The Current State Of Sikhism In The West

Dec 18, 2012
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Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.

Sir I agree in part with what you are saying only thing is as I have highlighted it is this, all humanity is learning! Who are we to place a value on humanity to me it is priceless, who gets to decide who is a sikh and who is not? How can you achieve a boundary on something so great that exists in all (learning)? Wether we like it or not, this is out of the established sikh orders hands it is the message of god! It is creation it is about the creator. It will flourish as nature does with all its creation, you can put concrete on the floor then tarmac over it but after time a plant will make a crack through it and still grow through even after civilizations have ended nature, that love for life still exists! Why deny love for humanity embrace it! It can not be stopped and love will conquer all! All we can do is nuture it, nothing more!

First Parma, I apologise for the late reply, iv just been busy with revision for my up comming exams. I hope everyone in the forum is good, and everyone will have a sucessful and happy new year.

Now Parma, I agree to some aspect of your post as it has highlighted a key concept in the journey to knowledge, but however i disagree with your ideology concerning it.
I am 18 years old and I'm learning, no doubt about that, im a student and i more than anyone appreciate the power of knowledge.
Now you have highlighted two important concepts and in my opinion this is how they work in tandem with one another.

Nature + Nuture = Knowledge.

We are all born in to Sikh families or maybe others may not. We are given the start, but without correctly nurturing our gift of live we can not ascend to the path which we would like to. Parma i completely disagree with your statement regarding the Sikh management has no power of this. They have the power, with power comes responsibility. Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings. Without nurturing, we cant achieve anything as human beings or even Sikhs as general. Animals need direction and are trained to achieve there intended goals, humans are no different, humans require education to prosper in life. Our management has not nurtured our Sikh youth and infact the general sikh population. If there are no teachers how can a student learn ?
There is little use of shabads being voiced to the youth if they cant understand or even speak Punjabi
There is little use of keeping hair, if we don't understand its importance
There is little use of even being a Sikh if we completely don't understand Sikhism at all.

And this is across all the board, Sikhs don't wander like animals and become astray, its because they were not given direction to become a Sikh and a good human being.
Sikh's gurus were sent to teach us, yes us students and help nurture our spirits and lives to become a Sikh.
Same principle with Jesus and Muhammad.

Nature is nothing without nurturing it. And it is the responsibility of the real management to nurture our Sikh and help create a strong Sikh faith with core values which are represented worldwide.


Sikh means to learn, and currently we are students of Sikhism. The term 'Sikh' should not be handed out automatically without embracing the core values, and ones should be encouraged to travel upon that journey to become a Sikh.
The concept of becoming a Sikh should be this :
I ( Student )----- Must Learn ( Sikhi values )-----------> Sikh

Now the current system is this

Everyone is Sikh, Feel free to do anything you please because at the end, everyone will become a Sikh
We have effectively lowered our own standards of our own religion. But take this for food for thought.
Will God lower his standards for us to achieve Mukhti ?
Or do we have to raise our own standards for us to achieve God's unification and achieve mukhti ?

Our current Sikh management has completely mismanaged this concept.
We are all equal as human beings, but are our values which define a Sikh all equal, are they the same ?
We should not have it be an accepted norm to classify everyone as a Sikh without even being a Sikh to begin with.

Sikhs leaders should forget the formation of Khalistan, for now.
Concentrate on teaching us all, and carry the responsibility to nurture the youth of today and create good Sikhs.
Have plenty of teachers, young and old. Write plenty of books for us young guys would love to read about our history. Make documentaries, Release podcast that even a non Sikh could understand, in English.
Sikh needs to be nurtured, and for that to happen, the heads of Sikhi should take responsibility to nurture the rest of the Sikh body.
 
Dec 18, 2012
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All the problems are world wide and they are everywhere.
To confine them to one place is ignorance because where child labour may not exist, then other problems of drugs and prostitution will, and vice versa

Lucky, I completely agree with your perspective and opinion, i think the thread should be renamed to current State of Sikhism.
I have just given my perspective of Sikhism from the west, from what i have seen. So forgive me if i do not know all the complex issues in India too, because I haven't lived in India enough to give a fair conclusion.
I encourage everyone on this thread to give there views from everywhere they are situated, West or East, South or North.
 
Dec 18, 2012
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Just out of curiosity, where is it prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
I think the divorce rate in Punjab is lower because it's not socially acceptable for a couple to divorce, even in cases of domestic violence. Although I agree in principle that casual sex and lack of committment are not virtuous qualities my personal opinion is that not allowing couples to divorce due to domestic violence is worse. I wouldn't say divorce is due to 'primiscuity and egotism' but a higher expectation (perhaps delusional) of quality of life. Westerners don't want to stay in a relationship that's not working. By the same token they can be less inclined to put committment behind working out their problems. Of course, these are generalisations and there are people who sit at either end of the spectrum and everywhere in between.

In the UK, 34% of marriages will end before the 20th wedding anniversary, which is at the lower end of your ball park. Source. OMG a source!

Prostitution is a global trade, Punjab is not exempt. Here's an article about trying to break a prostitution tradition in a Punjabi village. Luckily we don't really have this kind of tradition in the West. Nor do we have temples with prostitutues like some temples in India still do.

There is a porn industry in India. India has made good contributions to sexuality in the world, with literature like the Kama Sutra. There is no equivelant sex manual in 'the West' unless you include The Joy Of Sex complete with the illustrations with 70's moustaches lol

What about rape, does that count as extra marital sex? Rape occurs in Punjab as well as western countries.



Please show me your statistics. How have you compared the comparitively small Punjabi region with whatever 'the West' is exactly? Serial killers are not found in Punjab? Just corrupt officials who knock off anyone who gets in their way, but it's ok because they have power? Here's an article about the recent shooting of the police officer who was trying to protect his daughter. But I'm sure he wasn't terrorising anyone but just defending his community.

There's no formal apology for Operation Blue Star either.



Greed is definately a problem in the west. I will agree, quality of life in the west is so high because it's built on the foundation of exploiting poorer 3rd world countries. Or just exploiting in general. Like Apple and their Chinese factories.

I might suggest that poverty in India is reinforced by the caste system which is still perpetuated by some Sikhs. The west has nothing to do with that bugbear in the India closet.

Can I see some suicide rates for Punjab? Can we include honour killings in the total because I'm not sure where else it fits in our discussion.



Westerners are not the only ones capable of racism... ... ...

Please tell me more about the white supremacy agenda, with sources. Sorry you've had such a negative personal experience with names. My western workplace employes a lot of multicultural people, including a couple of Sikhs.

The attack in Wisconsin was tragic and related to white supremacy. I point out they are the minority. I don't know much about racism in Punjab, I've never been there. I would speculate that racism is a human quality, coming from our tendancy to compartmentalise and see differences. From my personal experience, during my school years multiculturalism was drilled into me. Our countries are so multicultural now its hard to identify with our own sense of western culture. There is constant promotion in my country of multicultural events, tolerance and diversity. Does the same happen in Punjab? I've been warned, as a white female, if I ever do visit India I should always wear a salwar kameez and be wary because I will be viewed as a piece of meat by Indian men. I think that might be a form of racism.



I would say, each culture has it's stengths and weaknesses. Each culture has it's own moral standard. You can't arbitrarily apply one cultural mode to another culture and call it proof.

I'm glad I'm a woman in a western country. I have a voice, I have freedom to be responsible for myself without a man making all my decisions for me, I can choose who I marry, I can divorce them with support from my community if my husband beats me or demands I have an abortion, and I exist with a whole heap of other women because we are valued, not seen as a burdon, in our society. We are not aborted in the womb because of our gender, our birth is celebrated like the birth of a boy, and we can walk down the street in our mini skirts without a high risk of a man groping us.

Here's an article on dowry and female feoticide (which apparently isn't as under control as you might think) in Punjab: http://punjabnewsline.com/news/Eliminate-dowry_-female-foeticide-from-Punjab_-Harsimrat-Badal.html

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore. Perhaps our next exchange could be of the positive things both our cultures have contributed to the world. Because along with the bad things there are good things too, in both cultures. And I'm done slinging mud.

Ishna, although i haven't indulged myself personally in your discussion, I would like to add my own perspective concerning both of your view points.

Ishna, concerning your rights about women i completely agree. Women along with men should be respected, and they should be given equal respect and an equal platform of opportunity as men in our society and more importantly in our sangat.
I love women, in fact i have been raised in a house hold where Im the only male, and it maybe my own gift of opportunity that i have learnt the values of women which we don't not normally see in society.
Being raised by mom mainly in the absence of dad, as showed me how strong women can be, and few people can change that view of mine.
Having sisters, female friends has shown me there perspective of life. Yes our women have been wronged in the past, and is it our fault ?
Yes it is, but we have the chance as a society to rectify those mistakes, and give them equal consideration as males.
Are women forever going to think, are they ever going to treat us better ?
Ever ?
Because they are right, and we as a society need to change.
Respect women, and the chances are they will respect you. Mutual love comes from respect, and if we respect one another we can love one another.

Women are given more rights and freedom compared to the last 50 years. But to all women it is important that freedom and the power they are given shouldn't be abused.
True power should be in response to a need not a desire.
Women's power of equality should be used to promote respect, not revengeful or selfish acts.
Just because women in the west can do anything, doesn't mean those acts are morally right. Same with men, just because were free to do anything doesn't mean its right to. Because in the end we will pay with our own karma and that's when God has control over our fate.
Womens equality shouldn't be abused but should give them an equal platform to achieve there goals and create a positive effect on there families, and more importantly in society.
Same with men, our power as individuals should be used for good, and we shouldn't abuse them.
This is for men and women, live your lives with a responsibility to create a positive impact on our society, and help keep marriages strong, and ensure our children show those positive values which they have learned from there parents nurturing.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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We are all born in to Sikh families or maybe others may not. We are given the start

No, we are given a lot of contradicting information we have to forget, before we start

Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings.

It is the fault of the elder generation that Sikhism is in the state it is in today. Elders have used Sikhism as a tool to justify traditional ritualistic beliefs. The magnificence and unique facets of Sikhism are overlooked in favour of easier and better ways to 'worship' God rather than emulate God. A true Sikh elder would be wise, inclusive, aware of the benefits of understanding, over the pitfalls or ritual. They would not care about public opinion, only the truth. However, most elders are merely spin doctors, making sure what should be seen is seen.

Animals need direction and are trained to achieve there intended goals

In the wild, animals just exist, using all the natural gifts they were born with. They do not need to be trained to live, and neither do people, understanding is the key to wisdom. Animals have it in bulk, humans have to find it.

Everyone is Sikh, Feel free to do anything you please because at the end, everyone will become a Sikh
We have effectively lowered our own standards of our own religion

It is strange that everyone is a Sikh, but I have yet to meet one.

Or do we have to raise our own standards for us to achieve God's unification and achieve mukhti ?

Yes, we could have a standards enforcement team to make sure these standards are respected. We would not want any undesirables trying to achieve unification and mukti, the cheek of these people.

Our current Sikh management has completely mismanaged this concept.
We are all equal as human beings, but are our values which define a Sikh all equal, are they the same ?
We should not have it be an accepted norm to classify everyone as a Sikh without even being a Sikh to begin with.

Sikhism, in case you possibly missed it, is about inclusion, about an attitude, an air, a take on life, it is about being a Sikh and living by Sikh values. I do not think many of the Muslims and Hindus that fought by the side of the Tenth Guru would appreciate being told they did not qualify. I am sure in their hearts they were Sikhs, and understood the Sikh way of life.

Concentrate on teaching us all, and carry the responsibility to nurture the youth of today and create good Sikhs.
Have plenty of teachers, young and old. Write plenty of books for us young guys would love to read about our history. Make documentaries, Release podcast that even a non Sikh could understand, in English.
Sikh needs to be nurtured, and for that to happen, the heads of Sikhi should take responsibility to nurture the rest of the Sikh body.

its not about history, podcasts, its actually very simple, just live truthfully, be aware of the path ahead, and allow yourself to be guided across.
 
Apr 12, 2007
351
262
Re: The current state of Sikhism in the west.

First Parma, I apologise for the late reply, iv just been busy with revision for my up comming exams. I hope everyone in the forum is good, and everyone will have a sucessful and happy new year.

Now Parma, I agree to some aspect of your post as it has highlighted a key concept in the journey to knowledge, but however i disagree with your ideology concerning it.
I am 18 years old and I'm learning, no doubt about that, im a student and i more than anyone appreciate the power of knowledge.
Now you have highlighted two important concepts and in my opinion this is how they work in tandem with one another.

Nature + Nuture = Knowledge.

We are all born in to Sikh families or maybe others may not. We are given the start, but without correctly nurturing our gift of live we can not ascend to the path which we would like to. Parma i completely disagree with your statement regarding the Sikh management has no power of this. They have the power, with power comes responsibility. Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings. Without nurturing, we cant achieve anything as human beings or even Sikhs as general. Animals need direction and are trained to achieve there intended goals, humans are no different, humans require education to prosper in life. Our management has not nurtured our Sikh youth and infact the general sikh population. If there are no teachers how can a student learn ?
There is little use of shabads being voiced to the youth if they cant understand or even speak Punjabi
There is little use of keeping hair, if we don't understand its importance
There is little use of even being a Sikh if we completely don't understand Sikhism at all.

And this is across all the board, Sikhs don't wander like animals and become astray, its because they were not given direction to become a Sikh and a good human being.
Sikh's gurus were sent to teach us, yes us students and help nurture our spirits and lives to become a Sikh.
Same principle with Jesus and Muhammad.

Nature is nothing without nurturing it. And it is the responsibility of the real management to nurture our Sikh and help create a strong Sikh faith with core values which are represented worldwide.


Sikh means to learn, and currently we are students of Sikhism. The term 'Sikh' should not be handed out automatically without embracing the core values, and ones should be encouraged to travel upon that journey to become a Sikh.
The concept of becoming a Sikh should be this :
I ( Student )----- Must Learn ( Sikhi values )-----------> Sikh

Now the current system is this

Everyone is Sikh, Feel free to do anything you please because at the end, everyone will become a Sikh
We have effectively lowered our own standards of our own religion. But take this for food for thought.
Will God lower his standards for us to achieve Mukhti ?
Or do we have to raise our own standards for us to achieve God's unification and achieve mukhti ?

Our current Sikh management has completely mismanaged this concept.
We are all equal as human beings, but are our values which define a Sikh all equal, are they the same ?
We should not have it be an accepted norm to classify everyone as a Sikh without even being a Sikh to begin with.

Sikhs leaders should forget the formation of Khalistan, for now.
Concentrate on teaching us all, and carry the responsibility to nurture the youth of today and create good Sikhs.
Have plenty of teachers, young and old. Write plenty of books for us young guys would love to read about our history. Make documentaries, Release podcast that even a non Sikh could understand, in English.
Sikh needs to be nurtured, and for that to happen, the heads of Sikhi should take responsibility to nurture the rest of the Sikh body.

My reply is a bit lame sorry but I have been through this discussion with many forum members in the past! So good luck to you! I really dont feel like explaining further it has been done so many times now in other ways through other threads! I think I will take time out like Vouthon ji this year, unless I come across something that really interests me. Gurfathe! Happy New Year! Sat Sangat ji!

You; Parma i completely disagree with your statement regarding the Sikh management has no power of this

Me; They are not doing a good job then if they have the power! They are not stopping people opening up dera's they can not even form a decent committe without in fighting! Why is everyone not wearing the 5 k's? They control the budgetry systems and employ a few gangs to get their ideals across!

You; They have the power, with power comes responsibility. Its the responsibility of our elder generation to teach the younger generation, and nurture our young Sikhs to become sikhs and more importantly good human beings
Me; Even kabir was given the cold shoulder by the brahmins of the time, the better class of people as you are saying sikhism is exclusive and not inclusive is that the guru and student you wish to pursue an Ideal that even kabir rejected and with this style of thinking our religion would have suffered a lot of kabir work that is included in the Guru Granth Sahib
You; If there are no teachers how can a student learn ?
Me; There is always a teacher waheguru, that is the concept you dont understand. A gianni explaining a shabad to you is totally different to waheguru. A gianni is not a guru just a person with knowledge on the shabad!
 
Last edited:
Nov 23, 2010
263
599
Ishna ji,
This is a good question. I wonder the same thing myself.
Just out of curiosity, where is it prohibited in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
I think the divorce rate in Punjab is lower because it's not socially acceptable for a couple to divorce, even in cases of domestic violence.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/39594-the-current-state-of-sikhism-west-3.html
Doesn't anyone have a response?
Come on folks if this was about meat the thread would be ten pages long by now.lol
 
Nov 23, 2010
263
599
It seems greed isn't just a problem in the West. I think bad taste runs a real close second here.
article-2257209-16C051F1000005DC-920_634x822.jpg

Golden appeal: Wealthy Datta Phuge has splashed out £14,000 on a solid gold shirt to make sure he's a 24 karat hit with women in central India


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-shirt-GOLD-impress-ladies.html#ixzz2HJCL2Dqn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Sorry I just couldn't resist.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,213
Bad taste? No it is an economic and social investment. He is not kidding himself.


That is not exactly about the state of Sikhism in the west. But it makes a relevant point. Don't you think however that there are marriageable women everywhere in the world, and their families, who are of a mindset. Marry for economic security, and the richer the better. Afterwards, everything else can fall into place. If it does not... oh well... you have the money. What do you think is on the minds of all the women who have married Donald Trump since his first divorce? They all know they will bite the dust as soon as he tires of them, but they will walk away with jewelry and a bank account. Maybe cynicism and greed describe the problem with Sikhi in the West and in the East, and with a whole bunch of other religions too.
 
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