One Infinite Creator In Sikhism, What Does It Mean?

[ZaraONE]

Just to add to this thread of wonderful comments ... energy flows where thought is focused i.e. "There is ONE awareness among all created beings" Guru Nanak stipulates this very clearly. He also says hints and clues are shown if we pay attention. There is no 2 minds or feelings or emotions we all affect each other. I like the word "resonance" as in energy it flows everywhere. Atoms, electrons, photons, neutrons who knows what else bumping colliding all that wonderful stuff. I am not a scientist but I did start to listen to what was unfolding around me and then realized a Universal Intelligence appears to have a "characteristic" playful if we desire to see it that way like hide and seek or tag your it!

Dr Harbhajan Seth posted right after my note above... remember "all is connected on the same thread" "Everything is strung upon the ONE string of the Lord" - Guru Arjan Dev 108 ... I call this the REAL SuperString Theory if scientists want some fun or the M-Theory as 11 dimensions identified ... M is number 13 - in the words of Guru Ji thera, thera, thera (all yours, all yours, all yours) and Guru Ji is number 11. "The riddles and hints are given, and he sees them with his eyes" - 217 Sometimes we forget that ALL languages belong to ONE and also remember when Guru Govind Singh wrote his poetry he "created new words" by fusion. There was a really good reason for this when we contemplate the deeper meaning.

Yesterday a booked arrived I had ordered The Magical Approach Seth Speaks about the art of creative living from a non-physical being standpoint. Note the name Seth! This material was a head of its time in the 70's. A neighbour had given me one of these books a few years ago by Jane Roberts "Seth Speaks the validity of the immortal soul" and the work is now stored at Yale University in the US. Readers can make their own assumptions but I feel I should share as the "connection" or synchronicity has clearly shown up for a reason.

The Adi Granth is an ocean of wisdom. Living life creatively is something we all should aspire to and then sharing our experience which is where we all grow.

This video popped into my journey and I think is worth watching to get another perspective - Jill Bolte - How it feels to have a stroke by a Brain Scientist.
How it feels to have a stroke - YouTube

Funny thing I had a Kirtan music CD produced and the irish couple that recorded for us said she had just sang with Jill Bolte and I had Jill's video on my website. See how close these connections are? We are all flowing towards ONE reality, enjoy the journey in the present.

 

[C Kirpal]

What i understand is that we can feel him. Everyone can . Close your eyes now and feel him . No need to understand as he is un-describable but can be felt

 

[davinderdhanjal]

Ambarsaria ji,
You have posed a very open question that should exercise a lot of minds including the ones who have already contributed. I look at things simply and will put my penny’s worth.
I have not been through the whole of the Granth Sahib but already the differentiation of Guru and guru is confusing. Please correct me if I am wrong, our gurus talk about meeting the Guru or God or Lord – my knowledge of Granth Sahib is not sufficient to define what form of this meeting or vision is as yet. However just to learn more I join in the discussion.

To follow your questions I will use the same order of numbering as your examples in an attempt to put my thoughts over:

• Creator as being a specific form- Japji Sahib explains the difference between human and God. As God is not born then all Ram/Krishna/Buddha/Christ/Mohamed are gods or prophets as the case may be because they were born. Granth Sahib quotes ‘darshan of Guru’ I would take from that – we have to invent a form to satisfy ourselves unless the state of mind to ‘see God’ is sublime feeling and peace of mind which an average human does not experience.
• Getting in touch with One Creator – the Creator is in each and every one of us and all things. So to get in touch with the creator is to awaken the Creator in one. That takes a lot of ‘work’ like starting with a rough diamond the final polished state – it needs sharp corners removed as the five thieves, keeping the Lord in mind all the time and being thankful for His support to take us to that state.

3. About understanding infinite – what ever we use as an example is going to be one aspect of the Infinite. To keep it short and looking at it mathematically a 70kg person has 2.3x10^28 electrons, then there are 6 billion humans and if we use the same composition for argument sake the earth is 6^24kg, and the earth is one of the 9 planets of our sun. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy; there are at least 170 billion galaxies in our ever expanding universe. Need we go any further? This is just one aspect, others may be spiritual, sound, thought, and more I do not know. If electron is assumed as the smallest particle it is controlled and answers to the Lord. Human still has to find theories to explain its behaviour. One mathematical definition of infinity is ‘whole is a part of itself’. That would mean, in terms of electron example, the infinite is part of some combination of electrons! This combination may require a certain mental condition and chanting (sound) for its organisation. As we work up to more complex combinations the matter becomes more ‘visible’ but the behaviour more complex. May be this is a part of the quagmire gurus pointed out as to not ponder too much in trying to understand Infinite. [/FONT]

 

[Ambarsaria]

C Kirpal Bhain ji thanks for your post.

What i understand is that we can feel him. Everyone can . Close your eyes now and feel him . No need to understand as he is un-describable but can be felt

Closing eyes, thinking, touching, and all sensory stimulii are the means. If you want it to last 24/7, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji touches on a concept called "always aware". Seeing and experiencing all is of creator everywhere is a wonderful realization. Whether you look at a stone, a bird, a dog. or a cat, a person, someone's writing, and so on. All experiential, sensory and mind/heart are there at everyone's service and a gift to us from our creator.

I do not know if you understand Punjabi (apologies to non-Punjabi understanding) but the following is not Gurbani. It comes from the land and language of out Guru ji's that once was, Punjabi/Punjab.

Baba Bulleh Shah,

Abida Parveen Sings Bulleh Shah - YouTube

Another video (Hindi-Punjabi mix lyrics), fascinating rendition and focus on visualizing,

Meri Aakhon mein Yaar tu hi vasda hai - Shubha Mudgal - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veer davinderdhanjal ji thanks for your post and th etime so taken to post. I have some comments even though I don't see much that is not true wisdom in your good post.

• Creator as being a specific form- Japji Sahib explains the difference between human and God. As God is not born then all Ram/Krishna/Buddha/Christ/Mohamed are gods or prophets as the case may be because they were born.

• I assume you mean prophets,
  • i.e. if these were not myths where we know Budha, Christ, Mohamed having confirmed by birth/life/death instances and are not myths
    
  • the rest to me are like characters from a novel and not God/creator/prophet

• Granth Sahib quotes ‘darshan of Guru’ I would take from that – we have to invent a form to satisfy ourselves unless the state of mind to ‘see God’ is sublime feeling and peace of mind which an average human does not experience.
  • I don't believe that Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji want us to invent a form. I realize and recognize your point about "average human" but I believe we should fight the temptation harder as the path may become.
    

• Getting in touch with One Creator – the Creator is in each and every one of us and all things.
  • Veer ji I think slightly differently or understand slightly different. All is made by the creator but it does not map into that creator is in all.
  • Yes the creator's design is in all but far from each element being the creator
    
• So to get in touch with the creator is to awaken the Creator in one. That takes a lot of ‘work’ like starting with a rough diamond the final polished state – it needs sharp corners removed as the five thieves, keeping the Lord in mind all the time and being thankful for His support to take us to that state.
  • Veer ji I think slightly differently or understand slightly different.
  • What needs to be woken up inside is that all is of the creator, i.e. all of creation
    • The more one sees the making of the creation by the creator, indirectly more we recognize the creator's aspects and virtues everywhere including within ourselves
      
• About understanding infinite – what ever we use as an example is going to be one aspect of the Infinite. To keep it short and looking at it mathematically a 70kg person has 2.3x10^28 electrons, then there are 6 billion humans and if we use the same composition for argument sake the earth is 6^24kg, and the earth is one of the 9 planets of our sun. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy; there are at least 170 billion galaxies in our ever expanding universe. Need we go any further? This is just one aspect, others may be spiritual, sound, thought, and more I do not know. If electron is assumed as the smallest particle it is controlled and answers to the Lord. Human still has to find theories to explain its behavior. One mathematical definition of infinity is ‘whole is a part of itself’. That would mean, in terms of electron example, the infinite is part of some combination of electrons! This combination may require a certain mental condition and chanting (sound) for its organisation. As we work up to more complex combinations the matter becomes more ‘visible’ but the behaviour more complex. May be this is a part of the quagmire gurus pointed out as to not ponder too much in trying to understand Infinite. [/FONT]
  • I much agree with your observation. Even the virtues mentioned without any limit or qualification in the Mool Mantar are an attestation to what you state.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

Let us folllow Siri Guru Granth Sahib truthfully and leave this all cleverness (Chaturaiee).

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

Very simple. Adopt and follow the teachings of Siri Guru Granth Sahib in your daily life. One very simple example: Be truthfull ! To yourself and to others. Are we really truthfull?????

 

[Ambarsaria]

Very simple. Adopt and follow the teachings of Siri Guru Granth Sahib in your daily life. One very simple example: Be truthfull ! To yourself and to others. Are we really truthfull?????

Veer ji I read some of your posts at SPN and deleted my post. It is not worth debating/discussing when there is no effort to help but throw out one liner truisms as though "truthful" is the only word in SGGS. In one of the other posts you suggested people to do simran and leave rest to Waheguru (I believe). So you see SGGS as a book of just meaningless lyrics with no effort to understand as it will come by itself by doing Simran. You also said in another post Sikhism being one of the more Scientific religions. Science is generally considered to be based on pursuit of understanding. I cannot reconcile which is the truth that you imply or want others to follow or you follow. I feel confused as your posts start to coincide with Bagga ji's posts and style.

To each their own. I wish you well in your own ways.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth]

....koorh raja koorh parja koorh sab sansar.........sach ta par janeyee ja hirdaye sacha hoyee!............says guru ji in asa dee war. ............

 

[Ambarsaria]

....koorh raja koorh parja koorh sab sansar.........sach ta par janeyee ja hirdaye sacha hoyee!............says guru ji in asa dee war. ............

I have no issue with the above. That is how I try to work or think but far far from perfect.

In the practice of the above Gurbani quote who did you address the following to,

Let us folllow Siri Guru Granth Sahib truthfully and leave this all cleverness (Chaturaiee)

The tone of your line versus Gurbani is a difference of day and night. Here you almost softly cursing an unknown with the highlighted word. Who was this addressed to or just about everyone except self. It just did not appear right.

Help me understand.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[chazSingh]

Hi Davinder Dhanjal,

I will try and explain the below from my own understanding and experiences.

Ambarsaria ji,

To follow your questions I will use the same order of numbering as your examples in an attempt to put my thoughts over:

• Creator as being a specific form- Japji Sahib explains the difference between human and God. As God is not born then all Ram/Krishna/Buddha/Christ/Mohamed are gods or prophets as the case may be because they were born. Granth Sahib quotes ‘darshan of Guru’ I would take from that – we have to invent a form to satisfy ourselves unless the state of mind to ‘see God’ is sublime feeling and peace of mind which an average human does not experience.

from my experience of Simran/mediation on God, it is best to not put any form on a Guru, person, prophet, image of god etc. Our destination is Sach Khand where there is no form. Any form used will eventually create an attachment to that form which you'll have difficulties passing when experiencing the formless.
On your internal journey to Sach Khand (its all internal), you may be blessed with darshans of the Gurus, Jesus, other Saints etc...but you will only see their pure light form. I haven't had any darshans as yet so i cannot tell you what this pure light form is like
Imagine raising your consciousness to a point where you feel connected to the whole universe, like in a dream you don;t feel like you have a body, but when you wake up all of a sudden you realise you are more than what you were in the dream..you feel connected to your whole self...imagine this on a universal scale. This is what we can obtain. when we know we are one with the one...what is there to be afraid of, who is there to be angry with, who are we to feel jelous of....if there is only ONE...and you can feel the ONE

• Getting in touch with One Creator – the Creator is in each and every one of us and all things. So to get in touch with the creator is to awaken the Creator in one. That takes a lot of ‘work’ like starting with a rough diamond the final polished state – it needs sharp corners removed as the five thieves, keeping the Lord in mind all the time and being thankful for His support to take us to that state.

The biggest betrayel of organised religion is the belief that we need to 'find' god, or we are 'seperated' from god. Just like you said, he is within us...we can not get away from him. what can happen though, is we can 'forget' who we are...that we can forget that vastness of our actual being, that we can over our lifetimes 'forget' and start to think we are this limited, finite mind of ours. The mind is like a Drill...the drill was to be used by us to work within the creation. We are the controller of that drill.... only thing is we now think we are the drill...the drill controls us...a drill only knows how to operate in a finite way and to its own functions...the drill has gone wild and is punching holes all over the place...we need to gain control of this drill and realise that we are not the drill, but we are the driving force, the pure infinite consciousness that exists within.

When i say God is within us....this is my mind saying god is a seperate entity within us...the mind cannot fathom this. but the mind is a manufactured computer. Our true reality is that what we actually are is a conscios segment of the universal mind...we have unlimited infinte potential if we can but gain control and stop this wayward mind of ours.

3. About understanding infinite – what ever we use as an example is going to be one aspect of the Infinite. To keep it short and looking at it mathematically a 70kg person has 2.3x10^28 electrons, then there are 6 billion humans and if we use the same composition for argument sake the earth is 6^24kg, and the earth is one of the 9 planets of our sun. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy; there are at least 170 billion galaxies in our ever expanding universe. Need we go any further? This is just one aspect, others may be spiritual, sound, thought, and more I do not know. If electron is assumed as the smallest particle it is controlled and answers to the Lord. Human still has to find theories to explain its behaviour. One mathematical definition of infinity is ‘whole is a part of itself’. That would mean, in terms of electron example, the infinite is part of some combination of electrons! This combination may require a certain mental condition and chanting (sound) for its organisation. As we work up to more complex combinations the matter becomes more ‘visible’ but the behaviour more complex. May be this is a part of the quagmire gurus pointed out as to not ponder too much in trying to understand Infinite. [/FONT]

The universal mind consciousness (God) can create unlimited infiniate numbers of form...He just needs to think it. The infinate aspect of this we can not understand nor explain in a world where limits exists... The limits exists because we are limited by the mind that controls us....when we overcome the mind, and let our soul (pure godly consciousness) be the driver of our existance...then maybe then can we experience the infinate

I have created a thread for all that are wanting to and making efforts to understand themselves through simran and meditation and trying to conquer their 5 thieves.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38220&goto=newpost

We can all share our experiences with each other

 

[davinderdhanjal]

Ambarsaria Ji - few points:
The use of ‘God’ and ‘gods’ is in the sense used in Vedas and Shastras and Old Testament. Gursikhs believe in God but not in gods.
Christianity confuses this issue by calling Jesus Christ son of God – so I add this into god category.
Second point
I don't believe that Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji want us to invent a form. I realize and recognize your point about "average human" but I believe we should fight the temptation harder as the path may become.
The comment is vague to further the cause. What is the Darshan of the formless, indescribable, indefinable, invisible, infinite? For a mountain it may be another mountain, for a tree another tree so for human we may create a form that is human. It is not clear to me yet from my understanding of Granth Sahib to date.
Third point – Getting in touch with One Creator – one can only change oneself – not anything around. The creator as I define is narrowed to mathematical definition of infinity. If a body is made of trillions of cells or electrons etc. – it is a part of the infinite in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veer ji thanks for your post. Just one part I am not understanding of,

..... it is a part of the infinite (1) in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms. (2)

• I can relate to (1). It is like part of creator's imprint in all parts of the creation.
  
• (2) I cannot see or understand unless one calls the whole a type of part. I don't see ourselves being such a part bigger than the whole, one creator.

If you could elaborate please.

You are knowledgeable and may have background greater than mine. One phrase that sticks in my mind ascribed to our Guru ji's or wisdom thereof is that,

• "Hinduism is blind in both eyes"
  • Physical God
  • Multiple Gods
• "Islam is Blind in One eye"
  • Physical God or son of God
  • But Single God
    

You don't have to but in case you know or can describe better.

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Ambarsaria Ji - few points:
The use of ‘God’ and ‘gods’ is in the sense used in Vedas and Shastras and Old Testament. Gursikhs believe in God but not in gods.
Christianity confuses this issue by calling Jesus Christ son of God – so I add this into god category.
Second point
I don't believe that Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji want us to invent a form. I realize and recognize your point about "average human" but I believe we should fight the temptation harder as the path may become.
The comment is vague to further the cause. What is the Darshan of the formless, indescribable, indefinable, invisible, infinite? For a mountain it may be another mountain, for a tree another tree so for human we may create a form that is human. It is not clear to me yet from my understanding of Granth Sahib to date.
Third point – Getting in touch with One Creator – one can only change oneself – not anything around. The creator as I define is narrowed to mathematical definition of infinity. If a body is made of trillions of cells or electrons etc. – it is a part of the infinite in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms.

Gursikh is only for his GuRu only.There is no cocept as GOD for a GuRsikh.
Gursikh lives with NAAM only.So for a Gursikh NAAM is everything.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Prakash Singh Bagga ji some comments of my understanding and thanks for your post.

Gursikh is only for his GuRu only.

Gur (Creator) sikh (Learner of) ====> Learner of the creator

GuRu ====> Teacher

There is no concept as GOD for a GuRsikh. ===> One Creator


Gursikh lives with NAAM only.

NAAM ====> Understanding (of the creator)

So for a Gursikh NAAM is everything. ===> For a learner of the creator, the creator's understanding is everything.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[davinderdhanjal]

Ambarsaria Ji,
(2) I cannot see or understand unless one calls the whole a type of part. I don't see ourselves being such a part bigger than the whole, one creator.
Infinity is a very difficult concept to comprehend and rightly so it is attributed to the Lord God. I do not profess to know it well enough to teach others but ‘soul’ which I consider a part of a live person is not in our control and we are only when it is around.
If we take the body as a whole then the soul is part of it but it is ‘bigger’ than the whole as body can be mutilated and still live but soul is untouchable and overriding.
When the child in mother’s body it is alive (i.e. as an organ), and if you accept mother’s body and child as infinite number of electrons (or some smaller particles science may not have yet discovered), it may develop into a body and soul from these particles.
I think, the child has the opportunity to modify the soul by listening to the Guru’s word and following its instructions. There comes a time when person cannot look after the body or soul and it returns to the Infinite to either stay or return as per the deeds. (I have here defined two infinites one related to the body and other related to Universe).

· "Hinduism is blind in both eyes"

• Physical God
• Multiple Gods

Hinduism believes in physical gods (although there is mention of One God as well in certain places) in fact it is understood they have 330,000,000 gods. These are in form of Rams, Krishans, Brahma etc. and then the deities that make the majority multiple gods.
If I may quote Bhagvad Geeta XV.15, Sri Krishna says “I am whom the four Vedas seek to know; nay, it is I who am the author of the Vedant as well as the Knower of the Vedas”. So Hindu gods are humans behaving like God.
· "Islam is Blind in One eye"

• Physical God or son of God
• But Single God

Islam believes that any religion that is established, builds on the existing. Due to its proximity it takes all the founder members of Christianity as their own also and believes that Mohamed came to improve the religion. Because of Christ, who is considered to be Son of God also by Christianity – it is a physical god as we would understand as Christ was born and not God.
Islam, as Sikhi believes in One God.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash Singh Bagga ji some comments of my understanding and thanks for your post.Sat Sri Akal.

Your comments are partially agreeable.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Randip Singh]

I think its a symbient relationship. The creator is us, and we are in effect the creator, but the problem is, although the creator realises all of us, not all of us realise the creator.

 

[Archived_member15]

I think its a symbient relationship. The creator is us, and we are in effect the creator, but the problem is, although the creator realises all of us, not all of us realise the creator.

My dear brother Randip :whatzpointkudi:

Very true and beautifully put!


"...My Me is God, nor do I recognise any other Me except my God Himself...Divine light entered my heart from His love that did never fully wane, though indeed, dear, I can understand how a person’s faith can at times flicker, for what is the mind to do with something that becomes the mind’s ruin: a God that consumes us in His grace. I have seen what you want; it is there, a Beloved of infinite tenderness...He has never left you. It is just that your soul is so vast that just like the earth in its innocence, it may think, “I do not feel my lover’s warmth against my face right now.” But look, dear, is not the sun reaching down its arms and always holding a continent in its light? God cannot leave us. It is just that our soul is so vast, we do not always feel His lips upon the veil..."


- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Catholic mystic



"...As the Godhead is nameless, and all naming is alien to Him, so also the soul is nameless; for it is here the same God...To guage the soul we must guage it with God, for the Ground of God and the Ground of the Soul are one and the same...The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God, as if He stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge..."


- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260 – c. 1327), Catholic Mystic & priest




"...In all faces, the Face of faces is veiled as a riddle. Howbeit unveiled it is not seen, until, above all faces, a man enter into a certain secret and mystic silence, where there is no knowing or concept of a face. This mist, cloud, darkness or ignorance, into which he that seeketh thy Face entereth, when he goeth beyond all knowledge and concept, is the state below which Thy Face cannot be found, except veiled; but that very darkness revealeth Thy Face to be there beyond all veils. Hence I observe how needful it is for me to enter into the darknesss and to admit the coincidence of opposites, beyond all grasp of reason, and there to seek the Truth, where Impossibility meeteth us..."

- Cardinal Nicolas of Cusa, (1401 – 1464) Catholic mystic

 

[Ambarsaria]

Randip Singh ji and Vouthon ji I appreciate your posts. I have learnt some more.

Great interactions.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Vouthon ji I relate to your citations and these are very wonderful indeed. I wholeheartedly can relate to Saint Catherine of Genoa and Meister Eckhart. I have slight questioning of Cardinal Nicolas Musa' s statement but I defer it to the other two being more of the essence.

My personal favorite past time from middle school onwards was to read "Books of Phrases and Proverbs". Great candy for the mind. I much like your posts where you bring out some exceptionally well written passages of conciseness and beautiful minds so creating these.

Thank you again.