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The Dasam Granth Is NOT Wholly Gurbani Based/ Factually Supported!

Chaan Pardesi

Writer
SPNer
Oct 5, 2008
428
767
London & Kuala Lumpur
This article is not intended to start another revolving controversy that seems to rock and roll the Sikh Panth from time to time. I hope this is read and seen as a source of information and understanding for Sikhs [and non Sikhs ] born abroad and have lived most of their lives out of India and have not had close contact with the Punjab;hence have very little little learning and understanding of the book called dasam granth. What, how and why the issues of dasam granth often bring unparalleled unrest among the Sikhs, whenever they surface.

I have felt this was very necessary, as I have noted in the debates over the nets in the last few years, almost all of the debate is monopolised by those who were born in India or have recently migrated from India.I note participation from more Sikhs like me is lacking because of the lack of proper knowledge of the dasam granth in lands of our birth. I hope those Sikhs like me born abroad will find this helpful and informative. Finally, on my recent visit to Australia and Malaysia many people engaged me on this issue and asked why such controversy rages in the panth for almost the whole of last century.

How did the name Dasam Granth and its existence come about? Why and how do the contents in the dasam granth relate to Guru Gobind Singh ji? Are all the contents of the Dasam Granth authored by Guru Gobind Singh Ji or are there also in the contents writings of his contemporaries and other poets, some of whose names are unknown now. Or are many of the collections in the book also written by people who were no part of the Sikh faith and philosophy.

Is it right to offer the same respect to the dasam granth as Guru Granth Sahib and allow the dasam granth to be rested on a podium or manji sahib as an equal to the Guru Of the Sikhs-Guru Granth Sahib? Considering that ONLY the Guru Granth Sahib was declared a GURU by the Tenth Master himself. Is it right then to pay spiritual respect , with head bowed, and conduct paath pooja of the dasam granth , as seen in recent times in the UK. Some people have carried out an "akhand paath" of Dasam Granth.Do such acts adhere to the recognised Sikh maryada?Are these people right in doing what they are doing?

In the controversial dasam granth or book , which writings are truly related to Sikh teachings and Gurbani of the Sikh Gurus and which are simply for pleasurable reading to enhance some knowledge and bring about meaningful discussion for the individual- are among the many questions that often arise and are asked by people caught in its controversies.

But for many abroad, this is a subject often of no interest or understanding simply because they know so little or have no knowledge about its back ground or origins.I aim to bring that understanding and knowledge so that every one reading can get a basic understanding of why this controversy rages in the Panth and why hairs are split between opposing groups, and the prime message of Guru Gobind Singh is often forgotten and bypassed in their zeal to score points over the opponent becomes the religious norm.


In my opinion,given the current developments of academic knowledge,understanding and education of Sikhs worldwide and their most needful missing component -unity, it is imperative that such irresponsibly unecessary controversies are closed for ever with a firmly educated and factual based decisive act from the Akal Takhat.

It is the duty of every Sikh to understand the issue and move towards a collective corrective direction over the dasam granth , so as not to allow opportunists to rock the peace and unity of the Sikh panth from time to time,seriously unsettling the community and raising unwarranted questions about the principles of the Gurbani and maryada.

Why must it be a duty for every Sikh to understand the controversy ?It is necessary for Sikhs to understand the controversy as the frequent resurgence of this subject causes great disruption and divides the panth every now and then.It has along with derawaad and unjustified rituals in the community misguidedly entrenched the belief in many parts of the community that it is equal to Guru Granth sahib;which has caused great confusion among the Sikhs, and very much misleads the Sikhs religious belief in the one Guru Granth sahib.

Although over the last three decades many authors agree that many of the writings in the dasam granth are neither related to Sikh teachings nor it is Gurbani of the Sikh Guru.That it simply should be regarded as additional knowledge for all.However, it has also become a point of contention that creates a very tense controversy from lack of research/knowledge/understanding and the many vested interests of parties that survive and consolidate their power base by keeping this issue alight.

It is important to understand the background history and origins of this controversial granth, in a simple language.I hope it will also asisst readers to decide and conclude with clarity- what is really the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and what is not the bani in the dasam granth.Some have called to name the non- bani portions of the dasam granth as 'kachi bani', I do not think such moves are wise, as they create a lot of confusion, if not now, in later Sikh history.Labelling Gurbani as Kachi or otherwise does not hold water, as Gurbani cannot be kachi or pakki.It simply is Gurbani or not Gurbani.The use of such poor phrases and definitions in Punjabi is one of the roots causes of many misunderstandings among Sikhs relating to Sikh issues.

The martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji along with three other Sikhs by the Moghuls left a permanent, though painful, but a strong impression upon the psyche of the child Guru Govind Rai.An impression that unlike in normal cirumstances was to grant him the boon to defy against all odds, militarily and spiritually. Abuse of power by the moghuls made Guru Gobind Singh Ji ensure he was to not only become militarily capable but also spiritually and religiously challenging towards the misdeeds of the tyranny by the Moghuls.Literature of heroic deeds and weapons of self defence became his allies and were promoted.He also had an interest to read the historical tales of the hindu vedic avtaars, the heroics of the devtas- holymen against the rakshaks- demons, which he found in the then existing hindu mythological tales.Irrespective of what one says, he appears to have found such reading helpful in his preparation to strike against the root of the evility of the Moghul rule, that was bent on committing excessive tyranny in the name of religion against those who did not ascribe or agree with them.

As His Majesty matured and became a teenager, The Guru Sahib was determined to recreate similar heroic literature, in a language that would be easy for the ordinary person to read and understand.This would also facilitate for the simple people to understand that the power of the Guru Ji was equivalent and more than that of the devtas that the ordinary people had come to understand and revere in their folklore stories over their past years.It was necessary to prepare the people to recognise that the message Guru Gobind Singh had brought was no ordinary message,but one that had the powers and backing of the Almighty.Using examples of such heroic deed and appropriate messages he created the trust and power of the subdued person in his personal ability to challenge and overthrow the demons of the moghul empire. To recreate such heros from down trodden people of the time.- He almost magically created the magnificience of the Khalsa on this earth and not in any mythology.

To create an effective literature as Guru Gobind Singh Ji desired and had perhaps planned for, it required one to be not only sensational but perceptive with great conception and empiricism.To have all the above qualities to generate a greatly inspiring literature, requires uninterupted time and lastly a peaceful place where all these skills could be put to work without outside disturbances.But Guru Gobind Singh Ji had very little of such peaceful opportunities and times in the Punjab of the day.

Initially,Guru Gobind Singh lived at Anandpur sahib in relative peace; then at Paonta Sahib for four years; then back at Anandpur sahib;where constant harrasment from the hill rajas and conflicts with them arose.In between these conflicts, he found some time for his literary and hunting hobbies.It is a well known fact that he had soon gathered an entrouge of 52 poets of repute at his darbar; and conducted daily discourse of Gurbani and discussions with the people.

It cannot be ruled out that he asked some of his darbari poets to collect and collate old historical literature from sanskrit, braj, farsi, kalinga and other languages and re- write it in the simple language of the people to promote an awareness and education.Some of the more prominent stories were talked about,analytically criticised and reffered to by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in his discourses in the sangat.An example here is the shandd 863/64 in the latter half of the Chaubis Avtaar-relating to ram avtaar "...Pae gahe jab te tumre.... ".

This preserved piece of historical literature was reffered to as Samund Sagar in the writings of Kesar Singh Chibber in the Bansawali-nama written in 1769.In 1776, Sarup Das Bhalla finds same commonality over the same piece in his book Mahima Parkash when he refers to it as Vidya Sagar Granth.It is important to understand that all the literature that was collected and collated in writing and orally in the darbar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji was lost in 1705,when Guru Gobind Singh left Anandpur sahib;the moghul forces entered Anandpur sahib and are believed to have destroyed all.Some was also lost at the crossing of river Sirsa.


In 1708, before his worldly departure, Guru Gobind Singh clearly ordained the Sikhs to entrust their future in the Guru Granth Sahib and seek guidance only from their Shabad Guru- Guru Granth sahib and no one else.Guru Granth Sahib was the Shabad Guru and Master of the Sikhs, no one else.

But the real life leadership of the Sikh Panth in that period fell upon Mata Sundari Ji,Bibi Sahib Kaur, and the old but not ancient patriarch- a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh, Bhai Mani Singh Ji.
It appears from the history that for the next decade or so, in very uncertain and unsettled times,no attention was paid to the writings of the Vidya Sagar or any other literature relating to Guru Gobind Singh Ji or his own writings.

However,it appears by 1733, Bhai Mani Singh through great personal effort managed to salvage and collect from here and there about 14 to 15 different pieces of writings relating to Guru Gobind Singh ji's period.But it is also very clear from history that there is absolutely no evidence if all these were collected into ONE book or granth form in the same period.Among the collection was bachitter natak;chandi charitter ;ram avtaar; krishan avtaar etc.However, the whole collection was known simply as bachitter natak granth; although as said there is no evidence if these were binded into a granth at that point of history

In 1740, six years after Bhai Mani Singh's shahidi, a very messy controversy arose over the issue of binding a granth from the collection of Bhai Mani Singh Ji.Who is originally responsible for binding this book,later to become known as the dasam granth, no records exist.The manner in which it is said the issue was "resolved " at Damdama Sahib by Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Mehtab Singh, calls for a very serious evaluation of the whole issue by any intelligent thinking Sikh, even to this day.

It can argued that the solution arrived at by Bhai Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh was far from satisfactory- thus we see debates and disturbingly divided opposition among Sikhs to this day, over the alledged dasam granth


After this incident of the binded granth- the centre of serious controversial disruption in the Panth in 1740- the binded granth was addressed as Dasam Patshah da Granth.Subsequent copies were made and appeared of this granth, with some alteration of the writings, additions were made to some stories in it and some stories changed by those making the copies, some of which are named and some unamed.Some shandds were also interefered with here and there as it perhaps suited the writers objectives.


However, in all, four birs have remained the pillars and centre stage of the controversy and as a record.They are the Bhai Mani Singh Wali Bir;Motibagh wali Bir, Sangrur wali bir, and Patna sahib wali bir.None of them are similar to each other in the contents

In 1897, the Gurmat Granth Parcharak Sabha of Amritsar explored and studied about 30 - 32 such birs that were available and arrived at the conclusion that has presented us the present format of the dasam granth.They decided to standardised the dasam granth to its present 1428 pages, dividing the dasam granth into 15 chapters or headings and created one book- dasam granth.

The matter was again left really unresolved, plunging the Panth into a deeper depth of a controversial future time bomb.Currently, the Sikh Panth is effectively divided into two opposing views over the dasam granth.There are heated arguments and unease over people conducting paath pooja,bowing to the dasam granth and worst of all; lastly and the most disturbing aspect ...is sitting it as an equal to Guru Granth sahib, clearly the only shabad Guru Sikhs should trust in and believe as ordained by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself.Some are now very misguidedly refering to it as Sri "Guru" Dasam Granth sahib!

Where does that leave Guru Granth Sahib- which Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly ordained as the Guru Of The Sikhs in 1708 when he sang a self-composed hymn:
"Agya bhai Akal ki, tabhi chalayo Panth, Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai, Guru Maneyo Granth , Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh, Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le, Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe, Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."
Translation of the above:
"Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All the Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru. Consider the Guru Granth as embodiment of the Gurus. Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The pure shall rule, and impure will be no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees shall be saved."


The message from the Guru sahib ji is very very clear, let there be no doubt about that.But comming back to the issue under discussion, one section of the community believes the whole of the dasam granth contains the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, therefore it should be revered as the "Guru".Those who toe this school of thought are mostly followers of the sant samaj- meaning all those who call themselves sadhs and sants -old deras or new deras- and their followers who are mesmerised by folklore and age old rituals. It includes sympathists who are acamedicians and litararists and have strong belief in the sant tradition, in addition and despite Guru Granth Sahib's clear message.The damdami taksaal falls into this school of thought.Their argument is that the old references to vedic history and era and puranic mythology helps those who read and communicate with Guru Granth sahib, to understand it more clearly and better.But there is no scientific evidence nor any studies to support this claim.They also claim that because all the stories in the dasam granth were collected and collated by Bhai Mani Singh Ji, therefore one should not question it's authenticity and his sincerity.


A factor which holds strong in favour of this school is the continuation of seating the dasam granth parallel to the Guru Granth Sahib at Takhats' Patna sahib and Nander sahib.Various reasons contribute to this practice although clearly contrary to the Shiromani Rehat Maryada of the Sikh panth.The SGPC has failed to persuade these two takhats to adhere to the Guru Ji's final Hukam of 'Guru Maniyo Granth'.


But the other school of thought which is formed mainly of enlightened and Gurbani based academic Sikhs holds a totally opposing view and does not believe that all the writings are that of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or can be attributed to him or any part of the Gurbani wholly.This school of thought accepts only 7% of the contents of the dasam granth sahib are associated with Gurbani.The rest is a collection of poetry, shabads and old folklore of various other writers and from many languages and parts of the country and has been added to mislead Sikhs and dilute the Gurbani, in the unsettled period after the demise of Bhai Mani Singh ji.A strong point for this school is that as Sikhs we believe in one Jot Of Guru Nanak- and subsequently all Gurbani ends with Nanak in Guru Granth Sahib, but this is not the case in the alleged dasam granth.Therefore, apart from a small number of writings, nothing else is the writing of Guru Gobind Singh ji.


With two such opposing views, one can see how the Sikh panth cannot arrive at any conclusive decision over the issue of the dasam granth and is torn apart often embroiled in an almost internal civil war like situation over this sensitive issue.

Issuance of edicts from Akal Takhat to say this subject should not be discussed is neither here nor there;nor a cure but an attmpt to build it up into a pandora's box; that will explode one day and leave the community totally disintegrated and in such doldrums that it will not arise ever again with honour.


Below, I reproduce the contents of the dasam granth and give their break down.

No. Title Pages Total Pages % of dasam granth

1] Jaap 1-10 10 0.7%

2] Akal Ustat 11-38 28 1.9%

3] Bachitter Natak 39-73 34 2.4%

4] Chandi Charitter-1 74-99 26 1.8%

5] Chandi Charitter-2 100-119 20 1.4%

6] Var Bhagauti Ji Ki 119-127 9 0.7 %

7] Gian Parbodh 127-155 28 1.9%

8] Chaubis Avtar 155- 611 456 32%

9] Brahm Avtar 611-635 24 1.7%

10] RudR Avtar 635-709 74 5.2%

11] Shabad,Swaiye,etc 709-711 3 0.6%

12] Shashter Nam Mala 717-808 91 6.4%

13] Chitro Pakhian 808- 1388 580 40.6%

14] Zafarnama 1389- 1394 6 0.4%

15] Hakaiitaan 1394- 1428 34 2.4%


From the above, the writings that the Sikh panth has accepted are Jaap Sahib, Akal Ustat, Bachitter Natak, some Shabads and Swaiye, [Khalsa Mahima Benti Chaupaii] and Zafarnama.

The total content of the accepted material forms only about 7% , which is spread over about 100 pages in the dasam granth.

The rest of 93% material of the dasam granth has been rejected and is neither accepted as bani, nor as the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji or is of any relevance to Sikhs and Sikh Gurus or their teachings.

I now leave it to the readers to decide how a book that is 93% irrelevent, has engaged the Sikh panth in countless controversies, divisions and now near usurping the unquestionble Guru Granth Sahib's position, due
to the misinformed/ignorant/ irationale/hindu mythology lovers/loving section of the community.

How can a book clearly with 93% non Sikh,non Gurbani and non Guru related material be sat next to Guru Granth Sahib , or even addressed as 'guru' dasam Granth ?


Individual Sikh readers must decide themsleves just how "genuine" this granth is that has continually disrupted the Sikh minds and Panth and rocked it between the advocates of sanatan hindu mythology and Purely Gurbani and factual based Sikhs.

All constructive feedback will be appreciated-Chaan Pardesi@aol.com
Gurcharan Singh, Kulim
London, United Kingdom
Kamuning Hills, Malaysia
 

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Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
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146
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You do realize what you are saying is wrong. Honestly, why would anyone want to make something up that is mostly already in Sikhism? Most of the people here do not believe the Hindu Gods exist or anything but even in phaat it talks about Harnaksh being killed by the order of god to Narsingh/simha.

Lol, whatever though, I don't waste my breath here since no one takes it seriously.
 

Randip Singh

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May 25, 2005
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You do realize what you are saying is wrong. Honestly, why would anyone want to make something up that is mostly already in Sikhism? Most of the people here do not believe the Hindu Gods exist or anything but even in phaat it talks about Harnaksh being killed by the order of god to Narsingh/simha.

Lol, whatever though, I don't waste my breath here since no one takes it seriously.
Well it would help if you stopped using MInkey icons and engaged in reasoned debate, with factual articles and books to back up your points.

Like the milk debate, just because you say so it doesn't make it so. Other people on these forums appear to be able to join in a debate, and then post links to articles that back up their points.

You fall short of that, hence why your posts are deleted or ignored.

I urege you strongly to enagae ina more mature manner.
 

Chaan Pardesi

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Oct 5, 2008
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Kamla Ji, I would thank you , had your reply been of some constructive nature; but the problem is it was not of any nature!And I believe- and many souls here would whole heartedly agree with me-that .. ... YOU KNOW that.

I dont know nor understand what you are trying to say; perhaps the standard of discussion here is of too high a STANDARD for you to cope with.

I can understand that for the sake of saying something, anything,you have simply waffled along..sometimes saying nothing at all is more intelligent than that, my dear Kamla ji!

The rest, I shall leave to the esteemed members; some whom have already said what they needed to, and that information has also given me some understanding of you!



Even though you dont, as you allege, you HAVE taken time out to take this and reply.I thank you for your time.

PS,by the way, what is a phaat?I wondered if you meant * ART?
 
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Luckysingh

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Dec 4, 2011
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Interesting read and information given.
At first, when I read the heading, like most others I thought 'oh another talk about dasam granth controversy'.
But to my surprise there was some very interesting facts submitted. I think this issue will just carry on unless it is officially declared genuine or non genuine.

The only problem is if declared genuine, there will be the ones jumping the wagon to put it by side of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
This is where an official distinction would have to be declared.
The problem is that even though only a very small percentage is true gurbani based, it can therefore NOT be denied.
Is it easier for Akal Takht to not make an offical declaration just to prevent any drastic measures either way ?
Maybe, sometimes it can be easier to leave the general sangat to decide what is and what isn't.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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You do realize what you are saying is wrong. Honestly, why would anyone want to make something up that is mostly already in Sikhism? Most of the people here do not believe the Hindu Gods exist or anything but even in phaat it talks about Harnaksh being killed by the order of god to Narsingh/simha.

Lol, whatever though, I don't waste my breath here since no one takes it seriously.
How can the author say..main na ganehsma krsihanm mannui...I DONT Beleive In ganesha s and Krishan etc etc....and THEN go and write 22 Chapters on these SAME dieties... Self contradictory...and also DAMAGING to Beleifs of amrtidharees like Kamala ji who do BELIEVE in ALL these dieities...we have to CHOOSE ONE SIDE...and DG plays BOTH sides against the MIDDLE !!
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
How can the author say..main na ganehsma krsihanm mannui...I DONT Beleive In ganesha s and Krishan etc etc....and THEN go and write 22 Chapters on these SAME dieties... Self contradictory...and also DAMAGING to Beleifs of amrtidharees like Kamala ji who do BELIEVE in ALL these dieities...we have to CHOOSE ONE SIDE...and DG plays BOTH sides against the MIDDLE !!
I don't believe in.. that count mean many things, it can mean he doesn't believe in worshiping them even thought they exist, it can mean that he doesn't believe that they are the one and only god and don't want to worship them, it can mean that nothing will benefit you by worshiping them. But they do exist, I can show you many quotes, but I don't feel like it because I showed you them before, or well I think I did. Lol, I get what you are trying to say about then writing chapters about them, it can be just praising them but thinking they are not God, like when your boss gives you money and you may praise them as they are helping you, but you know they are not God, meaning you do not worship, but praise.


I love my monkey smilies!! I don't see why they are considered not mature



******Note; I do believe/know the Vedic Gods exist, but I do not pray to them as the one and only God.
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Kamalaji

I have decided that you are an incredibly special person who has been indeed sent here by God. We all have a role to fulfil in life, and yours is very very important. I will no longer hear a bad word said about you. The fact that you are Amritdhari makes you even more important, your role in this natak we call life cannot be underestimated.

I hope others take inspiration from your writings as to the correct path to follow, as your aura shines like a lighthouse, rather than those who would be Sirens.

Never stop being the lighthouse, you have an important job, keep it up, you are doing brilliantly.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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The trouble now is that such controversies have been left to fester for so long..thye have turned septic...example..the SRM Sikh rehat Maryada declares quite plainly and clearly that there are THREE Banis for Morning ..Japji, Jaap and 10 Tavparsaad Swiyahs and 2 more in the Evening -Rehraas and Sohila...making a total of FIVE BANIS DAILY. Yet the Jathedar Akal takhat when asked...says even more clearly and definitley that there are SEVEN Banis - FIVE in the Morning and 2 in the evning...when POINTED OUT that this stand Contradicts the SRM which He is sworn to UPHOLD..his reply...OH there is NO where written in the SRM..that a person CANNOT READ MORE than FIVE banis....He finds this answer quite logical...
So logically when the SRM says a Sikh SHOULD Marry ONE..he can actually Marry FOUR or more because its NOT specifically written that Sikh CANNOT marry more than One !! and so on...in other words there MUST be 2 statements for each RULE..one saying What should be so..and second one saying SUCH and such CANNOT be done.
Further the jathedar also agrees that the SRM cannot be changed by individuals..but by the Collective Panth..so he and his co-jathedars are NOT changing anything..JUST DISREGARDING the provisions they DONT personally LIKE.
Any "decisions" made by SUCH "reeds swaying in the wind" jathedars will NOT be accepted by ALL....because for all you know they may CHANGE them the very next day..and do a complete U-Turn as done in the Nihung Dharam Singh hukmanmah excommunicating him..just last week..
 

Ishna

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Gyaniji, the English translation of the SRM you are referring to is:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] p. Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.

(http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_four_chap_eleven.html)

[/FONT]By including the word 'generally' it is saying 'you can, but you probably shouldn't' or at least acknowledging that in some cases it might happen.

Is the original Punjabi saying the same thing, or is the English a mis-translation?

Regarding the Dasam Granth, couldn't they just take out the bits commonly held to be Gurbani out of the DG and put it into a separate smaller granth and denounce the complete one?
 
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Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
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Kamalaji
I have decided that you are an incredibly special person who has been indeed sent here by God. We all have a role to fulfil in life, and yours is very very important. I will no longer hear a bad word said about you. The fact that you are Amritdhari makes you even more important, your role in this natak we call life cannot be underestimated.
I hope others take inspiration from your writings as to the correct path to follow, as your aura shines like a lighthouse, rather than those who would be Sirens.
Never stop being the lighthouse, you have an important job, keep it up, you are doing brilliantly.
Harry ji, thank you! That means a lot to me than you realize :) You are a good person as well, I never taken anything said badly from you, I just thought you don't understand what I was trying to say in the past haha.
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
389
146
Canada.
It may say 5 banis, but it isn't a problem to me to do the other 2 as well, I don't see why it is like a problem. I think the 'wife' rule is kinda like a excuse.. as if a man has multiple wives in India it is kinda OK, but if a lady has multiple husbands it will be considered gross :p
 

Ishna

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Kamalaji, at the risk of asking a divisive question, did you receive SGPC version of amrit sanchar or Damdami Taksaal or what?
 

itsmaneet

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Kamla Ji, I would thank you , had your reply been of some constructive nature; but the problem is it was not of any nature!And I believe- and many souls here would whole heartedly agree with me-that .. ... YOU KNOW that.

I dont know nor understand what you are trying to say; perhaps the standard of discussion here is of too high a STANDARD for you to cope with.

I can understand that for the sake of saying something, anything,you have simply waffled along..sometimes saying nothing at all is more intelligent than that, my dear Kamla ji!

The rest, I shall leave to the esteemed members; some whom have already said what they needed to, and that information has also given me some understanding of you!



Even though you dont, as you allege, you HAVE taken time out to take this and reply.I thank you for your time.

PS,by the way, what is a phaat?I wondered if you meant * ART?
Dear Gurcharan Singh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Well, the questions asked by you are very critical & only experts & enlightened souls can answer it perfectly. Normally in India or may be abroad it's a human tendency to follow the paths established by other no matter where it takes oneself. In my experience in my teenage , when I heard Sikhs opposing Shri Dasam Grath I too opposed & when some favoured I favoured too..Obviously it was just the lack of Nitnem & Sant-Sangat in me. Nitnem & Sant Sangat are very powerful knowledgeable modes to understand Gurbani.

So, as far an the level of Prakash of these Holy Granths is concerned -
'Sab Sikhan Ko Hukum Hai Guru Maneo Granth' its the message given by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj himself. Without any doubt Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the only Guru we have but this doesn't mean that other writings of our Gurus are not important. There have been numerous Sants in Sikhi like Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Sant Singh Ji Makeen, Isher Singh Ji etcc.... they never uttered a single quest on this & following this Holy Granth.

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have 1430 Ang. whereas Dasam Granth when compiled intentionally was kept upto 1429 Ang. to ensure that Shri Guru Grath Sahib Ji is the only Guru Sikhs have.

In my views & to my small knowledge, Sikh are both - Sant & Sipahi. There are times in between when you have to be a Sipahi to safeguard your rights & religion. For that purpose Shri Dasam Granth Ji provides the Beer Ras [To Defend & To Kill]. If we read Shri Dasam Grath, it tells about 2 Ras - Rudra Ras & Beer Ras. Rudra Ras is the Ras that makes a human just to kill all coming on his way without thinking anything whereas Beer Ras is the Ras which makes oneself to defend & then kill if necessary...so it's a long topic again. Shri Dasam Granth is the Granth induced Martial Arts in Sikhs.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Harry ji, thank you! That means a lot to me than you realize :) You are a good person as well, I never taken anything said badly from you, I just thought you don't understand what I was trying to say in the past haha.
kamala Ji..at SPN we are all sort of Family...no one really means to hurt/or be offensive at heart..so dont worry that some including me dont agree doesnt mean i dont like you..its NOT like that..its just matter of opinions different..nothing less or more..each perosn is a valuable member of SPN...never leave or feel bad..play the GAME !! Cheers
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Kamalaji,

I think you may have misunderstood me, allow me to explain, although it does rather illustrate how we read what we wish to read, rather than paying attention to detail.

Firstly, I should explain what sirens do, they lure sailors to unsafe waters, they are beautiful, and many sailors fall for their charms only to smash into rocks.They are Babas, Sants, Dera Wallahs,

Lighthouses on the other hand do the opposite,they are surrounded by dangerous rocks, in your case, your opinions, they warn sailors away, they shine like beacons, and preventative measures can be taken , their illumination shows the truth clear and visible. They are people who believe only what they can see on the surface, and they propagate these beliefs to any who would listen, however the concepts are so confused that it is obvious, even to a simpleton, that such concepts could not possibly exist.

You are actually in a win win situation, because your heartfelt beliefs will do much good while you believe them, and you will do much good because of them, as none of them are 'bad', you are a good beautiful person, my sister, if on the other hand you can see what lies deeper, then you win again!

Being completely sincere that puts you one step above me

I hope I have not offended you, but I can now accept your opinions competely and without argument, as that is what they are, your opinions and you are entitled to themkaurhug
 

bscheema

SPNer
Jan 4, 2010
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once a man said to me Guru Granth sahib is for humanity ,everyone and Dasam granth is only for sikh. its like a chanakya neeti , he said today Sikh lost interest in weaponry,politics .how come Sikh withstand in far future when he ll b pointed out like other races(Muslims)
 

Kamala

Banned
May 27, 2011
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Canada.
Kamalaji, at the risk of asking a divisive question, did you receive SGPC version of amrit sanchar or Damdami Taksaal or what?
I thave taken Amrit in the 'SGPC version of amrit sanchar' at my Gurdwara by the nagar kirtan. There were panj pyares and a whole bunch of other people taking it as well. :) I didn't really know what to do so a friend just told me everything to do at the time haha.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Kamala Ji..on my first visit to USA i was taken to a stadium..Yankees or something was playing..the whole stadium was full of what looked like a billion yelling crowd..i didnt know even the name of the game..and what it was all about..well my friend told me exactly what to do...when everyone stood up and yelled yankee yankee..i did the same..and you know what..i became a yankee fan....my friend bought me a ynakee jersey, a funny looking football funny hat etc..which i hang on my wall....although to this day i dont know anything about yankees or american football or baseball whatever it is called....once in a while i wear the Jersey..throw the weird ball around...and am known as the yankee Malaysian...:singhsippingcoffee::singhsippingcoffee::singhsippingcoffee::singhsippingcoffee::singhsippingcoffee:
 

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