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Mitti Musalman Ki Paire Paye Kumiyaar

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Neutral Singh, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Jun 1, 2004
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    mÚ 1 ] imtI muslmwn kI pyVY peI kuim@Awr ] GiV BWfy ietw kIAw jldI kry pukwr ] jil jil rovY bpuVI JiV JiV pvih AMigAwr ] nwnk ijin krqY kwrxu kIAw so jwxY krqwru ]2] {pMnw 466}
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  3. OP
    Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Jun 1, 2004
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    Translation by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji

    What "Peirei pae kumiyaar" means...

    Well, for that we have to understand the unique style of Guru Nanak to press home the messge to everybody... His style, in my humble opinion, is to press the message on humourus note... which, i think, is very effective way... this light mood caughts the other person off guard...

    so when Guru Nanak says... (sometimes) that same piece of earth where a muslim was buried, is picked up by the peirae 'bad' potter...

    Now by saying that potter is the bad person... a musalman would go off guard and their defense mechanism would be disabled as they would think that these statements are not directed on them and they would read the message with open and relaxed mind... so when they read the whole message... they would realise the meaning without agitated...

    so you can say that

    ""peirae pae kumiyar"" suggests like saying "in the hands of a bad potter" but when we read the whole meanings we would realise... Guru Nanak says, Only the Creator who has created this universe only knows what is right and what is not... who are we to fight over such issues...

    Let us read the whole message in a more elaborative form...

    "'Mitti Musalman ki peirei paee kumiar; Ghar bhandei itan kia, jaldi karei pukar"

    Muslims are of the belief that after death if the mortal remain are burnt, they would burn in the "Fire of Dozak" (please correct me for my knowldege) so they bury their dead and that soil is rendered useless... But then Guru Nanak says... (sometimes) that same piece of earth where a muslim was buried, is picked up by a bad potter (means, as that part of earth becomes clay after sometime as the body is decompposed by the earthworkms in earth like the earthworms/moths, who prey on the dead body and their movements makes the earth clay... infact there a business of making clay by putting some earthworms in the earth) and then potter gives that earth the shape of bricks or utencils and when the potter puts it on kiln*** (the burning fire) that same earth sounds like crying as if in eternal pain... the same pain that muslims were trying to evade while burying... or as they think so...

    ***If you ever happen to go to Kiln where bricks or utensils are put to great heat and fire and when the bricks or utensils are in the process of drying up and hardening, they produce great loud noices like somebody is crying... this a fact and Guru Nanak is trying to convey the message in the simplistic of terms...:)

    Chardi Kalaa
  4. OP
    Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Jun 1, 2004
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    Firstly, I am not an enlightened being... certainly not... not even a bit...

    Ok, can you tell why you asked me to tell the meanings of the above verse...? If we go as per your translation by taking a single line from the whole verse... even you have manipulated the meanings of the verse completely and represent it, as if, they are condening a human being, the person happends to be a Muslim in this case. Do you think that teachings of Guru Nanak are for a selected few people or filled with prejudice against fellow human beings? Guru Nanak proclaimed that there is no Muslim or Hindu in the court of the Almighty and all are one and same in the eyes of the almighty. Are you not spreading the hatred and mis-representing... you certainly are a contributor. I think, you being an Sikh apologist, in your quest to represent that Guru Nanak being prejudiced against Muslims, you are unknowingly indulging in manipulating the real message... You do not have to do this... Sikh teachings transcend any prejudice again fellow beings... This teaching is universal, and you dont have to defend it like this way...

    Indeed, Sikhism is supposed to set our mind free BUT only from ego, lust and hatred. Indeed, you are right that Sikhism condones violence against enemy who is hell bent to destroy BUT only for the sake of poor and the helpless... Sikhism only condones sacrifice for fellow human beings and that is reasons Sikh Guru's never fought for a piece of land or try to establish a kingdom but resisted only for the defence of much maligned people of their times... Sikhism does not condone speaking ill will against even the enemy... Show me a single verse in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which condones speaking or even thinking ill will even against the so called enemy. Sikhism asks you to kill the enemies within... the monster enemies like... Hate, Ego, Greed, Lust... and to set your mind free and be in peace with yourself...

    I would like to tell you all something about myself... Frankly speaking, even being born to a Sikh family, I have not read japji or sukhmani Sahib Ji fully at one given stretch in entire my life, even once and when I can not interprate the meanings, I never felt the need and this was never thrust upon me to make it a point to read gurbani... may be my family knew that this realisation only comes from within and its much better to understand the meanings of each verse rather than daily going on repeating the verses without knowing their meanings.

    The teachings of the SGGS Ji were hardly thrust upon me and I grew more as skeptic and this is one of the great novalities of being borm to sikh school of thought... No teaching are thrust upon our minds... like it is done in some of the other philosophies... but skepticism, unforunately, raises a lot of questions in mind but hardly provides any answers... I was feeling low and down and depressive about life...

    And then someone suggested me to read SGGS Ji to find the answers about life and nature... And, natuarlly being previleged to be born to a sikh family that was the best option available to me... And now that I have just started my quest for understanding the essence of Gurbani (SGGS Ji)... I have suddenly realised that I am already running out time... I am certainly not an enlighted person... certainly... certainly not... not even a bit... but only sharing over this forum what I could understand from readings and understaning some of the verses in SGGS Ji and that what actaully SGGS Ji really trying to convey to us humans during these trying times for the existence of humanity... a message full of eternal love, compassion and universal brotherhood and yeah!! sacrifice for the benefit of fellow human beings...

    Sikhism does not condone or glorify violence but uses it as a last resort when we see human being suffering at the hands of fellow human beings... when women are being raped and buthchered and children being rendered orphaned in front of fellow humans and who are staning standing helpless and this vicious cycle goes on unscathed. And history books tell us that Sikhs used violence as only the last resort and used it only protect the freedom of Spirit & for the freedom of Expression of fellow humans being... And that was the reason the people came from all walks of life without any prejudice to join Sikh philosophy... a way of life dedicated for the cause of well being of fellow human beings.

    On a more practical note, Can you tell me why United States sent their troops in Afganistan or Iraq...? It was because the people of these counteries were rendered helpless and hapless with atrocities committed on them over the centruies by fellow human beings... and now many people condemn the efforts of United States, but then there would always be people with differnet opinions... but what those troops did accomplish for the helpless people of Afganistan should fill each American to held their heads high with pride... Ofcouse barring some instanses which were out of their control...

    And, now compare this effort of United States' troops with the efforts of Sikh troops... Siks Gurus produced a miracle of creating Super humans/Cops from the same dummies, who could not even see the evil and cruel rulers face to face... the same hapless dummies, who were rendered useless due to atrocities committed on them over the centruies by fellow human beings... Isn't it stunning and wonderful to visualise what those dummies accoplisehd during their life times.. Those same dummies only dared to face the enemy eye to eye but also freed the people from the evil remige... There is hardly such an instanse of trasforming the dummies into Super Humans, who are always ready to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of fellow humans... I, humbly, bow with gratitude to those super people, who sacrifice their lives for the noble cause of protecting fellow human beings... whether they being Sikh troops or US troops... And this is the philosophy, Sikhism condones... and that is "Live life with love and harmony and do not interfare with the right to live and enjoy life of fellow human beings... and always be in Chardi Kala..."

    Human mind would always manipulate the facts because either they are jealous or they are filled with hatred... degrading others efforts is a human nature... need is free our mind from bigotedness and hatred and you will be in peace with yourself...

    Chardi Kala... Live Life in Hight Spirits...
  5. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    Jan 7, 2007
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    Neutral Singh ji,

    I just stumbled over this thread today. I may be misunderstanding the topic above. But I would like to make a comment on your viewpoint.

    ""peirae pae kumiyar"" Are your interpreting "peirae" as "bad" ? This in my view appears to be the wrong interpretation. The word "peirae" is the same "peirae" that we make when we make Roti. The difference is that in the tuk above, it is made of Mitti "Clay" used by the potter. This tuk is in now way directed towards the Kumiyar but it is directed towrds the Muslim Who think that one day their dead will rise out of the clay in which they have burried their dead. (They do not believe in re-incarnation.) What Guru Nanak Dev ji is saying here is to explaing what has happened to Clay where your loved ones have been burried. It has gone through so many transformations since it was moulded as a "peirae". Are you still expecting the dead to rise out of it?

    This is not the way to get liberation. The answer to this shalok is in the "pauree" that follows. Finally Guru Nanak ji is saying to the muslim is that "It is Only the Creator who has created this universe, Only knows what is in his creation" i.e. do not make speculations.

  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    Jul 4, 2004
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    i agree with musafir ji.... the word paerre is " the glob" of clay the potter places on the wheel prior to beginning his work...derived from the perre of atta that we put on the chakla to begin making a roti.

    Bad would be "BHErrah"....with BHABHHA and not P.

    Gyani Jarnail Singh
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Jun 30, 2004
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    The above was discussed at Learning Zone

    Yahoo! Groups

    Do all Sakhis compliment Gurmat?

    It is interesting to observe that how much credence we give to the
    Sakhis which are passed on as oral traditions and some have been
    used in writings without even giving it a second thought if they
    compliment Gurmat or not. All Sakhis that do not compliment Gurmat
    should be rejected vehemently and this job should belong to Akaal
    Takht because it is not a tough job to separate wheat from the chaff
    as far as Sakhis are concerned.

    Lets take the Sakhi that Gurmit Singh ji is sharing with us. Before
    we dissect its contents, lets look in the back ground of the Shabad.
    First and foremost this Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji which was
    written more than a century before this incident has supposed to
    have happened. We are all aware through history that all these
    Mughal emperors were not illiterate nor dumb. They had advisers in
    all fields specially about Sikhi as Aurangzeb felt threatened about
    Sikhi taking over Islam. Hence he must have been told about Gurbani
    and Adi Granth and as the conventional wisdom indicates that he must
    have also known the right verse, thus had no reason to ask Ram Rai
    about it.

    Now lets suppose for the sake of argument that Aurangzeb had no idea
    about the following Shabad:-

    This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 466

    ma 1 ||

    First Mehla:

    mittee musalamaan kee paerrai pee kumihaaar ||
    The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel.

    gharr bhaa(n)ddae eittaa keeaa jaladhee karae pukaar ||
    Pots and bricks are fashioned from it, and it cries out as it burns.

    jal jal rovai bapurree jharr jharr pavehi a(n)giaar ||
    The poor clay burns, burns and weeps, as the fiery coals fall upon

    naanak jin karathai kaaran keeaa so jaanai karathaar ||2||
    O Nanak, the Creator created the creation; the Creator Lord alone
    knows. ||2||

    The above Shabad is talking about the burial. As India had no
    Christians nor Jews at that time then the only people who were
    buried in India rather than cremated were the Muslims.

    The Sakhi based on the above Shabad goes like this:

    Some Muslim scholars were having a chat with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and
    they told him that all Muslims go to Heaven after the burial where
    it is cool and all kafirs go to hell which is steaming hot. After
    listening to them Guru Nanak asked them through the Shabad, how can
    heaven be cool when you are put in a hot oven by The Potter? In
    other words, No Hell- No Heaven-.Now this Sakhi does compliment the
    Shabad and makes sense.

    Aurangzeb did not know the shabad but as a devout Muslim he knew
    that Allah is mentioned as the Potter in Koran.

    Both in Christianity and Islam Ik Ong Kaar is considered The Potter
    and both consider Heaven as a cool place and Hell as steaming hot

    The Holy Bible
    Isaiah 64:8 (New International Version)
    8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father.
    We are the clay, you are the potter;
    we are all the work of your hand
    Isaiah 45:9 (New International Version)
    9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
    to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the
    Does the clay say to the potter,
    'What are you making?'
    Does your work say,
    'He has no hands'?

    The Holy Koran

    [55.14] He created man from dry clay like earthen vessels,

    [6.2] He it is Who created you from clay, then He decreed a term;
    and there is a term named with Him; still you doubt.
    Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged
    mud, like the potter's clay. Once I perfect him, and blow into him
    from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him. The angels fell
    prostrate; all of them, except Iblis (Satan). He refused to be with
    the prostrators.
    Now coming back to the Sakhi. If Ram Rai had changed the word from
    Musalmaan to Bayeemann, that would have been much more offensive
    because then it would indicate that all Musalmaans are Bayeemanns.

    Hence the above incidence is not likely to have happened as it gets
    Ram Rai in bigger trouble.



    --- In learning-zone@yahoogroups.com, "Gurmit Singh"
    <gurmitsingh@...> wrote:
    > Dear Brother Kirpal Singh Jee Nijher (USA),
    > Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh
    > Thanks for your awakening call to the Guru Panth since spread all
    over the
    > world.
    > Although all of us know, I wish to share the following:
    > (1) When Guru Har Rai Sahib deputed his elder son Ram Rai to the
    court of
    > Emperor Aurangzeb, he over-reacted to please the Emperor and
    > deliberately
    > misread one word "beimaan" instead of "Musalmaan" - (Asa Kee
    Pauri -
    > Pauri 6). Due to this misquote though Emperor was pleased,
    Sikhs were
    > displeased, and they had sent a report to Guru Har Rai Sahib,
    > immediately
    > anathematized Ram Rai for the sacrilege he had committed and
    > him
    > from his presence. Subsequently, Guru Har Kishan Sahib also
    did not see
    > his
    > brother nor Aurangzeb despite being in Delhi;
    > (2) Similarly, when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib lowered his arrow
    towards the
    > Dadu's
    > samadh, accompanied Sikhs questioned Guru Sahib, who accepted
    and owned
    > responsibility though it was with a purpose to teach a lesson
    > Sikhs - not to
    > bow before samadhs/deraas or mortals.
    > In the circumstances, all the Sikhs whether abroad or in Punjab
    and India,
    > should
    > boycott such persons from Badal to Vedanti including other anti-
    > elements
    > who have been propagating the brahminical doctrine under the cover
    of Gur
    > Bilas
    > Patshahi 6, Bachiter Natak and other manmade fables.
    > With best wishes and Charhdi Kalaa of the Guru Panth,
    > Gurmit Singh (Sydney)
    • Like Like x 1
  8. nijjharjatt

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    Sep 27, 2009
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    I have just posted my article on this highly misunderstood and controversial Saying. I have explained this in a series of Youtube Videos as well.
    #7 nijjharjatt, Oct 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2009
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