Shabad Vechaar - We Get That We Wish

[Ambarsaria]

Veer Ji If the above is true than any mythical metaphor that helped you learn something must be true or as real too.

Veer sp ji wrong.

Falsehoods and myths can help you learn about truth without being true in themselves.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer sp ji wrong.Falsehoods and myths can help you learn about truth without being true in themselves.

Veer Ji May my false post help you learn about truth without being true itself.

Happy New Year, Satkartar ,Gur Var Akaal

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veer Ji May my false post help you learn about truth without being true itself.

Veer SP ji, yes of course. Much adrenalin gets released sometimes in response to negative versus positive.

Who knows it all! We all know some, pretty hard to know what and how much we don't know.

Have a great NewYear. All the best of health, happiness and wealth for 2012.

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug

 

[japjisahib04]

Re: Shabad Vechaar- We get that we Wish

Gyani Ji
The word Ganika has frequently been used for prostitute as a metaphor, Prostitute means the one who has sold off his conscience so it could be either man or woman. If we refer prostitute to woman only then I am scared we would be doing injustice with gurbani presenting it biased towards one gender.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni

 

[Ambarsaria]

Re: Shabad Vechaar- We get that we Wish

Gyani Ji
The word Ganika has frequently been used for prostitute as a metaphor, Prostitute means the one who has sold off his conscience so it could be either man or woman. If we refer prostitute to woman only then I am scared we would be doing injustice with gurbani presenting it biased towards one gender.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni

japjisahib 04 ji with all due respect it is wrong for us to try to create a sanitized meaning when such may or may not be the context in which it may have been written.

I have never heard of word ਬੇਸਵਾ ( Irealize you are referring to a different word Ganika but I don't know if that is part of sabads under consideration) being anything other than a female prostitute or a female associated in like habits. If we lose context, I believe we would lose major messages of Gurbani and this is one of the thrusts of the Grammar/literal pushers. As this will de-link us forever from the writers and their context and myth busting metaphors.

Humbly submitted for considerations.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Veer sp ji wrong.

Falsehoods and myths can help you learn about truth without being true in themselves.

Sat Sri Akal.

Ha ha..the exact same argument my kids use on me to let them watch series on Tv like..Criminal intent, Criminal Minds, Law and Order - Special victims Unit , Hustle etc..thye LEARN so much about Criminal minds and crime from "UNTRUE" or made up imaginary fictional episodes....so YES..Imaginary FICTION does still work..as it did in Guru Jis time...

 

[japjisahib04]

Re: Shabad Vechaar- We get that we Wish

ਬੇਸਵਾ [/URL]( Irealize you are referring to a different word [/FONT][/COLOR]Ganika but I don't know if that is part of sabads under consideration)[/I] being anything other than a female prostitute or a female associated in like habits. If we lose context, I believe we would lose major messages of Gurbani and this is one of the thrusts of the Grammar/literal pushers. As this will de-link us forever from the writers and their context and myth busting metaphors.

Humbly submitted for considerations.

Sat Sri Akal.

S. Ambarsaria Ji,
My concern is whether woman don't conspire or hatch a conspiracy to cheat other. So does it mean this pankti does not apply to womans and they have immunity.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Mohinder

 

[Ambarsaria]

Re: Shabad Vechaar- We get that we Wish

S. Ambarsaria Ji,
My concern is whether woman don't conspire or hatch a conspiracy to cheat other. So does it mean this pankti does not apply to womans and they have immunity.
Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
Mohinder

Veer japjisahib04 just some comments.

Veer ji your observations are worth noting and your thoughts are noble. However we need to recognize the application of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the right context. So the comments regarding "prostitution" are addressed to men in the sabad. Why so? I have to observe that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji most of the time major issues are addressed and metaphors are used to speak to the most recognizable of the elements in the population. If there existed huge houses of ill repute or exploitation of men by women, of men by other men, and so on to the point that the exploitation of women was a small part, I have no doubt that the example(s) would have been given of such. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in delivering wisdom and helping us learn does not address each and every scenario of a given element. I have to believe that our Guru jis, the wise whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, used the most-effective and core metaphors. Once core issues in society start getting addressed, the smaller issues start to clean up by analogy.

Should we in translating extend specifics to generalizations? I think there is a much greater danger to lose effectiveness of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Guru ji in so doing. I will strongly advise against so doing. This may be personal view of mine as their are many wiser than me here.

We also need to note perhaps that this is not the only place where lust, infidelity is addressed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This perhaps is a very mild subset of the whole issue of Kaam (Lust) covered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Have a look here..its not all entirely satisfactory as per Gurbani (so keep a pinch of salt nearby !!) but it does have a lot of merit....
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhism_on_Prostitute

 

[japjisahib04]

Have a look here..its not all entirely satisfactory as per Gurbani (so keep a pinch of salt nearby !!) but it does have a lot of merit....
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhism_on_Prostitute

Gyani Ji I don't find any merit into the stories related with Ganika. I feel gurbani is universal, therefore it cannot be biased towards one gender. To me Ganika is a metaphor which is used for those who have sold off their conscience.

Best regards

 

[Ambarsaria]

Gyani Ji I don't find any merit into the stories related with Ganika. I feel gurbani is universal, therefore it cannot be biased towards one gender. To me Ganika is a metaphor which is used for those who have sold off their conscience.

Best regards

Veer japjisahib04 ji we do not dictate to SGGS whether to use gender or not in specific metaphors or tuks, sabads or otherwise. It is how it is.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Sahni Ji,
Ganika is a female name..and the adjective "Papann" in the Tuk makes sure of that.
Several places in Gurbani rpostitutes are mentioned..its always female...example: Guru ramdass Ji says that a son of a Prostitute has NO NAME (*******)....a man's LEGITIMATE son always has a name - that of his father.
And yes i do agree woth you that at certian places in SGGS..prostitution can mean and does mean."loss of conscience..sold out soul.." just as it means even TODAY...to me the present Sikh Leadership in Punjab are "prostitutes" who have sold out their souls/conscience to the Majority Community Racists....and SUCH are indeed mentioned in Gurbani of SGGS.

 

[japjisahib04]

Gyani Ji

I agree with you that Ganika is a female name. Likewise 20% of the shabd by our gurus and bhagats are written in feminine gender. I was only wondering if prostitution is bad then both the genders are equally guilty why single out female. When there is no buyer then there is no seller. I feel since Guru message is universal, thus all the sabds and its pankties relates to both the genders.
Mohinder Singh Sahni

 

[Ambarsaria]

Gyani Ji

I agree with you that Ganika is a female name. Likewise 20% of the shabd by our gurus and bhagats are written in feminine gender. I was only wondering if prostitution is bad then both the genders are equally guilty why single out female. When there is no buyer then there is no seller. I feel since Guru message is universal, thus all the sabds and its pankties relates to both the genders.
Mohinder Singh Sahni

Veer ji perhaps you can clarify in reference to the following ,

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai. Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||

To the end who keeps thinking of women, and die so wanting. Such so again and again born in prostitution life (Note:2).

Paraphrased for self: I read and understand the above as Trilochan ji addressing the men that if you are in Kaam of women, it is a bad you are doing to those women, and you will become one and then understand the harm you do.

So I kind of miss your point on gender equality or issues of such in the context of prostitution or reference to such in the above.

Sat Sri Akal.
​

 

[Ishna]

Ambarsaria bhaji, this thread is way over my head with the veechar, but from my simpleton perspective, when I read your quoted line, I probably side with JapjiSahib in that, as a woman, generally when reading SGGS (or most other scriptures for that matter) that are generally written by men, from a masculine point of view (our Guru Sahiban did a wonderful and beautiful job of including us ladies POV throughout SGGS though!), I tend to read the references to, say, 'thinking of women' to 'thinking of sex'. To my mind, the point of the reference is that those who are full of kaam will always want kaam (you harvest what you plant). It is a poetic image of an underlying, universal human phenomenon. Or else us ladies are exempt from this warning (unless one is a lesbian, teehee).

So I guess I'm with JapjiSahib (I think). Although the reference is to Ganika (prostitute) and that is ok in poetic context, the underlying focus is on kaam and that what you feed grows.

But as I said, I'm not good a veechar and this is just my humble opinion. peacesignkaur

 

[Ambarsaria]

So I guess I'm with JapjiSahib (I think). Although the reference is to Ganika (prostitute) and that is ok in poetic context, the underlying focus is on kaam and that what you feed grows.peacesignkaur

Bhain Ishna ji can you bounce back to me what I am saying versus what Japjisahib04 is saying where what I say is not in agreement with what he says! I am little lost in that context. Must been eating some wrong food or just glutinous.

Wishing Healthy, Happy and wealthy 2012 for you and family.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

So I guess I'm with Japji Sahib

Isi ji I'm with Ambarsaria Ji even when he is not with himself.In any case we happen to be male or female etc.We are biological creatures but our Guru addressed our Self.
The Self does not have gender ,well I hope it does not as I don't want my Self running after girls for all eternity,as I have done that on already on earth and not very well!

 

[Ambarsaria]

Isi ji I'm with Ambarsaria Ji even when he is not with himself.In any case we happen to be male or female etc.We are biological creatures but our Guru addressed our Self.
The Self does not have gender ,well I hope it does not as I don't want my Self running after girls for all eternity,as I have done that on already on earth and not very well!

sp veer ji I thought you were to untangle my knotted mind.

You instead just played with the knot lol

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji Let us be jolly and study the story behind the saying "ladies first"
Long ago, a man 'n woman were madly in love.They wanted to get married but their parents didn't approve.
So they decided to kill themselves.... They thought the best way to do it was to leap off a clip.
The man couldn't bare to see his sweetheart fall before him.. !So he convinced her he would go first, and he jumped of the cliff......
But the "Lady" did not not jump !lol

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Its a fact of life that "prostitution" the world over has since time immemorial been a " female" occupation..the Oldest profession !! Even those not "female" wear Female clothes and pretend to be Females (Heejrrahs ). In todys world where there are plenty of males in this profession (called Gigolos), and Gay marriages, child pornography, child trafficking, the overwhelming cross gender dressers dress in female clothes..women far outnumber men/so called "men"....so when a word like "Prostitute" is used its always a woman.
Of course Gurbani is universal and timeless and has an underlying bedrock of UNIVERSAL TRUTH.
This is the one main reason why the Sikh Rehat Maryada also states..that a SIKH may NOT allow his "DAUGHTER" to marry a NON-SIKH. There is NO MENTION of a SIKH and his SON. Some have argued that this is ultravires the Gender equality of SGGS etc etc...and SON should also be mentioned in the SRM...but these failed to see why ONLY the daughter is mentioned and its NOT due to Gender inequality/Bias at all..but for a completely different reason !!