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Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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A human being would question the validity of poems being the source of guidance. As the poets would say, 'I don't mean what I say'. Hence, Quran is not a book of poetry, nor did Allah teach Muhammad (peace be upon him) poetry.

Discussing a scripture which is claimed to be from the poetry is very problematic to say the least.
 

Original

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Jan 10, 2011
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great post ji...very deep and profound and True :)

but i think Harry ji was highlighting Shaheen's inability to see how the beauty of language can be used in many different ways...

i.e. Blind not always literally meaning the physically blind.....and previously, birth not always meaning a baby making acquaintance with the outside world after 9 months of having its feet up and relaxing within the comforts provided by the mother...

Thankfully, even if we get the meaning wrong (which Shaheen has proved can easily happen), Sikhi Gives us a way to prove to ourselves through first hand experience what is true and what isn't...thank God for that :)

God Bless JI
....in that case, I'm out for 6 ! Thx for bailing..........
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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A human being would question the validity of poems being the source of guidance. As the poets would say, 'I don't mean what I say'. Hence, Quran is not a book of poetry, nor did Allah teach Muhammad (peace be upon him) poetry.

Discussing a scripture which is claimed to be from the poetry is very problematic to say the least.

you are missing the point my good friend :)

some would describe the sight of seeing a space shuttle blast off into space as being 'mind-blowing' ... because that experience is almost beyond words...

when someone then reads that description....do they then think the subjects mind blew up at the sight of the amazing shuttle blast off lol lol

what is problematic and worrying is that you don;t seem to understand this....the basics of language and the beauty of expression.

very very worrying and this is a big problem in today's religious world...where everyone is trying the whole 'our religion is better than yours' and trying to find contradictions in each others religious text....rather than coming together as one and recognizing the divinity within us all...thus peace on earth
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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A human being would question the validity of poems being the source of guidance.
Which human being? do you speak for all human beings? no, you speak only for yourself and even then, not as a Muslim, but as yourself with your own interpretation as to what it is to be a Muslim, surely we can only speak for ourself and our understandings?

As the poets would say, 'I don't mean what I say'
I have googled this and come up with nothing, if this is a very quotable quote, then surely I should be able to find it quite easily, is it perhaps one poet that you have heard this from? May I

now preface some of my own musings with 'As my Dad would say'?

Hence, Quran is not a book of poetry
well the SGGS is,... although I am still at a loss to understand why you cannot seem to understand that applying Islamic thought to Sikh philosophy is like using apples in a recipe instead of oranges, and you keep complaining you cannot find the orange peel on the apple, why? because it is not there. You remind me of the blind man, in the dark room, trying to kick the black dog, that just isn't there.

nor did Allah teach Muhammad (peace be upon him) poetry.
You cannot teach poetry, it comes from the heart, as the many wonderful Muslim poets, with wonderful hearts would know, in my opinion.

Discussing a scripture which is claimed to be from the poetry is very problematic to say the least.
not as problematic as trying to figure out why your apple crumble is all orange....
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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Let us talk about humanity. Do you give instructions to peope in poetic language? If not, then you know what I mean. We can speak for ourselves and talk about what others perceive. People speak for others sometimes. Like Guru Nanak ji claimed to speak for God.
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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There aren't so many instructions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A lot of it is social commentary and thoughts about that. It's about perceiving Ik Onkar here and now and describing the joy of that experience. Quran is indeed a scripture of instructions and stories, but that is not Gurbani's focus. Poetry is really the most ideal way to bring people to the type of understanding and perspective Guru Sahib was talking about.
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Let us talk about humanity. Do you give instructions to peope in poetic language? If not, then you know what I mean. We can speak for ourselves and talk about what others perceive. People speak for others sometimes. Like Guru Nanak ji claimed to speak for God.
there is a phrase often used when people are blind to something (not literally physically blind which i feel i must state to you...because you'll be wondering what i mean here)

the phrase is....to understand something you often have to 'open your mind' ... the way you are interpreting things, you will try to slice your brain open...which i'm hoping you will agree is a bad idea...and is not the meaning of the phrase...'open your mind'

just understand for the love of language and the development of human beings over the centuries....that language can be used in many creative ways to describe the beauty that surrounds us and the experiences we have...either physicial, mental, or spiritual...

God Bless
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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I get your point about the various mode of expression. But, my question is: How do you give instruction and good advice to people or even to your family?
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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I get your point about the various mode of expression. But, my question is: How do you give instruction and good advice to people or even to your family?
This is what I say to my family...and will say to my kids. This is what I learned from Gurbani and so far is proving to be true in ways I couldn't ever imagine.

1. God is everywhere and beyond
2. God is therefore with you also
3. If waheguru is within you sure it's easier to seek him within...than without
4. Seek within.....but how
5. Simran...utilising ones own god given gift of consciousness...of attention...of power of a focused mind..and meditation
6. Guru will feel your effort and thirst to know the truth
7. Surrender of ego...all is in His hands
8 boooom
9. Wow...wow..just wow...
10. Waheguru..

Haven't reached 10 yet...but so far..everything is proving to be true...

That is what I will speak of to family friends...sangat and kids...

Quite simple...

No contradictions. ..just a whole lot of exploration. Enjoy :)
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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So, you give guidance to your family in simple sentences, rather than through poetry and metaphors exclusively. But, SGGS is in poetry form.
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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So, you give guidance to your family in simple sentences, rather than through poetry and metaphors exclusively. But, SGGS is in poetry form.
The guidance is also there in that simple form....that's why a fool like me was able to obtain it....you will find it also if you care to look rather than waste your time looking for contradictions

Poetry is used because what is being described is undescribable...hence language is used to its fullest in order to help us contemplate the magnitude of the truth....the importance of feeling rather than using logic

What I can't tell or describe to my family is what happens when the instructions are followed...for that they must take the steps themselves...

I Hope one day you transcend your current agenda and take a dive into the ocean of the mind and take a swim through unlimited posibil8ty.

God bless my friend
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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The guidance is also there in that simple form....that's why a fool like me was able to obtain it
This is what I look for in a book which is supposed to be from God. Clear and simple guidance and not subject to the whims and desires of those who want to seek interpretation. Take the example of Quran. The message is simple, yet there are some who seek to interprete it in a way which rejects the most obvious.

This is the 'Interfaith' section of forums and naturally one should expect different ideas and philosophies. I get some of your points in terms of poerty and different modes of expression. But, as I say, the guidance should be clear as you can appreciate in encounters with your family and business life. You cannot expect to say something only to face the possibility of different interpretation in what should be obvious.

The nature of God and His relationship with the creation is a fundamental matter and there should be no room for imaginary interpretation with the excuse that the guidance has come in the form of poetry.

In a discussion, people may not agree on something. After all, that is why we are discussing it in the 'Interfaith' section.
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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This is what I look for in a book which is supposed to be from God. Clear and simple guidance and not subject to the whims and desires of those who want to seek interpretation. Take the example of Quran. The message is simple, yet there are some who seek to interprete it in a way which rejects the most obvious.
The difference between Gurbani and the Quran is that the Quran needs to be as clear as possible because it is delivering laws and rules. You are correct that this kind of content is best delivered in a straightforward, prose manner.

Gurbani does not deliver laws and rules. It gives guidance and insight to the human experience and seeks to bring people to a closer awareness of reality and the Creator. It can do this through poetry and song and should use as much metaphor and allegory as it can to connect with the widest range of people at as many possible times.

This is the 'Interfaith' section of forums and naturally one should expect different ideas and philosophies. I get some of your points in terms of poerty and different modes of expression. But, as I say, the guidance should be clear as you can appreciate in encounters with your family and business life. You cannot expect to say something only to face the possibility of different interpretation in what should be obvious.

The nature of God and His relationship with the creation is a fundamental matter and there should be no room for imaginary interpretation with the excuse that the guidance has come in the form of poetry.

In a discussion, people may not agree on something. After all, that is why we are discussing it in the 'Interfaith' section.
It's the 'Interfaith' section of a Sikh forum. You are entitled to your opinion, but we will undoubtedly remain satisfied with our poetic scripture.

The nature of God and His relationship with the creation is understood so differently between Islam and Sikhi. It is easy to describe the nature and relationship within Islam because of its duality - God is over there, and the creation is over here, and the creation must do precisely what God says to get to heaven, or else it will be punished. It's not like this according to Sikhi. God and Its creation exist in the same space. Heaven is opening your awareness to It and living in union with It. This kind of thing just cannot be sufficiently explained in normal words and ultimately must be experienced for oneself, and this experience is better described with poetry than a legal treatise.
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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This is what I look for in a book which is supposed to be from God. Clear and simple guidance and not subject to the whims and desires of those who want to seek interpretation. Take the example of Quran. The message is simple, yet there are some who seek to interprete it in a way which rejects the most obvious.

This is the 'Interfaith' section of forums and naturally one should expect different ideas and philosophies. I get some of your points in terms of poerty and different modes of expression. But, as I say, the guidance should be clear as you can appreciate in encounters with your family and business life. You cannot expect to say something only to face the possibility of different interpretation in what should be obvious.

The nature of God and His relationship with the creation is a fundamental matter and there should be no room for imaginary interpretation with the excuse that the guidance has come in the form of poetry.

In a discussion, people may not agree on something. After all, that is why we are discussing it in the 'Interfaith' section.
Have you ever been on holiday and purchased a guidebook for your destination?

If you have...usually the best guidebooks are written by someone who has actually been to the destination...

A good guidebook not only gives good instruction on where to go..what to do...and how to do it....

It also gives insight into the writers emotions...joys...struggles..the sights and sounds....that the writer experienced on the way...all using descriptive language. ..expressions..metaphors etc etc to describe things..to entice...inspire the reader to take the journey themselves. ..

This is SGGS ji.

The guidebook wirh instructions...emotions...the battles with ones own mind...insights into the stages of the spiritual journey written by the Gurus bhagat saints who have seen and experienced it all...trying to inspire us to make the steps ... some things make complete sense...others don't. ..not until we get to those stages...

Just like when a guidebook describes the smell of the air when stepping out of a plain on Australia. .. the description inspired you...got you contemplating and imagining. ..but not until you get on the plane and step out in Australia. .will you go...'wow..I see...the Australian air...'

Anyway that's enough froM me on this. I feel like I.M giving a language lesson to one of my little nephews...
 

Shaheen

SPNer
Sep 22, 2015
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It is easy to describe the nature and relationship within Islam because of its duality - God is over there, and the creation is over here, and the creation must do precisely what God says to get to heaven, or else it will be punished. It's not like this according to Sikhi. God and Its creation exist in the same space.
There is a difference between an Earthly king and the King of all that exists. By assuming that God exists in everything - is a form of downgrading in rational understanding.

Is Goindwal not the 'City of God'? Of course, one can say that she finds spiritual closeness in that city - not that it is where God lives.
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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The difference between Gurbani and the Quran is that the Quran needs to be as clear as possible because it is delivering laws and rules. You are correct that this kind of content is best delivered in a straightforward, prose manner.
If you read the Quran, you will find very few commands and prohibitions. Rather, a big part of it deals with the case for believing in God; invitation to see the rationale in believing in God. God invites us to look at the wonders of nature and how it bears testimony to His greatness and so on. Of course, there are frequent mentions of life after death - heaven as well as hell. Quran starts with mentioning Allah's names Rahman and Rahim - most compassionate and most caring. By pondering on Allah's creation - we can connect ourselves to Him. We don't distance ourselves from this world to connect to Him. He is very close to us individually.
 

Ishna

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May 9, 2006
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Shaheen Ji

There is a difference between an Earthly king and the King of all that exists. By assuming that God exists in everything - is a form of downgrading in rational understanding.
It is not downgrading from the Sikh perspective. Panentheism says that creation is within the Creator, and the Creator is within the creation but also timelessly extends beyond it.

If you read the Quran, you will find very few commands and prohibitions. Rather, a big part of it deals with the case for believing in God; invitation to see the rationale in believing in God. God invites us to look at the wonders of nature and how it bears testimony to His greatness and so on.
Here there is common ground between our faiths. From my point of view, whatever brings you in touch with God and causes you to act from a place of love for God and compassion for creation, is good.

Of course, there are frequent mentions of life after death - heaven as well as hell. Quran starts with mentioning Allah's names Rahman and Rahim - most compassionate and most caring. By pondering on Allah's creation - we can connect ourselves to Him. We don't distance ourselves from this world to connect to Him. He is very close to us individually.
You description is beautiful. :) Sikhs don't distance themselves from the world to connect to Ik Onkar, either.
 

Ishna

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If you read the Quran, you will find very few commands and prohibitions. Rather, a big part of it deals with the case for believing in God; invitation to see the rationale in believing in God. God invites us to look at the wonders of nature and how it bears testimony to His greatness and so on. Of course, there are frequent mentions of life after death - heaven as well as hell. Quran starts with mentioning Allah's names Rahman and Rahim - most compassionate and most caring. By pondering on Allah's creation - we can connect ourselves to Him. We don't distance ourselves from this world to connect to Him. He is very close to us individually.
Although I've read some chapters of the Quran before, I thought I'd pick it up now and read some more, keeping what you said in mind. Chapter 5 was apparently a bad example :p
 

Shaheen

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Sep 22, 2015
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Although I've read some chapters of the Quran before, I thought I'd pick it up now and read some more, keeping what you said in mind. Chapter 5 was apparently a bad example :p
There are some prohibitions and commands at the beginning of Surah/chapter 5. But, the most of the chapter deals with the broader issue of setting the fundamentals of the religion - setting an attitude towards Allah and life. For example: verse 44 deals with the need to govern by Islamic laws (ie it is a fundamental principle). Moreover, verses 87 and 88 in fact allow people to enjoy numerous lawful things (most of the things are lawful), rather than wrongly prohibiting them. In order to understand the beauty and preciousness of Quran - one needs to understand the Arabic, especially the classical Arabic. However, even a translation (for example: Muhshin Khan or Abdul Haleem's) can help you understand the simplicity of the message.
 

Ishna

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Eep, this is also in chapter 5:

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Is this the passage that causes terrorist organisations to feel justified in killing people?
 

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