Scientific Vision Of Guru Nanak Dev In Guru Granth Sahib

[Prof Hardev Singh Virk]

Scientific Vision of Guru Nanak Dev in Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) ​

Kind Courtesy: H.S. VIRK Ji

Director Research, DAVIET, Kabir Nagar, Jallandhar, India
​

Introduction
Religion and Science are both engaged in the exploration of Ultimate Reality. The field of religion concerns consciousness and its flux in molding the destiny of man. Science explores the nature or its manifestation through the material world. It starts from gross matter and moves toward subtle consciousness pervading in the material world. Scientists use physical and chemical methods to discover the secrets of universe while the Prophets use divine intuition to reveal these secrets. All their conclusions may not coincide but their objective remains the same to explore the secret of Laws of Nature. Indeed a scientific perspective is conducive to and valuable in comprehending the scope of the vision of the Sikh Gurus.
Typically it is scholars in the fields of literature, philosophy, and history who undertake an analysis of Sikh scripture and with the inclusion of scientists – physicists, astronomers, chemists, geologists, biologists, the exegesis of the text is only enhanced. For instance, Guru Nanak’s vision [1]: “patala patal lakh agasa agasa -- worlds below worlds, worlds above worlds” (Japuji, 22) leave us wide-eyed, but they acquire a real palpability and concreteness when we look at them through an astronomer’s telescope. As we apply the empirical data of our Milky Way galaxy with its hundred billion stars and the scientific observations regarding billions of other galaxies, we really begin to visualize what Guru Nanak meant, and thereby gain a fuller understanding and appreciation of his verse. The scientific adventure, its observations, and factual data, do not clash with Sikh sacred scripture; they reveal its intrinsic vigor, its far-reaching insights, and its contemporary relevance.
Glimpses of Scientific Vision of Guru Nanak Dev
Cosmology in GGS
There are a large number of theories about the creation of the universe but so far ‘Big Bang Theory’ is widely accepted by many scientists. However, with every new scientific discovery the theory may undergo a drastic change in the future. One must keep in mind that theories are based on some scientific information and use of logic and it will change as soon as more facts are discovered. Many theologians emphasize that theories propounded by scientists change with the time, therefore, the science is not a stable field. On the other hand, they say that the God has revealed the theology to the deities, prophets, Gurus; therefore, it cannot change. But one should also not forget that God has also revealed principles of science, Laws of Universe, to the scientists. Therefore, science and theology cannot contradict each other since both have been revealed by God [2].

It is my considered opinion that Sikh Cosmology as enunciated in GGS has been found to be most scientific and compatible with the modern cosmological theories of science. In Japuji, Guru Nanak sums up his ideas about creation of the Universe, which he elaborates further in the most precise and scientific manner in the Raga Maru Solhe in GGS. The creation hypothesis is summed up as follows by Guru Nanak [3]:

‘God created the Universe by uttering a word.’​

kIqw pswau eyko kvwau ] iqs qy hoey lK drIAwau ]​

Thus the problem of ‘singularity’ faced by the Big-Bang model of the Universe is solved by the Guru by bringing in God as the creator of the Universe. Once this riddle is solved, the sequence of creation, its epoch and extent is described in GGS in a most rational manner. Guru Nanak poses the next question in Japuji [4]:

‘What was the time and the moment​

the day and the month,​

When the world was created?​

kvxu su vylw vKqu kvxu kvxu iQiq kvxu vwru ]​

kvix is ruqI mwhu kvxu ijqu hoAw Awkwru ]​

In the next stanza, Guru Nanak provides the answer [5]:

‘Neither the Pundit can find this date​

by looking through the Purana texts,​

Nor can the Qazi tell from the Koran,​

Neither the Yogi nor any one else knows​

The day, weak, season and month of creation,​

The creator who creates the World,​

He alone knows the time’​

vyl n pweIAw pMfqI ij hovY lyKu purwxu ]​

vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwx ]​

iQiq vwru nw jogI jwxY ruiq mwhu nw koeI ]​

jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ]​

Guru Nanak does not want to formulate any hypothesis based on false assumptions and leaves this question open. The creation process is started under the command of God, the creator of the universe. The Guru envisages the creation of the Universe out of ‘Sünya’ which is devoid of matter but not of energy. Hence a beautiful analogy with quantum concept of creation ‘out of nothing’ as a vacuum fluctuation is established in Raga Maru Solhe [6]:

In the Primal Void (Sünya), the Infinite Lord assumed His Power​

He created the air, water, earth and sky out of Sünya; ​

He created universe and the man in the fortress of body
suMn klw AprMpir DwrI ]…………………

pauxu pwxI suMnY qy swjy ] isRsit aupwie kwieAw gV rwjy ]​

This wonderful drama of creation is elucidated further by Guru Nanak in his mystic reverie. Surprisingly, there is a perfect correspondence between the epoch of ‘Big-Bang’ and the creation out of Sünya phase as enunciated in Maru Solhe, the most beautiful hymn on Sikh Cosmology [7]:

‘For billions of years, there was nothing but utter darkness. There was neither day nor night, nor moon, nor sun, but the Lord alone sat in profound trance. Neither there was creation, nor air, nor water. There were no continents, nor underworlds, nor seven oceans nor rivers, or the flowing water. There was neither death, nor time. There was no Brahma, nor Vishnu or Shiva.​

When He so willed, He created the world and supported the firmament without support. He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and extended the love of mammon. He founded the continents, solar systems and underworlds, and from the Absolute self,He became manifest.”​

Arbd nrbd DuMDUkwrw [[Drix n ggnw hukmu Apwrw [[​

nw idnu rYin n cMdu n sUrju suMn smwiD lgwiedw ]……

Guru Arjun Dev, the fifth Sikh Guru and compiler of GGS, describes in Sukhmani the myriad forms of creation. The cyclic theory of creation is accepted in GGS [8]:

There are millions and millions of galaxies and solar systems in the universe. The phenomenon of creation has occurred so many times. But the one Lord remains for ever and ever.”​

keI koit KwxI Aru KMf ] keI koit Akws bRhmMf ]​

keI koit hoey Avqwr ] keI jugiq kIno ibsQwr]​

keI bwr psirE pwswr] sdw sdw ieku eykMkwr]​

The universe is still expanding since the Big Bang occurred. And no limit has been established according to the present day knowledge of science. Guru Nanak explains infiniteness of universe in his own inimitable style after rejecting the hypotheses put forward by religions of both the oriental and occidental traditions, as follows [9]: [/FONT]

There are hundreds of thousands of nether worlds,​

and hundreds of thousands of skies.​

After great research the Vedas have failed to say it definitely.​

The Semitic books say that there are eighteen thousand worlds,​

and they claim it is the factual truth.​

pwqwlw pwqwl lK Awgwsw Awgws ]​

EVk EVk Bwil Qky vyd khin iek vwq ]​

shs ATwrh khin kqybw AsulU ieku Dwqu ]

However, Guru Nanak does not enter into any mathematical rigmarole to make an assessment or count of the celestial bodies comprising our Universe. After quoting the prevalent tradition or information available at that time, Guru Nanak records his own observations in GGS in the form of his mystic reverie. He says that the cosmos (universe) contains countless number of celestial bodies. The real number would be known only to the God, the creator of the Universe [9]:

It cannot be possible to count (number of the celestial bodies in the universe),​

Because the accounting person may reach the end of his life during counting,​

It will still be incomplete.​

Guru Nanak says that the God is the Great,​

Who knows the account (of the celestial bodies in the universe).​

lyKw hoie q ilKIAY lyKY hoie ivxwsu ]​

nwnk vfw AwKIAY Awpy jwxY Awpu ]​

According to the present scientific information available there are billions of galaxies and each galaxy is composed of billions of stars and their planets and moons. Our sun, having nine planets revolving around it, is one of the billions of stars of our galaxy, the Milky Way.

The riddle of creation of the Universe will remain an enigma for cosmologists and there is no final word yet in cosmology. About the present theories and models, we may conclude with a quotation from the Benti Chaupai in Dasam Granth [10]:

“Everyone explains the creation process according to his intellect,​

But no one can tell, O Lord,​

How you first created the universe”​

Awp AwpnI buiD hY jyqI [ brnq iBMn-iBMn quih qyqI [
(b) Origin and Evolution of Life in GGS: Various theories of origin and evolution of life have been put forward in the holy books of all religions. But one thing is common to all of them: God is the creator of life in this universe. Guru Nanak also accepts this postulate of God as the Creator of the universe and life in all its manifestations. However, Guru Nanak also accepts the theory of evolution in his own characteristic manner without taking recourse to the concept of natural selection in the Darwinian way.

In Japuji [11], Guru Nanak refers to the creation of various forms and living beings under the divine law (hukam). But this divine law is incomprehensible.

hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI]​

hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI ]​

In SGGS [12], Guru Arjun poses the question about the origin of life and he answers it as follows:

Where do we go in the end?​

All creatures belong to God, Who can place a value on Him?​

ikQhu aupjY kh rhY kh mwih smwvY]​

jIA jMq siB Ksm ky kauxu kImiq pwvY]​

In Siddh-Goshit [13-14], Guru Nanak answers the queries of Siddhas regarding creation of life, mind and the universe as follows:

Q.1 When this heart and the body did not exist, where did the mind reside?
jw iehu ihrdw dyh n hoqI qau mnu kYTY rhqw]

A.1 When the heart and the body did not exist, O hermit, then the mind resided with Absolute Lord in the void.
ihrdw dyh n hoqI AauDU qau mnu suMn rhY bYrwgI ]

Q.2 What is the root, the source of life?
What teachings hold for these times?
kvx mUlu kvx miq vylw]

A.2 Pray Sir, it is air that supports life.
And, the true Guru’s message is the creed of the day.
pvn ArMBu siqgur miq vylw]

According to Guru Nanak, all the living things such as plants, birds and animals etc. are made of three elements, namely, material body, soul and prana. These elements owe their origin to the Absolute Lord. The hypothesis of Guru Nanak [15] is simple and straight forward:

The True Lord created the air,
From air, water arose.
From water, creation arose.
His Light permeates all creation.

swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie]​

jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie]​

We find reference to evolution of species in the universe in Gurbani without taking recourse to any scientific theory of evolution. Sikh Gurus generally followed the traditional Hindu view of eight million and four hundred thousand species [16] of living organisms in the universe. Man is the summum bonnum of this creation.

“God has created eighty four lakh (8.4 million) species of beings”​

lK caurwsIh jMq aupwey]

There is a classification of all living organisms into four categories [17-18] on the basis of their origin. They are grouped as under:

(i)Those born from egg (andaj);
(ii)Those born from womb (jevaj);
(iii)Those born from earth (utbhuj), and
(iv)Those born from sweat (setaj).

“Egg born, womb born, earth born and heat born; are all Thine creatures.
Oceans, mountains, and all beings - O Nanak, He alone knows their condition.
O Nanak, having created the living beings, He cherishes them all”.

AMfj jyrj auqBujW KwxI syqjWh]​

so imiq jwxY nwnkw srW myrW jMqwh]​

nwnk jMq aupwie kY sMmwly sBnwh]​

“Egg born, womb born, earth born and heat born; are all created by You.​

I have seen one glory of Yours, that You are pervading and permeating in all”.​

AMfj jyrj auqBuj syqj qyry kIqy jMqw]​

eyk purb mY qyrw dyiKAw qU sBnw mwih rvMqw ]​

In SGGS, it is also mentioned by Bhagat Namdev [19] that forty two lakh species exist in water and the same number may exist on land. Science has failed to confirm this hypothesis.

bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau]​

The message of Sikh Gurus is enshrined in GGS. In the final analysis, we can quote a relevant stanza in support of biological evolution of species [20]:

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;​

In so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer;​

In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake;​

In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.​

Meet the Lord of the Universe – now is the time to meet Him.​

After such a long epoch, you are born as a human being.​

keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw]keI jnm gj mIn kurMgw ]​

keI jnm pMKI srp hoieE]keI jnm hYvr ibRK joieE]​

imlu jgdIs imln kI brIAw]icrMkwl ieh dyh sMjrIAw]​

References
1. Nikky- Guninder Kaur Singh, Foreword to Author’s book published by Singh Brothers,
Nov. 2007, p. 15.
2. DS Chahal, Understanding Sikhism: The Research Journal, Vol. 9(1), p.46, 2006.
3. GGS, M1, p.3.
4. GGS, M1, p.4.
5. GGS, M1, p.4.
6. GGS, M1, p.1037.
7. GGS, M1, p.1035.
8. GGS, M5, p.276.
9. GGS, M1, Jap 22, p. 5.
10. Guru Gobind Singh, Benati Chaupai, Dasam Granth, Published by Bhai
Chattar Singh - Jeewan Singh, Amritsar, 1902, p.1387.
11. GGS, M.1, p.1.
12. GGS, M.5, p.1193.
13. GGS, M.1, p.945.
14. GGS, M.1, p.942-943.
15. GGS, M.1, p.19.
16. GGS, M.1, p.1190.
17. GGS, M.1, p.467.
18. GGS, M.1, p. 596.
19. GGS, Bhagat Namdev, p.485.
20. GGS, M.5, p.176.

End Note: The text of this essay is based on my recently published book, “Scientific Vision in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Interfaith Dialogue” by Singh Brothers, Amritsar. The full implication of the theme can be realized by reading this book. It must be pointed out that SGGS is not a text book of Science but the Vision of Sikh Gurus recorded in it is far more scientific as compared to the Holy Books of other faiths. Guru Nanak gave a clarion call to reject rituals and myths and promoted a scientific vision of life in this Universe.

 

[Archived_Member5]

The Supreme power and Spiritual Life force is an enigmatic mystery only to seekers upon the path to truth. The path of life is clear and concise on some days of mental clarity and clear unsullied thought, and complex and confusing when the intellect and mind are distracted by other modes of thinking, or perturbed by stresses causing anger, stress and hate to mar the distinction in lines of truth and sound judgment. The Earth consists of an amalgam of siumilar5 matter present in the human body and it interaction with the atmosphere. Some perceive the cosmos as the body of our Creator, the planet stratosphere being the interactive power sustaining organs. Man as a minute particle of the greater universe.

Humanity is born of matter, and grow to adulthood. The brain is constructed of an inherited template from the parentage, all truth lies within the subconscious, itself a particle of the universal conscious. The truth and answers man seeks are within him. He travels upon a line of thinking firing his neurons with the inherent dormant modes of inclination, and with external influencing factors triggering the lineal thinking upon an indeterminate maze of many paths. It requires perfect mental clarity to reach the highest truth, an intellectual and moral fidelity to the end bypassing and negating any interference en route that may fire with a negative adversarial neuron generating irrational thinking leading to confusion.

Teachers teach their students to construct a thesis, with a beginning, a list of many path options culminating in the objective sought. If the final conclusion is known it becomes an adventure of the many differing paths and the reasons they assume a variant path to the main or popular one. If one has no factual objective one cannot charter a course to its end. Science and religion are able to substantiate reason and logic, being fully aware of a need to reunite the molecules that have diversified from their one principle core. One must therefore hold a belief in a foundational principle to devise methods to providing evidence for the same.

This leads us to the question, what is God, its constituents, virtues, attributes. All formulations must engender all areas of science, biological, physics, and spirituality, the life force energy bereft of which man ceases to live. A cognitive study of all these sciences or knowledge and their interdependence will lead to truth. Ignoring substantive areas of knowledge such as religion and spirituality results in all findings remaining inconclusive and falsifiable. The Vedas, Adi Grant, and the Gita all contain all knowledge man requires pertaining to his world. It is the task for Science to understand and substantiate all data contained therein. Science knows most answers remaining undisclosed to preserve the inner sanctum of the Gods which is in fact unprotected and exposed to harsh ignorant scrutiny. The pure in heart find the Light, Love and Wisdom of The Waheguru, others may battle and study and remain struggling to make sense of what is obvious to the sages ...

YouTube - Carl Sagan 4th Dimension Explanation

Spiritual Science is the science of consciousness. As a child it senses little but its hunger and its provider and appeaser of its thirst, the parent. It grows to an awareness of a world beyond the realm of its home. As the consciousness mature, grows and expands it encompasses thought and intuition, not only of words and the world in motion, but of reasoning and enquiry, an examination of why all occurrences are manifest in the manner manifest to him. Why the world and its inhabitants do not appear as a solid particle to all, but multi faceted complex blocks with varying aspect and personal traits and characteristic. The blessed grow further than this third dimension, into the fourth dimension of the universe contained within ones imagination and vice versa. Films such as The Matrix confirm what we know to be a universe of dual opposing powers and forces at war, battling one for dominance and release.

 

[pk70]

I have read advocates of different religions comparing their religions with the science; I find it disturbing and out of context. If ever there are references about the reality of universe, and its origin in the religious scriptures, it has nothing to do with the scientific search to prove what is claimed. Guru Nanak went further to satisfy the curious mind about all this. He openly declares HE is Infinite, how you can measure the Infinite as Science is trying(and will never succeed, it is that simple, already they argue over one after another theory). Guru Nanak calls Him inexpressible, how any one can express Him truthfully. Guru Nanak keeps the Lord and His seen and unseen creation a part of Him, that is another brilliant insight to stop the mind getting into assumptions and to chase assumptions. His main goal is to keep the soul on a track with a longing to merge with its origin so that its coming and going stops. I am proud of Guru Nanak Dev ji who, while addressing on these questions, kept the purity of the Lord to His highest level.

It is my considered opinion that Sikh Cosmology as enunciated in GGS has been found to be most scientific and compatible with the modern cosmological theories of science.​

God doesn’t need to be scientific, He doesn’t need approval of scientists. He is a reality, only those come to know who experience Him. Story starts and ends right here, the rests are assumptions on the part of others who want to be in a race to prove Sikh Religion a scientific as others like Muslims, Christians and Hindus do.
Lets start with the following. (Note:All quotes are taken from H.S Virk Ji’s article)
In SGGS, it is also mentioned by Bhagat Namdev [19] that forty two lakh species exist in water and the same number may exist on land. Science has failed to confirm this hypothesis.

bieAwlIs lK jI jl mih hoqy bITlu BYlw kwie krau]​

These forty eight lacs incarnations are used to express different kinds of known lives; this word was prevailing before Bhagat Namdev ji. It has nothing to do with the exact numbers of species.
The message of Sikh Gurus is enshrined in GGS. In the final analysis, we can quote a relevant stanza in support of biological evolution of species [20]: (quote from the article)

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;​

In so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer;​

In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake;​

In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.​

Meet the Lord of the Universe – now is the time to meet Him.​

After such a long epoch, you are born as a human being.​

keI jnm Bey kIt pqMgw]keI jnm gj mIn kurMgw ]​

keI jnm pMKI srp hoieE]keI jnm hYvr ibRK joieE]​

imlu jgdIs imln kI brIAw]icrMkwl ieh dyh sMjrIAw] ​

It is a journey of a soul expressed, it is not about evolution because Guru ji is not saying in favor of things which can be proven wrong. It is all about experience that doesn’t need any scientific proof. Religion is all about faith, and faith should be built on the words of the prophets, Messiah and the True Guru, later on explanations could be tainted and misleading.

​

In Japuji, Guru Nanak sums up his ideas about creation of the Universe, which he elaborates further in the most precise and scientific manner in the Raga Maru Solhe in GGS. The creation hypothesis is summed up as follows by Guru Nanak [3]:​

‘God created the Universe by uttering a word.’​

kIqw pswau eyko kvwau ] iqs qy hoey lK drIAwau ] ​

​

What does it says? Does it say all about big bang or any other assumption based on claims (by the scientists)? No, it is all about His Will, when He wanted, how He wanted, is created and only He knows how and when. Who try to express it on assumptions, they are ignorant. Guru’s expression is a proof of fine mind’s claim. It is clearer in the following, read on please

​

‘What was the time and the moment​

the day and the month,​

When the world was created?​

kvxu su vylw vKqu kvxu kvxu iQiq kvxu vwru ]​

kvix is ruqI mwhu kvxu ijqu hoAw Awkwru ]​

In the next stanza, Guru Nanak provides the answer [5]:

‘Neither the Pundit can find this date​

by looking through the Purana texts,​

Nor can the Qazi tell from the Koran,​

Neither the Yogi nor any one else knows​

The day, weak, season and month of creation,​

The creator who creates the World,​

He alone knows the time’( THIS IS THE ANSWER THINK ABOUT IT)​

vyl n pweIAw pMfqI ij hovY lyKu purwxu ]​

vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwx ]​

iQiq vwru nw jogI jwxY ruiq mwhu nw koeI ]​

jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ]​

Guru Nanak does not want to formulate any hypothesis based on false assumptions and leaves this question open.
Thanks, neither we need to have claims filled with assumptions.
The creation process is started under the command of God, the creator of the universe. The Guru envisages the creation of the
That is the eternal truth; the Truth Guru has defined is very crystal clear, to taint it with imaginary hopes is not fair to Guru Nanak’s high caliber.



TO BE CONTINUED

 

[pk70]

Universe out of ‘Sünya’ which is devoid of matter but not of energy. Hence a beautiful analogy with quantum concept of creation ‘out of nothing’ as a vacuum fluctuation is established in Raga Maru Solhe [6]:

In the Primal Void (Sünya), the Infinite Lord assumed His Power​

He created the air, water, earth and sky out of Sünya; ​

He created universe and the man in the fortress of body
suMn klw AprMpir DwrI ]…………………

pauxu pwxI suMnY qy swjy ] isRsit aupwie kwieAw gV rwjy ]​

This wonderful drama of creation is elucidated further by Guru Nanak in his mystic reverie. Surprisingly, there is a perfect correspondence between the epoch of ‘Big-Bang’ and the creation out of Sünya phase as enunciated in Maru Solhe, the most beautiful hymn on Sikh Cosmology [7]:​

There are millions and millions of galaxies and solar systems in the universe. The phenomenon of creation has occurred so many times. But the one Lord remains for ever and ever.”​

keI koit KwxI Aru KMf ] keI koit Akws bRhmMf ]​

keI koit hoey Avqwr ] keI jugiq kIno ibsQwr]​

keI bwr psirE pwswr] sdw sdw ieku eykMkwr]


​

No body knows about it, even the so called scientists do not know fully about the mystery of its expansion or inevitable suspension. Guru is aware of it and says, He created and ended and created, there is no final word about it and there would not either in future.. That is another verification of the Lord being infinite. In the following quote, again Guru ji doesn’t participate in assuming but he is expressing all seen and unseen, is actually the Infinite. Science tries to prove the seen realty and its existence, but the supreme enlightened one, expresses the purpose of the realty and never act like mediocre being. So Guru Nanak didn’t either. Just look at the following quotes that proves what I am saying
The universe is still expanding since the Big Bang occurred. And no limit has been established according to the present day knowledge of science. Guru Nanak explains infiniteness of universe in his own inimitable style after rejecting the hypotheses put forward by religions of both the oriental and occidental traditions, as follows [9]:

There are hundreds of thousands of nether worlds,​

and hundreds of thousands of skies.​

After great research the Vedas have failed to say it definitely.​

The Semitic books say that there are eighteen thousand worlds,​

and they claim it is the factual truth.​

pwqwlw pwqwl lK Awgwsw Awgws ]​

EVk EVk Bwil Qky vyd khin iek vwq ]​

shs ATwrh khin kqybw AsulU ieku Dwqu ]​

In Here, there are a few questions that create curiosity about all this, look how Guru ji answers those, he is very aware what he says and remains glued to the truth instead of going into assumptions.

In Siddh-Goshit [13-14], Guru Nanak answers the queries of Siddhas regarding creation of life, mind and the universe as follows:

Q.1 When this heart and the body did not exist, where did the mind reside?
jw iehu ihrdw dyh n hoqI qau mnu kYTY rhqw]

A.1 When the heart and the body did not exist, O hermit, then the mind resided with Absolute Lord in the void.
ihrdw dyh n hoqI AauDU qau mnu suMn rhY bYrwgI ]

Q.2 What is the root, the source of life?
What teachings hold for these times?
kvx mUlu kvx miq vylw]

A.2 Pray Sir, it is air that supports life.
And, the true Guru’s message is the creed of the day.
pvn ArMBu siqgur miq vylw]​

AMfj jyrj auqBujW KwxI syqjWh]​

so imiq jwxY nwnkw srW myrW jMqwh]​

nwnk jMq aupwie kY sMmwly sBnwh]​

“Egg born, womb born, earth born and heat born; are all created by You.​

I have seen one glory of Yours, that You are pervading and permeating in all”.​

AMfj jyrj auqBuj syqj qyry kIqy jMqw]​

eyk purb mY qyrw dyiKAw qU sBnw mwih rvMqw ]​

If Guru Nanak Dev says about Lord’s creation a reality, he also says in Assa Dee Vaar, that if all this comes in the way of uniting with the Lord, it is False ਕੂੜੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਕੂੜੁ ਪਰਜਾ ਕੂੜੁ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
Kūṛ rājā kūṛ parjā kūṛ sabẖ sansār.
False is the king, false are the subjects; false is the whole world.
ਮਃ 1
..( Assa Dee Vaar)

I again want to stress here that Guru doesn’t verify here how many kinds of lives are there but addressing already prevailed idea to prove that nothing is created beyond the Lord.. He is the creator of all, seen or unseen creation that include visible universe and those we just don’t know. Same basic fundamental idea, how any one with limited body and soul can express His infinity? Guru remains aware of it all the time using a word “appaar(Infinite) repeatedly for the Lord. Sikhs do not need to be in race of religious dreamers to prove that our religion is scientific. Isn’t it enough proof that almost on every where in Sree Guru Granth Sahib, universal appeals are there to all humanity regardless the claimed race or color. Why? Answer is to be found in Lord’s being “Nirgun and Sargun( Out of and in the Creation itself) and be NIRVAIR.
Guru Nanak is so big that no one can reduce his vision into small claims expressed in the article. Sorry to disagree strongly with the author )

( Note: I am aware some out there are willing to grill me but my purpose is not to criticize H.S. Virk ji and others who are into this race. Personally I thank him for sharing his thoughts. I just want to say that Sikhism doesn’t need support from science, religion is a choice of the soul, Sikhism guarantees to experience the Inexpressible while being alive if the True Guru is followed from heart. That is enough.)

 

[Archived_Member5]

Guru Nanak’s is undoubtedly sound and wise. It is prudent to be wary PK70 Ji for religious zealots to desist from dogmatism, as it is for zealots to condemn out of hand any path of learning seeking to unravel the mysteries God would wish for us to learn to close the expanse between him and mankind. It is equally condemnable when Atheist or certain Scientist are harshly critical of Religion because of the outspoken, ill considered contempt displayed by certain religious fundamentalists who look upon God and his house of Religion not as a Spiritual; Path but their own personal nirvana to be guarded as voraciously as America guards the freedom and peace of Iraqi’s at this present time. It almost seem sand with plausible concern God and religion is imprisoned by narrow minded bigotry of certain ranks of people who look upon it as their route and right to credibility, something I find deeply sad. Guru Nanak spent his years wandering, sometimes alone in search of his truth, Guru Gobind Ji’s sons were murdered as was he by persons in his own camp. The lives of any Guru or saint have rare been as honoured or lauded during their lifetimes, and for sinister and bizarre reasoning. Whilst I am as wary as you of nouveau half witted, misguided and ill informed novices seeking to submit and distort religious fundamentals if not entirely deconstruct them, I find the religious right as oppressive to true lovers of wisdom and God as its critics. Empirical experience speaks greater volume than any would be so called devotee of God or his truth ....

YouTube - The God Theory

 

[Archived_Member5]

Pk70, with all respect Punjab remains of the state bereft of Independence pillages of tax revenue from cheaply bought farmers stocks. We daren’t dream of regaining the former Punjabi surrounding states that formed its empire yet still remain remiss in our duty to the Motherland of Sikhism. Punjab has undergone assault and attack upon its very shrine externally and internally a great division of its waning power being distributed to the highly respected Rhadoswami sect. Yes some are fully satisfied and happy in their lives whilst others have deep wounds from the oppression of Punjab and the denigration of its citizens of a once grand and respected unique and individual State. We all contribute in our small way to the bettering the present political climate. I feel the dismissal out of hand of Sikhism requiring attendant loyal warriors to its cause rather infantile and self serving, and a tad impertinent on your part to portray your views in such a manner.

‘’When calamity or trial befall, Nanak is your spirit and guide’’. Alas we espy no such heroes surviving the last massacre of a third of Punjab’s men. It may be your personal view and though articulated well is as vacuous and as conceited as your sense of Punjab being fairly treated whether by its won divided ranks of Sikhs or externally by the Hindustani government.

Religion is under attacks from within and without, and toward forming a one global religion we need to strengthen and augment all religions prior to their mergence than feign a boastful attitude of imperviousness to its silent but albeit evident dilemma.

YouTube - Albert Einstein Quotes

 

[Archived_Member5]

It is is also said and witnessed when man is upon the journey calling him to a higher true path he writes of the ineffable unobserved by the ye but present to his sensory perception. Spiritual release from the chains and demons of Maya is the goal. Love, enlightenment and Peace sf God and mans ultimate end and objective. Because some haven’t realised this, or take Nanaks words in moments of contemplation rather than firm decisiveness out of context, this does not mean absolute Truth and objective do not exist, simply that some have yet to understand. That is your journey and your goal, some have reached it most have not, but the end exists for to deny it is to deny the existence of our Creator, from whom we were born and to whom our spirit upon purification and disentanglement, will return. Overt pessimism is purely personal and a tad nihilistic. God is the end the existence of love, truth and light is the hope spurring man towards the eternal universal light ...

 

[pk70]

It is is also said and witnessed when man is upon the journey calling him to a higher true path he writes of the ineffable unobserved by the ye but present to his sensory perception. Spiritual release from the chains and demons of Maya is the goal. Love, enlightenment and Peace if God and mans ultimate end and objective. Because you haven’t realise this or take Nanaks words in moments of contemplation rather than firm decisiveness out of context this does not mean truth and objective do not exist, simply that you haven’t grasped them as yet. That is your journey and your goal, some have reached it most have not, but the end exists for to deny it is to Deny the existence of our creator, from whom we were born and to whom our spirit upon purification and disentanglement, will return. Overt pessimism is purely personal and a tad nihilistic. God is the end the existence of love, truth and light is the hope spurring man towards the eternal universal light ...

Jeetijohal jio
Please forgive me for the misunderstanding, I responded to Sardar H.S. Virk's article only.

 

[Archived_Member5]

Respectfully, PK70 JI, you are forgiven. JJ.

 

[Archived_Member5]

Demographics determine all religions are uniquely steeped culturally in traditions and beliefs. These doctrines create an individualised collective soul. To amalgamate and merge all religions into one culture requires reprogramming thinking minds and innocent followers to a combination of all foundational beliefs and commandments amenable and digestible to all faiths, whilst. Each would require to observe and hold steadfast to their existing beliefs, being retained and affiliated than discarded in any way. This ensures the people are not bereft of the firm premise of a belief system.

The inherent dangers are exploitation by the irreligious and immoral. This breed is voici9ferously vocal and cunningly persuasive in leading society to immoral, debauched regimes of demagoguery. The media being the instigator, propagator and main tool of perversity masquerading as the common denominator binding the minds of all. We observe the weak addicted to its daily doses of inconsequential verbiage. Mindful of the underhand and morally corrupt nature of the media, itself seeking to become a vital part of any orchestration of globalisation, such enterprises are made wary. We also cast our mind to the plight of the recent defamation of the formidably powerful banking industry engineered by the media to destabilise and break its power and hold.

Fear grips the heats of the good, of being overtaken and besieged by alien forces. The task falls to the thinkers and philosophers of each religion, all themselves exiled if found to be waging war against the tyrannical and ruthless might of the media. Atheism an evil collaborated with to a certain degree in an endless good cop- bad cop play of deception misconception is to be avoided and destroyed where so it is found for it leads to no conclusive objective or cause other than a rallying hate campaign against the institution of religion. Food for thought ...

 

[sadhu]

Pk70 i agree with you............

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SCIENTIFIC VISION OF GURUNANAK JI IN SGGS JI.

When Gurrbaani was being revealed thru NANAK Ji that time the science was in in its infancy stage. It is today we are able to comprehend the true message of Gurbaani regarding CREATOR and ITS CREATION.Still we do not convey as what concept of SGGS ji is clearly related to the concept of science.
If we give a serious thought to Gurbaani understanding we would find that it is the concept of QUANTUM PHYShich is truely applicable to THE WORD GURU of SGGS Ji.
If we apply the basic principle of QUANTA and QUANTUM of waves to the WORD GURU we get a different interpretation of the whole of Gurbaani which is going to be very much different from what we propagate.
Gurbaani tells us that THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE IS A WAVE represented by the WORD GURU.Are we really accepting this concept of SGGS ji?
We do not wish to understand the interpretation of Gurbaani in terms of waves of the word GURU as the corresponding meanings would not be matching what we have been preachibng so far.
So it would be important to come to some common understanding in regard to the concept of Science and concept of SGGS ji being Similar.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

prakash s. bagga ji

Would you be kind enough to give a shabad, or more than one shabad, in which this idea is stated? Thank you

Gurbaani tells us that THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE IS A WAVE represented by the WORD GURU.Are we really accepting this concept of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN,
Divine Greetings.

There are several quotes in SggS Ji which refer to the concept of CREATOR as WAVE of THE WORD GURU. I mam going to mention two important quotes from SUKHMANI SAHIB Ji as Under

1 KAEE BAAR PASREO PAASAR
SADAA SADAA IKu EKANKAAR Astapadi...10

2 TISu BHAWAE TAA KARE BISTHAARu
TISu BHAWE TAA EKANKAARu Astapadi ..23

If we analyse the Word EKANKAARu for its meaning we may get the answer

This also sonfirms the principle of science of Theory of EXPANSION and CONTRACTION of the UNIVERSE.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

prakash.s.bagga

I am posting the saloka from which your tuk number 2 is taken


ਆਪਿ ਸਤਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸਤਿ ॥
aap sath keeaa sabh sath ||
आपि सति कीआ सभु सति ॥
He Himself is True, and all that He has made is True.

ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਸਗਲੀ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥
this prabh thae sagalee outhapath ||
तिसु प्रभ ते सगली उतपति ॥
The entire creation came from God.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
this bhaavai thaa karae bisathhaar ||
तिसु भावै ता करे बिसथारु ॥
As it pleases Him, He creates the expanse.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
this bhaavai thaa eaekankaar ||
तिसु भावै ता एकंकारु ॥
As it pleases Him, He becomes the One and Only again.

ਅਨਿਕ ਕਲਾ ਲਖੀ ਨਹ ਜਾਇ ॥
anik kalaa lakhee neh jaae ||
अनिक कला लखी नह जाइ ॥
His powers are so numerous, they cannot be known.

ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
jis bhaavai this leae milaae ||
जिसु भावै तिसु लए मिलाइ ॥
As it pleases Him, He merges us into Himself again.

ਕਵਨ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਵਨ ਕਹੀਐ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
kavan nikatt kavan keheeai dhoor ||
कवन निकटि कवन कहीऐ दूरि ॥
Who is near, and who is far away?

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਆਪ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
aapae aap aap bharapoor ||
आपे आपि आप भरपूरि ॥
He Himself is Himself pervading everywhere.

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਨਾਏ ॥
antharagath jis aap janaaeae ||
अंतरगति जिसु आपि जनाए ॥
One whom God causes to know that He is within the heart

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥੫॥
naanak this jan aap bujhaaeae ||5||
नानक तिसु जन आपि बुझाए ॥५॥
- O Nanak, He causes that person to understand Him. ||5||


Standing out is the idea that Satguruji is the source of all creation, and as part of that creation He merges us into Himself, and we so come to understand Him. What is the connection with quantum theory? In particular, how does this salok give the impression that quanta and quantum are involved? I don't think that it does. Also I do not see anything about the universe expanding and contracting, not even in a metaphoric sense. The salok tells us that the creation expanded according to his hukam. According to his numerous powers. According to His truth.

Within that expansive and evolving creation here we are. And here He is, within our hearts. And so we come to understand that he is the only Truth, and all of his creation is True because he is the One who pervades within it. Beautifully rendered with the line, "Who is near? Who is far away?" He is never far away.

This is only of many saloks within a very long prayer, Sukhmani Sahib, which is about the relationship between Creator and Creation, taken to a very personal level as it points us in the direction of accepting His hukam and finding our true identities within His play.

Or no?

 

[findingmyway]

Page 276
ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਅਰੁ ਖੰਡ ॥ kee kott khaanee ar khandd ||
Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਕਾਸ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥ kee kott akaas brehamandd ||
Many millions are the etheric skies and the solar systems.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ kee kott hoeae avathaar ||
Many millions are the divine incarnations.

ਕਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ kee jugath keeno bisathhaar ||
In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself.

ਕਈ ਬਾਰ ਪਸਰਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥ kee baar pasariou paasaar ||
So many times, He has expanded His expansion.

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕੁ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥ sadhaa sadhaa eik eaekankaar ||
Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ॥ kee kott keenae bahu bhaath ||
Many millions are created in various forms.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਤਿ ॥ prabh thae hoeae prabh maahi samaath ||
From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ thaa kaa anth n jaanai koe ||
His limits are not known to anyone.


My understanding from this is that Waheguru has created everything, the creation is so vast that we may never know the extent of it. Waheguru is self created so requires nothing else. Lives are constantly being created-this may also be in the sense of new births as supported by the fact that it is stated that these lives then merge again with Waheguru. Even if we take it in the sense of the expanding universe, this does not relate to your theory about waves.


Page 294
ਆਪਿ ਸਤਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸਤਿ ॥ aap sath keeaa sabh sath ||
He Himself is True, and all that He has made is True.

ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਸਗਲੀ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥ this prabh thae sagalee outhapath ||
The entire creation came from God.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ this bhaavai thaa karae bisathhaar ||
As it pleases Him, He creates the expanse.

ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ this bhaavai thaa eaekankaar ||
As it pleases Him, He becomes the One and Only again.

ਅਨਿਕ ਕਲਾ ਲਖੀ ਨਹ ਜਾਇ ॥ anik kalaa lakhee neh jaae ||
His powers are so numerous, they cannot be known.

ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥ jis bhaavai this leae milaae ||
As it pleases Him, He merges us into Himself again.

ਕਵਨ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਵਨ ਕਹੀਐ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ kavan nikatt kavan keheeai dhoor ||
Who is near, and who is far away?

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਆਪ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ aapae aap aap bharapoor ||
He Himself is Himself pervading everywhere.

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਨਾਏ ॥ antharagath jis aap janaaeae ||
One whom God causes to know that He is within the heart

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥੫॥ naanak this jan aap bujhaaeae ||5||
- O Nanak, He causes that person to understand Him. ||5||


This tuk is talking about the creator Waheguru, whose powers are so vast that she created everything and can increase that creation if desired but we will never know. Those who are blessed merge with him before death but how can we define who is close and who is far from Waheguru when Waheguru is everywhere! We need to understand the fact that Waheguru is within us. Therefore putting the line you quote in context places doesn't emphasise the expanding universe.


As an aside quantum physics is a difficult field. Taking visible light as an example, characteristics of both waves and bundles of energy (quanta) are displayed so how do we define a wave compared to quanta? Are they mutually exclusive? Are they separate entities or different methods of description? This is not something I am an expert in but none of this was known during the Guru's time and it still isn't so I'm not sure using quantum physics is an appropriate way of interpreting gurbani.

 

[spnadmin]

For Tuk number 1, saloka 7 of Ashtapdee 10, and the point of the saloka again seems to have little to do with quantum theory. Or to put it a different way. Quantum theory in and of itself has no fundamental and necessary truth. It is a human construction for explaining the mechanics of finite systems with mathematical probabilities given by the system itself.

If anything this saloka is defying all human ability to construct a complete picture of Satguruji's infinite reality. Quantum theory was invented by the human mind, named coined by Max Plank, to explain the dual nature of particles and waves at the sub-atomic level.

This saloka says that He is infinite and endless and as he unfolded himself he created every so many dimensions of the Universe. He is the Creator, we emanate from him, and He takes us back into Himself. In this saloka the duality of creator and creation is rejected.

ka-ee kot khaanee ar khand.
Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies.

ka-ee kot akaas barahmand.
Many millions are the etheric skies and the solar systems.

ka-ee kot ho-ay avtaar.
Many millions are the divine incarnations.

ka-ee jugat keeno bisthaar.
In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself.

ka-ee baar pasri-o paasaar.
So many times, He has expanded His expansion.

sadaa sadaa ik aykankaar.
Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.

ka-ee kot keenay baho bhaat.
Many millions are created in various forms.

parabh tay ho-ay parabh maahi samaat.
From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.

taa kaa ant na jaanai ko-ay.
His limits are not known to anyone.

aapay aap naanak parabh so-ay. ||7||
Of Himself, and by Himself, O Nanak, God exists. ||7||

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
I have been simply mentioning a Simple Principle of Quantum Physics applicable to the waves of any nature. The principle of Quanta and Quanyum always holds good in relation to analysis of waves.
Even the theory of BIG BANG is subject to lot of uncertainities. Currently it would be interesting to go thru STRING THEORY of Creation of UNIVERSE.
Be it BING BANG or STRING THEORY ,the basic laws of quantum physics wouls always play vital role in extending the understanding .

For your information pl Quantum Mechanics was developed to deal with infinite system of unknown nature.It is not limited to finite Systems as you have mentioned..

So what is the truth of BIG BANG or STRING THEORY we can simply correlate the conceptsof Science and Gurbaani only in terms of words.So consider about the PHYSICS of Gurbaani words .The PHYSICS of Gurbaani words can be understood only applying or knowing the grammer of the words which probably we would like to avoid.

With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

prakash ji

The infinite truth of Guru's creation cannot be understood through scientific theories, no matter how grand such theories are. They will always be the inventions of human mind. These theories can tell us that all matter is connected and that energy pervades the universe. If they help you connect to the Sat, bless you! However, none of it is equal to the Sat, which is beyond infinity itself.

In quantum theory measurement is critical, and measurement is not possible unless the measured phenomenon occurs in a finite system, which is assumed by the researcher to fit a given scenario of circumstances. It is impossible to measure the infinite. To be sure, in quantum theory, measures are not fixed, and allowances are made for uncertainty. However the uncertainty has boundaries given by probabilities native to the system, i.e., stochastic models are used.

Will come back later to analyze with you quantum theory versus the quantum soup, which may be your reference point.

 

[Siri Kamala]

Ah, but spnadmin ji, the human mind and its understanding is a gift of WaheGuru, yes?
:blinkingkudi:

And while it may not be "The Whole That Is Greater Than the Sum of Its Parts," it is one part, and the things we devise to increase our understanding (even if only by one drop compared to the ocean of what we do not understand) do bring us a tiny bit closer to our own perfect, pure state, and thus closer to reunion with The One Lord, yes?

All this to say, to me, it's a both/and -- it's all good. :grinningkudi: