Religion - A Shroud For Evil

[makkanz]

In one of your earlier post you said that your father told you that hindu idols should be broken and now you are saying that you were told that all faiths are equal.Is breaking the idols of hindu god's mean's equality to you.

The overriding beliefs instilled in me say that all faiths and religions are equal. As i said before, my mother is the leader in my household and has primarily been responsible for our upbringing.

O.K. please tell me how many muslim families are ready to accept if their daughter's marry hindu's,sikhs or christian's.

pbbly even fewer. That i belive is culture rather than religion. Islam (and i am not an active practiser) from what i understand, says that the person you marry should believe in a greater power. I believe sikhs share that belief in a greater power.

Why are you blaming the action of jagir kaur on sikhism.If i start posting crime's of muslims then it will be consisdered as spamming as the numbers are so high.

I am not. I think you need to read my post carefully and understand what i am saying rather take a soundbite and respond to it. In theory Religion --> Framework for living --> A set of values. So if that is the case, why do people (of all faiths) carry out such atrocities. To me, they carry them out and use their beliefs as something to reassure them that overall they are good people. They hide behind them .. hence a shroud .. do you get it?

Maakanz here is small example for you

BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'

There are many examples of this, and given the sheer numbers of muslims in this world and overall the level of poverty and hardship amongst them ... i wouldnt be at all surprised that % of these things is higher. You are missing the point .... What i am saying is here ultimately, beyond my initial point, is that religion is a great divider of people and the trigger/shroud for much evil in this world. We are all guilty.

 

[spnadmin]

Makkans ji,

You know that if you took most world religions, maybe there are some exceptions like Tibetan Buddhism, and studied their social history in detail, you would have a list of many brutal acts against humanity.

There are times in history when a world religion has called individuals to arms in order to brutalize other peoples. However, Sikhism has a clean record in this department. When Sikhs have been called to arms it has been to defend themselves "after all other means have been exhausted."

The actions of individuals are reflections on them as individuals -- most of the time. Spiritual ignorance takes over. Anger, greed, envy, lust, and ego take over.

 

[kds1980]

I am not. I think you need to read my post carefully and understand what i am saying rather take a soundbite and respond to it. In theory Religion --> Framework for living --> A set of values. So if that is the case, why do people (of all faiths) carry out such atrocities. To me, they carry them out and use their beliefs as something to reassure them that overall they are good people. They hide behind them .. hence a shroud .. do you get it?

Maakanz here are my points

First of all stop painting all religions with same color.Religions and their sects are different
some are orthodox while others are quite liberal some are also voilent

Secondly we human beings are social animals and we live in groups.This group could be of nationality,religion,caste ,race etc Now your question is why people do it? The simple answer is that each person has some respect in his group.for example a person who is not a good sikh at heart will try to show others that he is good sikh because he does not want to loose his respect in his society.The biggest insult to asian subcontinental society for a family is if a their daughter decide's to marry outside religion This is also applicable if
the family has caste mentality and their daughter decide's to marry outside caste.Its easy for a girl to marry outside religion but its nearly impossible for parents to face society.
They just become object of fun and gossip among relative's and friends.so its not surprising if some parent's choose to kill their daughters because of social respect.For some people respect in their society is biggest thing even bigger than their childre's.

 

[makkanz]

so .. i guess then Sikhishm, along with islam, christianity and judaism is not that much different .. poisoned by the people who practise it.

Funny .. because the fundamentals of the sikh beliefs from what i hear are designed to address exactly just these failings in other religions .. and hence the claims to superiority ... ill founded claims from all i have read, heard, seen and experienced.

Thank you .. this has been very educational.

 

[kds1980]

so .. i guess then Sikhishm, along with islam, christianity and judaism is not that much different .. poisoned by the people who practise it.

Funny .. because the fundamentals of the sikh beliefs from what i hear are designed to address exactly just these failings in other religions .. and hence the claims to superiority ... ill founded claims from all i have read, heard, seen and experienced.

Thank you .. this has been very educational.

I think you very well know that it is written in sikh code of conduct that a sikh should marry sikh

 

[makkanz]

I think you very well know that it is written in sikh code of conduct that a sikh should marry sikh

yes i do ... is not also written that a sikh must not drink alcohol? From what i have seen ... a majority of sikhs do ...

The point i am making is that people pick and choose the bits they like and dont like from a faith ..

The basic problem with your statement ... "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... it is the denial of personal freedom. And when it is acceptable beviour to turn a blind eye to these moral crimes .. it means that society as a whole has failed to live up to what it stands for in general ...

I find it amazing how easily people can forget, when blinded by their faith, that we are all human and one race ... tell me ... these boundaries that religions place between people ... how are they different from apartheid in South Africa ... or the tribal wars between the tutsi's and hutus ...

as you made the point .. we are a society with social groups ... I will make a point to you that takes a slightly broader view ...

1) Look at how current societies have formed over the years ... if you look at how people spread throughout this planet ... e.g. the lapita's as they colonised the south pacific .. becoming ... tongans, samoans, maoris, aboriginies etc ...

2) How the religions have developed ... if i am not mistaken .. judaism was the first religion ? .. Islam, christianity, sikhism followed ... most of the older religions (and their sects) have similar prophets etc ... I know you will make a claim sikhism is different etc .. but no one faith has quantifiable facts to prove theirs is correct .. not one ...

3) How social groups are a combination of their faiths and their social practices ... within a certain set of people .. there are the followers .. usually 90-95% .. who will follow whatever the group does and find it unacceptable to step outside the social norms .. and then there are the leaders. The followers also practice their religion/faith as prescribed (e.g. sikh must marry a sikh). Tell me where the sikh faith would be if your first guru was a follower ???? you would not exist. Only a very small percentage of people are independant thinkers ...

4) The other problem is that most faiths are written in a old or barely spoken language or detail that a majority of the followers either donot understand the language properly and donot have the time to read it thoroughly ... so what happens ... we listen to what our elders tell us ... people who might have read a bit more ....

5) we are people .. We are conditioned to interpret things in a certain way ... as we are influenced by what we have learnt and experienced while growing up .... so a statement we may read .. automatically as adults, we try to relate it to what we know .. and if we cant link it to something we have trouble understanding it ... so taking your example of "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... there are some basic fundamental problems with that literal interpretation ... outside the obvious one of personal freedom ... Let me try to help you relate to it another way ...

it is common practice in the muslim world .. especially in pakistan where i come from .. to marry within the family ... the basic reasons are (and as like everyone else .. it is my interpretaion) .. firstly people from a similar group have similar values .. they generally have a smiliar level of education .. similar wealth .. similar outlook on life .. and hence when you marry someone in your family .. u have a lot in common .... so less likely to have conflict ...

Now, obviously .. through science and genetics .. we know why it is genetically a bad idea to marry in your own family .... so when you say .. a sikh must marry as sikh ... what you are really recanting is more a literal translation and interpretation of a set of issues that this part of the faith is designed to address . Now taking a much wider view ... try to relate it to the fundamental flaw in the practice of marrying in your own family ... and then relate it back to some of problems sikhs & muslims (especially the hardcore ones) are having integrating into non-indian/sikh/muslim society.

Religious and societal blindness is a common problem throughout the world. A cause for a majority of wars around the world, much of the organised crimes against humanity has been committed in the name of religion ...

We all need to open your eyes ... take these shutters off .. the fog that is blinding us from the simple truth ...

Religion has been used as a divider of people ... well known fact throughout the history of our kind .. and yet the simple fact remains that we have the same ancestors ... unless you are saying that sikhs were directly created by god?

We are all people .. homosapiens ... we have 2 eyes, a nose, 2 ears, 2 arms, a couple of legs .... we are the same ... at one point we were in a much smaller group that was all together ... since then, we have spread out across our world ... but we have the same origins .. you only need to look in the mirror. If your skin is a bit darker .. its pbbly because your ancestors were from an area with a lot of sun or didnt wear head coverings .. and as per nature ... the human body adapted and produces more melanin .. or if you are fat .. its because when the human race went through an iceage .. it adapted to storing a large amount of fat to combat starvation ... an ability we no longer need but still have ....

I am a strong believer in god. There is but only one God. We were created all as equals and are all equal in God's eyes and should treat each other as equals and with the respect they deserve ... and yes that would include our daughters who might want to marry someone outside the cultural norm ...

 

[Sinister]

Makkans ji,

You know that if you took most world religions, maybe there are some exceptions like Tibetan Buddhism, and studied their social history in detail, you would have a list of many brutal acts against humanity.

There are times in history when a world religion has called individuals to arms in order to brutalize other peoples. However, Sikhism has a clean record in this department. When Sikhs have been called to arms it has been to defend themselves "after all other means have been exhausted."

The actions of individuals are reflections on them as individuals -- most of the time. Spiritual ignorance takes over. Anger, greed, envy, lust, and ego take over.

sorry aad ji im going to have to give you the two thumbs down for this post:

i guess all peace initiatives with the passengers of Air India Flight 182 were exhausted before some ‘clean record’ sikhs blew them into tiny peaces?

or Bhindranwale's 'calls to arm' were entirely defensive measures and not provocative in any nature.

and I suppose Raja Ranjit Singh marched to Kabul with 100,000 men for a peace initiative? The same man who shrouded a temple in amritsar with a thick armour of gold...now i wonder where all that wealth came from??? i wonder i wonder? I wonder why it's still there? I wonder how this is the holiest place for sikhs? (a temple whose gold is bound with wine, blood, lust, greed, tears, sweat and ambition)
here is a fact that is denied by no individual...but unexamined and pushed to the back of the head by all 'Sikhs'. Religious philosophy itself, innately, has the capacity to organize (the sangat) ... thus you cannot treat it as individuals performing actions. Religion is a political entity as much as a spiritual one...and that is what Makkanz is referring to. Religion allows for group action/initiative and under this banner they persist in violent and reprehensible behaviour, sometimes even claimed to be sanctified by god himself. (bhindaranwale). The bottom line; MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY LOOKS FOR, AND PROMOTES HIERARCHAL STRUCTURE…and that is its primary sin. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

the same is true for any other school of thought...the stalinist's, the nazi's…they did not do what they did, on the basis of being individuals but they received the courage to commit their atrocities on the basis of group solidarity and strong hierarchal ties.

We can draw the rosy picture that these handful of people are lost sheep amongst a diverse crowd and not truthful products of the Sikh faith? or perhaps all these men/women were misdirected in their practice of sikhi? (the entitlement defense is legitimate, but not sane, a little mischievous if you ask me)

what Makkanz is saying, is not new to philosophy and to objective viewers of theistic religion (I agree with much of what he relays in this thread)

When examined closely religion forms a complex network of internal tensions. When a religion enters service it contains the usual representation of human behaviour and feeling; yet it also absorbs into its stream of movement the hard and perhaps insoluble pellets of flawless ideology. The conflict is inescapable: Religion tries to confront experience in its immediacy and closeness, while its ideology is by its nature exclusive.

Religion is deeply divisive, psychologically demanding, and demeaning. It is, by its nature, an assault on humanism…an entity that frowns upon most natural emotions and impulses as negative.
And Makkanz’s post is a prime example of how everyone united under the banner of sikhi to challenge his message and protect that which is dyer to not only you but also the person next to you. Some of you are not acting as individuals at this instant, and in this unity of message lies the group cohesion that you claim does not play a pivotal role in determining the outcome of behaviour (both negative behaviour and positive as an outcome).

Even the sikh war cry: 'Jo Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal'. Roughly means, "He/She Be Blessed Who says Truth is God". There is significance in this war cry…can anyone connect the dots?

ALLAH HU AKBAR? (God is great)
Notice the reference to god in both war cries.

christian armies used similiar rallying cries: "God, wills it" (a common one)

Here is another quote and the assault on humanism continues:
In the end each individual has to find No-hatred No-enmity in himself/herself.

The extent in which ‘Flawless ideology’ can stretch our minds to these levels is further proof of the insoluble pellets of religion. It is nothing short of insulting reason and a state of continuous manufactured fiction, Utopia (ie; A lie or a wash).

To Makkanz:
PS: Islam is the most dangerous religious institution constructed by men…because it is one of the most divisive and highly motivated religions I have come across ...sikhi does not even hold candle to its atrocities on human rights, free speech, and most importantly sanity. My respect for Sikhism far exceeds my respect for Islam (that is if you believe, I had any respect for these faiths to begin with).

 

[kds1980]

Makkanz

yes i do ... is not also written that a sikh must not drink alcohol? From what i have seen ... a majority of sikhs do ...

The point i am making is that people pick and choose the bits they like and dont like from a faith ..

The basic problem with your statement ... "a sikh must marry a sikh" ... it is the denial of personal freedom. And when it is acceptable beviour to turn a blind eye to these moral crimes .. it means that society as a whole has failed to live up to what it stands for in general ...

You cannot accept 100% sikhs to be religious and practising.only a tiny minority actually pracatice religion.others are just part of social sikh community.I already explained to you that marrying outside religion is much more social issue but it looks like you don't want to understand

I find it amazing how easily people can forget, when blinded by their faith, that we are all human and one race ... tell me ... these boundaries that religions place between people ... how are they different from apartheid in South Africa ... or the tribal wars between the tutsi's and hutus ...

Yes we are a human race then why do we have different countries.Are all the countries
created on the basis of religion.I am sure the if you ask people of developed countries who blame religion for divison to allow millions of jobless people of asia to work their they will immidiately take u-turn on this issue.so stop blaming religion for division there are plenty of causes for division among humans.Even there are plenty of division in religion itself.

 

[Astroboy]

Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.


I have learned two lessons in my life: first, there are no sufficient literary, psychological, or historical answers to human tragedy, only moral ones. Second, just as despair can come to one another only from other human beings, hope, too, can be given to one only by other human beings.


If you lose hope, somehow you lose the vitality that keeps life moving, you lose that courage to be, that quality that helps you go on in spite of it all. And so today I still have a dream.

The Trumpet of Conscience​