Sikhism The 5 "k's" And Salvation - To Have Or Not To Have

[Balbir27]

Ek Oankaar

Dear Sangat, kindly enlighten me as to why the Kirpan (meant for defending Miri and Piri), today, is acceptably compromised into a miniature form, where it has only token value and has no defensive use. And if that is acceptable without question, then why are not the rest of the "K's" in shortened form also, e.g. hair.
Also, Turban is not mentioned in the "K's". So why is it deemed necessary today for Sikhs? Or is it only for the "Khalsa" (which is another issue altogether)? If one says that the turban is to contain the long hair, then that raises another question - many Sikhs today are bald or nearly bald (like normal humans), so why have a compulsory turban? Unless it is simply a common sense thing by personal choice.

Also Sikhs (or Khalsas) are not the only people on Earth obtaining salvation. Remember that the first brick for the construction of the Durbar Sahib in Amritsar was laid by a Muslim Pir, at the invitation of our Guru. I believe that that Muslim Pir did not have the 5 "K's" although he certainly had the right spiritual attributes approved by our Guru for laying the inauguration brick.

Some people say that "x" is not mentioned in the SGGS, so it makes "x" right.
Other say that "x" is mentioned in the SGGS, therefore it is right.

So, if the 5 "K's" are not mentioned in the SGGS, then what makes them right? And by right, I mean the necessary means to obtain salvation (Is there any other aim?).

Apologies for asking these questions, but I am unable to find the answers in the SGGS and current "diktats" (from contemporary authorities) do not make sense anyway.

Look at Kabir, who is respected in the SGGS and often quoted by our Gurus, who had no "K's" to conform to. Yet he attained enlightenment and salvation. He was uneducated, being denied access to schools, etc.. He was an outcaste by his contemporary society who refused him everything and made false accusations, yet he was God's beloved.

Again it does not make sense about having specific outer garments but ignoring the inner "garments" of thoughts and deeds.

Must one have a uniform to obtain salvation? Or not?

Sat Sri Akal

 

[notanotherloginplease]

5 Kakaars have individual significance, they are kind of reminders, but if one does not understand the significance and wear them just to satisfy ego(I wear kakaars-I am better sikh) then its of no use.

To me:
1. Kesh - Remind us to be happy in what God gives us
2. Kanga- To maintain and take care of what God has given us.
3. Karha- To remind one should never do wrong things with there hands, to do kirat with their hands and to help others with their hands.
4.Kirpan- Save yourself and save others from injustice, be alert against your own mind and ready to fight with it.
5.Kachera- Be strong and control your lust, take care of your personal hygiene.

there could be more to it but if one can reach the stage where he/she can remember these things without reminders, then there is no need of Ks.

Above reminders could be helpful in our spiritual journey but they alone wont take us anywhere.

 

[seekingsikhi]

It's always been my understanding that the first (and I would argue most important) intention of the 5K's was to make it very obvious to anyone observing that the wearer was a sikh. Seems to me the idea here is two-fold. For one, if you're publicly marking yourself as a sikh you will hold yourself (and therefore be held) to a high standard of behavior. The second is that it would let people know that you're someone that can be depended upon for help.

 

[Sikhilove]

Ek Oankaar

Dear Sangat, kindly enlighten me as to why the Kirpan (meant for defending Miri and Piri), today, is acceptably compromised into a miniature form, where it has only token value and has no defensive use. And if that is acceptable without question, then why are not the rest of the "K's" in shortened form also, e.g. hair.
Also, Turban is not mentioned in the "K's". So why is it deemed necessary today for Sikhs? Or is it only for the "Khalsa" (which is another issue altogether)? If one says that the turban is to contain the long hair, then that raises another question - many Sikhs today are bald or nearly bald (like normal humans), so why have a compulsory turban? Unless it is simply a common sense thing by personal choice.

Also Sikhs (or Khalsas) are not the only people on Earth obtaining salvation. Remember that the first brick for the construction of the Durbar Sahib in Amritsar was laid by a Muslim Pir, at the invitation of our Guru. I believe that that Muslim Pir did not have the 5 "K's" although he certainly had the right spiritual attributes approved by our Guru for laying the inauguration brick.

Some people say that "x" is not mentioned in the SGGS, so it makes "x" right.
Other say that "x" is mentioned in the SGGS, therefore it is right.

So, if the 5 "K's" are not mentioned in the SGGS, then what makes them right? And by right, I mean the necessary means to obtain salvation (Is there any other aim?).

Apologies for asking these questions, but I am unable to find the answers in the SGGS and current "diktats" (from contemporary authorities) do not make sense anyway.

Look at Kabir, who is respected in the SGGS and often quoted by our Gurus, who had no "K's" to conform to. Yet he attained enlightenment and salvation. He was uneducated, being denied access to schools, etc.. He was an outcaste by his contemporary society who refused him everything and made false accusations, yet he was God's beloved.

Again it does not make sense about having specific outer garments but ignoring the inner "garments" of thoughts and deeds.

Must one have a uniform to obtain salvation? Or not?

Sat Sri Akal

Because as Sikhs today have become racist, closed minded and fanatical, Noone understands that Truth has existed from the beginning of time and before and that there have been yugs upon yugs in which saints have practiced it.

5ks are supposed to be discipline and reminders and symbolic of silencing the five thieves.

Of course u can practice Truth without them, we become pure from Within.

5ks if donned properly were a fast track and the easiest way to become a sant back in Guru Jis times.

Also good to recognize each other in battle.

 

[RD1]

@Balbir27 I think your post highlights the beauty of Sikhism - that it is not a strict doctrine, that there are many many paths to 'salvation.'

 

[Original]

Balbir Ji

Welcome ! pleasure to have you on board.

The 5 "k's" And Salvation - To Have Or Not To Have ?

Look at it as an inheritance from a father who wasn't materialistically well-off but spiritually rich and left to his children what he possessed and valued the most. It was his "Will" to give his socially orphaned children [us] a sense of belonging, purpose, meaning, social justice and the right to fundamental freedoms in what otherwise, was a "totalitarian" society. His children were under the heavy heal of the Mugal invaders. To that end, the 5k's were forged from the fire of justice as a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Freedom found and Sikh the religion born. The end proclaimed the father, was a state of "pure [khalsa] consciousness", a state of pure being, conflated into the 1, Ekonkar. Furthermore, a codicil setting out specific constitutional arrangements and statutory protocols to anchor the wandering mind from evolutionary ills was instituted to proliferate the spiritual and the intellectual modern man. Transforming as it were, from human to spiritual, thus, His Divine nature.

As for salvation [abrahamic vocab - inconsistent in places with Sikh ideology], it's the elevation of the spiritual being [soul] in the human body to a state of "pure being" or perfection. Simply put, freed from the 5 vices that are otherwise, intrinscally stiffling the spiritual ascent of the soul en route sachkhand. And, since the human body is an empty space, not literally empty , but occupying emptiness made up of non-material intelligence [nothingness], a fertile territory for conflation - anhad shabd sunahi deeya [SGGSJ, 124].

Goodnight

 

[Sikhilove]

Balbir Ji

Welcome ! pleasure to have you on board.

The 5 "k's" And Salvation - To Have Or Not To Have ?

Look at it as an inheritance from a father who wasn't materialistically well-off but spiritually rich and left to his children what he possessed and valued the most. It was his "Will" to give his socially orphaned children [us] a sense of belonging, purpose, meaning, social justice and the right to fundamental freedoms in what otherwise, was a "totalitarian" society. His children were under the heavy heal of the Mugal invaders. To that end, the 5k's were forged from the fire of justice as a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Freedom found and Sikh the religion born. The end proclaimed the father, was a state of "pure [khalsa] consciousness", a state of pure being, conflated into the 1, Ekonkar. Furthermore, a codicil setting out specific constitutional arrangements and statutory protocols to anchor the wandering mind from evolutionary ills was instituted to proliferate the spiritual and the intellectual modern man. Transforming as it were, from human to spiritual, thus, His Divine nature.

As for salvation [abrahamic vocab - inconsistent in places with Sikh ideology], it's the elevation of the spiritual being [soul] in the human body to a state of "pure being" or perfection. Simply put, freed from the 5 vices that are otherwise, intrinscally stiffling the spiritual ascent of the soul en route sachkhand. And, since the human body is an empty space, not literally empty , but occupying emptiness made up of non-material intelligence [nothingness], is a fertile territory for conflation - anhad shabd sunahi deeya [SGGSJ, 124].

Goodnight

Cool post

 

[Balbir27]

I loved your post, "Original" at #6

As for salvation [abrahamic vocab - inconsistent in places with Sikh ideology],

This has given me food for thought. Thank you.
The SGGS (1081-11) says
kavan so muktee kavan so narkaa.
Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?
The "salvation" that I was trying to express sounds like it should be "liberation" (Muktee).

I did have a look as well at Q&A
What Does Salvation/Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ) Mean To You As A Sikh?
but failed to find any illumination more than yours, as far as the correct word is.

So, I would not be wrong to say that "Liberation" means something different for some people. Perhaps the reason, here, may lie in their own interpretation and vocabulary although the intended meaning remains collectively the same.

 

[Original]

This has given me food for thought.

..good ! and whilst you're at it read up on the turban Ezekiel 44:18

The "salvation" that I was trying to express sounds like it should be "liberation" (Muktee).

..correct ! Sikh ideology is to that end, a "liberation" from the fetters of this physical world with salvation implied on the proviso one's a believer therefore automatically protected.

I did have a look as well at Q&A
What Does Salvation/Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ) Mean To You As A Sikh?
but failed to find any illumination more than yours, as far as the correct word is.

...read page 938 of SGGSJ, verse, "jasa jal main kamal nirlam" to understand how Guru Nanak is inviting us to practice "surat shabad" nam simran to liberate. Moreover, page 775 explicitly spells out "jeevat mariya bhavjal tariya", meaning, die whilst alive and meet the true you, the metaphysical you [waheguru]. This is consistent with Sikh ideology, in that, spiritual gurus show us a way to experience the life that exists beyond the death of the body. Sikh martyrs were aware of the secret science of the metaphysical worlds, hence the reason glorified death of the body and never feared. Bhagat Kabir further elaborates on the same, thus: jis marna sa jug darey mera man anand, marna tih he payanga puran parmanand [his guru], meaning, the physical death the world fears I welcome that death for thereinafter I will meet my perfect master.

However, the important thing to remember is that these authors [Banikars] of SGGSJ possessed a divine perspective with which they were able to analyse the mystic trends working behind the visible world, but also, present them on the level of reality. They were able to travel from this world to the next, metaphysical.

So, I would not be wrong to say that "Liberation" means something different for some people. Perhaps the reason, here, may lie in their own interpretation and vocabulary although the intended meaning remains collectively the same.

As I said above a Gursikh is automatically protected [salvaged] so salvation in Sikh theology ought to be substituted with liberation of the soul, meaning, jeevan mukht [freedom from the wheel of 84] and be the immortal you.

Goodnight

 

[Balbir27]

..correct ! Sikh ideology is to that end, a "liberation" from the fetters of this physical world with salvation implied on the proviso one's a believer therefore automatically protected.

I have been pursuing my "studies" and have come across

That Entity (God) exists forever and so do Its Laws of
the Nature/Universe. Neither any offering of any
material article nor any food nor repeating of any
particular word/s (mantra) can please that Entity. Only
one's good deeds will help to reach to the gateway of
salvation - the right way of life.
(page 143, Jap, the verses of Guru Nanak by Chahal & Thind (available on our site)

This Monograph resonates with some of the impressions I have regarding the SGGS whilst opening new doors (by the way).

Given that the authors are giving a "new" interpretation, of part of the SGGS, they still appear to have used the word "salvation".

Now, you say

As I said above a Gursikh is automatically protected [salvaged] so salvation in Sikh theology ought to be substituted with liberation of the soul, meaning, jeevan mukht [freedom from the wheel of 84] and be the immortal you.

Maybe Chahal Ji means "salvation" to be "Mukhti". Which means the word itself does not take precedence over other similar ones.

So, am I splitting hairs, or, shall I take it that these words are simply a means to an end?

 

[Sikhilove]

..good ! and whilst you're at it read up on the turban Ezekiel 44:18

..correct ! Sikh ideology is to that end, a "liberation" from the fetters of this physical world with salvation implied on the proviso one's a believer therefore automatically protected.

...read page 938 of SGGSJ, verse, "jasa jal main kamal nirlam" to understand how Guru Nanak is inviting us to practice "surat shabad" nam simran to liberate. Moreover, page 775 explicitly spells out "jeevat mariya bhavjal tariya", meaning, die whilst alive and meet the true you, the metaphysical you [waheguru]. This is consistent with Sikh ideology, in that, spiritual gurus show us a way to experience the life that exists beyond the death of the body. Sikh martyrs were aware of the secret science of the metaphysical worlds, hence the reason glorified death of the body and never feared. Bhagat Kabir further elaborates on the same, thus: jis marna sa jug darey mera man anand, marna tih he payanga puran parmanand [his guru], meaning, the physical death the world fears I welcome that death for thereinafter I will meet my perfect master.

However, the important thing to remember is that these authors [Banikars] of SGGSJ possessed a divine perspective with which they were able to analyse the mystic trends working behind the visible world, but also, present them on the level of reality. They were able to travel from this world to the next, metaphysical.



As I said above a Gursikh is automatically protected [salvaged] so salvation in Sikh theology ought to be substituted with liberation of the soul, meaning, jeevan mukht [freedom from the wheel of 84] and be the immortal you.

Goodnight

Hi, yeh protection is the wrong word to use. The psychology itself is so powerful that when applied, the truth is revealed to us in all of its glory and there is nothing to be Protected from, All is Him so nothing and no one to fear.

 

[Original]

(page 143, Jap, the verses of Guru Nanak by Chahal & Thind (available on our site)

Pls provide text direct from SGGSJ so that I'm able to read and reflect accurately - thank you. Having said that, both the content and the perspective within which the shabd is sung/recited forms the very basis for an accurate interpretation.

Given that the authors are giving a "new" interpretation, of part of the SGGS, they still appear to have used the word "salvation".

..yes, that's understandable to a point, in that, salvation could be analogous to [in form], but distinct [in substance] from liberation. See below definitions to make sense.

So, am I splitting hairs, or, shall I take it that these words are simply a means to an end?

No, they have a specific function in denoting theoretical thinking. Consider the following:

Definition: salvation - noun:

1. preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
2. deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ [theology].

liberation
1. setting someone free from imprisonment, slavery, oppression; release

Sikh Ideological Perspective

Nanak completely changed the trend of religious life in India. Against the world being regarded as suffering, miserable, horrible and the rest, he called it real and meaningful. He recommended life affirmation and full participation in the affairs of life. Moreover, life an opportunity to meet the Lord and cause for celebration and not outright negation.

However, teleological ideals ought to be aspired to and "liberation" [Jivan-Mukht] from the wheel of 84 must be had is what underpins Sikh Theory of Liberation.

Case in point

Balbir Ji, you'll agree that if we are to understand one another then we have to mean the same by the words we use. Precision and consistency with words is important, particularly when we're translating/interpreting cross-culture information. The origins of the words are not always important, but sometimes they are, and "salvation" was a case in point.

Goodnight

 

[Balbir27]

Dear Original Ji

It’s crystal clear now that “ Liberation” can be the only English word that can be translated from “Mukhti” in order to give the true meaning to the shabads in question, whilst keeping the global message of the SGGS intact. Many thanks for your help.

I'll post the information that you requested later as I've got to go now.
Sat Sri Akal

 

[Balbir27]

@Original
Here's the relevant info:


Page 2 of SGGS (Stanza 4)

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥
Ākẖahi mangahi ḏehi ḏehi ḏāṯ kare ḏāṯār.
People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār.
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?

ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār.
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār.
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||


Monograph by Chahal & Thind, Section One, Page 10:

STANZA 4

HOW TO PLEASE THAT ENTITY?

That Entity is Ever-existing and so Its Laws of the

Universe are ever-existing;

And people think that there are unlimited ways to

communicate with and to love that Entity.

When the devotees ask for something

(that Entity) gives whatever is asked for

Since (that Entity) is bounteous.

(Since all the bounties are from that Entity) then

What could be placed before It

So that I could see Its court.

What words (of praise) shall I utter with my mouth

that on listening to them

that Entity starts loving me?

Answer

During the early morning or at any suitable time, one

should deliberate on the working of the Laws of

Nature/Universe, ordained by the Ever-Existing

(that Entity).

The robe of honor is achieved only

when good deeds are performed.

Consequently, one reaches the gateway to salvation -

the right way of life.

Understand it as if that that Entity prevails

everywhere.


Monograph by Chahal & Thind, Section Two, Page 80:

STANZA 4

HOW TO PLEASE THAT ENTITY?

ਸਾਚਾਸਾਦਹਫੁਸਾਚੁਨਾਇ

ਬਾਦਖਆਬਾਉਅ਩ਾਰੁ॥

Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.

Page 2

That Entity (God) exists forever and so do Its Laws of

the Nature/Universe. Neither any offering of any

material article nor any food nor repeating of any

particular word/s (mantra) can please that Entity. Only

one's good deeds will help to reach to the gateway of

salvation - the right way of life.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Original]

Balbir,

Good shoutout "salvation v liberation" ! You've saved millions from going astray: change the word [ਮੋਖੁ - liberation] of the text and you start changing the story in greater or lesser degree. Classic example is the case to hand, Chahal & Thind. Nanak's game plan is Jivan-Mukht, meaning, liberation from the physical world as opposed to getting away/ salvage from the physical world. If that'd be correct, then Chahal & Thind have erred in their interpretation of ਮੋਖੁ, meaning, salvation.

Goodnight

 

[sukhsingh]

defending Miri and Piri), today, is acceptably compromised into a miniature form, where it has only token value and has no defensive use. And if that is acceptable without question, then why are not the rest of the "K's" in shortened form also, e.g. hair.
Also, Turban is not mentioned in the "K's". So why is it deemed necessary today for Sikhs? Or is it only for the "Khalsa" (which is another issue

Why is it compromised? Would you not fight injustice if you didn't have a full sized kirpan in your hands.. In my understanding using a kirpan or violence to defend dharma is the very last option for a sikh and should that ever be required then the size of the kirpan is irrelevant.. Hypothetically speaking isn't That singh with the smallest of kirpans who stands up despite being fully armed the essence.. When bhai mani singh stripped of Kesh and five ks embody sikhi. Guru tegh bahadur ji whose head was sacrificed by at the end of a sword despite him being defined by his very name by a sword undermine and show the the power of truth.. The sword that beheaded him may have been in the hands of a executioner but through his wisdom the kirpa of the sword that gave him mukti also demonstrated the limitations of the sword if not wielded with righteousness...

A sikh should always be ready to fight injustice and whether they wear a 1 inch plastic sword or a 3 foot real one is irrelevant.. In fact before wearing or being responsible for a real one we should ask if people have the spiritual, emotional strength and character to honour such a divine artifact..

 

[Balbir27]

Sukhsingh Ji

Thank you for your contribution. My understanding is that you basically focussed on one aspect of the OP and asked “Why is it compromised” (the Kirpan) whilst raising a few points.

Let us first ponder over some thoughts over size. I understand you to mean that the size is irrelevant, to which I agree completely in the context of it being a symbol.

However when it comes down to actually using it, then, a bigger proper sized sword would be more appropriate. Let us look at history and see that it was Guru Hargobind who first wore not one but 2 full sized swords in response to his father’s message on the lines of - to let him sit fully armed on the throne and maintain an army. The Sword was to fight to protect.

Guru Gobind Singh’s Zafarnama to Aurangzeb included the lines

“Chun kar az hameh heelate dar guzasht,
Halal ast burden bi-shamsher dast.
Meaning, When all has been tried, yet Justice is not in sight
It is then right to pick up the sword; It is then right to fight.”

Guru Gobind Rai himself used a full sized sword at Anandpur to slaughter a goat, when he inaugurated the Khalsa and became Guru Gobind Singh. When he bestowed the 5 Ks to the Panj Pyare, and said “Khalsa mero roop hai khas”, it goes without saying that he must have given each of them a full sized sword too, to fight to protect, like the Guru.

So it becomes clear that the original sword or kirpan meant a full sized weapon.

Now let us ponder over the purpose of the Sword.

The defence of Piri has historically been the Sword. However most of the world has reached a stage in history where there are national laws and similar structures to defend each citizen’s right to practice their own chosen religion. So, the defence can be through the spoken word and the written word, and if all else fails under our contemporary democratic laws, then perhaps a theoretical situation may arise if another Aurangzeb arises which would require a different defence.” (From another post in another thread)

In the 21st Century, in Democratic countries at least, religious freedom is provided, which negates any necessity for carrying a Sword to defend the religion. (For the UK, see https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/). It gives a defence to carry it for religious purposes only.

When bhai mani singh stripped of Kesh and five ks embody sikhi

I am sure that we all have the greatest respect for a soul like Bhai Mani Singh’s who gave his life but did not give up the 5Ks and all they stood for.

Guru tegh bahadur ji whose head was sacrificed by at the end of a sword despite him being defined by his very name by a sword undermine and show the the power of truth.. The sword that beheaded him may have been in the hands of a executioner but through his wisdom the kirpa of the sword that gave him mukti also demonstrated the limitations of the sword if not wielded with righteousness...

Here I understand you to say that although the sword can be used to end a life, it cannot end the thoughts/the message that that life stood for. I agree with that part also.

the sword that gave him mukti

I am unable to reconcile with this simply because I believe that Guru Teg Bahadur was already a liberated soul before he even took birth on Earth and did not require “Mukhti”.

In fact before wearing or being responsible for a real one we should ask if people have the spiritual, emotional strength and character to honour such a divine artifact..

Thank you for turning the light onto another, perhaps the most important facet of the 5Ks – Remember Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s words “Khalsa mero roop hai khas” when he initiated the Panj Pyare into Khalsas via the Amrit ceremony and gave them the 5Ks that proclaimed to the world that they would aspire to be no different than the Guru himself in thought and deed, and would never shirk in their duties, even to the point of death. (I used the word “aspire” because some failed to, e.g. the Chali Mukhte).

So it is an aspiration, because the Guru did not impose any type of test, apart from the test of ultimate bravery and sacrifice for the first five.

So, I for one, am unconvinced that we should ask of people the question that Sukhsingh presents. The reason is that [1] for those for truly aspire, the question does not matter, for they would say yes anyway, and [2] for those wishing to undergo the ceremony for any other reason, the question also does not matter, for they would also say yes to avoid refusal.

In the end, who has any right to stop someone? Even the Guru did not stop anyone after the ceremony of the First Five.

Everyone in this world has the right to aspire towards Spiritual Liberation. There is no test. There is no policing. The only One for decides in the end is God.

Apologies for any errors.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[sukhsingh]

Sukhsingh Ji

Thank you for your contribution. My understanding is that you basically focussed on one aspect of the OP and asked “Why is it compromised” (the Kirpan) whilst raising a few points.

Let us first ponder over some thoughts over size. I understand you to mean that the size is irrelevant, to which I agree completely in the context of it being a symbol.

However when it comes down to actually using it, then, a bigger proper sized sword would be more appropriate. Let us look at history and see that it was Guru Hargobind who first wore not one but 2 full sized swords in response to his father’s message on the lines of - to let him sit fully armed on the throne and maintain an army. The Sword was to fight to protect.

Guru Gobind Singh’s Zafarnama to Aurangzeb included the lines

“Chun kar az hameh heelate dar guzasht,
Halal ast burden bi-shamsher dast.
Meaning, When all has been tried, yet Justice is not in sight
It is then right to pick up the sword; It is then right to fight.”

Guru Gobind Rai himself used a full sized sword at Anandpur to slaughter a goat, when he inaugurated the Khalsa and became Guru Gobind Singh. When he bestowed the 5 Ks to the Panj Pyare, and said “Khalsa mero roop hai khas”, it goes without saying that he must have given each of them a full sized sword too, to fight to protect, like the Guru.

So it becomes clear that the original sword or kirpan meant a full sized weapon.

Now let us ponder over the purpose of the Sword.

The defence of Piri has historically been the Sword. However most of the world has reached a stage in history where there are national laws and similar structures to defend each citizen’s right to practice their own chosen religion. So, the defence can be through the spoken word and the written word, and if all else fails under our contemporary democratic laws, then perhaps a theoretical situation may arise if another Aurangzeb arises which would require a different defence.” (From another post in another thread)

In the 21st Century, in Democratic countries at least, religious freedom is provided, which negates any necessity for carrying a Sword to defend the religion. (For the UK, see https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/). It gives a defence to carry it for religious purposes only.



I am sure that we all have the greatest respect for a soul like Bhai Mani Singh’s who gave his life but did not give up the 5Ks and all they stood for.



Here I understand you to say that although the sword can be used to end a life, it cannot end the thoughts/the message that that life stood for. I agree with that part also.



I am unable to reconcile with this simply because I believe that Guru Teg Bahadur was already a liberated soul before he even took birth on Earth and did not require “Mukhti”.



Thank you for turning the light onto another, perhaps the most important facet of the 5Ks – Remember Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s words “Khalsa mero roop hai khas” when he initiated the Panj Pyare into Khalsas via the Amrit ceremony and gave them the 5Ks that proclaimed to the world that they would aspire to be no different than the Guru himself in thought and deed, and would never shirk in their duties, even to the point of death. (I used the word “aspire” because some failed to, e.g. the Chali Mukhte).

So it is an aspiration, because the Guru did not impose any type of test, apart from the test of ultimate bravery and sacrifice for the first five.

So, I for one, am unconvinced that we should ask of people the question that Sukhsingh presents. The reason is that [1] for those for truly aspire, the question does not matter, for they would say yes anyway, and [2] for those wishing to undergo the ceremony for any other reason, the question also does not matter, for they would also say yes to avoid refusal.

In the end, who has any right to stop someone? Even the Guru did not stop anyone after the ceremony of the First Five.

Everyone in this world has the right to aspire towards Spiritual Liberation. There is no test. There is no policing. The only One for decides in the end is God.

Apologies for any errors.

Sat Sri Akal.

Paji

It is a absolute pleasure to have read your very considered response.. I think we probably share very many of the same views and the semantics and nuances of our conversation offer the space to progress for me at least a opportunity to challenge my thoughts, interpretations and understandings..

Just to clarify I don't have a problem with people wearing a full sized kirpan, and on a esoteric level believe in the wearing one..

Where I think my thoughts possibly diverge from yours are that I think or perhaps perceive that the attractiveness amongst some of 'us' with the martial traditions, overstates the respect of the kirpan..ie.. To wield a sword are we disciplined and responsible enough to carry such a divine article..

Here is a clumsy anecdote, When I was growing up I remember my cousins and 'sikh' boys wearing a kara who would buy the biggest kara possible because it was a useful tool in a tear up down the pub..

Ironically I was the only person within my family who had Kesh and being the youngest whilst I was enthralled by the machismo I found it hard to resolve the shallowness of it.. Ultimately my respect for the articles of faith and my respect for them led me to stop wearing them.. I to this day don't wear a kara and at the age of 14 had my kes cut.. Which on many levels still greatly troubles me.. I had to ask myself "am I brave enough to stand up to injustice without a sword in my hand" am I wearing these artifacts because they empower me and make me feel better offer me a sense of belonging ?

For me there are levels to this, before carrying a sword is one able to carry a Rabab, does one reject castism, Vandh shako? Righteousness is what differentiates between a sword and a kirpan..

I am also sure that wearing the articles of faith and not respecting the ideals or principles would not be 'SATT'..

Guru gobind singh ji on vaisakhi asked for the 'sis'! He tested a commitment, the five who moved forward and offered their heads in a sense already achieved mukti, for they despite the rumblings in the Sangat believed at that moment, their consciousness at that moment demanded a expression and demonstration of truth.. Ie. Are you in this crowd because it is popular, empowering or do you really believe this is your guru, do you really believe..

Carrying a full sized kirpan for me is a red herring.. Anyone can do it and justify it by saying I want to uphold dharma.. But it for me at least runs a lot deeper than that.. In my opinion in the khalsa tradition the sword is neither for self preservation nor for decoration. It is about integrity and intent, if as bhai mani singh, cut limb for limb, stripped of the five kakkars physically one can still be fearless, a soldier of truth then your very being is the sword and you become the very embodiment of the kirpan.. Many singhs these days are happy to wear guru bestowed bana rage against the injustice of not being able to carry a full sized kirpan but do not have the selflessness to stand against injustice with those who they disagree with, homosexual people, black, Muslim, women etc.. For me I think before we rage against the system discriminating against us for being unable to wear a full sized shastar we should ask ourselves why is that even relevant

 

[Original]

Balbir n Sukh

I'm enjoying reading your exchanges and find favour in both. They are most gratifying to someone like me because not only do they reflect concurrence and approbation, they also offer cash value considerations to the wider Sikh diaspora. Human knowledge grows out of such cosmopolitan views and verdicts. It's people like you who help distroy assumptions and navigate wannabe Sikhs through rational analysis of what may be counted as, true, real and right; culminating into coherent knowledge capable of apprehending the form of the good, great and beautiful house of Nanak.

Without breaking the ebb n flow of the discussion so far, I'm conscious of a missing fundamental that might otherwise yield a fruitful conclusion: the historical imperative.

The figure 5 is imbedded in antiquity and the coressponding articles were incidental in furthering "concept-to-completion" ideology of the first Guru. Nanak was outraged with the way his countrymen were being treated by the invading Mugals. "No way" thought he ! "better to die then to live in shame". Not happy with the way things were, Nanak composed the following shabad to prick the conscience of his countrymen and wake them up for resolve ॥ ਜੇ ਜੀਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਲਥੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਹਰਾਮੁ ਜੇਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਖਾਇ ॥SGGSJ, 142, meaning, if you've lost respect n dignity then all resulting acts, no matter how rewarding, are sinful. He emphasised the importance of living honourably with self-esteem, respect and dignity as inalienable human rights and to "die" if need be, for they're protection. No human being should compromise with ignominious and immodest a living. The net result of Nanak's rebellious idealism gave way to a social, religious and political revolution. The simpleton Hindus who were once succumbed to the mounting pressures of Islam were now merging and coming together to fight the oppressive regime. They began to value and honour the voice of Nanak for it was the call from the most "high" Waheguru. Guru Nanak woke them up and they are now the modern Sikhs. It didn't end there because there is the teleological perspective [SGGSJ, 378], in that, this here world is lilla [playground] and sachkhand [home of the soul] is elsewhere. And it is to that end must all efforts, endeavours and appetites be directed. In so doing, Nanak attached the following, a condition if you like:

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥ SGGSJ, 1412, meaning, if you want to play the game of love then come prepared with your head ready to be sacrificed for life hereinafter. And indeed, in return is a life that can only be described as "wow guru" forever !

So you can see how Nanak the spirit manifests in form as Gobind the great to institute the Khalsa. And, if the Khalsa was to remain impregnable to the ordinary dictates of life, then the 5k's [incidentals or symbols] were mandatory for the safe passage of the soul. These incidentals have latent properties with which those who don't wear them will never know, just as the frog in the Well will never know of the ocean outside.

The 5k's forms part of the Amrit Sanskar, the "nam dhan" [fellowship of the mighty Lord] and given sizeable population of the world are non namdharies is not surprising for if nam dhan lay ready to hand and could be had without too much difficulty than how come majority are without it ? Nanak says, '...all noble things are as difficult as they are rare' and to reaffirm this he composed stanza 38 of Japjisahib, which in short, is symbolic of the perfect man [sacherra].

In conclusion, the 5k's spiritual are analogous to the wedding ring temporal that binds couples together in hereinafter life, symbolising unshakeable faith.

Speak soon, until then - be good !

 

[sukhsingh]

Balbir n Sukh

I'm enjoying reading your exchanges and find favour in both. They are most gratifying to someone like me because not only do they reflect concurrence and approbation, they also offer cash value considerations to the wider Sikh diaspora. Human knowledge grows out of such cosmopolitan views and verdicts. It's people like you who help distroy assumptions and navigate wannabe Sikhs through rational analysis of what may be counted as, true, real and right; culminating into coherent knowledge capable of apprehending the form of the good, great and beautiful house of Nanak.

Without breaking the ebb n flow of the discussion so far, I'm conscious of a missing fundamental that might otherwise yield a fruitful conclusion: the historical imperative.

The figure 5 is imbedded in antiquity and the coressponding articles were incidental in furthering "concept-to-completion" ideology of the first Guru. Nanak was outraged with the way his countrymen were being treated by the invading Mugals. "No way" thought he ! "better to die then to live in shame". Not happy with the way things were, Nanak composed the following shabad to prick the conscience of his countrymen and wake them up for resolve ॥ ਜੇ ਜੀਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਲਥੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਹਰਾਮੁ ਜੇਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਖਾਇ ॥SGGSJ, 142, meaning, if you've lost respect n dignity then all resulting acts, no matter how rewarding, are sinful. He emphasised the importance of living honourably with self-esteem, respect and dignity as inalienable human rights and to "die" if need be, for they're protection. No human being should compromise with ignominious and immodest a living. The net result of Nanak's rebellious idealism gave way to a social, religious and political revolution. The simpleton Hindus who were once succumbed to the mounting pressures of Islam were now merging and coming together to fight the oppressive regime. They began to value and honour the voice of Nanak for it was the call from the most "high" Waheguru. Guru Nanak woke them up and they are now the modern Sikhs. It didn't end there because there is the teleological perspective [SGGSJ, 378], in that, this here world is lilla [playground] and sachkhand [home of the soul] is elsewhere. And it is to that end must all efforts, endeavours and appetites be directed. In so doing, Nanak attached the following, a condition if you like:

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥ SGGSJ, 1412, meaning, if you want to play the game of love then come prepared with your head ready to be sacrificed for life hereinafter. And indeed, in return is a life that can only be described as "wow guru" forever !

So you can see how Nanak the spirit manifests in form as Gobind the great to institute the Khalsa. And, if the Khalsa was to remain impregnable to the ordinary dictates of life, then the 5k's [incidentals or symbols] were mandatory for the safe passage of the soul. These incidentals have latent properties with which those who don't wear them will never know, just as the frog in the Well will never know of the ocean outside.

The 5k's forms part of the Amrit Sanskar, the "nam dhan" [fellowship of the mighty Lord] and given sizeable population of the world are non namdharies is not surprising for if nam dhan lay ready to hand and could be had without too much difficulty than how come majority are without it ? Nanak says, '...all noble things are as difficult as they are rare' and to reaffirm this he composed stanza 38 of Japjisahib, which in short, is symbolic of the perfect man [sacherra].

In conclusion, the 5k's spiritual are analogous to the wedding ring temporal that binds couples together in hereinafter life, symbolising unshakeable faith.

Speak soon, until then - be good !

Paji I totally agree with you in the symbolic carrying of the 5ks. I also believe that nihang singhs absolutely should be allowed to carry full sized kirpans.. What I personally do not think is that we need to agitate politically for the right for all singhs to be allowed to carry full sized kirpans..

Guru gobind singh ji gave us 'bir ras' after the we were given 'shaant ras'.. I believe that in today's world many of us want to jump straight to 'Khalsa'.. Without developing the spiritual intelligence and responsibility that comes with it.. Guru nanak gave us the Rabab and Nam jap, to do sewa and tools to kill our ego.. For me prerequisite disciplines that give the 5ks value..

Carrying the 5ks comes with great responsibility especially the kirpan.. Which symbolises for me a divine force, one with the power to take life.. Those who carry it have rightly so be the most disciplined amongst us.. Analogous to a neurosurgeon.. To be a neurosurgeon one must first dedicate years of learning and study to be given the responsibility..