Hinduism - The Brahmins, The Bhagats, Then And Now | SIKH PHILOSOPHY NETWORK
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Hinduism The Brahmins, The Bhagats, Then And Now

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Yes necessary to be a Singh, a Khalsa warrior but not a requirement to be a good or even an enlightened Sikh.

I have studied "Brahmin philosophy" to some degree, I think their views are largely misrepresented by Sikh missionaries. Brahmins have lived well with Gurus. Three of them went with Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib to their martyrdom, where they were tortured in front of Guru Sahib. Many of the contributions to Guru Granth Sahib come from Brahmins. I think there's more than 10 Brahmins whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib.

Nirmalas and Brahmins both devote their life to study. Kabir says "Brahmin is one who studies Brahm (God)." I don't see why someone who studies cannot be a Sikh.
 

techsingh

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Jul 15, 2012
107
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Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Kabir says "Brahmin is one who studies Brahm (God)." could you list the entire shabad.

is idol worship of shiv's ling a part of Brahmin philosophy?

The brahmins that went to Sri Guru Teg Bhadhaur ji had no choice left but Guru ji, all their devatas never showed when evoked.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

I should clarify there is no one "Brahmin Philosophy" that's why I put it in quotes. There is in fact no such thing as Brahmin philosophy. But all Indian philosophies have come from Brahmins, as it was their responsibility to study and come up with new knowledge, philosophy, science, medicine etc.

Here's the shabad by Sant Kabir Das ji:
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥
Says Kabir those who contemplate Brahm

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥
is said to be the Brahmin amongst us.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=324&L=19&id=14844


Here's one by Guru Amardas ji
ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
He alone is Brahmin who knows Brahm, and with Hari he is lovingly immersed.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=68&L=2&id=2737

is idol worship of shiv's ling a part of Brahmin philosophy?
Idol worship of Shivlingam is part of the Shaiva tradition.

When Aurangzeb was persecuting Kaffirs, the Kashmiri Pandits went to Guru Tegh Bahadur ji in desperation. They went because they were not warriors but professors and priests. They had no defense when they were being persecuted. So they went to their Devta, Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, and he came to their rescue along with three Brahmins, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Dyal Das ji and Bhai Sati Das ji went with him.
 
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techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=324&L=19&id=14844


The way i see the shabad is. During kabir ji time the word brahmin was "proclaimed" to hold utmost ethical values..... So bhagat Kabir ji says this is what a brahmin is ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ . ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥
So basically Bhagat Kabir ji says this is my definition of Brahmin.. one who contemplates on the supreme bhram alone.. Not there idol practices.

My knowledge is limited so maybe someone-else can add on.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...&L=19&id=14844


The way i see the shabad is. During kabir ji time the word brahmin was "proclaimed" to hold utmost ethical values..... So bhagat Kabir ji says this is what a brahmin is ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ . ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥

So basically Bhagat Kabir ji says this is my definition of Brahmin.. one who contemplates on the supreme bhram alone..
Yes you are absolutely correct.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Yes you are absolutely correct.
So why do you call the Bhagats brahmin when they absolutely reject brahmins ideals.

The word "Brahmin" in the above shabad was just used to explain to the common brahmin to stop their idol worshiping for specific purposes. And become Gurmukh and worship the supreme brahm.

Am not understanding you?
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

So why do you call the Bhagats brahmin when they absolutely reject brahmins ideals.
To my knowledge none of the Bhagats were Brahmins (born Brahmins) and I didn't say any of them were. They were mostly born in lower castes, except for Bhagat Ramanand ji who was a Brahmin (He was Kabir Ji's Guru and was also a Guru to most of the Bhagats). In addition there are more than 10 other authors in Guru Granth sahib that are Brahmins.

But if we go by Kabir ji's definition they were all Brahmins. Haha!
The word "Brahmin" in the above shabad was just used to explain to the common brahmin to stop their idol worshiping for specific purposes. And become Gurmukh and worship the supreme brahm.
No this shabad has nothing to do with idol worship. This part sounds right to me.
The way i see the shabad is. During kabir ji time the word brahmin was "proclaimed" to hold utmost ethical values..... So bhagat Kabir ji says this is what a brahmin is ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ . ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥
So basically Bhagat Kabir ji says this is my definition of Brahmin.. one who contemplates on the supreme bhram alone..
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

To my knowledge none of the Bhagats were Brahmins (born Brahmins) and I didn't say any of them were. They were mostly born in lower castes, except for maybe Bhagat Ramanand ji who was a Brahmin (He was Kabir Ji's Guru). In addition there are more than 10 other authors in Guru Granth sahib that are Brahmins.

But if we go by Kabir ji's definition they were all Brahmins. Haha!
No this shabad has nothing to do with idol worship. This part sounds right to me.
Yes. but he did not use it a pro hindu sense or pro brahmin sense. Its been used as an analogy to be gurmukh. That is what am trying to say.


what other 10 bramins are you talking about. please expalin.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Yes. but he did not use it a pro hindu sense or pro brahmin sense.
I am not sure what this means. Kabir ji was a Hindu who was a sikh of a Brahmin, Guru Ramanand ji. But certainly he is reminding Brahmins of what it means to be a Brahmin, and that is to contemplate Brahm. You are correct when you say:
Its been used as an analogy to be gurmukh. That is what am trying to say.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

I am not sure what this means. Kabir ji was a Hindu who was a sikh of a Brahmin, Guru Ramanand ji. But certainly he is reminding Brahmins of what it means to be a Brahmin, and that is to contemplate Brahm. You are correct when you say:
i dont think Bhagat Kabir ji trying to remind the brhamns of what brahman means. i think they know. The word brahmin is just being used as an analogy to mean become gurmukh. Because bhagat kabir ji and bhagat ramannand are not hindus they are gurmukhs.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
2,921
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

i dont think Bhagat Kabir ji trying to remind the brhamns of what brahman means. i think they know.
Well they do know, yes but he's not talking to all Brahmins. It has to do with one's sense of identity. Go back to the shabad and this is what it says: To a Brahmin who associates his identity with being born of Brahmin mother, Kabir ji says that it doesn't mean anything whether you are born of a Brahmani mother. You came the same route I did. What matters is whether you contemplate Brahmn because a Brahmin is said to be a Brahmin when he contemplates Brahm.
The word brahmin is just being used as an analogy to mean become gurmukh.
Yes.
Because bhagat kabir ji and bhagat ramannand are not hindus they are gurmukhs.
They are Hindu gurmukhs. Hindus have had a system of guru-sikh, gurmukh-manmukh, etc long before Kabir ji and Guru Ramanand ji.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Most of hiduism/brahminsim is false when comapred to gurmat. ex. Caste system, idol worship, worshipping devi devatas, etc. but there might be some good thingds


so i dont think its fair when when you call gurmukhs, hindu gurmukh or brahmin.

Na hum hindu na musalmann.

these are just my observations. maybe someone else can also give their views.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Would it be fair to make judgements before studying what you are judging?

Have you read any of the Hindu philosophical works? Have you studied them?
I am talking about philosophies like Advait, Vishishtadvait, Dvait, schools like Vedanta, Samkhya, books like Bhagwad Gita, Upnishads, Puranas, Smirities, etc.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

Would it be fair to make judgements before studying what you are judging?

Have you read any of the Hindu philosophical works? Have you studied them?
I am talking about philosophies like Advait, Vishishtadvait, Dvait, schools like Vedanta, Samkhya, books like Bhagwad Gita, Upnishads, Puranas, Smirities, etc.
nope i have never read those works. Am just going by what Sggs empathizes. And says about there philosophy. And there practices you can see in youtube videos.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

cool i will.
So according to your views Gurmat philosphy is nothing new its just a branch of Hinduism. Yes or no. That is what am sensing please do tell.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

It's nothing new but its not a branch of Hinduism. I don't worry about whether it is new or not I just keep focused and continue to learn.
 

techsingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2012
107
69
Midwest, USA
Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

It's nothing new but its not a branch of Hinduism.
Cool. how does this fit within in your views

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਧੁੰਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਆ।
by Bhai Gurdas ji..
We might be going off topic. Message me or maybe new thread.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 25, 2006
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Re: The Falsehood Of Damdami Taksal-Translated

We have been off-topic for a while now I think. I haven't read the main post yet. Haha!

Satguru Nanak appeared and the fog was dispelled and there was illumination in the world.
 

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