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Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

Ishna

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Okay, so I chose chapter 26 next ("The Poets"). It appears to be a retelling of the story of Moses and Pharaoh. Prose most suitable.
 

Ishna

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Chose chapter 74 next:

O you who wraps himself [in clothing],
Arise [to pray] the night, except for a little -
Half of it - or subtract from it a little
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation.
Indeed, We will cast upon you a heavy word.
Indeed, the hours of the night are more effective for concurrence [of heart and tongue] and more suitable for words.

Indeed, for you by day is prolonged occupation.
And remember the name of your Lord and devote yourself to Him with [complete] devotion.
[He is] the Lord of the East and the West; there is no deity except Him, so take Him as Disposer of [your] affairs.


The above is nice, and Sikhi and Islam agree in this part. But then, as is the style of the Quran, it turns into something else:

And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.
And leave Me with [the matter of] the deniers, those of ease [in life], and allow them respite a little.
Indeed, with Us [for them] are shackles and burning fire
And food that chokes and a painful punishment -
On the Day the earth and the mountains will convulse and the mountains will become a heap of sand pouring down.


 

Shaheen

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Eep, this is also in chapter 5:



Is this the passage that causes terrorist organisations to feel justified in killing people?
The verse refers to those who wage WAR against Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him). It does not refer to con-combatants. Therefore, no one is justified in using it to their advantange. In fact, often it is the big state powers these days who commit corruption in large scale than the small scale isolated individuals. This is another discussion and does not really involve the fundamental as to why there is a rational basis for believing in God and His selected religion Islam.

God is compassionate. If one believes that He is not only the Creator, but also sustains (ie He is our Rab) everything - then one would expect a humble submission just because we are His creation. I expect my car to serve me on demand. He will reward the believers who are doer of good. But, punishes the wrong-doers. This is quite rational thing to do. Otherwise, what the point of being good? In this world, the law enforcement agencies don't reward us for obeying the laws. However, they punish us in varying degress for non-conformance. Does anyone object to receving such threats or getting punished?

As you can see, the message of the Quran is simple and there is no room for confusion. I have not said that you have to read the whole Quran to get a single point. It should be stated that our lack of understanding in the apparent shift in the subject may not actually be the case. The commentators of Quran have dealt with various themes and message of the Quran suggesting that the whole of Quran is interconnected.
 
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Ishna

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Shaheen Ji

My point in quoting pages of the Quran is to highlight the differences in content and approach between Quran and Gurbani. Yes, Quran is straight forward in the way it's written, because it is dealing primarily with rules (physical, mundane rules for the conduct of personal and societal life) and retelling stories about figures like Moses and Mary. The reward/punishment system is useful for ensuring people adhere to the rules described.

Gurbani is an entirely different ball game. Gurbani attempts to describe the astounding awesomeness of the Creator and how we small humans can perceive it. Poetry is useful for describing something inwardly experiential rather than practical. Here I selected a shabad from a random page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to contrast with the quotes from Holy Quran. (Panna 200)

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮਸਲਤਿ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ
Ŧūʼnhai maslaṯ ṯūʼnhai nāl.
You are my Advisor; You are always with me.

ਤੂਹੈ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਸਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Ŧūhai rākẖahi sār samāl. ||1||
You preserve, protect and care for me. ||1||

ਐਸਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਸਹਾਈ
Aisā rām ḏīn ḏunī sahā▫ī.
Such is the Lord, our Help and Support in this world and the next.

ਦਾਸ ਕੀ ਪੈਜ ਰਖੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Ḏās kī paij rakẖai mere bẖā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He protects the honor of His slave, O my Sibling of Destiny. ||1||Pause||

ਆਗੈ ਆਪਿ ਇਹੁ ਥਾਨੁ ਵਸਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ
Āgai āp ih thān vas jā kai.
He alone exists hereafter; this place is in His Power.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਮਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਉ ਜਾਪੈ ॥੨॥
Āṯẖ pahar man har ka▫o jāpai. ||2||
Twenty-four hours a day, O my mind, chant and meditate on the Lord. ||2||

ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ
Paṯ parvāṇ sacẖ nīsāṇ.
His honor is acknowledged, and he bears the True Insignia;

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
Jā ka▫o āp karahi furmān. ||3||
the Lord Himself issues His Royal Command. ||3||

ਆਪੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਿ
Āpe ḏāṯā āp parṯipāl.
He Himself is the Giver; He Himself is the Cherisher.

ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥੪॥੧੦੫॥੧੭੪॥
Niṯ niṯ Nānak rām nām samāl. ||4||105||174||
Continually, continuously, O Nanak, dwell upon the Name of the Lord. ||4||105||174||​
I hope you can see with this simple comparison how our scriptures differ in style and subject and are now better equipped to recognise Gurbani as poetry which is befitting its purpose.

Gurfateh
 

chazSingh

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There is a difference between an Earthly king and the King of all that exists. By assuming that God exists in everything - is a form of downgrading in rational understanding.

Is Goindwal not the 'City of God'? Of course, one can say that she finds spiritual closeness in that city - not that it is where God lives.
I think when one takes the journey within...they will realise the vastness of creation...the universe and beyond...distance becomes no object and all that exists is within grasp...what is without is within...fear of death is overcome ... and true love is felt..

There is no downgrading God in this...this is the game of love. Where just mere believing is left behind and is replaced by 'KNOWING'.

Why desire heaven? And why fear hell? When one comes to know that God is within...heaven and hell no longer matter.

I don't want a God that just wants me to believe in Him...I seek a God that wants me to know him...

I.Ve never read the Quran. Does it give guidance to the truth seeker on what we can do now whilst alive to 'know' Him?
 

Shaheen

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Ishna: I take your point about SGGS being based on poetry. You have also rightly stated that Quran is simple in its message, for it is supposed to be so in order to guide people. If Allah does not give guidance whilst He is our creator and sustainer - who else is more qualified to do so?

Dear ChazSingh ji: You have written,'I.Ve never read the Quran. Does it give guidance to the truth seeker on what we can do now whilst alive to 'know' Him?''

Let me start with a simple answer as Quran has a simple message. Yes! Quran gives guidance to the truth seeker and increases it even to those who seek it more. However, you question is a qualified one (ie does it give guidance whilst 'alive to 'know' Him). Yes! It does. We know Allah through His creation, His compassion and so on. We cannot see Allah in this life. But, in the life to come (ie hereafter or akhira), the Muslims will see Him. Allah will even offer drink to the believers.

I hope that you will be one of them by accepting the last and final message.
 
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chazSingh

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Ishna: I take your point about SGGS being based on poetry. You have also rightly stated that Quran is simple in its message, for it is supposed to be so in order to guide people. If Allah does not give guidance whilst He is our creator and sustainer - who else is more qualified to do so?

Dear ChazSingh ji: You have written,'I.Ve never read the Quran. Does it give guidance to the truth seeker on what we can do now whilst alive to 'know' Him?''

Let me start with a simple answer as Quran has a simple message. Yes! Quran gives guidance to the truth seeker and increases it even to those who seek it more. However, you question is a qualified one (ie does it give guidance whilst 'alive to 'know' Him). Yes! It does. We know Allah through His creation, His compassion and so on. We cannot see Allah in this life. But, in the life to come (ie hereafter or akhira), the Muslims will see Him. Allah will even offer drink to the believers.

I hope that you will be one of them by accepting the last and final message.
the only problem is my heart is aching 'now' to 'know' my creator....i do not want to wait until i die to see what happens...i'm very impatient like that :)

i wish you very well on your journey as i believe a good Muslim is well on His/Her way to experiencing God...

but i have no reason to seek elsewhere...about 3 years ago i made the effort to put into practice what SGGS Ji says, it said i don't need to wait until i die to see/hear/know God...in fact it told me not to waste another breath in my life and start now...it told me i was a fool for seeking God on the outside...and to start looking within...

and then one day "booooom" i got the proof i needed...and what is really mesmerizing is that many people...sikh and non sikh are taking the dive within, and starting to know who and what they really are and also experiencing God...the world is changing rapidly...

regardless...me and you...we come from the same place...the same source...i will see you at the destination my good friend.

God Bless
 

Shaheen

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the only problem is my heart is aching 'now' to 'know' my creator....i do not want to wait until i die to see what happens...i'm very impatient like that :)
Muhammad, the last Messenger (peace be upon him) said, 'Whoever loves to meet Allah, Allah would love to meet him'.

The truthfulness of the message comes in its authenticity, coherence and quality. Whilst I don't doubt your sincerity in your desire to meet your Lord, I beg to differ with you in that Islam is the only acceptable way to all of humanity starting from the first one Adam. The Quran is the criterion to determine truth from falsehood or mixture of it.

Every religion has some exclusive claim. But, the claim is measured on its quality. The Orthodox Jews are closest to the Muslims in terms of their understanding of God. The Christians are more friendly to Islam but less guided because of the belief in the Trinity.

Islam, my friend, offers the middle path (and only path) of accepting God and living both this life and the life to come. Some Orthodox Jews admit that Islam is the original religion of humanity (the word is 'Mushlam' in the Taura - the book of the Jews). <snipped proselytizing - Ishna>
 
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Ishna

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A clear and coherent reminder that proselytizing will not be tolerated and further posts to that effect will be edited or deleted in line with SPN Terms of Service, as has already occurred. @Shaheen Ji, whilst you are most welcome to analyse and ask questions about Sikhi, insisting in this forum that Islam is the only 'one true' religion and overtly or covertly suggesting that members should convert is inappropriate.
 

chazSingh

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Muhammad, the last Messenger (peace be upon him) said, 'Whoever loves to meet Allah, Allah would love to meet him'.

The truthfulness of the message comes in its authenticity, coherence and quality. Whilst I don't doubt your sincerity in your desire to meet your Lord, I beg to differ with you in that Islam is the only acceptable way to all of humanity starting from the first one Adam. The Quran is the criterion to determine truth from falsehood or mixture of it.

Every religion has some exclusive claim. But, the claim is measured on its quality. The Orthodox Jews are closest to the Muslims in terms of their understanding of God. The Christians are more friendly to Islam but less guided because of the belief in the Trinity.

Islam, my friend, offers the middle path (and only path) of accepting God and living both this life and the life to come. Some Orthodox Jews admit that Islam is the original religion of humanity (the word is 'Mushlam' in the Taura - the book of the Jews). <snipped proselytizing - Ishna>
Yes Shaheen ji. Every religion has its exclusive claim and is measured by its quality...

So if your happy with that quality offered in Islam then please continue.

The quality I measure against is what comes true when I follow something...and a lot has come true already...why would I look elsewhere?

God bless you on your chosen path.
 

japjisahib04

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Islam, my friend, offers the middle path (and only path) of accepting God and living both this life and the life to come. Some Orthodox Jews admit that Islam is the original religion of humanity (the word is 'Mushlam' in the Taura - the book of the Jews). So, come to what is true and sound.
Well I am happy you are faithful to your religion. God has given a scale (bhibekh budh/wisdom?) to everyone to measure whether he is following the right path i.e. gurbani tells us, 'ਪਹਿਲਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਿਞਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੀਚੈ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ evaluate the writing before following or you could be wasting your life in gamble. SGGS.1410. Look at their humility.

Muslim believe if we exercise good conduct in this world, we can watch dances of nymphs in the heaven, over here if we don't consume wine, we will get ‘Somras’ in heaven, over here if we donate little, over there we get palaces studded with pearls and diamonds. If you convert someone to your faith you get so and so award (A great Muslim poet and theologist Dr. Mohammand Iqbal while lashing out on this hypocracy and said, “bahishto huro gilma evjai tait mai n manungha inhi baaton sai vaiz jaif imaan hota hai - O preacher you have weaken my belief, if by reading holy scripts, praying and good conduct, gets me in paradise where I am promised fairy girls, wine, wealth and property, then even the heaven you have turned into a business), Sikh are not looking for converts like vultures fan the skies for dead meat Mohammadens having desires for rivers of wine and beautiful damsels if they increase number of Muslims whereas in Sikhism there is no trade-in. On the contrary gurbani guides me, raaj n chaho mukt n chaho manh preet charan kamlarai. (SGGS 534)
 

chazSingh

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Well I am happy you are faithful to your religion. God has given a scale (bhibekh budh/wisdom?) to everyone to measure whether he is following the right path i.e. gurbani tells us, 'ਪਹਿਲਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਿਞਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੀਚੈ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ evaluate the writing before following or you could be wasting your life in gamble. SGGS.1410. Look at their humility.

Muslim believe if we exercise good conduct in this world, we can watch dances of nymphs in the heaven, over here if we don't consume wine, we will get ‘Somras’ in heaven, over here if we donate little, over there we get palaces studded with pearls and diamonds. If you convert someone to your faith you get so and so award (A great Muslim poet and theologist Dr. Mohammand Iqbal while lashing out on this hypocracy and said, “bahishto huro gilma evjai tait mai n manungha inhi baaton sai vaiz jaif imaan hota hai - O preacher you have weaken my belief, if by reading holy scripts, praying and good conduct, gets me in paradise where I am promised fairy girls, wine, wealth and property, then even the heaven you have turned into a business), Sikh are not looking for converts like vultures fan the skies for dead meat Mohammadens having desires for rivers of wine and beautiful damsels if they increase number of Muslims whereas in Sikhism there is no trade-in. On the contrary gurbani guides me, raaj n chaho mukt n chaho manh preet charan kamlarai. (SGGS 534)
well said...

purity of soul cannot be determined if one is always looking at the possible reward...women, palaces, wine or whatever it is...

true purity only exists when something is done selflessly....i.e. i want to help someone, to serve them but i have no interest in heaven and hell or reward...i serve because i see God in all..."

the journey to God realization cannot be made into a business...

God has to be beyond the insecurities of human beings....i.e. a God that just wants us to 'believe in Him' sounds to me like an insecure God...

but regardless of this...i am 100% without doubt that Waheguru can be experienced whilst we are alive in this human body... :)
 

swarn bains

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gur Nanak, Nanak har soi. this entire paragraph is about the guru. then how come my explanation is wrong. please let me know by e mail
 

Shaheen

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God has to be beyond the insecurities of human beings....i.e. a God that just wants us to 'believe in Him' sounds to me like an insecure God..
Does not SGGS tell us to believe in God? Quran tells us to believe in God and do good deeds. Allah tells us to do so because He has the right to, not because of any 'insecurity'. We don't worship Allah because Allah needs us.

I cannot force anyone to abandon their faith. If one is secure, one need not worry. But are they really?
 

chazSingh

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Does not SGGS tell us to believe in God? Quran tells us to believe in God and do good deeds. Allah tells us to do so because He has the right to, not because of any 'insecurity'. We don't worship Allah because Allah needs us.

I cannot force anyone to abandon their faith. If one is secure, one need not worry. But are they really?
it tells us to believe as a 'foundation' to something...to something great.....the belief is just the beginning...

majority of it inspires to reach the end goal of Waheguru Realization...actual proof, actual experience beyond any doubt...whilst we breath in this human body.....the human body which is the doorway to Waheguru...the greatest of His creations..

i couldn't imagine going through my life just believing...i want to know...i need to know

so from my own point of view...yes i feel secure :) because the proof i talk about here....it has started to manifest...and that same proof exists within you also regardless of what religion you place yourself into or what religious text you read...

you cannot tell the person who is eating the apple, that he/she is not really eating the apple...they will just ignore you and continue taking bites out of that juicy fruit :)
 

Ishna

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Message deleted. I was not kidding. Shaheen Ji, you are our respected guest, but we will not tolerate disrespect towards Sikhi, however subtle.
 

japjisahib04

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Allah tells us to do so because He has the right to, not because of any 'insecurity'. We don't worship Allah because Allah needs us. I cannot force anyone to abandon their faith. If one is secure, one need not worry. But are they really?
Gurbani tells us, 'ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Since God resides with us, the inner message is the most authenticative message and inner message is the genuine veds and also the genuine qoran which never tells me to descriminate fellow being. I therefore am more secured and happy as our guru were able to interact direct with their innerselves rather than depending upon some imaginative intermediatory fairies to bring the message. And gurbani tells me only those who are sincere with themselves and don't descriminate other on caste basis or addressing non-muslim as {censored}, are entertained in His darbar and will be able to do justice with themselves and as such other their living in this world is worth (uthai sacho hi sach nibadai chun vakh kadiai jajmalia ).

In Islamic belief it is believed when Hazrat ... was asked by God to sacrifice his son if he really wanted to see God, he asked his fellow beings to blindfold him before he kills his son but still he couldn't and gave up and started the ritual of killing animals. Dasrath couldn't endure the pain of separation from Ram and died. Arjun when learned that Abhimaniue is slained, he couldn't bear the pain and left the battlefield but one and only hero of humanity serbansdani Guru Gobind Singh celebrated the death of his all four children by saying, 'in putran kai sis parvar deeye sut char char mua toh kiya hua jeevat kaiee hazar. Guru sahib proved 'sura so pehchaniyeh jo ladhai deen kai hait purja purja kat maraia he didn't leave the field of righteousnous. Let us celebrate who unlike the other divide humanity by upper and lower class or addressing people as {censored} preached 'manas ki jaat sabhai eko pehchanbo'.
 
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swarn bains

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in the above discussion
ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ
No guru ever called himself the guru or God. it is us how we interpret it
my interpretation
O Nanak the guru is God or the guru and God are the same
Nanak used twice is to balance the couplet
 

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Shabad Vichaar by SPN'ers

The shabd under discussion in this article is composed by Guru Teg Bahadur ji and is contained on Page 633 of the SGGS. The complete shabd is as follows:

ਸੋਰਿਠ ਮਹਲਾ ੯॥...​

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