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Sikhism And Homosexuality

Jul 13, 2004
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Re: gays and sikhi

Many Vaishnav influences have crept into Sikhism, sex for procreation only is one of them. Sikhism says no obsession with sex, not to abstain from it altogether [this is a form of fasting, which Sikhism is against]. Sex helps strengthen the relationship, and build trust. Sex is good within the boundries [marriage, once or twice a week I guess].

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
 
Jul 13, 2004
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Re: gays and sikhi

S|kH said:
The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to perform.
Perform...? LOL!!
Anyway, I guess you are talking about sexual acts... Well, the bodies of two men, or two women work beautifully together. If they were not anatomically compatible with each other they would stop.

~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
 

Platinum007

SPNer
Jan 17, 2005
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Re: gays and sikhi

Here is my input, God created us with many sinful desires.... but we have to fight them off..
for example.. serial killers have a thurst for killing
many have a desires to get high/drunk
some DON'T have desires to get high or drunk but have a desire to have sex non top with any female/male they come across

same goes for homosexuals... MANY of them arn't REALLY gay IMHO.
I'll give you a blunt example since its late and i don't want to type out a essay... but just looking at the male and female genital area it doesn't take a rocket science degree to know whats suppose to happen... rather, looking at two male penises/vagina's it does not really ad up....

non the less like stated above there COULD possible be a biological medical problem.

I've talked a lesbian on a personal bases who has two children and was once a loving wife to a MAN... from what i gather she just had a fetish.. i spoke to a doctor form Russa and was told for many of the homosexuals out there its just a fetish that was trigered and beleive they are honestly gay, and the oppisite sex just won't "do it" it for them anymore
 

Platinum007

SPNer
Jan 17, 2005
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Re: gays and sikhi

Well, the bodies of two men, or two women work beautifully together
I'm sorry but i don't see my male body working beautiful with another male body .. God created created the female counterpart different from me for a REASON. yes, not just for sexual desires... but procreation...

Sikhism says no obsession with sex, not to abstain from it altogether [this is a form of fasting, which Sikhism is against]. Sex helps strengthen the relationship, and build trust. Sex is good within the boundries [marriage, once or twice a week I guess].
In my opinion if your married and have the desire to have sex and your wife also has the same desires I see NO REASONS as why SUCH desires can not be fulfilled at any level.. after all whats harm could be done?
 
Jul 13, 2004
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Re: gays and sikhi

Platinum007 said:
I'm sorry but i don't see my male body working beautiful with another male body .. God created created the female counterpart different from me for a REASON. yes, not just for sexual desires... but procreation..[
I am not asking YOU to see if your male body works well with the body of another man, I am saying that two men or two womens bodies CAN work well together if their is love and attraction involved.
If God created two genders and hetrosexuality for a reason, then homosexuality must be here for a reason also.

Platinum007 said:
In my opinion if your married and have the desire to have sex and your wife also has the same desires I see NO REASONS as why SUCH desires can not be fulfilled at any level.. after all whats harm could be done?
You are saying that a homosexual man can fulfill his desires with a women or a homosexual women with a man... fair enough, but lets look at it the other way round... if homosexuals were 99% of the population and you were a rare hetrosexual, would you be able to satify yourself sexually and romantically with a guy?

Platinum007 said:
some DON'T have desires to get high or drunk but have a desire to have sex non top with any female/male they come across
I fail to see how promiscuity is directly linked to homosexuality alone.

Platinum007 said:
same goes for homosexuals... MANY of them arn't REALLY gay IMHO.
Homosexual - someone who is attracted to the same gender. Gay - slang for homosexual.
Do you mean that men who have sex with men or men who have sex with women aren't gay? Well, you are right. If there is no sexual attraction to the same gender then they are not homosexual and should not claim to be. However, if they WERE claiming to be homosexual and not anymore, then they never were, they were just CONFUSED.

Platinum007 said:
but just looking at the male and female genital area it doesn't take a rocket science degree to know whats suppose to happen... rather, looking at two male penises/vagina's it does not really ad up....
I would like to know how two consenting adults expressing themselves lovingly does not add up...

Platinum007 said:
non the less like stated above there COULD possible be a biological medical problem.
I believe it is biological yes... but yet there is still no proof for hetrosexuality let alone homosexuality, so for all we know, heterosexuals could be in the wrong and they think they are right due to their sketchy procreation argument which really in my eyes holds no validity.

Platinum007 said:
from what i gather she just had a fetish..
Confusion, not fetish.

Platinum007 said:
i spoke to a doctor form Russa and was told for many of the homosexuals out there its just a fetish that was trigered and beleive they are honestly gay, and the oppisite sex just won't "do it" it for them anymore
We also have a doctor here [DrKhalsa] so you may wish to ask him some questions as he has quite a different view. I say that that doctor was overly smug about his own hetrosexuality and could not accept the fact that others had different desires from him [or that he could not accept the fact that not all women had the possibility of being turned on by him, LOL!!].
 

navsimpson

SPNer
Oct 30, 2004
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Re: gays and sikhi

To me, this is one aspect of the issue that interests me:

What do we have in mind when we ask what the Granth or the Gurus say about homosexuality? I think that, at root, it is a question that presupposes the following:

1) That scripture was laid down in order to guide us in our lives and to guide us to connect with the vibration of God.
2) That deviation from that message would hinder us in that connection and, hence, is wrong.

But, I think that Sikhism has never claimed to be the only truth. It, instead, has suggested that other religions and viewpoints are to be respected. That isn't to say that Sikhism suggests one act in whatever way one pleases. But it does suggest that God and godliness manifests itself in a number of different ways. There is also the question of the social and historical within Gurbani and Sikhism. Let's take the example of the five K's. It would seem that Guru Gobind Singh instituted these as a response to the social conditions of the time - as a way for Sikhs to stand out, be recognised and recognise each other as defenders of the poor, oppressed and less fortunate. If everyone at the time had worn turbans and kadas etc., then the Guru would have said Sikhs should remove those to be recognised. The point is that there is nothing inherent about the five k's as 'godly' - instead they are manifestations of historical circumstance that metaphorically point to godliness.

To link back to homosexuality - if scripture is both metaphorical and historically rooted (which, I must note, doesn't mean it doesn't contain universal truths - it's just that their manifestations suit the time) then how can we look to the specifics of Gurbani to guide our lives in the 21st century. Instead, we must look to the overall message - love, tolerance, respect, hard work, tithe etc. Finally then - how is a loving relationship between two people, whether same-sex or opposite-sex, the opposite of these universal truths?

Navneet
 
Jun 1, 2004
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Re: gays and sikhi

I read this on another resource on internet... the observations are from an independent resource but quite informative...

Sikhism does not accept GAY marriages, and Guru Arjun Dev has rejected them as scandalous.

It is worth mentioning that Guru Arjun Dev had rejected compositions (for inclusion
into Sri Guru Granth Sahib) of Madho Lal and Shah Hussain the SUFI POETS and SAINTS
because there lifestyle was scandalous as they were homosexuals. This is inspite of their
compositions been of high order. I am just quoting and I have no independent research
so please Read Reference 1. So to me it implies that such a thing has been rejected by our 5th Guru, so no question of acceptance arises.

But supporters of PRO Homosexual LOBBY point out to the fact that Maharaja Ranjit Singh
used to pay homage to samadh of these homosexual SUFI poets as RANI MORAN a
MUSLIM was devout of the SUFI poets. Some scholars point out to the fact
that Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s courtiers used to attend Mela Chiragan at dargah
of these SUFI's wearing same type of Orange clothing, and thus imply that they
approved of homosexual practices. REF[2] are attached for you to peruse and
make your own decision. But what Ranjit Singh did or did not do should not have any impact on religious teachings of Sikhs. Moreover Ranjit Singh had put his youngest wife Rani Jindan into his harem at age of 11 or 12 years of age. Other ranis had protested (now we could have pressed paedoplhilia charges against the Maharaja) as a result Maharaja had to bring back the MUKLAWA of RANI Jindan after 3 or 4 years

REF [1]
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99may08/saturday/aboveall.htm
We had a more liberal society than we have today. Though gays and lesbians have
fraternities of their own, they are frowned upon by others. Punjabis, on the
other hand, even granted sainthood to deviants. The classic instance is of Madho
and Lal Hussain or Shah Hussain who became lovers and composed poetry jointly.
They sent some of their compositions to Guru Arjun Dev to be incorporated in the
Granth Sahib he was compiling. The Guru conceded that though their compositions
in praise of God were of high order, but their lives were scandalous. So, he
turned them down. The two were buried alongside. Every Basant Panchmi, Maharaja
Ranjit Singh rode to their grave and made offerings. They are now buried
alongside in a mausoleum close to Shalimar Garden. It has become a place of
pilgrimage for all communities.


REF[2]
EVERY year, on the last Sunday of March, Mela Chiragan or the festival of lamps
is held in Lahore to mark the urs or the death anniversary of Sufi mystic and
poet Shah Hussain.
Maharaja Ranjit Singh was also one of the saint’s ardent devotees. He used to
celebrate the festival of Basant at the tomb of the saint. Once Maharaja
presented basanti siropas (robes of honour) to all his sardars, employees,
munshis, clerks and vakils. Then they were ordered to reach the tomb in basanti
dresses. The infantry was ordered to dress in the same colour and stand on both
sides of the road from the fort to the tomb. Ranjit Singh’s concubine Mauran is
said to have built a mosque near the tomb of Shah Hussain. The present marble-
domed memorial of the saint, situated in Baghbanpura, near Shalimar Gardens,
does not appear to be very old. It is said that after his death in 1008 Hijri
(1599 AD), the saint was originally buried at Shahdara, situated on the other
side of the Ravi. But a few years later, the tomb was swept away by the
overflowing river. Then it was shifted to the present site. Beside the grave of
Shah Hussain, but under the same dome, there is the grave of Madho Lal, the son
of a Hindu Brahmin, to whom the saint was deeply attached. Having become a Sufi,
Shah Hussain bagan preaching in public. A Brahman boy of Shahdara frequented
these religious scenes and showed keen interest in his reaching. This attracted
the attention of the saint, who soon became attached to the handsome youth. This
attachment developed so much and so repidly that if on any day Madho failed to
come, Shah Hussain would walk down to his house. This sort of friendship was not
liked by the parents, who tried to dissuade their son from meeting Hussain, but
to no effect Desirous of separating their child from the Sufi, they proposed to
take him to the Ganges on a certain festival day. When Madho informed the saint
of his impending departure, he was much distressed and bagged the boy not to go
with his parents. However, he promised Madho a bath in the company of his
parents on the appointed day. Madho thereupon refused to accompany his parents,
who proceeded alone to Hardver. After a few day the saint asked the boy to close
his eyes, and when he did so, Madho found himself on the banks of the Ganges
along with his parents who had reached there by that time. After the bath he
discovered that he was back in his house at Shahdara. On their return the
parents confirmed their son’s statement that he bathed with them on the
appointed day. This miracle, says tradition, so much impressed Madho that he
confessed the Muslim faith and became a Mussalman. Another story about Madho’s
conversion is that the attachment of Shah Hussain for Madho was disagreeable to
the parents andcreated suspicion in the people’s mind. But Shah Hussain
unmindful of all would go to the boy’s house when he was prevented from visiting
him. Very often the parents would tell him that Madho was absent and Hussain
would return disappointed. One day when he had been refused permisssion to see
the boy, he walked down to his house for the second time. On reaching the place
he saw people weeping and wailing. On inquiry, he was told that Madho was dead.
The Faqir laughed aloud and walking to the dead body excaimed: “Get up, Madho,
why do you sleep at this hour? Get up and see I am waiting for you. “upon this,
continues the story, Madho jumped on his feet and followed Hussain out of his
parental house, never to return there again, and became a Mussalman. The love of
Shah Hussain for Madho was unique, and he did Madho Lal’s on was known all that
lay in his power to please the boy. Once, seeing his co-religionists celebrating
“Holi” and being desirous of doing the same, he bought some gulal (pinkish-red
powder) and threw it on Hussain. Shah Hussain at once joined him in the fun.
Basant or the spring festival, like Holi, was also celebrated each year by Lal
Hussain to please Madho. Madho Lal Hussain was held in great respect by the
people, and the Hindus, though they seem to have turned Madho out of their fold,
could not master their credulous beliefs in the supernatural miracle-performing
power of the saint and esteemed him just as much as their Muslim brethren. Masho
Lal Hussain died at the age of 53, a comparatively early age for a saint. His
death occurred in A. H. 1008 (AD 1593) at Shahdara, where he was duly buried. A
few years later as predicted by the saint, the grave was swept away by an
overflow of the Ravi. Thereupon Madho exhumed the corpse and carried it to
Baghbanpura, where it was buried with pompous formalities. After his death Madho
was buried by his side. Latif describes the tomb as follows:- “The tomb is
situated north of the village of Baghbanpura. There are signs of two tombs on a
high platform. One of Madho and the other of Shah Hussain, the actual tombs
being in an underground chamber. A wall surrounds the platform with a gateway to
the south. Between the platform and the surrounding wall is a space left for the
devotees to go round, - the platform being lined on all sides with lattice-work
of red stone. North of the enclosure is a tower in which is reverentially kept
the impression of the Prophet’s feet (Qadam-I-Rasul) and to the west is a
mosque. This mosque was constructed by Moran, a wife of Ranjit Singh. Lal
Hussain appears to have had friendship among the holy men of his time. He was an
intimate frien of Chajju Bhagat who, the tradition says, called him Shah Hussain
for the first time. He used to meet Guru Arjun whenever he came to Lahore.
 

S|kH

SPNer
Jul 11, 2004
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We Are PENN STATE!!
CaramelChocolate said:
Is there any solid scriptural proof for these arguments that Guru Arjan Dev was homophobic?
Hm, homophobic is rather strong don't you think? Read the article again. Guru Arjan Dev ji accepted them as humans, and even stated their work was excellent. You calling him homophobic because he told them their lifestyle was scandalous, is like a drunkard who can write brilliant poetry telling Guru Nanak that he was stupid when it came to "intoxicants".

Guru Nanak acknowledged all "sinners" as human, and even accepted their work, but he NEVER claimed there lifestyle was RIGHT or told people to FOLLOW it, does this make Guru Nanak a bad person too? Guru Nanak put down the brahmins for their method of practicing, but still acknowledged their work in other fields and regarded them as humans.

Stating someones lifestyle is wrong does not mean you hate them as a person and/or their work in other fields.

You'll never get me to agree that homosexuality is right, but that does not mean I will not regard you as an intelligent human being, and respect your works or study in mathematics, poetry, art, or other fields. I will treat them same, and treat you as a human, yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct. Does that make me homophobic? Does one have to be completely willing to accept homosexuality to not be deemed homophobic? (honest question).
 
Jul 13, 2004
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S|kH said:
Yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct. Does that make me homophobic? Does one have to be completely willing to accept homosexuality to not be deemed homophobic? (honest question).
Answer to both questions - yes.

S|kH said:
If homosexuality is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights. But until then, I do believe its a personal choice, and stand against that choice.
Well what can I do to prove to you to argue that I have not chosen to be gay? Whatever I say you will deny it due to your personal slant towards homophobia. Even when science says that it is NOT a choice you will not believe it. So there is no point of me trying to convince you as you are too stuck in your ways.
 

ravisingh

SPNer
Jan 21, 2005
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You'll never get me to agree that homosexuality is right, but that does not mean I will not regard you as an intelligent human being, and respect your works or study in mathematics, poetry, art, or other fields. I will treat them same, and treat you as a human, yet I will never accept homosexuality is being right or morally correct.
I find this to be an odd statement. You seem to be linking what you like or dislike as being the basis for whether or not something is moral or immoral. Can you please dilineate in clear terms what makes this a moral issue and why your dislike of it warrants a reason for its inlcusion among other immoral acts?

I for one extremely dislike when someone eats something while talking on the phone. Although I still respect people and appreciate their works in mathematics ... etc. If you can't find any other reason other than that homosexuality is "icky" to you as the basis for your belief in its immorality, you are on very shaky moral ground.

I find that many Sikhs confuse notions brought in from other religions (ie. that homosexuality is something that God cares about, etc.) as relevant to our own faith. Sikhism does not posit an angry vengeful god that rains fire and brimstone down upon those that displease him --in Sikhism God is not to be feared but loved. Any and all moral issues are to be considered within a wider context than just I think God would be angry. Rationality and worldliness are key components of the Sikh moral system --hence the stress on worldy and honest living.

Aman Singh, thank-you for providing the information you did in the above post. I have never seen it before --you have a real talent for finding such information! I for one find it highly dubitable that we can conclude that Dhan dhan Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji rejected the writings of some Sufis because of homosexuality. First, there is no evidence from that time period that indicates why particular tracts were not included in the Adi Granth and I find it incredibly arrogant of people to suggest that they know how the Guru thought/his reasons for finding not in accordance with the message of Sikhism. In fact, those that are most emphatic about this issue (I am not singling anyone out here) have as the basis for their entire argument that they know what the Gurus/God wants and provide no reasons for why this is. Second, if sexual ethics of this nature were so important to the tenets of Sikhi we wouldn't have to try to reinterpret obscure stories such as these to get our answers.
 
Jun 1, 2004
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Aman Singh, thank-you for providing the information you did in the above post. I have never seen it before --you have a real talent for finding such information!
Dear Ravi Singh Ji, i believe and you would agree too that its very important to explore any topic in hand from each perspective or angle. When i first read this piece of article (as i already mentioned from an independent resource), i was entrigued and so shared with you all. I meant no offence to anybody.

Please continue with this fascinating discussion...

Warm Regards to everybody.
 

ravisingh

SPNer
Jan 21, 2005
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Aman Singh said:
Dear Ravi Singh Ji, i believe and you would agree too that its very important to explore any topic in hand from each perspective or angle. When i first read this piece of article (as i already mentioned from an independent resource), i was entrigued and so shared with you all. I meant no offence to anybody.

Please continue with this fascinating discussion...

Warm Regards to everybody.
Aman Singh Ji,

I appreciate and applaud your approach and efforts! I'm sure that all would agree that you provide wonderful resources and endeavor to facilitate further discussion. My statement was a sincere one was not meant to be taken sarcasticly. I have a passion for discussing philosophical issues and I suppose that my style of argumentation may be taken to be hostile --it is not.

All the best and thank-you once again Aman Singh Ji for providing such a facilitative forum for discussion.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das here want to say what he come accross from Nihungs


The persent day mainstream tat Khalsa radical are trying to prove that since history homesxuality or lesbainism did not exist.

This is wrong.There are mention of homosexulty in two of the triya chritatr of Dasham Granth.Even in puran there was male monkey(Perhaps a race of human) who wanted to seduce Balram borther of Krishana.

So yes in genral homesxultiy may not be liked by majority but Nihungs(www.sarbloh.info) do tolrate it in there dals.They are not gays but do not hate gays.

God is in gays and Gays indulge in act of homosexulity by will of God.Prostitute,Lesbians.Mastrbution ect. all are realty.Only hypocrate tend talk of idealism.All human can get salvation as it is in hand of God.So hating such class like gays or {censored} or any such thing is not unique to Sikhism but has come in it by elfluence of protestant church who was main culprit of christianising Panth.In fact both Brahmanical annd hypocrate evenglist are of same type.

so Das read what Kala Afghan sahib has wrote due to his thinking more like thaT of say elder generation which oppose homesexuality and he is making reference from Adi Guru Darbar or Guru Granth Sahib ji in the sense of lust attached to it.

Well lust is there which come on us by will of Akal.No one is born homesxual.It is by circumstances.If a homosexual does not want to get out if it then we must not force him.And even then by mercy of Akal he can get salvation.Nihungs at least say that and they are the true Khalsa since the time of Guru as they claim.

although there are various medicines or yogaic excersise which can reduce sex drive as done by Nirmalas and Udasis but Gurbani say that if by reducing sex drive one was to salvage then hijra(Third gender of ennoch) would have got automatic salvation.So in them it is use in speacial cases.

Anyway das has seen many of his brother who follow Kala Afghana Sahib and do talk of morality in Public ,for Dial;ogue with Islam in Public but in close door they are same Bad to others or even worse then Das.and not only that they also may talk vulger.

Guru does not like duality.At one place we expect him to be good to Muslim but at the same time we condem Islam and holy Kuran.It is like protestant thing of free will,ie Our faith is the best and rest is just garbage but it is free will of other weather to be christian or not.

Sikh Panth recoganise that any human irrespective of Faith,Race or Region or say sexual habit can get salvation as Salvation is not in Hand of Man but in the hand of God Akal.

Say a gay who is unable to come out of his habit of homosexuality yet he rembers the name of God.One day in this life or the other life God will unit him with God's self.Das is aware that at one stage homosexu ality can not be overcome at least by present medical sceince.Yoga or Ayurveda can only help if person concerned want or is willing to leave.

As a Sikh Nihungs can make him (a Gay) a Nihung but das can beg for them on there behalf that other Sikhs must not hate them and allow them to come to Sangat and for worship as they as a human need Gurmat like any other human being.

And to gays das can say even you are homosexual like many muslim in India do maaary as Muslim over here do.Else one day in your west say UK,Child born out of there hetrosexualt marrige will outnumber you and throw you out of UK making UK an Islamic republic.If Majority of UK want Islam Das will support there views.But the thing is that there are could be homosexuality may be Islamic repulics also.

It is a truth and we can not run out of it.Das is not a Gay nor an Hetrosexual even.But das still can not say that gay is anti Panth or Anti Sikhism.But may be as Kala Afghana sahib are may married but not gay so he can say that he is a good Sikh so person like him can be the same.Or he is the role model of Sikhism.

Diversity does exist in Panth.What is good for me can not be for other.And for other what is good can not be for me.

Jeeo Jant Sabh Tudh Opayee
Jit Jit Bhana {censored} Til Laye
Tera Keya Sab Kichh Hoi
Kuchh Nahi hoiu Asara Jeeyo
Tu Mera Pita Tu Hai Mera Mata
Tu Mera Bandhap Tu Mera Bhrata.

Das could not have done exact letter transfer of this Verse from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but translation does fellow.

All Creature you created
Wherever (you) wanted thereonly you engaged them
What all is happening is/what Happens is your(Doing)
Our doing does not occur(as you do) Lord
You are my father,You are my mother
You are by family you are my brother.

Das will try if get a chance to accomodate gays or others in Nirmala order also Soul that counts and body or its act may not count.

Sab Mai Jot Jot Hai Soi Tis De Chanan Sabme Chana Hoi.There is light in all,That(God) is that light,By which all are enlightened.

Das is reapeating thaat Nihung aknowledge and tolrate home sexualtiy do not hate it but does not endrose it either.Gurmat is against the lust be it homesexualiy or by Hetrosexualy.And homesexulaity may not always by by lust.Say if a young child is sodmised by elder and since then till age of thirties indulges in homosexuality thinikng it as normal then can not leave it.There is non of his fault.

Kala Afghan Sahib were refering to holy Bible and holy Kuran which oppose sex of any kind by Lust.so does Dasham Granth.This is there till 'we do',I Am or Hau(am) Mai(i) is there.Das is sorry but das refuse to consdir him judge in this matter.We just can not close our eyes like a pigeon to this truth of present time.
 

ravisingh

SPNer
Jan 21, 2005
76
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Ottawa
I completely agree with you that Homosexuality has been in existance for a long time and in every society. In fact most people forget that most of the early western philosophers, artist, great thinkers, etc. were in fact homosexual.

Very interesting Vijaydeep Singh to hear what the Nihung view on this issue would be. I'm glad that you point out the Nihungs tolerant nature --people often don't realize this and I myself was shocked to see the extent of their tolerance in my limited dealings with them. I for one would love to hear more about the views of this and/or similar groups any articles/resources you can provide would be most welcome.

I would lilke to point one thing in your post that I find problematic. Current scientific evidence does suggest that homosexuality has a strong genetic basis and is not a choice that someone can be convinced to change.

CC
I'm sorry the article does not correctly display on my computer otherwise I would provide some sort of an outline for you.

Regards to all,

Ravi Singh
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh!

Das think that Kala Afghana Sahib ji are trying to prove by quotes of Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is OK to marry and have hetroe sexuality but in the meantime when we talk of homesexuality it is related with lust.Das 's can read Gurmukhi but has difficulty to understand punjabi as he is a Bihari.

And he also talks about Ayurveda.Das is very much with heart supporting Kala Afghana Sahib but Brain has a few question.What he worte can prevent a Sikh to become Homesexual but what about oothers who are laready or want to be like that to be a Sikh.(this is his interpetation of Gurubani)

Gurbani is truth and forever.But what about this interpetaion there are a few questions:-

If homosexultiy is a lust then what about using conraceptive?

Does a person who is impotent male or female or seterlized or casterised or Third Gender they can not have family life or Sex?

Or persom after menopause?

Wait a bit and what about a person loosing potency after accident or by force?

Then he talks about Ayurveda or old hinduism oppse mastrubution or lust it is correct.Even homeopath Dr Vidyaleankar from Gurukul Kangri also said the same.

But Allopathy or Greek or Unanai diifer a lot.

Das wants that champion purest must give five refereance from Guru Granth Sahib Ji,Which state that Ayurveda is corrrect to oppse homeopathy(In Fact Ayur Veda was there before Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji were sent to World by Akal).And let him give Five refrenaces from Same holy Guru of us which state that Allopathy(Which was devoloped a bit more After the Avtar of Our eternal Guru Granth Sahib Ji) which has different opinion about homesexuality or mastrabution is wrong.

Das also belives in other Two Holy Scripturres.But Das is only using the style of Kala Afghana Sahib as he used to make fun of Mahpoorush of Damdami Taksal(DDT) and Akhand Kirtani Jatha(AKJ).

He is exploited and hated by Thakedars of SGPC as he is fearless and does not tolrate nonesense and if he is in SGPC then crrupt people will run away.
But AKJ or DDT may not be currpt.

Anyway by his stlye of imaginatve logic Das can precive that in old world when we use to live in jungle or still some animal live.As strong male use to dreive away weaker male to take control of harem or large gruop of female.So weaker males may have become homesexual.

Actualy there in link brother Babber Sher Ji have given Das finds him(Kala Afgana Sahib) talking like some from AKJ.

By the way when Indian Puranic or old political model of 400 charetors of female and 5 of male in Triya Charitar can not be of Guru as they are Brahmanincal then how can Kala Afghan Sahib Talk of old Indian Medicine which was also used by Brahmins ie Ayurveda.Problem here is that he is yet to come out of ghetto of Indian standard or Punajbi one.

Sikhism is for all cultures and using Indian Standard of Brahmnanism or Punajbi of Jattism are trying to contain it.

Das is sorry to write this but Das is not giving his personal views but here he is thinking as if he is a gay from west.Sikhs has to be with weak.Gays in west are hated by many old standard people.Das think that Sikhs can try to let them attain spritual uplift(This Does not means to make them Amrit Dhari) by let them learn Gurmat and come to Sangat.

Whith that let alone homesexulity they may try to leave hetrosexualtiy at one level as then only worship of Akal will be there and no worldly thing.

CC is child of 16 years.He is in wrong impression that Guru was homophobic,It is in fact some of our present day Sikhs who try to paint Guru like that as they themselves are like that.Guru had no phobia.All were welcome to Gurudwara to worship God and thus serve humans.CC might have got sprem production for lat 6 or 4 years.And he is enjoying the love of another human body.But sex drrive or human body both decay one day.

Only Name of God is eternal.Soul will reamin.And Soul is God.
 
Jun 1, 2004
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http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/legal/bill280305.htm

April 3, 2005

Rights are rights are rights
Members of [Canadian] Parliament speak for equal marriage

The debate over The Civil Marriage Act (Bill C-38) resumed in Parliament's House of Commons on March 21, after a month-long break. There were two days of debate before parliamentary resess. Parliament will show its will on April 12 when it is expected to vote against a Conservative Party amendment that would ressurrect discrimination against gays and lesbians.

Following is the speech by

Mr. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga-Brampton South, Lib.):

"I want to take this opportunity to talk about my personal experiences with religion, specifically the Sikh faith. As a proud Canadian born in Toronto and raised in Mississauga-Brampton South, I grew up in an environment where I never fit the status quo. At a young age I decided to keep my hair and recall the moral support provided by my school teachers. I remember playing soccer and feeling mortified because I was the only one with a turban. I thought my turban was going to fall off when I
headed the soccer ball, but the coach always went out of her way to make me feel part of the team. I remember the first time I wore my distar, also known as the turban, to high school and recall the compliments I received from my classmates. I also remember taking amrit in university, and being praised by my professors and the student body for making an outward commitment to practise my faith ...

"I remember I was in high school and Mr. Dhillon was going through much undue hardship for wearing a turban and wanting to join the RCMP. I recall that Sikhs at that time came together and looked to the charter to protect their identity and, may I add, an identity that did not conform
to traditional norms. I also recall when the courts decided that Mr. Dhillon was allowed to wear his turban as an RCMP officer. At that moment, I was not only proud to be a Sikh but I was proud to be a Canadian, and live in a country where I was treated as an equal member of society, knowing full well that if my beliefs were ever challenged, I would have the charter to protect my rights. Therefore, based on my experiences and historical decisions by the courts, I have full faith that the charter has demonstrated time and time again the importance of protecting religious freedoms ...

"The issue today is not of civil marriage. The debate here today is not whether to change the definition of marriage. It is being changed in seven provinces and one territory. The issue is something much greater than that, the charter. I am a byproduct of the charter and live in a country where everyone is treated the same and where individual freedom is the cornerstone of our society."
 
Jul 13, 2004
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S|kh said:
If homosexuality is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights.
S|kh said:
You'll never get me to agree that homosexuality is right
I find these statements to be quite contradictory, especially when your justification for homosexuality being forbidden in Sikhism is weak to begin with.

The story about the homosexual couple's writings not being included in the Guru Granth Sahib is FALSE. The Gurus never rejected anyone. Even the writings of barbers and butchers [depending on your view about meat] are included in Guru Granth Sahib ji.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

Dear CC well Das can give youn a link www.sarbloh.info

and from thier you may get other links.



So far only these Nihungs guys from your own UK do respect and accepts Gays.



And Lesbians as they se God in them also.Das knows Baba Nidder Singh Ji personally also.



You can contact him or Nihung Teja Singh Ji and they will help you a lot in this matter.(Das may not agree to them in all matters).
 
Jul 13, 2004
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Sat sri akal Vijaydeep - I have seen this site before but will look at it in detail. But WHY od they have pictures of Hindu bhagwans on it?
 

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