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Sikh Rehat Maryada - False Arguments, Fake Translations And Dubious Agendas

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Dalvinder Singh Grewal

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Some people have the knack of creating controversies for the heck of it without realizing that they are on to create confusion and damage to the well established institutional system. Important is not pointing fingers; important is giving the right solutions. I have found no right solutions in the controversy. In Malaysia conclave two years ago it was well accepted that SGGS will be the Supreme scripture of the Sikhs. Why this controversy now. Why go by a few ignorant who refuse to learn?
 

sukhsingh

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Some people have the knack of creating controversies for the heck of it without realizing that they are on to create confusion and damage to the well established institutional system. Important is not pointing fingers; important is giving the right solutions. I have found no right solutions in the controversy. In Malaysia conclave two years ago it was well accepted that SGGS will be the Supreme scripture of the Sikhs. Why this controversy now. Why go by a few ignorant who refuse to learn?
With all due respect @dalvindersingh grewal ji I don't really understand the critique you have.. When you say well established system what do you mean .?

BTW I have no thoughts about the actual topic as such but am interested in what it is that validates and provides ballast to you giving SRM as published by the SGPC such a honoured position ?
 

Ishna

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I don't speak for Mr Grewal, but my own 2c is that without the SGPC's SRM, especially in this day and age, there is nothing to stop anyone from saying that anything at all is Sikh custom and pushing that upon others as the "Sikh religion".

The SRM as it stands does include you as a Sikh, @sukhsingh even though you haven't received amrit sanchar. But what if the SGPC SRM didn't exist and instead some other organisation claimed that you are not a Sikh because you haven't received amrit, or because you don't wear the 5Ks? So that legally you're not recognised or counted as a Sikh by governments anywhere in the world, let alone India?

I've said it before, but however imperfect it is, the SGPC's SRM is crucial to preserving Sikh legal religious identity. Without it, Sikhi could be re-shaped into whatever some other people want, which is exactly what the OP organisation is trying to do by nefarious means.
 

sukhsingh

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I don't speak for Mr Grewal, but my own 2c is that without the SGPC's SRM, especially in this day and age, there is nothing to stop anyone from saying that anything at all is Sikh custom and pushing that upon others as the "Sikh religion".

The SRM as it stands does include you as a Sikh, @sukhsingh even though you haven't received amrit sanchar. But what if the SGPC SRM didn't exist and instead some other organisation claimed that you are not a Sikh because you haven't received amrit, or because you don't wear the 5Ks? So that legally you're not recognised or counted as a Sikh by governments anywhere in the world, let alone India?

I've said it before, but however imperfect it is, the SGPC's SRM is crucial to preserving Sikh legal religious identity. Without it, Sikhi could be re-shaped into whatever some other people want, which is exactly what the OP organisation is trying to do by nefarious means.
How do you reconcile na koi hindu na mussalman with a document that seeks to and necessarily entrenches in a pseudo legal document
 

Ishna

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How do you reconcile na koi hindu na mussalman with a document that seeks to and necessarily entrenches in a pseudo legal document
How do you reconcile calling yourself a Sikh at all with "na koi hindu na mussalman"?

I think you fail to grasp the level of attack against Sikhs as a distinct community in India and the very real necessity of governance from a religious standpoint even internally to the religion with multiple "denominations" (for lack of a better term).

There's also the angle that for some (most?) people Gurbani doesn't provide ready instruction. It's not like the guidance in Gurbani is arranged in a list like the 10 Commandments. The SRM provides summaries that area easier to pick up in the first instance.

From the spiritual standpoint I agree with you - the SRM is not required, Gurbani is enough, but then, the person who follows only Gurbani doesn't look like your average Sikh, do they? They are just a person, with any hairstyle, no turban, no kara, not identifying as anything else but a student of Guru Sahib. But in the reality of the world we live in, the SGPC's SRM is very important.
 

sukhsingh

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How do you reconcile calling yourself a Sikh at all with "na koi hindu na mussalman"?

I think you fail to grasp the level of attack against Sikhs as a distinct community in India and the very real necessity of governance from a religious standpoint even internally to the religion with multiple "denominations" (for lack of a better term).

There's also the angle that for some (most?) people Gurbani doesn't provide ready instruction. It's not like the guidance in Gurbani is arranged in a list like the 10 Commandments. The SRM provides summaries that area easier to pick up in the first instance.

From the spiritual standpoint I agree with you - the SRM is not required, Gurbani is enough, but then, the person who follows only Gurbani doesn't look like your average Sikh, do they? They are just a person, with any hairstyle, no turban, no kara, not identifying as anything else but a student of Guru Sahib. But in the reality of the world we live in, the SGPC's SRM is very important.
Just to be clear I see a distinction between sikh and khalsa.. You seem to seeing them as one of the same?

It's a interesting insight..

So to 'preserve' sikhi we must abandon one of its key principles.?
 

Ishna

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You'll need to address some of my points to progress the conversation as it's feeling a bit one sided to me.
 

sukhsingh

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You'll need to address some of my points to progress the conversation as it's feeling a bit one sided to me.
Sorry please clarify what questions you have.. I'd be happy to oblige . But I thought I was clear.. I don't think being a sikh requires any outward physical identifiers.. I accept that people have them and that they are noble endeavours for what they represent but strictly speaking I believe the prescribed nature of keeping kes 5ks etc are part of khalsa Maryada..

I kind of see the sikhi as a metaphor in the way SGGS has bani of guru's and Bhagats expressed in different regional musical approaches poetic form yet one coherent expression.. A space where pluralism exists without being consumed by the desire to define . It also why I think gurbani sangeet is important as it also expresses that same metaphor.. I think using a SRM document is actually very dangerous to sikhi as it is how religious identity is 'constructed'. We start with the desire to define and codify and hence we create pseudo legal documents to bring order and make us all feel better yet inadvertently before we know it we have a religion divorced from its keys principles..
 

Dalvinder Singh Grewal

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The point here is on the supremacy of SGGS which is being put to question. It is well evidenced that it
was Sri Guru Gobind Singh who had installed SGGS as the Guru Eternal just before his joining the
eternal light. If we are Sikhs we have to accept it with honour. However, there are many who try to
compare Dasam Granth at par which is not acceptable. The simple reason is that if The 10th Guru wanted
this, he could have surely done this himself. But incidentally, Dasam Granth has not been accepted so.
To create controversies again and again on this point is for the sake of creating controversies. This
was my point.
I had not commented on rehat Maryada. This too was prepared by great Sikh scholars and it took around
20 years for revising and vetting, hence it is not an off the cuff affair. A similar effort may be
needed from scholars of that status like Dr. Teja Singh who deliberated upon it. It is not every
body's cup of tea.
let us keep the historical facts in mind. if there are minor mistakes these may of spelling etc. which
however can be corrected through suggestions to SGPC, rather than making these as the point of
controversy.

Dr. D S Grewal
 

sukhsingh

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The point here is on the supremacy of SGGS which is being put to question. It is well evidenced that it
was Sri Guru Gobind Singh who had installed SGGS as the Guru Eternal just before his joining the
eternal light. If we are Sikhs we have to accept it with honour. However, there are many who try to
compare Dasam Granth at par which is not acceptable. The simple reason is that if The 10th Guru wanted
this, he could have surely done this himself. But incidentally, Dasam Granth has not been accepted so.
To create controversies again and again on this point is for the sake of creating controversies. This
was my point.
I had not commented on rehat Maryada. This too was prepared by great Sikh scholars and it took around
20 years for revising and vetting, hence it is not an off the cuff affair. A similar effort may be
needed from scholars of that status like Dr. Teja Singh who deliberated upon it. It is not every
body's cup of tea.
let us keep the historical facts in mind. if there are minor mistakes these may of spelling etc. which
however can be corrected through suggestions to SGPC, rather than making these as the point of
controversy.

Dr. D S Grewal
I've always understood the dasam Granth to be part of the sikh framework but I SGGS to be first amongst equals if you like?
 

sukhsingh

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Let's be honest here. Sorry to burst your bubble. There is nothing called Dasam Granth in Sikhi
Tejwant ji you haven't burst my bubble .. Firstly clearly within the sikhi there is a document which is called dasam Granth.. If there wasn't you would not have made a post about it.. What we are talking about is it's legitimacy and veracity as to whether it should be considered within the sikh lexicon or body of work..

I personally am agnostic to the work as I know very little about it, it's authorship or its authenticity and legitimacy..

I have only ever recognised the primacy of SGGS ji, however it would be obtuse to say that it is not a part of sikhi since the fact we are talking about it, it necessarily is a area of debate which shapes and influences peoples idea of sikhi..

When I said earlier that I always saw it as one of three granths I was merely stating that for those who do accept its validity recognise it..

Personally I find the whole technocratic, absolutist dogmatism that surrounds the debates within sikhi as interesting because for me they illuminate the desire of humans, of any persuasion to be reductive.. I'm more interested in the cultural politics of why these things develop importance..

On a personal level I find it very hard to even get past mul mantar and understanding the wonderment and truth. I've spent most of my life from a young age simply trying to digest the extraordinary perfect encapsulation and expression of ek Ongaar..

What I do know is that much more learned people than me accept it as part of their Maryada and many others disregard it..

To date my opinion is that, (which admittedly is based on limited knowledge) is that I'm prepared to accept for Khalsa Akali Nihang singhs who through my experience is that they accept it as part of their Maryada ..

So no you haven't burst my bubble as there was no bubble to burst..

If ek ongaar is truth.. Knowledge is satgurprasad ..

That’s my humble opinion
 

Tejwant Singh

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Firstly clearly within the sikhi there is a document which is called dasam Granth.. If there wasn't you would not have made a post about it.. What we are talking about is it's legitimacy and veracity as to whether it should be considered within the sikh lexicon or body of work..
Please post the document of what you claim in its entirety so we can learn from your wisdom regarding the subject. Thanks.
 

sukhsingh

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Please post the document of what you claim in its entirety so we can learn from your wisdom regarding the subject. Thanks.
I don't have a link neither do I have the document in its entirety..

Do you have a link to the document in its entirety that you rejecting.. If their is no such document and it's existence is a figment of my imagination then what is it you are objecting to..

Please don't mock me, you do yourself a disservice. I'm trying to be open and honest, I'm on this forum to learn and discuss..

As I have clarified I really don't have any position in this debate ..

What is interesting is that you have such strong views about a (implicitly expressed in your challenge to me) imaginary document..

Very curious
 

Tejwant Singh

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Do you have a link to the document in its entirety that you rejecting.. If their is no such document and it's existence is a figment of my imagination then what is it you are objecting to..
Of what and what am I rejecting?

Please don't mock me, you do yourself a disservice. I'm trying to be open and honest, I'm on this forum to learn and discuss..
I beg your pardon? I never mocked you. Please use your Sikhi bravura and post "the mockery" that you falsely claimed.

As I have clarified I really don't have any position in this debate ..
It is unwise to talk from both sides of your mouth. Your position is quite clear. You talked about a valid document about Dasam Granth but you are unable to provide it.

What is interesting is that you have such strong views about a (implicitly expressed in your challenge to me) imaginary document..
You are all over the place now. You claim to know more about others than about yourself which is a shame.
When you claim something in your post and then, when asked to provide the proof, you copped out for the reasons only known to you and lastly, stop acting like Ms. Cleo.

One of the basic principles of Sikhi is giving the benefit of the doubt rather than claiming to know more about the others than about yourself. Let's give it a try to practice that here if you do not mind.
Shall we?
 

sukhsingh

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Then your claim is false and dishonest. That is not what Sikhi teaches us I am afraid.
Please elaborate, as to say my claim is a false statement :
1. What claim is it that I have claimed ? I'm genuinely not sure what statement I have made that it is that you are calling false
2. I would agree that sikhi teaches us to be true. And a way to discern truth is to reject false hoods.

I'm open to explore this. Are you?
 

sukhsingh

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Wow..

Sorry to burst your bubble
I beg your pardon? I never mocked you. Please use your Sikhi bravura and post "the mockery" that you falsely claimed.
Sikhi bravura...

What I do know is that much more learned people than me accept it as part of their Maryada and many others disregard it..

To date my opinion is that, (which admittedly is based on limited knowledge) is that I'm prepared to accept for Khalsa Akali Nihang singhs who through my experience is that they accept it as part of their Maryada ..

So no you haven't burst my bubble as there was no bubble to burst..

If ek ongaar is truth.. Knowledge is satgurprasad ..

That’s my humble opinion
And there was me trying to reach out..
 

Tejwant Singh

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1. What claim is it that I have claimed ? I'm genuinely not sure what statement I have made that it is that you are calling false
Here it is.
Firstly clearly within the sikhi there is a document which is called dasam Granth.
2. I would agree that sikhi teaches us to be true. And a way to discern truth is to reject false hoods.
I agree.

I'm open to explore this. Are you?
Of course, I am because a Sikh learns, unlearns and relearns with every breath till the last one
 

sukhsingh

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One of the basic principles of Sikhi is giving the benefit of the doubt rather than claiming to know more about the others than about yourself. Let's give it a try to practice that here if you do not mind.
Shall we?
That was my point.. I don't know that much about the authenticity, legitimacy or veracity of the 'dasam Granth'.. So I give it the benefit of the doubt.. But their is a (contested) book called the dasam Granth which whilst I don't know enough to explicitly take a position.. It is by the fact we are discussing it a part of the sikh discourse. .
 
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