Near Death Experiences

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I gave you various references that support my comments. more links:

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

So Richard Dawkins has not read the Quran, how can he criticize Islam - NeoGAF

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

So Richard Dawkins has not read the Quran

I believe he had better things to do.
Anyways, please stick to the NDE topic.
If you want to debate Dawkins, make a separate thread.

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

does not decrease his merit as a scientist

MIght I suggest looking for his actual scientific research? NOT popular presentations of ideas -- usually his speculations, not backed by hard research -- which he has done quite a bit of.

Salute!

And if you look at what Lane actually said you'll see that Dawkins is misrepresenting his position.

But I agree, this exchange is pointless.

Akiva

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I guess you consider research papers as 'actual scientific research'? Here's a list of his papers,

*Dawkins, R. (1968). "The ontogeny of a pecking preference in domestic chicks". Z Tierpsychol 25 (2): 170–186. doi:10.1111/ j.1439-0310.1968.tb00011. x . PMID 5684149 .
*Dawkins, R. (1969). "Bees Are Easily Distracted". Science 165 (3895): 751– 751. doi:10.1126/ science.165.3895.751 . PMID 17742255 .
*Dawkins, R. (1971). "Selective neurone death as a possible memory mechanism". Nature 229 (5280): 118–119. doi:10.1038/229118a0 .
*Dawkins, R. (1976). "Growing points in ethology". In Bateson, P.P.G. and Hinde, R.A. Hierarchical organization: A candidate principle for ethology. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Dawkins, R.; Carlisle, T.R. (1976). "Parental investment, mate desertion and a fallacy". Nature 262 (5564): 131–133. doi:10.1038/262131a0 . Treisman, M.; Dawkins, R. (1976). "The "cost of meiosis": is there any?". Journal of Theoretical Biology (London: Academic Press) 63 (2): 479–484. doi:10.1016/0022-5193(76 )90047-3 . PMID 1011857 . Dawkins, R. (1976). "Universal Darwinism". In Bendall, D.S. Evolution from Molecules to Men. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 403– 425. Dawkins R (1978). "Replicator selection and the extended phenotype". Z Tierpsychol 47 (1): 61–76. doi:10.1111/ j.1439-0310.1978.tb01823. x . PMID 696023 . *Dawkins, R.; Krebs, J.R. (1978). "Animal signals: information or manipulation". Behavioural Ecology: An Evolutionary Approach. Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications. pp. 282–309.
*Dawkins, R. (1979). "Twelve Misunderstandings of Kin Selection". Zeitschrift für Tierpsychologie 51: 184–200. doi:10.1111/ j.1439-0310.1979.tb00682. x .
*Dawkins, R.; Krebs, J.R. (1979). "Arms races between and within species". Proc. R. Soc. Lond., B, Biol. Sci. 205 (1161): 489–511. doi:10.1098/ rspb.1979.0081 . PMID 42057 .
*Brockmann, H.J.; Dawkins, R.; Grafen A. (1979). "Joint nesting in a digger wasp as an evolutionarily stable preadaptation to social life". Behaviour (London: Academic Press) 71 (3): 203–244. doi:10.1163/156853979X 00179 .
*Dawkins, Richard; Brockmann, H.J., Grafen, A. (1979). "Evolutionarily stable nesting strategy in a digger wasp". Journal of Theoretical Biology 77 (4): 473–496. doi:10.1016/0022-5193(79 )90021-3 . PMID 491692
*Dawkins, R. (1980). "Good strategy or evolutionarily stable strategy". In Barlow, G.W. and Silverberg, J. Sociobiology: Beyond Nature/Nurture?. Colorado: Westview Press. pp. 331– 337. ISBN 0-89158-960-0.
*Dawkins, Richard; Brockmann, H.J. (1980). "Do digger wasps commit the concorde fallacy?". Animal Behaviour 28 (3): 892–896. doi:10.1016/ S0003-3472(80)80149-7 .
*Dawkins, Richard (1981). "In defence of selfish genes". Philosophy 56 (218): 556–573. doi:10.1017/ S0031819100050580 . Krebs, J.R.; Dawkins, R. (1984). "Animal signals: mind-reading and manipulation". In Krebs, J. R. and Davies, N.B. Behavioural Ecology: An Evolutionary Approach. Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications. pp. 380–402. ISBN 0-632-02702-9.
*Dawkins, R. (1990). "Parasites, desiderata lists and the paradox of the organism". Parasitology. 100. Suppl: S63–73. PMID 2235064 . *Dawkins, R. (June 1991). "Evolution on the Mind". Nature 351 (6329): 686– 686. doi:10.1038/351686c0 .
*Hurst, L.D.; Dawkins, R. (May 1992). "Evolutionary Chemistry: Life in a Test Tube". Nature 357 (6375): 198–199. doi:10.1038/357198a0 . PMID 1375346 . Dawkins, R. (1994). "Evolutionary biology. The eye in a twinkling". Nature 368 (6473): 690–691. doi:10.1038/368690a0 . PMID 8152479 . Dawkins, R. (September 1995). "The Evolved Imagination". Natural History 104 (9): 8. *Dawkins, R. (December 1994). "Burying The Vehicle" . Behavioral and Brain Sciences 17 (4): 616– 617. doi:10.1017/ S0140525X00036207 .*Dawkins, R.; Holliday, Robin (August 1997). "Religion and Science". BioEssays 19 (8): 743–743. doi:10.1002/ bies.950190817 . *Dawkins, R. (1997). "The Pope's message on evolution: Obscurantism to the rescue". The Quarterly Review of Biology 72 (4): 397–399. *Dawkins, R. (1998). "Postmodernism Disrobed". Nature 394 (6689): 141– 143. doi:10.1038/28089 . *Dawkins, R. (1998). "Arresting evidence". Sciences (New York) 38 (6): 20–5. PMID 11657757 .
*Dawkins, R. (2000). "W. D. Hamilton memorial". Nature 405 (6788): 733. doi:10.1038/35015793 .
*Dawkins, R. (2002). "Should doctors be Darwinian?". Transactions of the Medical Society of London 119: 15–30. PMID 17184029 . *Blakemore C, Dawkins R, Noble D, Yudkin M (2003). "Is a scientific boycott ever justified?". Nature 421 (6921): 314–314. doi:10.1038/421314b . PMID 12540875 . *Dawkins, R. (2003). "The evolution of evolvability". On Growth, Form and Computers. London: Academic Press. *Dawkins, R. (2004). "Viruses of the mind". In Warburton, N. Philosophy: Basic Readings. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-33798-4.
*Dawkins, R. (June 2004). "Extended phenotype - But not too extended. A reply to Laland, Turner and Jablonka". Biology & Philosophy 19 (3): 377–396. doi:10.1023/ B:BIPH.0000036180.14904. 96 .

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

The topic of the thread is NDE not Dawkins. Some digression is necessary when there is a need for examples of scientists who disagree there is any truth to NDE. The point about Dawkins has been made. He cannot become the subject of the thread. Let's return to the main topic

 

[Luckysingh]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Abneet Ji

They don't see/experience different things -- they all see "a light" etc.

Yep, that's also called meditation !!:winkingmunda:

When you meditate quite deeply, then you will also experience this light and travelling towards it !

In my experience, it hasn't quite been the same thing as yet.

I had a so called NDE a few years ago and I was in a coma for a month.
After recovering, I did a lot of searching and digging into others experiences and came to some conclusions that are pretty valid for me!!-

1) I realized that there was something such as soul or conscious that was separate from my physical body !!!
-I was in a hospital that I had never ever been in before.
-I had been airlifted in, so wouldn't have known what was on the ground floor!
-but somehow, whilst never moving from the ICU bed, I knew my way around the wards and I knew the layout of the ground floor and entrance !!!
- on top of all this, I even knew the names and faces of a few doctors who had never even attended me !!!

I haven't ever discussed in detail all my encounters from the moment where I stopped breathing to my month in a coma, but it was interesting to learn that many others had very similar experiences.

Christians have claimed to see Jesus, muslims Mohammed..etc. and some have seen deceased loved ones.
The only conclusion I can come to about this is that one sees the person or being that they know as a 'guide'.
This guide would be someone you see in higher regards, someone you see at higher level than yourself, a person you admire and love..it doesn't have to be a religious figure it could be anyone as people have even claimed to have seen Elvis, but I didn't read anyone seeing Bob Marley!
This person appears as someone to guide you and in a sense hold your hand to whatever the next level is !

I do believe that it is partly to do with your inner self and conscious that helps dictates this experience.
However, the feeling of bliss and peace is indescribable.

The reports and theories out there are pretty good but they can't get to the real root of some factors such as 'Memory'
Because if your conscious or soul becomes detached and separate from your body, then how come you remember your experience according to the memory stored in your brain ??
This makes you question, 'is it just the mind and brain playing tricks?'

Somehow, I am more inclined to believe that it is NOT our mind/brain tricking us but more of something that is beyond our own scope of intellect.

Also Note, that the majority of people that come back from an NDE-
-Have a completely different outlook on life.
-Become more spiritual than previously.
-Are never afraid of death anymore, if they happened to be previously.
-Feel that everyone of us has a purpose in this creation for the time we are here.

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Yep, that's also called meditation !!:winkingmunda:

When you meditate quite deeply, then you will also experience this light and travelling towards it !

LuckySingh Ji

Agreed.

And thank you for your post.

Akiva

 

[Abneet]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

The thing I don't understand is that according to Christians, only Jesus was able to go to heaven and come back. But then theres people saying during their NDE they went to heaven and talked to God. To me thats load of bs due to the fact you can't go to heaven or hell and come back.

Source:http://www.near-death.com/stewart.html

Another interesting thing is theres people who say they have been guided by Jesus Christ in their dreams and He has showed them Hell in their dreams. To me I don't know how to respond to someone experiencing that. It all seems rubbish to me since everyone is always talking about their faith in NDE's.

In my opinion, you will meet your guide as was written before in this thread. But I just feel most NDE's are suspicious in a way on how people describe it.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Abneet ji

Short of agreeing with the words "bs" and "rubbish" I believe you bring up some points worth discussing in the thread. These are ideas that never occurred to me until you posted them.

It seems a lost battle to argue for or against science on either side because religion and science have vastly different yardsticks for "truth." Differing religious angles that you raise might be a good way to go.

 

[Abneet]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Yeah I was just so curious about people's NDE experiences. I go to a Catholic School where my theology teacher is always with "The Church" and its doings. Whenever I bring up a curious question about NDE he ignores it as if I never asked a question. He is also a deacon, who is suppose to respect every religion, but he called prophet muhammad a false prophet.Now to be that's just going over the border. I guess we just live in a world today with a lot of people thinking their religion is superior than any other rather than thinking each one is equal.

But back on topic, Near Death experiences is a very interesting topic. My dad's best friend from his childhood was a santh, and before he died he came to America to my house. Then he left for DC. There he met family members at a gurdwara. At the gurdwara a mother said "please take time to call my daughter and just talk to her". Santh ji said My death is near. The mother all confused and mad just left him. At his arrival back to India 2 days after santh ji dies of swine flu.

From this story I'll say He knew his Death and what was come to forth. I wish I got to know him better and ask him about NDE, but I was 12 at the time. I'll say this, santh ji's around the world who meditate for countless of years each day gain a undescriptive relationship with waheguru. It's unbelievable. and I JUST WANTED TO SHARE THE STORY.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Yeah I was just so curious about people's NDE experiences. I go to a Catholic School where my theology teacher is always with "The Church" and its doings. Whenever I bring up a curious question about NDE he ignores it as if I never asked a question. He is also a deacon, who is suppose to respect every religion, but he called prophet muhammad a false prophet. I guess we just live in a world today with a lot of people thinking their religion is superior than any other rather than thinking each one is equal.

Abneet ji

From personal associations with many Roman Catholics, some are members of the clergy, the NDE depending on how it is defined, can run very close to a heresy with the Roman Church dogma. Pretty much for the reason you already gave, death and return is limited to the doctrine of the resurrection of the body at the end of time.

"The thing I don't understand is that according to Christians, only Jesus was able to go to heaven and come back. But then theres people saying during their NDE they went to heaven and talked to God. To me thats load of bs due to the fact you can't go to heaven or hell and come back."

One life, one death, one soul, per person, Then a final resurrection when the messiah returns. Of course there are Roman Catholics who disagree, especially in the age of the internet where access to many points of view and discussion of them is easy. Less often does it work for the padre of a local parish telling the faithful what to think

What concerns me is that in a theology class the teacher/deacon is discouraging your question. It seems to me that more discussion rather than less would make teachings of any church open to a better understanding. His silence can backfire in many ways. It did not stop you from considering all points of view.

Please continue to consider aloud, here, so we can benefit.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I am actually checking this on YouTube and more than one Catholic priest has made a video about his own NDE. One priest described his experience as finding himself in the belly of a whale (remember the story of Job?)

Let me not pursue my own biases here!

p/s I found this. When Pope John Paul wrote about his own NDE there was no mention of a tunnel, angel, vision of Jesus or other divine being, or trip to hell. ""For some time I remained conscious," he says. "I had a feeling I was going to survive. I suffered, and that was a reason for fear, but I had this strange feeling of confidence."

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/feb/23/world/fg-popebook23

 

[Abneet]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I have to rewrite what I wrote due to exiting the page

First of all, I wanna say I agree with you. My thelogy teacher refuses to answer most of my questions anyhow. How can one theology teacher teach his religion superior than any other. Even though Islamic Scholars do it too, he should be giving respect to each and every one.

Also, my teacher has ignored some of these questions that he answered back speaking gibberish or starting talking about off-topic subjects.

I asked him if Jesus was God, and it is stated in the Bible that he is, why didn't he tell the people at NDE's. (He answered saying He already told so much about life that there was no time for him to talk about that)

Next, I asked him a question if force conversion is wrong today. (He said of course)

Then I showed him a Christian Missionary site where they try to trick Sikhs in Amritsar.
They tell what Christians should say to Sikhs and how their God is better and more loving.
Source: http://sikhoutreach.org/

(He replies well there are bad missionaries out there, just like their are radical islamics)

Again he is attacking Islam like its his job. This site really shows what Christian Missionaries do.

SPNAdmin, I admire you wanting me to share this and I really appreciate it. It's just everyday I go in this class learning Catholic teachings and seeing on how their odd.

One last point I want to make is He said from the top of his tongue that the Bible is the Word of God. Clearly the bible manuscripts have changed over hundreds years ago does not make it authentic.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Abneet ji

I just checked your age to see how much more time you will be at your school. Keeping your core values in mind, you have 2 more years at the high school. Then perhaps a university waits for you, where a broad view is open to you, questions and debate take place, and teachers take an active interest in questioning minds.

It is easy to say and tough to do, but you learn some important lessons about yourself in your current situation. You have a brain and you can trust it. Authority figures are not always dependable sources of knowledge or logic. Time spent being patient with your teachers is time spent developing a "let's just wait and see what we find out next" attitude which is an important tool for developing your own intellect and becoming a problem solver. It is a strength, even though it sucks. It is the essential attitude of someone who really thinks, develops what the Gurus call bibek/discernment, and does not confuse popular opinions or immediate impressions with wisdom.

You just have to know you will get through it.

On your remarks about the missionary work of Catholics and other Christians. My own discoveries support your conclusions. It is a matter of faith, btw, for Roman Catholics to accept the "affirmative mandate" to proselytize in order to rescue souls. The roman branch of Christianity may be more subtle than other Christian denominations, but it is nonetheless a mandate. The mandate is shared by Muslims and Buddhists; however, Buddhists have a somewhat different philosophy and approach as to how to bring others to salvation/moksha.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Is NDE sort of almost falling off the abyss moment or kind of Aant Kaal cluster of moments? Either way one is still alive and well.