Sggsj. Experiencing The Sound Or Intellectual Understanding?

Discussion in 'Convert's Corner' started by Simranjit, Dec 19, 2017.

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  1. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Hi,

    I've read this ''...many adherents of Sikhism recite Guru Nanak's and Kabir's poetry for their rhythmic flavor and supposed healing properties without meditating on messages themselves. And yet this may not be blindness at all; many believe that the very combination of syllabic effect and musical sound may very well produce, in an intuitive sense, more fruitfulness than intellectual ponderings about anhad nad." Anhad Naad: Soundlessness in Sikhi | SikhNet
    I wonder if there is some degree of consensus about it.

    I'm reading the banis in English, although I want lo learn Punjabi at some point, and so far I have the impression that, if the heart is open, then a door will open beetween intellectual understanding and the soul and they will be able to communicate.

    I know I'm using metaphors to describe something that I don't even understand but I have no better way to express myself about my first experiences with the banis. For me it is still something very subtle, but somewhat I have the impression that through intellectual understanding (even though this intellectual understanding is very limited) something is moving and changing within me.

    I would love to hear about others thoughts and experiences.

    Love,

    Simranjit
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    some, well me anyway, might say you are fortunate in that you are able to see past the sounds and mystic effects to the actual wisdom, taking time to hone your interpretation, but then it all hinges on what experience you are looking for from Sikhism, a mystical one or a factual one. A mystic only needs faith, the latter requires logic. Both are valid, in my opinion anyway.
     
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  4. MysticMonist

    MysticMonist SPNer

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    I like to think that reality has many layers which can be similtanously true. I've only read the first few pages of the Sri Guru Granath Sahib, but I'm convinced by it's divine orgin. It shares with other scripturers that the words themselves point to a deeper Truth.
    Plato, in the Republic, talks about how the eye can not see without light. In the same way we can read the words but if Divine Light doesn't illumine us it will have no effect.
    The Bab, founder of Baha'ism, puts it another way. God is unknownable and there exists a deep, dark, and treacherous sea between us and Him. We cannot hope to cross. Yet in this sea there is a Sun, the Word, the Revelation of God, that makes God known to us.
    I'm not entirely clear about Sikh beliefs regarding your sacred text, but I believe the text itself is the Guru; a messenger from God. Is this accurate?

    So back to the original post, every word and even every letter (especially in the orginal language) holds layers of meaning. For me, it's the Word of God, the only real access to God we have is thru His messengers.

    Btw, traditionally Bahais don't recognize Guru Nanak as a "divine Manifestation" for several reasons. But I've become persuaded that this narrow view is mistaken. No one has a monopoly on God.
     
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  5. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Loving your post Simranjit ... you know why? you are contemplating...dream BIG sister!...imagine that sound flowing within you...imagine a light flowing from your heart through all the cells of your body when you read and 'Contemplate' gurbani...

    Say Satnaam, and feel it...Say within yourself "Waheguru...i know you're there....i await your call"... be a dreamer...break the boundaries of your mind...
    by doing so in effect you are preparing yourself for the wonders that lie ahead...and in my very limited experience...it's mind blowing...literally....

    Keep on contemplating...dream, imagine...one day you will just sit there in AWE at what just took place... :)

    I'm with you Sister! and don't forget to lift me up if you see me fall along the way! :)

    as i mentioned in an earlier post on another thread today ... ask Gurbani..."where do i look to find you" ... and when you get the answer ... start making the effort to look there :)
     
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  6. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    Simranjit, as I said before, its not you who have found the path [Sikh], but rather the path who has found you. And, now that you're on the path you're likely to meet many others who are on the same path and perhaps on the same wavelength as yourself, but not necessarily of the same view n wisdom. This is understandable because there is this inborn inequality within all humans. Their intellectual n spiritual maturity is at a variance and develops with time n practice. The important thing to remember is that different tongues will speak differently of the "one" underlying reality - God. Allow your inner master to decipher all information n experiences to take you a step closer to the "ultimate reality" [anhad shabd, AS].

    Anhad=Unstruck
    Shabd=Sound

    Q: question arises why the seers of Truth called it Unstruck Sound ?
    A: Because they couldn't equate it with anything that is within the material universe, meaning, metaphysical. Now, if that is the case then does it not require non-physical means to "hear" it ? Of course it does ! Page 139 of SGGSJ confirms this, thus:

    to see without eyes
    hear without ears
    walk without feet
    work without hands
    speak without tongue
    die whilst living
    O'Nanak recognise the Lord's command and merge with it....

    Bhagat Kabir Ji describe it as a state which is beyond time n space [metaphysical] and that there is no letter in the alphabet that can describe it, thus [SGGSJ, 340].

    To answer your question affirmatively, I will have to ask, has anybody at SikhNet got any of the above properties to render their statement legitimate ? I don't think so. Calling it "soundlessness" is to ascribe to it a property [noun, plural] when in actual fact AS is "attributive less", meaning, no property or quality can be ascribe to it. Put simply, its an unspeakable experience, pretty much like orgasm but out of the body.

    Moving on, you've been found by the "guru" - sit back n relax and don't go chasing anhad shabd like a cat chases a mouse. The more you'll chase the further it will get [spiritual law]. Because its within you make it come out, make it sound and develop non-physical means to hear it. How ?

    Follow Nanak's 3 pillar Sikhism: seva, work and meditation. And remember, just as eager as you are to hear the music of the spheres [AS], so are eager the spheres to singh for you.

    More another time....until then

    Hasta manana
     
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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Simranjit ji,
    Guru Fateh.

    Welcome to SPN.

    Music is universal. It is a mental jinga (impromptu dance in Portuguese). One may not understand what is being sung but one can sure feel it in each and every cell. This is the magic (magia) of the music. It is also like learning to crawl as a first step with the moves that our inner orchestra makes us make while listening to it.

    This is the reason, our visionary Gurus wrote Gurbani in the musical form so that it belonged to the whole humanity rather than the chosen few.

    As far as, ''...many adherents of Sikhism recite Guru Nanak's and Kabir's poetry for their rhythmic flavor and supposed healing properties without meditating on messages themselves. And yet this may not be blindness at all; many believe that the very combination of syllabic effect and musical sound may very well produce, in an intuitive sense, more fruitfulness than intellectual ponderings about anhad nad." Anhad Naad: Soundlessness in Sikhi | SikhNet, is concerned, this is nothing but snake oil sales pitch which Sikhnet is known for. This has nothing to do with Sikhi though.

    Music may or may not have the healing powers but it does have the connecting power. One finds the connection within. So, enjoy your inner jinga till you are ready to immerse in the meaningfulness of the message, meaning, pass the crawling stage but take your time. No rush because one's gem mine lies within oneself.

    Relish your journey!
     
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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    MysticMonist ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Would you be kind enough to define god for me as you understand him/her/it as you have used the word several times and does Sikhi have a different take on it? Thanks.

    Secondly, why would the Bahais recognize Guru Nanak as a "divine Manifestation" because Sikhi does not?
     
  9. MysticMonist

    MysticMonist SPNer

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    I don't think God can be defined. That's the role of revelation to tell us about God that He is the source of all things, the King and Lord of the universe, that he is the Beloved of our souls, that he is just and the source of all goodness.

    By divine Manifestion, a Bahai term with layers of meaning, I mean that Guru Nanak is a divine Messenger and a perfect mirror to the Divine. He is the embodiment of the Spirit of Revelation. I think it's a mystery exactly what this is. I prefer to think it's a human being who is bestowed and annointed with that Spirit, but maybe it's more than that.

    Since God is infinite and perfect and his annointed Messengers are perfect or nearly so, it's hard being finite and flawed to describe them.
    How would Sikhs describe it differently?
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    MysticMonist ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    God is considered as a deity in most of the religions but in Sikhi. Secondly, Sikhi has no so-called anointed messengers.
     
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  11. MysticMonist

    MysticMonist SPNer

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    I understand rejecting a deity. I agree with Sikhism that God is beyond our human understanding and much of the trappings of religions have little to do with God.

    Your issue with messengers is very interesting. One of the first things I read about Sikhism is that they don't recognize prophets. Yet, other places it's been explained that God has sent Gurus in the past.

    From Sikh awareness forum
    "In essense and a traditional interpretatoin is, that the historical Gurus were manifestations of divine attributes of God. The many attributes of God take form in the person of the Guru and avatars of the past. This would also include the prophets of the Semitic traditions. In our scriptures and commentaries you can find references to Krishna, Vishnu, Moses, Muhammed etc.

    It is also states that there is a difference in the number of attributes each of these manifestations has, depending on the context and mission they were to have. That Guru Nanak had more attributes than Krishna or Moses does not in a thelogical sense mean that Guru Nanak was better or beyond in any sense. It Means that the mission of Guru Nanak was more intense, and therefore manifested more attributes. Likewise in the Guru Granth Sahib you have the revelations of the Gurus, their followers and bhagats at the same level."

    So maybe the problem is the term "messenger". Are Gurus not messengers? Are they not annointed?
    How would you describe Gurus?
     
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  12. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    MysticMonist ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    So you do agree that Sikhi sees god quite differently than others.

    Firstly, I have no issue with the messenger, especially in this internet age, we have courier services in all different forms.

    If god had sent Gurus in the past, then the god one envisions is a deity that Sikhi has none.

    In Sikhi, we are all messengers of sharing the Goodness. This is the reason we are all over the world where help is needed. We just opened an orphanage in Puerto Rico with a school with only one condition, that is that we never use catch phrases like "my god is doing this for you, here is the book that will show you how to be saved by my god."
    Isn't this what the true meaning of being godly all about? In other words, Seva is selfless.

    This is the Abrahamic version from the lovers of Sikhi, who were Christian missionaries that couldn't discard their Semitic baggage. Even their Sikh students followed the same modus operandi, sad to say. As Sikhi did not stop in time like all the religions who were founded in one generation, we are trying to rectify this on SPN with the right kind of translation which reflects Sikhi values.

    Yes, all other prophets from the prevelant religions are mentioned in the SGGS to show the acknowledgement of the diversity of thought, nothing more.

    Again, this is the Biblical baggage that we are still dealing with. Whatever is mentioned has nothing to do with Sikhi I am afraid. But we shall overcome.

    As mentioned before, I have no problem with anything that needs correcting and I try to play my part to the best of my ability.

    Sikhi is an idea based not deity based as other religions are. Sikhi has no clergy system. We are all messengers as divinity is present in all as per SGGS, our only Guru. SGGS is our only Guru now.

    Our Gurus were commoners with families. When Guru Nanak passed "the Guruship" (in fact, they never called themselves Gurus. They gave themselves numbers instead because Sikhi is not about Me-ism but about One-ism) to Guru Angad to further his idea based school of thought, he went back to farming as a commoner. This process took 200 some years to evolve.
    It is worth mentioning again that the divine dwells in all.

    If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

    Thanks for the interesting interaction.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  13. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb Writer SPNer

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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    To see without eyes. Has anyone seen cause of gravity how it is generated Newton has realised operation. For humans to realise invisible world acting on his body and mind is like seeing the invisible, or seeing without eyes. There are many events in nature which cannot be seen with eyes but can be experience with intellact.

    If humans have understanding of generation of space,fire, water,earth,air. They could have controlled life Thanks to GOD true nature Generator Operator Destroyer for hidden treasures.

    Hear without ears, human ears have limit of listening, subtle voice once experienced can be listened. Listening of bats fishes snakes bees and many other forms in nature if one realises one can understand listening without ears. When human sheds ego of one's own intelligence, they get experience of other intelligent species around us, and experience vast nature, with praise of GOD W A H E GURU that is spirit of word.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji ki fateh
     
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  14. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Hi all,

    I'm hugely enjoying your conversations and hopefully being able to learn from them.
    Tejwant ji, would you please explain a bit more about it or give me a link or article reference? I'm very interested. I'm reading the banis in English. Thanks.

    Love,
    Simranjit
     
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  15. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Simranjit ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Please let me know what exactly you are looking for so the right information can be provided.

    Googling the original English translators of Guru Granth will be of great value. After going through that, please don’t hesitate to ask any questions you may have.

    Just as a teaser, the word ‘Rom’ in the Guru Granth is translated as ‘Hair’ which it is not. As a result, the dogmatic honchos of Sikhi started putting too much emphasis on bodily hair of a Sikh. The word ‘Rom’ means ‘Pore’ in the initial understanding but it even gets better when one studies Gurbani a bit deeper with the help of different verses mentioning ‘Rom.’ The meaning then becomes each and every ‘Cell’ of our body where the omnipresence of Ik Ong Kaar is. Thus the word Rom incorrectly translated has changed the paradigm of Sikhi in the dogmatic sphere.

    More hearing from you.

    Thanks & Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  16. Simranjit

    Simranjit Writer SPNer

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    Thanks so much,
    I will do the research you suggested and then I'll come back here to ask the questions that will surely arise.

    Love,
    Simranjit
     
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  17. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Hey Mystic...

    when we imply messenger....we imply there is 'another' other than God...
    The way i read SGGS Ji, is that when it talks to you, it is talking to the Ego...the mind...in order that 'you' the character in this play...the ego/body/personality question this existence as you currently perceive it...

    Other sections of SGGS Ji, only talk of there being 'ONLY GOD' and no other...

    so if we work (as per guidelines in SGGS Ji) to dissolve the Ego....what then remains? what are we... :)

    This all (as per Sikhi) can be unraveled in this Human Birth...pure, real experience, what can be more exciting that that?

    Astronauts and scientists work a lifetime to uncover a single mystery, only for more questions to then follow...what if you can unravel the mother of all mysteries whilst sitting on your living room couch... :)
     
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  18. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Experience for sure.
     
  19. FilledToTheBrim

    FilledToTheBrim SPNer

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    Where which source did you get this definition of rom from?
     
  20. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    From Gurbani

    And also:
    Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
    [1. Sk. n.] 1. hair on the body. 2. Pore
    SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
    Sri Granth: Punjabi Dictionary & Encyclopedia
     
  21. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    Sir, the word "rom" is commonly used as an adjective [Punjabi, language n literature], meaning, "permeating every fibre of the body/or space". Take for example, the shabd [ਚਉਦਸਿ ਚਉਦਹ ਲੋਕ ਮਝਾਰਿ ॥ ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਮਹਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਤ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਰਹੁ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ ਕਥਨੀ ਕਥੀਐ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੧੫॥ 344,SGGSJ]. Translation [bold]...god occupies/lives in every fibre [rom rom]. Note - the word rom is always used consecutively, that is, one after the other [rom rom], to strengthen meaning and context.

    The dictionary meaning [Sanskrit/Punjabi], however, is hair and also, fluff like substance [loo'n, epidermis of a plant/animal].

    Hair occupy a special place in Sikhi from a "particular" perspective. Conversely, no-hair occupies a special place in Buddhism. It all depends on perspectives.

    Much obliged
     

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