdws jI)
gotam naar umaapat savaamee. sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee. ||4||
Shiva cut off Brahma's head, and Gautam's wife and the Lord Indra mated; Brahma's head got stuck to Shiva's hand, and Indra came to bear the marks of a thousand female organs. ||4||

ien dUqn Klu bDu kir mwirE ] (710-18, jYqsrI, Bgq rivdws jI)
in dootan khal baDh kar maari-o.
These demons have fooled, bound and destroyed me.

bfo inlwju AjhU nhI hwirE ]5] (710-18, jYqsrI, Bgq rivdws jI)
bado nilaaj ajhoo nahee haari-o. ||5||
I am very shameless - even now, I am not tired of them. ||5||
All these gods have an end. Only Waheguru is without end. Even the gods and heavenly beings have fallen into corruption. And all of them sing the praises of the Waheguru.

There is an imperishable Lord and an imperishable true place where the bodies duality is lost and merging union with the unstruck sound is obtained. In physics we learn that at higher vibrations Light is Sound. So the Shabad-Jyote as a concept is actually a mathematical reality. These higher dimensional realities are something a human being can actually ascend to. And that is what the Gurbani is saying, the devotee's who reach this state are a part of infinite reality and cannot change, fade or pass away. The gods last a long time, they are much higher dimensional beings than we are. But higher still is Waheguru, and He alone can merge the Gursikh into that infinity by the grace of Satguruji who is His very own sargun saroop, Shabad-Jyote. Guru is God's very Light on this earth.

pwrbRhm kw AMqu n pwru ] (237-16, gauVI, mÚ 5)
paarbarahm kaa ant na paar.
There is no end or limitation to the Supreme Lord God.

kauxu krY qw kw bIcwru ] (237-16, gauVI, mÚ 5)
ka-un karai taa kaa beechaar.
Who can embrace His contemplation?

Which is quite interesting, as was said i might not be right and you might not be right. Who is to say the Panth(if that is what Panthic come from, or is it pantheism) is right?
I believe Panth is a Marathi term from Pantha: which means, the "path" or the "road" "way of living of the community" or Panthi: "A disciple or follower of any leader in religion" and also means "Share of a common concern." So Panth refers to the entire Sikh sangat. The Khalsa Panth specifically refers to the entire body of amritdhari Sikhs. It has nothing to do with Pantheism which comes from the Greek language "Pan" meaning all things, and "Theos" meaning God, or literal translation, God is in all things.

The execution of Guru Arjan in 1606 led to Guru Hargobind, Nanak VI, introducing the doctrine of mini and piri (worldly and spiritual leadership) combined in the person of the Guru. This doctrine meant the fusion of bhakti (religious devotion) and sakti (power). Ratan Singh Bhangu, the author of Prachin Panth Prakash, writing in the middle of the nineteenth century, expounds it thus: "The Panth contains in itself the power of the Guru; the panth comprises devoted and disciplined worshippers of God."
A further dimension to the concept of Panth was brought about by Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). He introduced the initiation by the double-edged sword and, to repeat a line from an old verse, transformed the sangat into Khalsa.

The Panth was now identified with the Guru himself. "The Khalsa is my special image," he said, "I abide in the Khalsa. Khalsa is my life and soul." The Panth, now called Khalsa Panth, was the Guru Panth. Guru Gobind Singh at his death declared the Granth Sahib as Guru everlasing for the Sikhs. The line of living Gurus came to an end and the Guru Panth became its own leader under the guidance of the Guru Granth Sahib. The term Panth became more popular possibly for its assonance with Granth.

Yet the Panth, according to Sikh belief, is a permanent reality, higher than any of its functional agencies which must justify their validity by serving the interest of the Panth as a whole or be replaced by the Guru Khalsa Panth assembling as Sarbatt Khalsa, the supreme repository of ultimate powers of miri and piri, i.e. secular and religious authority.

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-organisations/panth.html

Didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji break away from a "Panth" of Hindus when dispersing his message. Yes he combined a bunch of ideas, but he in essence did contradict by differing. You cannot say that he was special as you clearly said:
Quote:
The entire Khalsa Panth is also Guru.

Are you saying Guruji broke away from Hindu Panth to form some new sect, combined a bunch of ideas and contradictions and was not special in any way?

Because this understanding is clearly incorrect. Guruji in every Shabad-Jyote manifestation of the 10 human forms and finally residing in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj has given a new spiritual path to the world by Waheguru for this dark age. It isn't combining a bunch of ideas. It's a complete and uniquely new religion. Guru is special because Guru is the one who understands and is merged in the nirgun and sargun aspects of Waheguru. Only He Himself knows Himself. Guru is the gift of deliverance for mankind for this age.

AMqu n pwvq dyv sbY muin ieMdR mhw isv jog krI ] (1409-1, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
ant na paavat dayv sabai mun indar mahaa siv jog karee.
All the gods, silent sages, Indra, Shiva and Yogis have not found the Lord's limits

Puin byd ibrMic ibcwir rihE hir jwpu n Cwif´au eyk GrI ] (1409-1, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
fun bayd biranch bichaar rahi-o har jaap na chhaadi-ya-o ayk gharee.
- not even Brahma who contemplates the Vedas. I shall not give up meditating on the Lord, even for an instant.

mQurw jn ko pRBu dIn dXwlu hY sMgiq isRis† inhwlu krI ] (1409-2, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
mathuraa jan ko parabh deen da-yaal hai sangat sarisat nihaal karee.
The God of Mat'huraa is Merciful to the meek; He blesses and uplifts the Sangats throughout the Universe.

rwmdwis gurU jg qwrn kau gur joiq Arjun mwih DrI ]4] (1409-3, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
raamdaas guroo jag taaran ka-o gur jot arjun maahi Dharee. ||4||
Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||

jg Aauru n Xwih mhw qm mY Avqwru aujwgru Awin kIAau ] (1409-3, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
jag a-or na yaahi mahaa tam mai avtaar ujaagar aan kee-a-o.
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.

iqn ky duK koitk dUir gey mQurw ijn@ AMimRq nwmu pIAau ] (1409-4, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
tin kay dukh kotik door ga-ay mathuraa jinH amrit naam pee-a-o.
Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.

ieh pDiq qy mq cUkih ry mn Bydu ibBydu n jwn bIAau ] (1409-5, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
ih paDhat tay mat chookeh ray man bhayd bibhayd na jaan bee-a-o.
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

prqiC irdY gur Arjun kY hir pUrn bRhim invwsu lIAau ]5] (1409-6, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
partachh ridai gur arjun kai har pooran barahm nivaas lee-a-o. ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

jb lau nhI Bwg illwr audY qb lau BRmqy iPrqy bhu DwXau ] (1409-6, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
jab la-o nahee bhaag lilaar udai tab la-o bharamtay firtay baho Dhaa-ya-o.
As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.

kil Gor smudR mY bUfq Qy kbhU imit hY nhI ry pCuqwXau ] (1409-7, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
kal ghor samudar mai boodat thay kabhoo mit hai nahee ray pachhotaa-ya-o.
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

qqu ibcwru XhY mQurw jg qwrn kau Avqwru bnwXau ] (1409-8, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
tat bichaar yahai mathuraa jag taaran ka-o avtaar banaa-ya-o.
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.

jp´au ijn@ Arjun dyv gurU iPir sMkt join grB n AwXau ]6] (1409-8, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
jap-ya-o jinH arjun dayv guroo fir sankat jon garabh na aa-ya-o. ||6||
Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

kil smudR Bey rUp pRgit hir nwm auDwrnu ] (1409-9, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
kal samudar bha-ay roop pargat har naam uDhaaran.
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.

bsih sMq ijsu irdY duK dwirdR invwrnu ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
baseh sant jis ridai dukh daridar nivaaran.
Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides.

inrml ByK Apwr qwsu ibnu Avru n koeI ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
nirmal bhaykh apaar taas bin avar na ko-ee.
He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.

mn bc ijin jwixAau BXau iqh smsir soeI ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
man bach jin jaani-a-o bha-ya-o tih samsar so-ee.
Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.

Drin ggn nv KMf mih joiq sÍrUpI rihE Bir ] (1409-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
Dharan gagan nav khand meh jot savroopee rahi-o bhar.
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

Bin mQurw kCu Bydu nhI guru Arjunu prqK´ hir ]7]19] (1409-12, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
bhan mathuraa kachh bhayd nahee gur arjun partakh-y har. ||7||19||
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||



~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji
 
Apr 12, 2007
351
262
Harjas your just an argumentative person. So Lets say your right. I agree with all you say. I become a hardline dude like you. "O Mighty 1" lol. Wont bring me closer to god. You dont understand do you. Being pure brings you closer to god as god is pure. (All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. which is quite an arrogant view.) Its true view though! You have defined the faith to yourself. OK, if I quote from the gurbarni, which I can do I can definatly find it translated in english on the internet. Will it make my arguments seem more valid to you! You can use words, and yet have no meaning. I have learnt my way through the gurbarni and people preaching it right. Not like a hard stone as harjas tries to throw onto me. No one is willing to carry a burden its how you make the religion feel. Everyone wants to be liberated. The sikh religion was made so men could exsist in normal life and still believe in god. Not to change and follow codes. Like I said before the only perfect thing is god makes all else in-perfect. Peace of mind. With all your rights and wrongs I would always be questioning when am I right and when am I wrong, and when would I find time to exhault my thought to god. I would never able to attain peace. You follow your view and I'll follow mine. Your path is hard like the stone. mine is free like the air. WEEEE! I follow the gurbarni. Just not your interpretation of it. Life is a journey to peace of mind. Everyones journey is different. But the path is the same to be pure. There is only one god. Many people speak of god in many names. Guru nanak's perception is the best view. Thats all. God is a purity exsists in all like water, air, soul, beyond description. I give up on you lot. When you bang your head on a stone all it does is hurt!
 

sachchasoda

SPNer
Mar 19, 2007
59
2
Respected Parma Nagra ji,

All the rest is fine, but calling everybody a Sikh, how you define it. I been reading your posts, can you please elaborate it a little for me.

Is it the Spiritual War within, you are talking about or everything one does and learn?

SaadhSangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna ji.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
Harjas your just an argumentative person.
Argumentative implies combative , contentious , disputatious , quarrelsome.

This is a forum open for discussion, debate and disagreement. So rather than attach a negative personal quality to me, why don't you just stick to the issues we are debating? I don't agree with you at all because you contradict Gurmat Gursikhi. That doesn't make me a negative person.

So Lets say your right. I agree with all you say. I become a hardline dude like you. "O Mighty 1" lol.
I am not the author of Gurmat teaching. But I do try to conform my opinions to Gurmat teaching. Guruji is the author of Gurbani and Gurmat, and yes, He is the Mighty One.

Wont bring me closer to god. You dont understand do you. Being pure brings you closer to god as god is pure. (All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. which is quite an arrogant view.) Its true view though!
You're getting your posts mixed up. I didn't say your comment was quite arrogant, JtotheAtothe... did. I only quoted him. Your definition of Sikh is not true according to the Rehit Maryada and common sense no matter how many times you insist it is.

First it violates common sense. How can ALL men be Sikh, learning to be pure and one with all? Are child molesters learning to be pure through their actions?

You have defined the faith to yourself.

I very specifically cited Gurbani and the Rehit Maryada which are entirely independant from me. The definitions of Sikh faith have nothing to do with me, existed since before I was even born. What in the world are you talking about?
OK, if I quote from the gurbarni, which I can do I can definatly find it translated in english on the internet. Will it make my arguments seem more valid to you! You can use words, and yet have no meaning. I have learnt my way through the gurbarni and people preaching it right.
You can't quote from the Gurbani in support of your positions because Gurbani doesn't support your position, which is why I don't support your position. Please do quote and show me where Guru is saying what you are telling people He is saying?

Preaching is katha, narrative and personal interpretation. I'm not preaching, you are. I'm quoting directly from Rehit Maryada to give voice to the Panthic position as best I can. That isn't my voice. I didn't write the Rehit Maryada. My opinion doesn't have any more authority than yours. I'm just telling you that you are inventing your own definition of Sikh.

Not like a hard stone as harjas tries to throw onto me. No one is willing to carry a burden its how you make the religion feel.

No one is throwing any stones, give me a break. You're the one calling me argumentative, hardline, stone hard, 'O mighty one' and other ridiculous things. I'm not attacking you as a person or any qualities you have as a person. The position you're defending and promoting is not accurate as can be proved over and over. Just go read the Rehit Maryada on how the Sikh Panth defines who is a Sikh. If that definition changes, please let me know and I will have to modify my opinion.

Everyone wants to be liberated. The sikh religion was made so men could exsist in normal life and still believe in god. Not to change and follow codes.
Veerji, do you know anything about what those codes are based on? Did you know Guruji Himself said that the brahmgyani Bhai Gurdas held the key to understanding Gurbani? And Bhai Gurdas was the person who scribed our Shabadguru in laridaar saroop? So when people read the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, it's not just "some codes." The same thing with Rehitnamay. The Sikh Rehit Maryada is based on the Rehitnamay, or codes of conduct for the Khalsa. Not all Rehitnamas are equally authoritative, but many of them were written by people like Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji who Guru Gobind Singh Ji Himself instructed to write down rehits. So to expect Sikhs will not follow Rehits or Panthic teachings because you have a different opinion isn't very persuasive. I mean, if you want to dispute a code, fine. But disputing all the codes you're definitely out of the ballpark of mainstream Sikhi.

Like I said before the only perfect thing is god makes all else in-perfect.
If we call ourselves Sikhs, by the authentic definition of the word, a disciple of Guruji. Then our interest should be in what does Guruji say in the best way we can understand. You said before that Guruji is imperfect because He isn't God. You said before that Sikhism was a man-made religion and thus subject to errors which you, as another human being, could correct.

You're wrong veerji, if you have this opinion because Gurbani says something different. Just look and read it. Now how can you say the opinions you are writing are from Gurbani? I invite you to go and find me quotes. At least you will be reading Guruji's words for yourself. What greater freedom could you wish? But without even reading, how would you possibly know what the Guru of Sikh religion teaches? So all I say, PROVE IT! Please :) ! I want to see Gurbani quotes!


kil smudR Bey rUp pRgit hir nwm auDwrnu ] (1409-9, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
kal samudar bha-ay roop pargat har naam uDhaaran.
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.

bsih sMq ijsu irdY duK dwirdR invwrnu ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
baseh sant jis ridai dukh daridar nivaaran.
Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides.

inrml ByK Apwr qwsu ibnu Avru n koeI ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
nirmal bhaykh apaar taas bin avar na ko-ee.
He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.

mn bc ijin jwixAau BXau iqh smsir soeI ] (1409-10, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
man bach jin jaani-a-o bha-ya-o tih samsar so-ee.
Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.

Drin ggn nv KMf mih joiq sÍrUpI rihE Bir ] (1409-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
Dharan gagan nav khand meh jot savroopee rahi-o bhar.
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

Bin mQurw kCu Bydu nhI guru Arjunu prqK´ hir ]7]19] (1409-12, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
bhan mathuraa kachh bhayd nahee gur arjun partakh-y har. ||7||19||
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

With all your rights and wrongs I would always be questioning when am I right and when am I wrong, and when would I find time to exhault my thought to god. I would never able to attain peace. You follow your view and I'll follow mine. Your path is hard like the stone. mine is free like the air. WEEEE! I follow the gurbarni. Just not your interpretation of it. Life is a journey to peace of mind. Everyones journey is different.
No one has to trouble themselves over any question if they conform to what Guruji is teaching. When we cling to our own understanding of things, our own will, we are not surrendered to Guru. These aren't my interpretations veerji. I don't have that fine a mind to have invented Sikh religion. I don't see how you follow Gurbani. You have not even once given a single Gurbani quote to support anything you say. Go find some Gurbani and quote it. You can't exalt your thought to God anyway without Guruji's Naam, it says in Gurbani. So you have to get amritchukk to get Naam. :) Do it! If you say Paat everyday and jap Naam, it will give you peace. And hopefully you will get a different opinion!

Life is a journey to peace of mind. Everyones journey is different. But the path is the same to be pure. There is only one god. Many people speak of god in many names. Guru nanak's perception is the best view. Thats all. God is a purity exsists in all like water, air, soul, beyond description.
Well, there is truth in this statement. But it feels like that truth wants to keep wandering off... But so far the statement seems true. The only one though, lol.

I give up on you lot. When you bang your head on a stone all it does is hurt!
Well I'm glad Guru doesn't give up on me or I'd be in trouble. I didn't mean to hurt you veerji. Don't worry about banging on my hard head. Go bang your head by reading Gurbani. I mean like really read it. just read Gurbani with your best understanding and go have peace.
 
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