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dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Note I offered no logic and instead asked you a direct question. The methoed you are using in order not to answer this is well known as a 'strawman' fallacy . You attack an argument that I have not even proposed, claim it as mine and thus try to dodge the actual question I asked.

Intelectual honesty, does this not apply to us Sikhs?

I'm not trying to dodge any question. I am just trying to fathom why people are all of a sudden presuming that Sikhism condones homosexuality amongst its adherents?

So far all I have seen is the argument that silence (on the part of our scriptures and literature) may suggest acceptance (that is unless I am misunderstanding). I was merely pointing out such an interpretation is mistaken in my view. The argument that something not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib or rehats indicates acceptance is plain false. That is all I was saying.



I think that we can all agree that sex with children is wrong, and we can rationalise why this is so. What I ask though is why do you personly feel that homosexuality is also wrong, please rationalise this for me
.

What two consenting adults do in the big wide world is their business. I am not here to judge them. But saying that this is acceptable within a Sikh lifestyle framework is another matter altogether.

I would like to ask, is there a danger, in todays world of mass communication. That we may erroneously project the norms of one culture/way of life onto another? I think this may be happening here.

I think it is right that Sikhs do not attack or vilify homosexuals, but saying that homsexuality is essentially sanctioned by Sikhi is being intellectually dishonest in itself. I don't know where the ultimate answer lies but the panth will probably come to some conclusion in due time....probably. In the meanwhile I am glad that Sikhs are not systematically attacking homosexuals like some groups.

Anyway, I am taking Rupinder's advice:

Moreover there are lot more other more important issues humanity is facing above these matters, such as issue of poverty, issue of natural disasters, issue of equal oppurtunity for females and many more.

I'll leave you all to it.
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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I would like to ask, is there a danger, in todays world of mass communication. That we may erroneously project the norms of one culture/way of life onto another? I think this may be happening here.

I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Dal Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you think the position of Sikhi would be when discovered/ realised through scientific data that homosexuality is part of nature?

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.


KDS ji,

Guru Fateh.

Homosexuality has been part of Indian culture since its existence. Many Kings had little boys for this purpose. I am told that many gays have turned to the Khusra tribes so they could practice that. Khusras are accepted in Indian culture more than in anyother culture. They are part of the folklore. How many do we really know are khusras?

So, there is nothing western about homosexuality. Islam is famous for this too, although it is all underground since the times of the Mughals.

Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.

Freedom has its price.

Tejwant Singh
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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I totally agree with you here.media is sensationalising this issue very much..There is a good chance that
many youngsters will now induldge in homosexual activity to prove that how modern they are.many times when some liberal culture of west is introduced was India the results were no so good.


I am going to answer these last few comments.

KDS ji, I am going to be frank here. And I say this without the type of malice towards Hindus/Hinduism that some Sikh people project. The simple fact is that from what I have seen, Hindu society in general seems to have strong sycophantic tendencies towards the west, including trying to adapt their culture for palatability (apart from caste). Whether there is a relationship with the Brahman ruling classes ideology that they themselves have descended from white people is another matter.

I think the recent decision regarding homosexuality in India (which I am apathetic towards, for the record), is more the result of an attempt to curry favour with the west than any belief that Indian society has. The west to are VERY keen to project their influence right now in a time when it is openly being fought against in many parts of the Islamic world. This would be seen as a propaganda coup for them, demonstrating their influenece when it is in reality waning.
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Dal Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

What do you think the position of Sikhi would be when discovered/ realised through scientific data that homosexuality is part of nature?

Tejwant Singh

I think like every other issue, it would have Sikhs at each others throats arguing like crazy...lol...it's funny because it's so true!

We have no truly accepted "central board" to judicate on such matters (if they are required). The Akal Takhat seems to have a new jathedars every other year. They seem to follow no logic with their decisions right now. End reslut: Sikhs arguing between themselves like they famously do. Even if Akal Takhat did make the right decision in matters, we would still probably larrae amongst ourselves over it.
 
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kds1980

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KDS ji,

Guru Fateh.

Homosexuality has been part of Indian culture since its existence. Many Kings had little boys for this purpose. I am told that many gays have turned to the Khusra tribes so they could practice that. Khusras are accepted in Indian culture more than in anyother culture. They are part of the folklore. How many do we really know are khusras?

So, there is nothing western about homosexuality. Islam is famous for this too, although it is all underground since the times of the Mughals.

I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open homosexuality is western.As far as khusra's are concerned majority of them are castrated ,the practice which was started by
muslim rulers for their harems.Khusra's are not accepted by Indian soceity they live like an outcaste
.My chachi told me a case that a genuine hijra was born is their locality.His/her parents tried to raise her as a girl but in her teenage the news was leaked and hijra 's of that locality came and forcibily took her saying that she does not belong to normal society.


Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.

So you are saying that there is nothing wrong if unmarried people induldge in sexual activity?.Ok then honestly tell me how many Indian men can accept that their wives are Not virgin? i guess very very few
so Indians still cannot get rid of their traditional mentality but want to become westernised
 
Jul 13, 2004
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KDS ji,

Guru Fateh.

Homosexuality has been part of Indian culture since its existence. Many Kings had little boys for this purpose. I am told that many gays have turned to the Khusra tribes so they could practice that. Khusras are accepted in Indian culture more than in anyother culture. They are part of the folklore. How many do we really know are khusras?

So, there is nothing western about homosexuality. Islam is famous for this too, although it is all underground since the times of the Mughals.

Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.

Freedom has its price.

Tejwant Singh


Pederastry and homosexuality are two completely different things.

dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.
 

vsgrewal48895

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Mar 12, 2009
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Dear All,

Here are my two cents on the subject of Sensual Pleasures looked through the glasses of spirituality. Sikh thought is all about spiritual growth with final union with Akal Purkh through living the life of a house holder. This is sought by subjugating lower instincts and developing higher instincts to become a Guru willed (ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ) rather than being self willed (ਮਨਮੁਖਿ) and leading to self destruction. The sensual pleasures are an obstruction to spiritual progress. Thus the sensual pleasures are forbidden in Sikh Faith except for progeny, e.g. here are couple Sabds of Guru Arjan in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri on the subject;

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸੰਗਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਪਟਾਏ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਧੇ ॥ ਜਹ ਜਾਨੋ ਸੋ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਭਏ ਆਂਧੇ ॥੧॥ ਮਨ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਅਰਾਧੇ ॥ ਕਾਚ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਤੂੰ ਬਸਤਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਖੈ ਕੀ ਬਿਆਧੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਬਿਹਾਵੈ ਪਲੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਛੀਜੈ ਅਰਜਾਧੇ ॥ ਜੈਸੇ ਮੀਠੈ ਸਾਦਿ ਲੋਭਾਏ ਝੂਠ ਧੰਧਿ ਦੁਰਗਾਧੇ ॥੨॥ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਇਹ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਾਧੇ ॥ ਦੀਈ ਭਵਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਬਿਧਾਤੈ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਜਨਮਾਧੇ ॥੩॥ ਜਉ ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਤਉ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਭ ਸੁਖ ਲਾਧੇ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਧਿਆਵਉ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਾਢੀ ਸਗਲ ਉਪਾਧੇ ॥੪॥ ਇਉ ਜਪਿਓ ਭਾਈ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤੇ ॥ ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਲਾਥੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੨੬॥

Mithi▫ā sang sang laptā▫e moh mā▫i▫ā kar bāḏẖe. Jah jāno so cẖīṯ na āvai ahaʼn▫buḏẖ bẖa▫e āʼnḏẖe. ||1|| Man bairāgī ki▫o na arāḏẖe. Kācẖ koṯẖrī māhi ṯūʼn basṯā sang sagal bikẖai kī bi▫āḏẖe. ||1|| rahā▫o. Merī merī karaṯ ḏin rain bihāvai pal kẖin cẖẖījai arjāḏẖe. Jaise mīṯẖai sāḏ lobẖā▫e jẖūṯẖ ḏẖanḏẖ ḏurgāḏẖe. ||2|| Kām kroḏẖ ar lobẖ moh ih inḏrī ras laptāḏẖe. Ḏī▫ī bẖavārī purakẖ biḏẖāṯai bahur bahur janmāḏẖe. ||3|| Ja▫o bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl ḏīn ḏukẖ bẖanjan ṯa▫o gur mil sabẖ sukẖ lāḏẖe. Kaho Nānak ḏin rain ḏẖi▫āva▫o mār kādẖī sagal upāḏẖe. ||4|| I▫o japi▫o bẖā▫ī purakẖ biḏẖāṯe. Bẖa▫i▫o kirpāl ḏīn ḏukẖ bẖanjan janam maraṇ ḏukẖ lāthe. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||4||4||126||

They are attached to falsehood; clinging to the transitory, they are trapped in emotional attachment to Maya. Wherever they go, they do not think of Akal Purkh; they are blinded by intellectual egotism. ||1|| O, mind, renunciate, and adore God? You dwell in that flimsy chamber, with all the sins of corruption. ||1||Pause|| Crying out, "Mine, mine", your days and nights pass away; moment by moment, your life is running out. The sweet flavors tempt you, and you are occupied by your false and filthy business. ||2|| Your senses are beguiled by sensual pleasures of sex, by anger, greed and emotional attachment. The All-powerful Architect of Destiny has ordained that you shall be reincarnated over and over again. ||3|| When the Destroyer of the pains of the poor becomes merciful, then, as Gurmukh, you shall find absolute peace. Says Nanak, meditate on the Akal Purkh, day and night, and all your sickness shall be banished. ||4|| Meditate in this way, O Siblings of Destiny, on the Akal Purkh, the Architect of Destiny. The Destroyer of the pains of the poor has become merciful, and has removed the pains of birth and death. ||1||Second. Pause||4||4||126|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 403-1

ਜੇਤੇ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਤ ਤੇ ਡੂਬੇ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਸਾਸ ਗ੍ਰਾਸ ਕੋ ਦਾਤੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਹੀਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਉਡੀ ਬਦਲੈ ਹਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਖਾ ਭੂਖ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਉਨਮਤ ਮਾਨ ਹਿਰਿਓ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੨॥ ਸੁਆਦ ਲੁਭਤ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ ਧਾਵਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਥਾਕੇ ਅਬ ਦੁਖ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਹਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਤ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੪॥੧॥੫॥੫੬॥

Jeṯe jaṯan karaṯ ṯe dūbe bẖav sāgar nahī ṯāri▫o re. Karam ḏẖaram karṯe baho sanjam ahaʼn▫buḏẖ man jāri▫o re. ||1|| Sās garās ko ḏāṯo ṯẖākur so ki▫o manhu bisāri▫o re. Hīrā lāl amol janam hai ka▫udī baḏlai hāri▫o re. ||1|| rahā▫o. Ŧarisnā ṯarikẖā bẖūkẖ bẖaram lāgī hirḏai nāhi bīcẖāri▫o re. Unmaṯ mān hiri▫o man māhī gur kā sabaḏ na ḏẖāri▫o re. ||2|| Su▫āḏ lubẖaṯ inḏrī ras pareri▫o maḏ ras laiṯ bikāri▫o re. Karam bẖāg sanṯan sangāne kāsat loh uḏẖāri▫o re. ||3|| Ḏẖāvaṯ jon janam bẖaram thāke ab ḏukẖ kar ham hāri▫o re. Kahi Kabīr gur milaṯ mahā ras parem bẖagaṯ nisṯāri▫o re. ||4||1||5||56||

Those who try to do things by their own efforts are drowned in the terrifying world-ocean; they cannot cross over. Those who practice religious rituals and strict self-discipline - their egotistical pride shall consume their minds. ||1|| Your God and Master has given you the breath of life and food to sustain you; Oh, why have you forgotten It? Human birth is a priceless jewel, which has been squandered in exchange for a worthless shell. ||1||Pause|| The thirst of desire and the hunger of doubt afflict you; you do not contemplate the God in your heart. Intoxicated with pride, you cheat yourself; you have not enshrined the Word of the Guru's Sabd within your mind. ||2|| Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine, are corrupt. But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints float over the ocean like iron attached to wood. ||3|| I have wandered in doubt and confusion, through birth and reincarnation; now, I am so tired. I am suffering in pain and wasting away. Says Kabir, meeting with the Guru, I have obtained supreme joy; my love and devotion have saved me. ||4||1||5||56|| -----Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 335-15

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
 

Tejwant Singh

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Pederastry and homosexuality are two completely different things.

dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.


Caramel,

Guru Fateh.

I am aware of that. Please read my whole post. What I mean is that it is the acceptance in the Indian culture of people other than heterosexuals and it has been going on for a looooong time despite the religious fervour in the country.

Tejwant Singh
 

dalsingh

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dalsingh. I find it hilarous that you would imply homosexuality is a western phenomenon. It was the British who introduced the anti-homosexuality laws, previous to this there were none in India.

This was not what I was implying at all. Making a big political deal about homosexual rights IS VERY WESTERN now however. Forget the rights of sovereign states when it comes to invasions, but make an issue about protecting homosexuals to portray yourselves as civilised against anti homosexual barbarians. At the same time many of the same governements ignore other abuses around the globe as suits them. Actually through corporations, organisations in the very same countries are complicit in the abuses of many (albeit indirectly) in foreign countries. Which is ignored.

I know India has generally open mindedness to these things as there are kusray/heejray etc. However, policies that normalise such relationships in society is a new thing to my knowledge, at least in Panjab. To me this is one of those uncomfortable moments when two cultures meeting grapple with establishing acceptable norms. In this debate the west seems to dictate to the third world.

Views of westerners are now being transposed on Sikhi with assumptions about what is acceptable and unacceptable being made so flippantly, you would think posters knew the Guru's minds intimately. I'm just suggesting some restraint on thinking we have the answer to the debate on Sikhi's position on homosexuality. People here need to realise that, rightly or wrongly, Panjabi Sikhs, who form the bulk of the community are generally very conservative people on such matters. This will have a strong bearing on any panthic concensus on the matter.

I also imagine this will give Islamists further evidence that the west is essentially set on going abroad and changing peoples accepted cultural practices to their own. That is the political dimension to this.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Kds ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open homosexuality is western.


Would you consider a country like Brasil as Western?


As far as khusra's are concerned majority of them are castrated ,the practice which was started by muslim rulers for their harems.Khusra's are not accepted by Indian soceity they live like an outcaste.My chachi told me a case that a genuine hijra was born is their locality.His/her parents tried to raise her as a girl but in her teenage the news was leaked and hijra 's of that locality came and forcibily took her saying that she does not belong to normal society.

I have heard cases like the one you Chachi mentioned. What do you mean that Kussra's are not accepted in the Indian society? They have a lot of power especially during the weddings and when a child is born in a family, especially when a boy is born. You can not kick them out until you pay them. Many low caste people are also outcast but they do not have the same power.And as I have said that I have heard many Indian gays live in their colonies.


My Quote:
Yes, I agree with you, many boys and girls will start this experimentation. But that is part of anything that has been repressed for so long. Having Sex among young unmarried people in India was a taboo but now it is common.
Your response:
So you are saying that there is nothing wrong if unmarried people induldge in sexual activity?.Ok then honestly tell me how many Indian men can accept that their wives are Not virgin? i guess very very few so Indians still cannot get rid of their traditional mentality but want to become westernised

I am just stating the facts. I am in no position to be the moral judge for anyone or of any society per se. It is not for me to judge others about their morality.

Tejwant Singh
 

dalsingh

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I am not saying that homosexuality is western I am saying acceptance of open homosexuality is western.
Would you consider a country like Brasil as Western?

Fair point. However, Brasil still isn't trying to score cultural/political points from it.
 
May 25, 2009
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Who cares what homo-sexual do! We spend way too much time trying to ban gay marriage of whatever, who cares . they are not harming you in any way so just live to except that there are homo-sexual people in your community and they are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose and you have no right to tell a person what is right and wrong as long as the law is being respected which it is. this is a huge step for India as being civilized but they have a long, long way to go. If you really care that much about what homo-sexual people are doing then maybe you should try their lifestyle if you are so intrested in them. SO FOR THE LAST TIME, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DO!!!! they are not doing anything to you and they exist in every society. maybe india should also try to improve the living conditions of approx 200 million people then we can say they are making steps on becoming civilized
 

dalsingh

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Who cares what homo-sexual do! We spend way too much time trying to ban gay marriage of whatever, who cares . they are not harming you in any way so just live to except that there are homo-sexual people in your community and they are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose and you have no right to tell a person what is right and wrong as long as the law is being respected which it is. this is a huge step for India as being civilized but they have a long, long way to go. If you really care that much about what homo-sexual people are doing then maybe you should try their lifestyle if you are so intrested in them. SO FOR THE LAST TIME, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DO!!!! they are not doing anything to you and they exist in every society. maybe india should also try to improve the living conditions of approx 200 million people then we can say they are making steps on becoming civilized

That's the thing libcan. This is not coming from any genuine concern about gays but political/cultural pressure. India, the place that treats cows better than many humans all of a sudden is concerned about gay rights? Yeah right.

I don't begrudge gay people humane treatment but India seems to have no moral compass of its own. I'm happy for the gays but this kind of stunt is just for public consumption. You still have the most horrendous attitudes towards fellow Indians there but because of this annoucement of gay rights, dumb westerners are like "yey, good old India!"

Meanwhile, mass murder has gone on under our noses and nobody punished.
 
Jul 13, 2004
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dalsingh you have a very unrealistic concept of acceptance of homosexuality in the west. i have already quoted suicide rate statistics so don't try and tell me that homosexuality is accepted. minority groups are/can be very powerful and the governments ALL AROUND THE WORLD do not want any confrontation with them so they give them legal recognition but this does not equal social acceptance.
homosexuality was only legalised in britain just over 40 years ago so to equal culture to law is hilarious. i am from a white british background and i am telling you, white heterosexual men aren't too keen to accept homosexuals culturally. this is why we have gay bars in the uk as open homosexuality is not tolerated in the public sphere. you speak ABSOLUTE nonsense and know nothing about the gay struggle.

what the gay community in india is going through now can be equated to the movement which harvey milk started in america. you might want to watch the film 'milk'. gay people will struggle in every nation and i will have you know it is extremely hard to be gay in western nations such as america due to heavy christian influence on culture.

just because a country's law says something doesn't mean it reflects social or cultural values.

and thank you for calling me dumb, i was very happy that india had done this, scrapping the homophobic laws which britain gave them.
 

spnadmin

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Aman ji

Thanks sooooooooo much for this! At our university we have a degree program in Human Sexuality Education granting both master and doctoral level degrees/also a combined social work and education degree.

This is a good resource for them. I am trying to persuade them to conduct their yearly overseas course in India. They keep going to Canada every other year. I am going to send a few of them this link.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Actually I think they go to Canada to eat in outdoor cafes. But every other person I know in that program has a yearning for Indian food -- so what are they waiting for!
 
the role of sex in a relationship is not just for procreation...as those woman who have gone past the child bearing age still participate in sex with there life long partners. it plays a strong psychological and social role in a persons life and in a relationship (this is the root of the argument...isn't it?)...that when gay people have sex its out of want and when straight people do it is somehow out of necessity (rudimentary beliefs).

'Wowser: an ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warder'. -cj denis

whats else is new?

live and let live people
 

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