Sabd Guru On Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)

[vsgrewal48895]

Sabd Guru on Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)​

A Sikh should wear a sword/kirpan of spiritual wisdom .Kirpan’s size has come down from 42 inches to 4 to 6 inches. Its ancient use as a defensive weapon is out of date in view of the present technologically of superior weapons. Should one have to protect self or some one; a more sophisticated weapon can do the job. During my life time I have not seen it being used as a defensive weapon to save some one but is definitly been used often in Gurudwara fights leading to legal consequences and dragging the name of Sikhs in media down the drain. Emotionally wearing it for show of spirituality it can be a few inches long and preferably stitched in. When flying now a days they willingly surrender it otherwise walking or riding a horse will take them years to reach the west.

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.

The word sword/double edged sword has been used in Sabd Guru for Virtue, Spiritual wisdom, Spiritual path, Name of the Akal Purkh. Here few references;

ਤਰਕਸ ਤੀਰ ਕਮਾਣ ਸਾਂਗ ਤੇਗਬੰਦ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਤੁ ॥

Ŧarkas ṯīr kamāṇ sāʼng ṯėgbanḏ guṇ ḏẖāṯ.

The pursuit of virtue is my bow and arrow, my quiver, sword and scabbard. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-17

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਲੈ ਮਨ ਸਿਉ ਲੂਝੈ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

Gi-aan Kharhag Lai Man Si-o Loojhai Mansaa Maneh Samaa-ee Hay.

Taking up the sword of spiritual wisdom, duality struggles with the mind, and hope and desire are smoothed over in her mind. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1022-13

ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ਗਲੀ ਅਤਿ ਭੀੜੀ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਲੀਜੈ ਤਿਲ ਜਿਉ ਪੀੜੀ ॥

Kẖandė ḏẖār galī aṯ bẖīṛī. Lėkẖā lījai ṯil ji­o pīṛī.

The spiritual path is very narrow, like the sharp edge of a sword. When his account is read, he shall be crushed like the sesame seed in the mill. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page,1028-7

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਤਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗੜੁ ਕਟਿਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥

Gur Tay Gi-aan Paa-i-aa At Kharhag Karaaraa. Ḏūjā bẖaram gaṛ kati­ā moh lobẖ ahaʼnkārā.

From the Guru, I have obtained the supremely powerful sword of spiritual wisdom. I have cut down the fortress of duality and doubt, attachment, greed and egotism.
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1087-4

ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਜਮੁ ਮਾਰਿਅੜਾ ਜਮਕਾਲਿ ॥

Gur Gi-aan Kharhag Hath Dhaari-aa Jam Maari-arhaa Jamkaal.

You hold in your hands the sword of the Guru's spiritual wisdom; with this destroyer of death, kill the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 235-4

ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

Kẖanni­ahu ṯikẖī vālahu nikī ėṯ mārag jāṇā.


The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 918-19

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗ ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

Gi­ān kẖaṛag pancẖ ḏūṯ sangẖārė gurmaṯ jāgai so­ė.

With the sword of spiritual wisdom, kill the five demons. Remain awake and aware to the Guru's Teachings. -----Guru Amar Das, Raag Sloke Vaaran To Vadeek, AGGS, Page, 1414-6

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਖੜਗੁ ਸੰਜੋਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੰਟਕੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਵਿਡਾਰਿਆ ॥

Saṯgurū kā kẖaṛag sanjo­o har bẖagaṯ hai jiṯ kāl kantak mār vidāri­ā.

Devotional worship of the Akal Purkh is the sword and armor of the True Guru; and has killed and cast out Death, the torturer. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag, AGGS, Page, 312-13

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਮਾਰਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥

Saṯgur gi­ān kẖaṛag hath ḏīnā jamkankar mār biḏārė.

True Guru has placed the sword of spiritual wisdom in my hands; I have overcome and slain the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Vadhans, AGGS, Page, 574-14

ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਮੇਰ ਤੇਰ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਏਹੁ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ॥

Mān moh mėr ṯėr bibarjiṯ ėhu mārag kẖandė ḏẖār.

To forsake pride, emotional attachment, and the sense of 'mine and yours', is the path of the double-edged sword. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 534-13

ਗਰੀਬੀ ਗਦਾ ਹਮਾਰੀ॥ ਖੰਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਨ ਛਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਵੇਕਾਰੀ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਏਹ ਗਲ ਸਾਰੀ॥

Gareebee Gadda Hamaree, Khanna Sagal Rayn Chaari, Iss Aagai Ko Na Tikai Vaykaaree,Gur Pooray Ayh Gal Saaree.

Humility is my mace, and being the dust of the dust of all men’s feet is my two edged sword, which no evildoer can withstand. The matter has been arranged by the perfect Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 628-13

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੀਨਾ ਦੂਤ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਧਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

Gi-aan Kharhag Kar Kirpaa Deenaa Doot Maaray Kar Dhaa-ee Hay.

In Its Mercy, God has blessed me with the sword of spiritual wisdom; I have attacked and killed the demons. -----Guru Arjan, Maru Sohlay, AGGS, Page, 1072-2

ਵਾਟ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਖਰੀ ਉਡੀਣੀ ॥ ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਿਈਣੀ ॥

vāt hamārī kẖarī udīṇī. Kẖanni­ahu ṯikẖī bahuṯ pi­īṇī.

The righteous spiritual path is very arduous and difficult as it is sharp and narrow like a two edged sword. -----Sheikh Farid, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 794-15

Conclusion:

IMHO a Sikh should wear a sword of spiritual wisdom or a small symbol consistant with local laws fulfilling the religious feelings.

Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, MI

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

imho "Kaal Kntaak" is FEAR OF DEATH...and this FEAR must be killed.(Mariaah)
The Five "vices" only need to be "controlled"...kept on a short leash...and not allowed to over-run..over-power US..we must remain in CONTROL.
A DEAD sex drive would mean no more humans....but one out of control..means more rapes/molestations/assaults. Similarly "Krodh" is an emotion that must not run wild....controlled anger is necessary in WAR - its called BIR-RASS. Krodh in control..running wild..means road rage..road bullies..domestic violence..child beatings..gang warfare..etc..etc....????

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Virinder ji

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.

Unfortunately for some these kakaars have become the symbols of show off and ," I am better than you are" arrogant attitude against those who have not taken Khandei de pahul but are Sikhs in their deeds.

One can envision the time not in too distant future when the "Mini-me" versions of 5 kakaars including a diamond encrusted kachera with a dangling golden nara around people's necks will become the Sikhi nishani.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member4]

Sabd Guru on Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)​

A Sikh should wear a sword/kirpan of spiritual wisdom .Kirpan’s size has come down from 42 inches to 4 to 6 inches. Its ancient use as a defensive weapon is out of date in view of the present technologically of superior weapons. Should one have to protect self or some one; a more sophisticated weapon can do the job. During my life time I have not seen it being used as a defensive weapon to save some one but is definitly been used often in Gurudwara fights leading to legal consequences and dragging the name of Sikhs in media down the drain. Emotionally wearing it for show of spirituality it can be a few inches long and preferably stitched in. When flying now a days they willingly surrender it otherwise walking or riding a horse will take them years to reach the west.

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.

The word sword/double edged sword has been used in Sabd Guru for Virtue, Spiritual wisdom, Spiritual path, Name of the Akal Purkh. Here few references;

ਤਰਕਸ ਤੀਰ ਕਮਾਣ ਸਾਂਗ ਤੇਗਬੰਦ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਤੁ ॥

Ŧarkas ṯīr kamāṇ sāʼng ṯėgbanḏ guṇ ḏẖāṯ.

The pursuit of virtue is my bow and arrow, my quiver, sword and scabbard. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-17

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਲੈ ਮਨ ਸਿਉ ਲੂਝੈ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

Gi-aan Kharhag Lai Man Si-o Loojhai Mansaa Maneh Samaa-ee Hay.

Taking up the sword of spiritual wisdom, duality struggles with the mind, and hope and desire are smoothed over in her mind. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1022-13

ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ਗਲੀ ਅਤਿ ਭੀੜੀ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਲੀਜੈ ਤਿਲ ਜਿਉ ਪੀੜੀ ॥

Kẖandė ḏẖār galī aṯ bẖīṛī. Lėkẖā lījai ṯil ji­o pīṛī.

The spiritual path is very narrow, like the sharp edge of a sword. When his account is read, he shall be crushed like the sesame seed in the mill. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page,1028-7

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਤਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗੜੁ ਕਟਿਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥

Gur Tay Gi-aan Paa-i-aa At Kharhag Karaaraa. Ḏūjā bẖaram gaṛ kati­ā moh lobẖ ahaʼnkārā.

From the Guru, I have obtained the supremely powerful sword of spiritual wisdom. I have cut down the fortress of duality and doubt, attachment, greed and egotism.
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1087-4

ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਜਮੁ ਮਾਰਿਅੜਾ ਜਮਕਾਲਿ ॥

Gur Gi-aan Kharhag Hath Dhaari-aa Jam Maari-arhaa Jamkaal.

You hold in your hands the sword of the Guru's spiritual wisdom; with this destroyer of death, kill the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 235-4

ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

Kẖanni­ahu ṯikẖī vālahu nikī ėṯ mārag jāṇā.


The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 918-19

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗ ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

Gi­ān kẖaṛag pancẖ ḏūṯ sangẖārė gurmaṯ jāgai so­ė.

With the sword of spiritual wisdom, kill the five demons. Remain awake and aware to the Guru's Teachings. -----Guru Amar Das, Raag Sloke Vaaran To Vadeek, AGGS, Page, 1414-6

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਖੜਗੁ ਸੰਜੋਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੰਟਕੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਵਿਡਾਰਿਆ ॥

Saṯgurū kā kẖaṛag sanjo­o har bẖagaṯ hai jiṯ kāl kantak mār vidāri­ā.

Devotional worship of the Akal Purkh is the sword and armor of the True Guru; and has killed and cast out Death, the torturer. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag, AGGS, Page, 312-13

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਮਾਰਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥

Saṯgur gi­ān kẖaṛag hath ḏīnā jamkankar mār biḏārė.

True Guru has placed the sword of spiritual wisdom in my hands; I have overcome and slain the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Vadhans, AGGS, Page, 574-14

ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਮੇਰ ਤੇਰ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਏਹੁ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ॥

Mān moh mėr ṯėr bibarjiṯ ėhu mārag kẖandė ḏẖār.

To forsake pride, emotional attachment, and the sense of 'mine and yours', is the path of the double-edged sword. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 534-13

ਗਰੀਬੀ ਗਦਾ ਹਮਾਰੀ॥ ਖੰਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਨ ਛਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਵੇਕਾਰੀ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਏਹ ਗਲ ਸਾਰੀ॥

Gareebee Gadda Hamaree, Khanna Sagal Rayn Chaari, Iss Aagai Ko Na Tikai Vaykaaree,Gur Pooray Ayh Gal Saaree.

Humility is my mace, and being the dust of the dust of all men’s feet is my two edged sword, which no evildoer can withstand. The matter has been arranged by the perfect Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 628-13

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੀਨਾ ਦੂਤ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਧਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

Gi-aan Kharhag Kar Kirpaa Deenaa Doot Maaray Kar Dhaa-ee Hay.

In Its Mercy, God has blessed me with the sword of spiritual wisdom; I have attacked and killed the demons. -----Guru Arjan, Maru Sohlay, AGGS, Page, 1072-2

ਵਾਟ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਖਰੀ ਉਡੀਣੀ ॥ ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਿਈਣੀ ॥

vāt hamārī kẖarī udīṇī. Kẖanni­ahu ṯikẖī bahuṯ pi­īṇī.

The righteous spiritual path is very arduous and difficult as it is sharp and narrow like a two edged sword. -----Sheikh Farid, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 794-15

Conclusion:

IMHO a Sikh should wear a sword of spiritual wisdom or a small symbol consistant with local laws fulfilling the religious feelings.

Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, MI

Majority of these shabads speak of the inner battle and Guru Sahib has used the sword as a metaphor to say fight the 5 theives. if a person comes to a conclusion that a kirpan is not needed because of the above shabad then they have distorted Gurbani to fit their concept, instead of reading Gurbani and then trying to understand the tuk in the shabad.

As Guru Sahib has told Sikhs to keep the metaphorical sword fighting the five theives from within and keep the kirpan on the outside as to protect yourself and others from harmful people. The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control. Both swords are needed and they serve there purpose to defend.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Tej Ji,

Thanks For your comments. It is interesting to observe that I am sharing my experiences or learning’s and other are welcome to share theirs-the purpose of the forum, but it seems to me (may be I am wrong) that I am being attacked directly or indirectly.

I respect all the 5 K's and Sikh Baptism but one should prepare one's self to be worthy of it. You have to prepare the field as a farmer your body and mind by subjugating lower instincts and developing higher instincts with evolvement of good character before jumping on Baptism.

Let me tell you a little happening. Few years ago I just finished writing about "Truth". I asked Manjit (my wife) that let us make an attempt to live the truth. She pleasantly agreed. In about 15 minutes telephone rings and ID tells me it is Republican Party (asking for donation). With out thinking what we have discussed before I blurted out-tell them I am not home and she did. Getting off the phone she shouted that I could not live the Truth even for 15 minutes.

This is what I am talking about 5 K's, Turban, Baptism and when caught for a crime/quarrel then the Sikh Leaders say that they are being profiled.

One has to become a good candidate to become a Khalsa (pure) by cleaning the inner filth first;

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
Regards.

Virinder

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Majority of these shabads speak of the inner battle and Guru Sahib has used the sword as a metaphor to say fight the 5 theives. if a person comes to a conclusion that a kirpan is not needed because of the above shabad then they have distorted Gurbani to fit their concept, instead of reading Gurbani and then trying to understand the tuk in the shabad.

As Guru Sahib has told Sikhs to keep the metaphorical sword fighting the five theives from within and keep the kirpan on the outside as to protect yourself and others from harmful people. The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control. Both swords are needed and they serve there purpose to defend.

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The difference between us is outer & inner. For me inner comes first following Guru Nanak in Asa the Vaar;
ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
Anḏrahu jẖūṯẖe paij bāhar ḏunī▫ā anḏar fail. Aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath je nāvėh uṯrai nāhī mail. Jinĥ pat anḏar bāhar guḏaṛ ṯe bẖale sansār. Ŧinĥ nehu lagā rab seṯī ḏekẖnĥe vīcẖār.

Those who are false within, and honorable on the outside, are very common in this world. Even though they may bathe at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, still, their filth does not depart. Those who have silk on the inside and rags on the outside, are the good ones in this world. They embrace love for the Akal Purkh, and contemplate beholding It.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 473-15
Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Dear Tej Ji,

Thanks For your comments. It is interesting to observe that I am sharing my experiences or learning’s and other are welcome to share theirs-the purpose of the forum, but it seems to me (may be I am wrong) that I am being attacked directly or indirectly.

I respect all the 5 K's and Sikh Baptism but one should prepare one's self to be worthy of it. You have to prepare the field as a farmer your body and mind by subjugating lower instincts and developing higher instincts with evolvement of good character before jumping on Baptism.

Let me tell you a little happening. Few years ago I just finished writing about "Truth". I asked Manjit (my wife) that let us make an attempt to live the truth. She pleasantly agreed. In about 15 minutes telephone rings and ID tells me it is Republican Party (asking for donation). With out thinking what we have discussed before I blurted out-tell them I am not home and she did. Getting off the phone she shouted that I could not live the Truth even for 15 minutes.

This is what I am talking about 5 K's, Turban, Baptism and when caught for a crime/quarrel then the Sikh Leaders say that they are being profiled.

One has to become a good candidate to become a Khalsa (pure) by cleaning the inner filth first;

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
Regards.

Virinder

Virinder Ji,

Guru Fateh.

For me Khalsa means one who is pure hearted. Nothing more. And in order to be pure hearted one needs a continues action of breeding goodness within. That is why Guru Nanak used the word "Vin gun kitei Bhagat nah HOYEI",not BANEI or to have become because words like Bhagat, Brahmagyani etc etc that are used in Gurbani are not used as TITLES but traits of continuous actions. It is like the spring of water. The moment the water stops coming, it is just a hole in the ground. Our Gurus used the right language and showed us the subtle difference through this beautiful poetry.

I want to thank you for your dedication and hard work and only Ik Ong kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Some Sikhs will never cease playing God by judging others.

So I would suggest, you carry on what you are doing. You are doing a great service to all of us. Atleast I am learning a lot from your hardwork and dedication and depth. It is your journey as it is the journey of the individual and each of us carries our own spiritual torch.

Tejwant Singh

PS:- Do you remember a Sikh candidate from Illinois if I am not mistaken who ran as a Senator from the GOP in the primaries many years ago and lost? I think he was a doctor.

 

[Archived_Member4]

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The difference between us is outer & inner. For me inner comes first following Guru Nanak in Asa the Vaar;
ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
Anḏrahu jẖūṯẖe paij bāhar ḏunī▫ā anḏar fail. Aṯẖsaṯẖṯirath je nāvėh uṯrai nāhī mail. Jinĥ pat anḏar bāhar guḏaṛṯe bẖale sansār. Ŧinĥ nehu lagā rab seṯī ḏekẖnĥe vīcẖār.

Those who are false within, and honorable on the outside, are very common in this world. Even though they may bathe at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, still, their filth does not depart. Those who have silk on the inside and rags on the outside, are the good ones in this world. They embrace love for the Akal Purkh, and contemplate beholding It.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 473-15
Cordially,

Virinder

Virinder, I'm advise you to read my post again. I have stated that:

The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control.

I never said outer sword comes first, you have misintrepreted what I said as you can see above what I said from the start.

Thanks for the shabad though

 

[sadhu]

virendr ji

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.

You are right.
I agree with you absolutely.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.

Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, MI

What is the point of wearing it around the neck in a chain? And who said the Kirpan can't be used as for defensive purposes? Also why don't those people that wear it around there neck as a small symbol put a little Kachera in there as well and while there at it put some hair in the necklace aswell and to finish it off put a little kara in there aswell. Then they don't have to keep there hair uncut, wear a kirpan, a kara, carry a comb, and they can go commando style, without a kacheraa.

If you wear the 5 kakkar then wear them the way Guru Sahib gave them to us. And about the kirpan lenght, the 4 inch or 6 inch can still help defend a person when in need to defend oneself or another. You don't need a weapon to defend yourself, but Guru Sahib's Sikhs have the right to wear one and every Sikh should execrise this right.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Teji Ji,

I can find out who ran as a senator from Illinois but I do not remember. I just posted one Swaeeya of Guru Gibind Singh Ji on Khalsa Pure & impure of your comment but here it is for ready refrence;
ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Jaagat Joat Japai Nis Basar Ayk Bina Man Naik Na Aanai.Pooran Prem Partit Sajai Barat Gor Marhi Matt Bhool Na Manai.Ttheerathh Daan Dayaa Tap Sanjam Ayk Binaa Neh Ayk Pashhaanai.Pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai.

He, who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind, and practices his vow with whole hearted affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, Hindu monuments and monasteries; and does not recognize anyone else except One God, not even the bestowal of charities, performance of merciful acts, austerities and restraint on pilgrim-stations; the perfect light of the God illuminates his heart, then one comes to know immaculate Pure from impure. -----DG, Page, 712

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Guru Piayario Jios,

The "Inner sword of GYAAN"...and the Outer sword complement each other...and THAT is the entire philosophy of MIRI-PIRI. One cannot do without the other. There simply cannot be ONLY the Inner sword of Gyaan...and no need for any self defence when the "Sant" is attacked..because the KHALSA is defender of the oppressed..the weak....We Sikhs have no concept of "turning the other cheek so as to get a stronger whack from the aggressor....Sikhs return the "favour" in a much stronger version,,always.
I can well live with the assertion that the outer Sword is MUCH MUCH EASIER to carry..just BUY one from a Krpan shop....BUT the INNER SWORD may not materialise even after decades of effort....a person may become 70 or even 90 years old and still not have the "inner sword sharp enough /long enough to cut the tiniest bit of haumaii/lust/kaam/krodh/jealousy etc welling inside of him

2. Sword/Khanda as a modern weapon has been disparaged many times...yet when the Queen ( for example) wants to KNIGHT someone...she doesnt place a Nuclear Warhead on his shoulder..but uses a sword. A SIKH in the US Army or in his F35/Nighthawk F17 would certainly use the Nuclear Warhead attached to his plane...and NOT insist on using his Kirpan !!
There is a PLACE for the KIRPAN?SWORD?KHANDA and there is a place for "modern weapons".
Guru Ji in Anandpur Battles reportedly used a wooden Cannon...and also used RIFLES etc. This shows that even Guru Ji knew the value and time and palce for any weapon..and could have mandated the RIFLE as a personal weapon...or an AK47..or the Stinger Missile...
The truth is the SWORD has avery special place as a SYMBOL of POWER..its still used all over the world as a SYMBOL in places where this required...in Malaysia also the Guard of Honour for visiting dignatories gives " shade with naked swords"...as required..and this is certainly done....as SYMBOLIC.
3. ALL KHALSA are SIKHS..but not all Sikhs can be KHALSA. That is reality but the KHALSA will always remain....and they will always be in a minscule minority..and these minority will never give up their RIGHTS..dastaars, full length kirpans...and they are getting more and more acceptance..even in the Western countries....shows their resilience in the face of much adversity and even suggestions that their kirpan can be tiny/sewed up..etc..THAT sort of "symbolism" is utterly ridiculous..it doesnt fool anyone.Kirpan _ small or tiny or sewed up is NOT Mandatory for SIKHS....only for the KHALSA....so sikhs who dont feel comfortable with it are not forced to carry it..just as no immigration will accept a "photocopied passport"..no self respecting KHALSA will accept a sewed up tiny kirpan. Its a fruitless task to carry on " defence" of a photocopied passport.:happy:

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Singh Ji,

With due apologies, I have not seen or read it being used to defend or save any one but definiutly have heard,read, seen being used in Gurudwara fights or commit murder during my life time.

I have also seen Sikhs being insulted in media and dragged through courts and to jail. I also have seen because the removal of it Sikhs have been denied travel or to meet other political leaders. It does not make one a good Sikh. To become a good Sikh one has to earn it through deeds and not external show. Please wait for my post how to become a better human?

Thanks for your debate any how.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

its a simple matter really....we keep on debating and making it sound all so "argumentative".
A simple example of a policeman. He wears a Uniform...its essential..its necessary...and he takes an OATH to honour it.
BUT..everyone knows just the "uniform" doesnt make one a policeman...he has to have internal VALUES...honesty/integrity/compassion/hardworking...etc etc etc to be a GOOD policeman.
He can go "undercover"...sans his uniform...and still be a good policeman...and he can wear his uniform..and be on the Take/corrupt/interfere with evidence/fake encounters/plant evidence...in other words be a BAD policeman..... we can "blame" his UNIFORM..we can blame his "weak internal value system"... For EACH case of a BAD policeman wearing his uniform...i can cite many thousands of Good Policeman wearing uniforms...and "BAD" undervover policeman not wearing uniforms...
So we have to accept that there are BAD "Khalsa" ( who wear the Khalsa uniform just for show)..and Equally BAD "Sikhs" who are clean shaven - both out and in and BAD in and out...and who go on blaming the khalsa uniform for ills they see and do...
Its the case of the Six Blind men of Hindoostan who went to see the elephant....no solution to this...
:welcome:

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Giani Ji,

Please do not take it personally. I am not against the Uniform which acts as a deterrent for illegal or immoral activities and is the right step towards spiritual growth but is useless until and unless inner filth is removed. Unfortunately it is the individual who knows his self. It is an academic debate and a response to an argumentative individual.

The fact of the matter is bad Khalsa should avoid the media, while other Sikhs do not harm the faith in the media at large.

ਜੇ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਚੰਗਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਿ ਪੁੰਨਹੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਈਐ ॥​

Je loṛėh cẖanga āpṇā kar punnhu nīcẖ saḏā▫ī▫ai.​

If you yearn for goodness, then perform good deeds and feel humble.​

Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-16​

There is a battle that goes on inside people. The battle is between two things;

1. Evil.
2. Good.

Evil is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

Good is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The question is which one wins?

“The one you feed”​

Regards.

Virinder

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dear Singh Ji,
With due apologies, I have not seen or read it being used to defend or save any one but definiutly have heard,read, seen being used in Gurudwara fights or commit murder during my life time.

This statement has no meaning because a Gurdwara fight can break out and a person could have used it in self-defense. Also the same could be said about the murder, it could have been self-defense. Until the Sangat here and I don't get further information about these two situations you presented, we can't come to a conclusion that they were not in self-defense. So go further into this statement.

Also just because you have not read the Kirpan being used in self defense or to protect others doesn't mean it has not been used as self-defense or to defend others. I always tell my brother this, your not the center of the earth.

And to counter this, I have heard it been used in self-defense when a Singhs family, was being harassed and himself by a angry mob. In this real life event the Singh protected himself and his family.

I have also seen Sikhs being insulted in media and dragged through courts and to jail. I also have seen because the removal of it Sikhs have been denied travel or to meet other political leaders. It does not make one a good Sikh. To become a good Sikh one has to earn it through deeds and not external show.

Virinder, Guru Sahib wouldn't even take the Kirpan off when he would take a bath. Here's what I already said on this issue, no need to write it all out again. I'm give you my quote from this thread I repeated to you twice, this will be the third and from a different thread; Hair, where I make it even more crystal clear.

'The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control.'

This one from the hair thread:
'For me it does not matter as Guru Sahib taught us, if you cut your hair, kept your hair intact, and if you have taken Amrit. The important thing in all three of these types of people is that they still have to progress on the path of Sikhi; and some are closer than others to attain the state of Khalsa. A person that cuts hair and doesn't follow Sikhi, a person that kept hair and doesn't follow Sikhi, and a person that took Amrit and just wears the 5 kakkars are all in one category because their life has become a ritual. These last three because of their ignorance have thought for some reason all they need to do is keep practicing equality and deny rest of Sikhi teaching, kept hair but denied rest of teaching, took Amrit, but didn't bother to progress, take anyone of them and they are practicing a ritual.

Progress and keep learning is what we all are doing. In this progress all I ask for is, if you don't want to progress any further, than don't try to justify it because there is no need and this is between you and Guruji. ( this includes all of the sangat here, which includes me neither am I saying a person is doing this.) When I declared myself Sikh of the Guru then I took a oath and promised Guru ji i will not stop on this path till I reach the state of Khalsa, with your(Guru ji's) kirpa that is my lifes goal as you(Guru ji) taught me to give my head for the teachings. I follow my Guru ji and don't pay attention to public opinion.'

 

[spnadmin]

vsgrewal ji

I am glad that you mentioned the issue of gurdwara fights. There are several examples on the Internet. it seems that the continents of the earth are populated with 'messengers of truth" who are legends in their own minds. When a sangat has invited a scholar to speak and the topic is not to the liking of the squads of truth as they have self-designated they do things like chant the name of Waheguru over and over to drown out the speaker over the microphone.

This is not exactly what I would call the flower of Sikhism -- but it is a trend -- as if the ends justify the means. Take the name of the Divine Akaal and use it in vain -- if the cause is "good ." And then everyone has a good laugh and makes a movie for YouTube.

Please stay in your groove...:welcome: (means don't let your message become dull)
Antonia

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Singh Ji,

Please read my multiple threads posted today and you will find the answers to your questions.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal

 

[Archived_Member4]

Dear Singh Ji,

Please read my multiple threads posted today and you will find the answers to your questions.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal

Virinder, I have no questions just asking you to go indepth on the Gurdwara fighting and murder statement you made.

Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Singh Ji,

I have no interest in this dialogue and subject. There is no Gurdwara of Sikhs where there has not been a fight or legal consequences. I stay out of these but these facts you get in to the web and find out. My interest is in spirituality not material physical objects. The materialistic mind degrades the spiritual to the carnal by wearing material symbols of any kind. This leads to dragging the higher nature to the lower, instead of being purified and lifted up by the spiritual wisdom.

Thanks.

Virinder