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Should One Always Tell The Truth?

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Truthful living or living in truth is not just a matter of telling the truth....it is living in this world whilst knowing the 'truth' of this world...

if one is immersed in a computer game where they become one with it...and think the game is reality...then the game is played in a certain way...the character is attached to other characters...the character doesn't want to lose it's life...etc etc etc...

If you know the Truth...that its a game...that you are way more than just that character that was in the game...you will play that game in a different way...you may not care too much about collecting all the items available...or holding onto your life by all means..etc etc...

you would be living in truth....because you know the truth, you have experienced life outside of the game...you know there is life outside the game...
 

Sikhilove

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May 11, 2016
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Truthful living or living in truth is not just a matter of telling the truth....it is living in this world whilst knowing the 'truth' of this world...

if one is immersed in a computer game where they become one with it...and think the game is reality...then the game is played in a certain way...the character is attached to other characters...the character doesn't want to lose it's life...etc etc etc...

If you know the Truth...that its a game...that you are way more than just that character that was in the game...you will play that game in a different way...you may not care too much about collecting all the items available...or holding onto your life by all means..etc etc...

you would be living in truth....because you know the truth, you have experienced life outside of the game...you know there is life outside the game...

Good post :)

We're meant to embrace and enjoy life in this khel, in the here and now. At the same time were meant to live the laws of nirboah and nivair and the tenants of Truth.

The residents of earth during the Satyug had it right, they lived truthfully.

This is now a blessing of a time to be alive on earth as the Kalyug ensures that when we detach in truth detachment, we are able to detach all out with an even greater light.

Only a few stars are needed to light up the sky, to teach others out of the bullshit that 99 percent of the world residents are engrossed in, currently for the overwhelmingly most part, it's the blind leading the blind.
 
Sikhilove,
I agree with much of what you write, but there are instances where you become persistent and overbearing; like now for example, on this truth and thing.

Generally speaking, we should always speak the truth, but there may be times when we are morally obliged to lie. Classic example of which I cited in another thread, the maniac neighbour wanting to kill your dad and how might you deal with it [ring a bell ?]. Now, if you were to tell the truth and inform the whereabout of your father, jo public would've cried out "murder", hence consider you highly immoral to have had your dad killed simply because one ought to tell the truth. Telling the truth is indeed virtuous and an obligation which one should uphold provided no other overriding factors are present.

Gdnite -

Hi

I just copy and pasted quotes from Gurbani, which is truth.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Jul 20, 2012
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Your suggesting that he did actually cut their heads off?

That's the biggest mystery! We will never know will we? ;) but in the end it doesn't matter. The symbolism is apparent either way. That of death and rebirth, and this symbolism used in initiation is not seen in only Sikhi, but in many different spiritual paths!
 

Pathfinder

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Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth



Harry ji,

Just the other day I was watching a movie, 'the invention of lying'. Then it just struck me. It is just the mortal clan that uses this and we use it to justify our insecurities, greed, fear , glorification etc.

The truth always existed....period.

.. it's just the lies that we invented for our own need.. to add to our already long, tragic list of frailties.

We justify these lies with noble intentions to convince othes and ourselves that we did right.

Regarding scenarios, we are humans remember... we can justify anything.
You can convince me that the glass is half empty and an hour or so later that it is half full.

We have endless scenarios of Sikh Martyrs to inspire us on the upholding of the truth.

Say we find the 'genesis scenario' then what. Do we justify or glorify the need to lie?, using the example. I doubt it bodes well for 'seekers of truth'.

We pilfer, bleed every gift of Wahegueu's to us - even earth and nature, then join the sangat to pray the truth that earth, nature is a mother to us. How much hypocrisy runs in our blood. NOT ALL but Most of us anyway - at least myself, that I can shamefully admit.

Why is a lie ever and even an option or a nessesary lie a quest? . We are not short on inspiration from our Guru ji's to our endless list of Martyrs.

I once had a similar debate on board the vessel with a scientist Greg. He stated that lying was a disease, was an addiction. He said he treated both of his quits similarly. Just quit for the next 5 minutes. Then another five and so on.

Slowly we can try to remain lie free for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year like quitters quit smoking. Not one puff ever is a smoking quitters mantra. Not one lie ever should be for lies. No matter how strong the urge or the justification to lie, you Don't have an option, remember. Slowly he stated -truth becomes a habit. I was dumbfounded. Isn't that so simple and straight forward.

Once we rise above the lies and embrace a truthful existence then we will worry about the next step. Truth and lies cannot coexist.

Like there is no imperfect truth, there is no nessesary lie. Imperfect truth if such a thing does exist - it is nothing but a lie. Truth is simply the truth.

I just feel a emptiness, an vacuum - in my soul - each time I used one of the endless 'unavoidable lies' and I ignored Wahegueu's warning and went ahead as I felt it was 'nessesary'. Today I look back and don't see a proud sailor taking those desicions. I see a bloated, egoistic, lost, sorry figure attempting to play king who was smart in twisting the lies. I feel sorry, ashamed for falling into the trap of 'nessesary lies'. It's a bit too late though. I am just glad that I have been given a second chance.

Just my two cents (must learn to post smaller replies i realise, lol).

I must admit... I steal a lot of inspirations from your threads/posts out on the forum.

WGJDK, WGJDF.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Just the other day I was watching a movie, 'the invention of lying'. Then it just struck me. It is just the mortal clan that uses this and we use it to justify our insecurities, greed, fear , glorification etc.

Not all lies stem from the above, living in truth means just that, and when one has found the truth, one should keep it to oneself, life becomes a dance to the truth, mere words are insignificant, it is actions and consequences that are important, thus when in a bad situation where a tactical advantage can me made than the supreme truth, and the consequences need to be considered before the conceptual sin of the spoken word is considered, could the truth be so far away from a simple spoken word that it has to take into account circumstances and the moment. Does a man watching his wife of leprosy still reply that she is still beautiful? that watching her fade away is more painful than death itself, where is the truth then? what form does it take? is it simple enough to transfer to the spoken word? Is living truthfully the same as not lying?

Say we find the 'genesis scenario' then what. Do we justify or glorify the need to lie?, using the example. I doubt it bodes well for 'seekers of truth'.

I personally think that seeking the truth has little to do with words, I am not suggesting that we live a life of lies, although in essence we do, what I am saying is that lying in itself has little to do with whether one lives in truth.

Why is a lie ever and even an option or a nessesary lie a quest? . We are not short on inspiration from our Guru ji's to our endless list of Martyrs.

I have raised this point before, some of our Gurus were battle tacticians, do you think that any subterfuge was never given to our enemies? If you could explain that I would be grateful, as it would help my own understanding.

I once had a similar debate on board the vessel with a scientist Greg. He stated that lying was a disease, was an addiction. He said he treated both of his quits similarly. Just quit for the next 5 minutes. Then another five and so on.

constant lying is a bad thing, that is not what I am talking about, on the whole, I speak the truth, sometimes I am optimistic, and yes, sometimes I do lie, however, if I am going to lie, I make sure the person knows I am lying, like, for instance, telling a new partner how many women were before, a nervous laugh, a long pause, a long errrrrrr and then errrrr 2. Logic and discretion and the search for the truth, and doing everything in the name of the truth, to me are cornerstones of Sikhism.

Slowly we can try to remain lie free for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year like quitters quit smoking. Not one puff ever is a smoking quitters mantra. Not one lie ever should be for lies. No matter how strong the urge or the justification to lie, you Don't have an option, remember. Slowly he stated -truth becomes a habit. I was dumbfounded. Isn't that so simple and straight forward.

I spend most of my time in that state, in my past, I spent 24/7 in that state, for some time, it nearly destroyed me, it made me realise no one likes the truth, and a true state can only be had with others of a similar disposition. Does a rapist deserve the truth in the action of rape? or a thief? or a murderer?

The inevitable happened at Chamkaur. The Mughal army still thought that the Guru was alive and was in the fortress, and that his escape, during the night, was only a hoax. They, therefore, decided to attack the fortress all at once. There were only five Sikhs and after a short and fierce battle all of them were killed. As the Mughal commanders entered the fortress they found the Kalghi of the Guru and thought that they had killed him. So they took the head with the Kalghi to the Governor of Sirhind. But it was not the Guru's head. It was Bhai Sant Singh who wore the Kalghi and he resembled the Guru.

uchhdapir.jpg
By now the Guru had passed safely through the enemy's territory and reached the forest of Machhiwara. The Mughal armies were searching for him all over the forest. It was at this difficult consent that two Muslim friends, Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan disguised the Guru as "Uchh Da Pir" (a reputed Muslim saint of Uchh village) and carried him reverently in a curtained plantain to safety. After four week's journey the Guru finally reached Raikot in Ludhiana District. Rai Kalha, the Chief of Jagraon and Raikot received the Guru warmly. The Guru stayed there for some time. For Rai Kalha's services the Guru gave him a Jug and a sword which his family have kept all through these centuries. (In 1947 Rai Kalha's family went away to Pakistan and took the souvenirs with them)

This story was copied from Gurmat.info, I do not know the site, it is the story I interested in, which is , as I am sure you will agree quite a common one. Was our Guruji more interested in truthful living or the truth per se?

Once we rise above the lies and embrace a truthful existence then we will worry about the next step.

then you can not operate in today's society, it would only work on a desert island or if you had solitude, or if the people around you had also risen.

Like there is no imperfect truth, there is no nessesary lie. Imperfect truth if such a thing does exist - it is nothing but a lie. Truth is simply the truth.

How does that statement reflect the above story?

I must admit... I steal a lot of inspirations from your threads/posts out on the forum.

I am humbled and honoured, you have a gift of writing, the way you use your marine experience to mirror life, and the way it is written brings back fond memories of 'zen and the art of motorcycling maintenance'
 

Pathfinder

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Sep 5, 2016
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Harry ji,

At sea, all I have known is dictatorship. Democracy at sea is the surest and fastest way to sink a ship. Taking orders without question comes naturally to us sailors. To us, the Master or the Captain is all knowing, the one who puts self between harm and his crew/vessel. He knows and does best for his crew. Having lived in such a conditioned atmosphere for 24 years faith in Waheguru Ji is easy to sustain for us sailors.

: I don't know how to quote selected parts of your message so I'll just try answering in order. I shall copy your questions.

Does a man watching his wife of leprosy still reply that she is still beautiful? that watching her fade away is more painful than death itself, where is the truth then? what form does it take? is it simple enough to transfer to the spoken word?

- A woman only grows more beautiful the more one loves her. If beauty is not just skin deep and she is truly loved then damn leprosy or cancer, nothing can stop the beauty radiating within her from growing.

Is living truthfully the same as not lying?

- Not lying is an effort, the voyage.
Living truthfully is a way of life, the cumilation of the above.

what I am saying is that lying in itself has little to do with whether one lives in truth.

-Truth and lies are like dark and light. Both cannot coexist together.

- If the Guru ji used any subterfuge it doesn't change anything as far as I am concerned. The Guru ji did a million other things that I cannot ever do and so this is just one of them. The Guru ji sacrificed his sons, his family too. Can I do that? No, so there is no way I will even dwell on that.


then you can not operate in today's society, it would only work on a desert island or if you had solitude, or if the people around you had also risen.

- Trust me, I know how difficult it is to stand out in a crowd. Sikhi is not easy,but then no one said it is too. Yes, I am feeling isolated already. And I am still not an Amritdhari too. Believe me freinds avoid me like I have the plague.

How does that statement reflect the above story?
- I have no counter, he is my Master and I am his crew. He knows best. I have never questioned any Captain nor have I been questioned as a Captain. Some mysteries are better left unsolved.

A sailor has very few questions. You are the opposite of me and I like that. I hardly question things. You dig deep and yes, I love your approach. Meticulous, inquisitive, seeking the details. At sea you would have scared me seriously - with your hunger to probe for details. But here, it's refreshing and informative.

'zen and the art of motorcycling maintenance'

- I swear I would rant about bikes endlessly if this were any other forum. You are the nth person to quote this book. Riders swear by this. I have yet to read it unfortunately.

Oh yes, I hate cars. Why, because they are everything opposite of what a bike is. One must not feel the imperfections on the road. The temperature inside the car must remain static always, to hell with the weather outside. Feel the rain, sacrilege, close the moon roof. Hey Joe, we built an auto gear shifter for you too. Power this power that. Flick this switch. Remote access, omg, the lengths car makers go to make you feel you are doing anything but commuting is sickening. Massage seats, power windows, cruise control, power locks, sunroof, etc etc.. it's pathetic honestly.

Hop onto a bike. Kick start the monster. You can feel the piston rods knock under you. You are one with the bike now. The throttle is like an extension of your very being. Your wrist controls the fury of the beast. You can smell the love in the exhaust.

omg, buried bikers don't die, do they..lol.

Take care Harry ji
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

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I am only suggesting that without evidence you cannot say whether such incidence occurred or not. You cannot call it pretence till you have evidence to say so.

Well I suppose we should start with miracles, do you believe in them? do you believe that our Gurus were capable of miracles?
 
At sea, all I have known is dictatorship.

Maybe that would have been good for me, I have been free most of my life, free to make some pretty bad mistakes, and cause quite a lot of pain for myself and others around me.

Democracy at sea is the surest and fastest way to sink a ship. Taking orders without question comes naturally to us sailors. To us, the Master or the Captain is all knowing, the one who puts self between harm and his crew/vessel. He knows and does best for his crew. Having lived in such a conditioned atmosphere for 24 years faith in Waheguru Ji is easy to sustain for us sailors.

We differ slightly on our outlook on Waheguruji, I have no faith whatsoever in such, the only faith I have is that Waheguruji will be constant. I ask nothing, I try and do instead. For me, it is a simple case that you have the basic skills to survive, here are the rules, off you go. I have faith in myself in being able to walk a path that is guided by Waheguruji, nothing more. That guidance comes through acting as per the SGGS, rather than candles, full moons, meditation, prayer or even faith. Is faith coming to a crisis and knowing you will be ok because of Waheguruji? You will have to define faith for me.

: I don't know how to quote selected parts of your message so I'll just try answering in order. I shall copy your questions.

Its very easy, outline the part of text you wish to reply to, you should then see a quote tab, click on it and the text will appear in your window with quote marks round it, reply underneath.

- A woman only grows more beautiful the more one loves her. If beauty is not just skin deep and she is truly loved then damn leprosy or cancer, nothing can stop the beauty radiating within her from growing.

I admire your outlook, but the truth is that no man escapes from life into this state completely, there is always doubt, anger, frustration, there will always be hard times, impossible times, always times when the question, 'Do I still look beautiful?' cannot be answered truthfully, for we are everything, not just the pure.

Not lying is an effort, the voyage.
Living truthfully is a way of life, the cumilation of the above.

so by not lying, does truthful living come naturally?

Trust me, I know how difficult it is to stand out in a crowd. Sikhi is not easy,but then no one said it is too. Yes, I am feeling isolated already. And I am still not an Amritdhari too. Believe me freinds avoid me like I have the plague.

Why do your friends avoid you? because you tell the truth?

I have no counter, he is my Master and I am his crew. He knows best. I have never questioned any Captain nor have I been questioned as a Captain. Some mysteries are better left unsolved.

I disagree, given that events happened many many years ago, all we have is the litmus test, the very foundations of Sikhism mean that in my mind, one has to assume the Gurus set an example to us by their actions, they did not strike me as 'do as I say, not as I do' type people. I don't like mysteries, my background is computers, things have to be logical, things have to add up. A man who lauds equal sexuality, is unlikely to write about the complete opposite, A man who lauds truthful living by way of complete and utter honesty to all, is unlikely to wish to deceive even his enemies, so I must accept that there is more to truthful living than just telling the truth.

A sailor has very few questions. You are the opposite of me and I like that. I hardly question things. You dig deep and yes, I love your approach. Meticulous, inquisitive, seeking the details. At sea you would have scared me seriously - with your hunger to probe for details. But here, it's refreshing and informative.

I scare people seriously outside of Sea, I question everything, yes, and I will tell you what is the inspiration behind that, the very first Amar Chittra Katha I read about Guru Nanakji, I loved it, why do we do this? why do we do that? Why do I have to wear this, or say that? He was my kind of guy, thank you for your kind compliments.

I swear I would rant about bikes endlessly if this were any other forum. You are the nth person to quote this book. Riders swear by this. I have yet to read it unfortunately.

Read it, you will love it, really, its your sort of book, and your writing is very similar to Pirsig's.

Oh yes, I hate cars. Why, because they are everything opposite of what a bike is. One must not feel the imperfections on the road. The temperature inside the car must remain static always, to hell with the weather outside. Feel the rain, sacrilege, close the moon roof. Hey Joe, we built an auto gear shifter for you too. Power this power that. Flick this switch. Remote access, omg, the lengths car makers go to make you feel you are doing anything but commuting is sickening. Massage seats, power windows, cruise control, power locks, sunroof, etc etc.. it's pathetic honestly.

I have always loved cars, but that was cars 20 years ago, when they had character, when they smelt and looked like a car, a MK1 Range Rover, or a 1979 450SE, I have some great memories of cars, but today, with speed cameras, speed limits, and the congestion on the roads, its not quite the same, I have very vivid memories of driving a young lady to paris for the weekend in an old XJ6, in those days you could drive round Paris, park where you wanted, right next to the tower, and then break all speed records driving back to London. Makes me feel old thinking about it!

Hop onto a bike. Kick start the monster. You can feel the piston rods knock under you. You are one with the bike now. The throttle is like an extension of your very being. Your wrist controls the fury of the beast. You can smell the love in the exhaust.

I am just sorting out my licence as we speak :), I did try and get fitted for leathers yesterday, but I ended up looking like a fat Batman...
 

Pathfinder

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Sep 5, 2016
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Harry ji,
For the quote post procedure, thank you.

Maybe that would have been good for me, I have been free most of my life, free to make some pretty bad mistakes, and cause quite a lot of pain for myself and others around me.

That's the beauty of freedom, one can choose, you own the success and failure of yourself. By the way my good man - you are the most imperfect dictatorial subject I have interacted with, lol. And the irony is this - I admire the person you are and your approach.

I have faith in myself in being able to walk a path that is guided by Waheguruji, nothing more. That guidance comes through acting as per the SGGS, rather than candles, full moons, meditation, prayer or even faith. Is faith coming to a crisis and knowing you will be ok because of Waheguruji? You will have to define faith for me.

You put the message across - simple lines in a profund and arresting manner.

Faith to me is complete surrender to the Master. The ship of my life can endure any storm as long as I keep the hull intact by living in the teachings of the Guru ji. The storm is nothing but worldly temptations. The Gurudwara is a 'port of refuge' for maintenance, repairs or damage control and prayers are like the SOP (Standard operating procedures) manuals that have guidance on how to run the vessel most safely and efficiently.

Do I still look beautiful?' cannot be answered truthfully, for we are everything, not just the pure.

What matters is does she feel beautiful?. Do you make her feel so?. That is raw eternal beauty. Beauty is felt, like love is.

so by not lying, does truthful living come naturally?

I presume so. That's the basis of my quest. If I am wrong so be it. I would have a journey as close to a lie free existence that I could as a bonus.

Why do your friends avoid you? because you tell the truth

I was the last guy to enter a Gurudwara. I would miss God on my bike rather than miss my bike in a Gurudwara - kind of guy. But here I am - trekking away over my high and endless doubts/insecurities. That is blashemphy, lol. I could set a bad example and all their worldly achievements may seem meaningless like mine do. They would know best. Not my speaking the truth, their fear of realising the truth is why they avoid the Gurudwara and those who enter it.

A man who lauds truthful living by way of complete and utter honesty to all, is unlikely to wish to deceive even his enemies, so I must accept that there is more to truthful living than just telling the truth.

Would you believe me that most old sea dogs at sea can smell a storm, can feel it??. You can feel the depression very slowly embrace you. As a cadet I did not understand the captain. Let me start my cadetship with Waheguru, maybe I'll learn the why later. Truthful living and living truthfully !! The only thing that matters Is the truth.

If you feel strongly about anything you must accept that and not question it. If you feel that is right, it is. If truthful living beckons your soul so be it. You would still be living truthfully, right. Like love - Truth is always felt, before it is spoken.


Oh yes, I grew up ashore in a socialist era. I don't remember any family dinners, it was always a khandaan dinner, with my chachi, mami, etc etc and some neighbours too joining in. It felt like we lived in a big Gurudwara.

I guess nostalgia is the first sign of approaching old age, lol.

Batman come in - this is the Phantom, lol.
 

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