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Maybe The Gurus Weren't Perfect?

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Maybe The Gurus Weren't Perfect?

RicktheSikh

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Just curious about how everyone feels about the concept of infallibility. I won't suggest that the Gurus weren't spiritually-minded individuals or that they lacked virtue but why do we need them to be perfect? Yes, they were in touch with the God within. So were countless others throughout the history of the faith. Leaving the Divine origin of the bani unquestioned, couldn't an imperfect person be inspired by God and become a conduit for transmission of Divine wisdom? Does everyone who achieves the state of "God consciousness" become infallible? I ask these questions because I feel that elevating humans to the status of God on Earth creates a hierarchy which seems to run counter to the notion that none are high or low, that we all must be humble servants. I read a quote from Guru Gobind Singh ji on SikhWiki that reads "Those who call me God will fall into the deep pit of hell" (sorry for not providing full context of the quote or page number). And he also humbled himself to receive Amrit from the Panj Pyare. So we aren't supposed to think of our Guru as God. So why think of them as perfect? Would the religion lose something if we thought of them simply as highly spiritually realized non-perfect human beings?

No disrespect intended, please forgive if offense was received.
 

Sikhilove

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May 12, 2016
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Just curious about how everyone feels about the concept of infallibility. I won't suggest that the Gurus weren't spiritually-minded individuals or that they lacked virtue but why do we need them to be perfect? Yes, they were in touch with the God within. So were countless others throughout the history of the faith. Leaving the Divine origin of the bani unquestioned, couldn't an imperfect person be inspired by God and become a conduit for transmission of Divine wisdom? Does everyone who achieves the state of "God consciousness" become infallible? I ask these questions because I feel that elevating humans to the status of God on Earth creates a hierarchy which seems to run counter to the notion that none are high or low, that we all must be humble servants. I read a quote from Guru Gobind Singh ji on SikhWiki that reads "Those who call me God will fall into the deep pit of hell" (sorry for not providing full context of the quote or page number). And he also humbled himself to receive Amrit from the Panj Pyare. So we aren't supposed to think of our Guru as God. So why think of them as perfect? Would the religion lose something if we thought of them simply as highly spiritually realized non-perfect human beings?

No disrespect intended, please forgive if offense was received.
Anyone can be a Bhagat, an empty vessel for Truth to work through.

The Gurus considered themselves as the lowest of the low. Nanak himself calls himself a lowly worm.

The way u realise who you really are, is you put your ego and head on the ground and never lift it up.

There is no heiarchy and when u stop practicing the Truth psychology, you fall. That goes for everyone.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Just curious about how everyone feels about the concept of infallibility.
Infallibility is not a concept but a wishful thinking, to put it mildly.

I won't suggest that the Gurus weren't spiritually-minded individuals or that they lacked virtue but why do we need them to be perfect?
Who said we need the Sikh Gurus to be perfect?
If one opens the SGGS, our only Guru, randomly, one would notice how our Gurus talk about their own imperfections.

Yes, they were in touch with the God within. So were countless others throughout the history of the faith.
Aren't we all connected to The Source? If not, then we would not be here, to begin with.

Leaving the Divine origin of the bani unquestioned, couldn't an imperfect person be inspired by God and become a conduit for transmission of Divine wisdom?
I have no idea who gave you the notion that our Gurus were perfect. They were filled with divine wisdom though, despite their imperfections.

Does everyone who achieves the state of "God consciousness" become infallible?
Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by "God consciousness."
Would you like to elaborate that?

I ask these questions because I feel that elevating humans to the status of God on Earth creates a hierarchy which seems to run counter to the notion that none are high or low, that we all must be humble servants.
What's your point?
FYI, there is no hierarchy in Sikhi although hierarchy is the cornerstone of the Indic culture. Our Gurus arose like a lotus flower from the muck despite the worst negative environment of the time. The concept of Langar is the proof of equality.

I read a quote from Guru Gobind Singh ji on SikhWiki that reads "Those who call me God will fall into the deep pit of hell" (sorry for not providing full context of the quote or page number).
It is OK. As a matter of fact, Guru Gobind Singh never told us what he wrote. He never added his poetry to the SGGS but added his Dad's instead. Therefore, I would urge all not to second guess our Guru's decision but rather respect it.

And he also humbled himself to receive Amrit from the Panj Pyare.
Yes, he did, as per our oral history, which again shows the absence of hierarchy but rather the presence of equality.

So we aren't supposed to think of our Guru as God. So why think of them as perfect?
No and No.

Would the religion lose something if we thought of them simply as highly spiritually realized non-perfect human beings?
No, rather to the contrary in my opinion. Once again, I would urge you to study Gurbani and Sikh history. Guru Nanak went back to farming by establishing a new town called Kartarpur after handing over the Gurgadi to Guru Angad.
 
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RicktheSikh

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Infallibility is not a concept but a wishful thinking, to put it mildly.



Who said we need the Sikh Gurus to be perfect?
If one opens the SGGS, our only Guru, randomly, one would notice how our Gurus talk about their own imperfections.



Aren't we all connected to The Source? If not, then we would not be here, to begin with.



I have no idea who gave you the notion that our Gurus were perfect. They were filled with divine wisdom though, despite their imperfections.



Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by "God consciousness."
Would you like to elaborate that?



What's your point?
FYI, there is no hierarchy in Sikhi although hierarchy is the cornerstone of the Indic culture. Our Gurus arose like a lotus flower from the muck despite the worst negative environment of the time..



It is OK. As a matter of fact, Guru Gobind Singh never told us what he wrote. He never added his poetry to the SGGS but added his Dad's instead. Therefore, I would urge all not to second guess our Guru's decision but rather respect it.



Yes, he did, as per our oral history, which again shows the absence of hierarchy but of equality.



No and No.



No, rather to the contrary in my opinion. Once again, I would urge you to study Gurbani and Sikh history. Guru Nanak went back to farming by establishing a new town called Kartarpur after handing over the Gurgadi to Guru Angad.
Honestly, I don't know where I got the idea that the Gurus were thought of as perfect. Maybe I made that assumption because every word of Gurbani is perfect and all their actions were righteous. When the Guru talks about being imperfect and lowly like a worm I took that to mean in contrast with Ek Oankaar. By "God consciousness" I mean the achievement of the highest realm achievable before reaching Sach Khand, where the Panj Chor have long since fallen away and one's actions would be so righteous that the line between Guru and God might become difficult to distinguish. My point is/was that I got the impression that the Gurus were thought of as something resembling God incarnate (infallible) and that didn't make sense to me in relation to the other things I have learned so far. I am in the process of studying Gurbani and Sikh history, although I am years behind most forum members it seems.
 

sukhsingh

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Honestly, I don't know where I got the idea that the Gurus were thought of as perfect. Maybe I made that assumption because every word of Gurbani is perfect and all their actions were righteous. When the Guru talks about being imperfect and lowly like a worm I took that to mean in contrast with Ek Oankaar. By "God consciousness" I mean the achievement of the highest realm achievable before reaching Sach Khand, where the Panj Chor have long since fallen away and one's actions would be so righteous that the line between Guru and God might become difficult to distinguish. My point is/was that I got the impression that the Gurus were thought of as something resembling God incarnate (infallible) and that didn't make sense to me in relation to the other things I have learned so far. I am in the process of studying Gurbani and Sikh history, although I am years behind most forum members it seems.
Bro they always talk about that place, they talk about the qualities of that place, they talk about what that place looks like, the characteristics it have and also the characteristics it definitely doesn't have.. And then in my humble opinion that what it looks like.
Doesn't say anything about whether the writer is suggesting them qualities are ones they have?
 

ActsOfGod

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So why think of them as perfect? Would the religion lose something if we thought of them simply as highly spiritually realized non-perfect human beings?
Instead of asking if the religion would lose something, it's far more practical to ask if you personally would lose something.

Think of the Guru however you will. But make sure you cultivate a genuine relationship with the Guru. Guru is antarjami, he already knows your thoughts and your deepest feelings, so there is no point in trying to deceive him. Be honest and try to connect. And if you are sincere in your efforts, all your questions will be answered.

Good Luck!
[AoG]
 

sukhsingh

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Instead of asking if the religion would lose something, it's far more practical to ask if you personally would lose something.

Think of the Guru however you will. But make sure you cultivate a genuine relationship with the Guru. Guru is antarjami, he already knows your thoughts and your deepest feelings, so there is no point in trying to deceive him. Be honest and try to connect. And if you are sincere in your efforts, all your questions will be answered.

Good Luck!
[AoG]
Nobody knows the full truth . That is the truth. Guru, gyian, knowledge can help you contextualise, frame and provide a structured approach to understanding the world, existence but if you are in the business of finding absolutes then much better to be a sheep in my humble opinion
 

ActsOfGod

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Nobody knows the full truth . That is the truth.
Your second sentence above contradicts your first.

Guru, gyian, knowledge can help you contextualise, frame and provide a structured approach to understanding the world, existence but if you are in the business of finding absolutes then much better to be a sheep in my humble opinion
How did you conclude that I am finding absolutes?

"Guru, Gyan, Knowledge", you have lumped all three together. Guru is not the same as Gyan or Knowledge. What's the definition of Guru? Do you know? Or are you just reducing "Guru" to "teacher"? In Sikh thinking, Guru is not merely a teacher.
 

sukhsingh

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Your second sentence above contradicts your first.



How did you conclude that I am finding absolutes?

"Guru, Gyan, Knowledge", you have lumped all three together. Guru is not the same as Gyan or Knowledge. What's the definition of Guru? Do you know? Or are you just reducing "Guru" to "teacher"? In Sikh thinking, Guru is not merely a teacher.
I fully agree with you.. I have no definition of 'guru'. The closest I can get to one is that 'guru' is knowledge so yes is 'teacher'. I wasn't lumping anything together .. The very last thing I ever want to do is lump things together
 

Ishna

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{censored} the part about contradiction, I'd love to hear AoG tell more about this part "In Sikh thinking, Guru is not merely a teacher."

Can you tell us more please, @ActsOfGod ?

Thanks

Edit: Ow, my Australian slang got censored. :(
 

ActsOfGod

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As per Gurbani:

SGGS Ang 52, 53:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਛੂਟਨੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ
O Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: release comes only through the True Name.

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਸਰੇਵਣੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ
Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage.

ਆਗੈ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਹਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਨਿਥਾਵੇ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥
Hereafter, you shall be honored in the Court of the Lord; there, even the homeless find a home. ||1||

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਸਾਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵ
O Siblings of Destiny, service to the True Guru alone is True.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੁਠੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਪੂਰਨ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
When the True Guru is pleased, we obtain the Perfect, Unseen, Unknowable Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਦਿਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ
I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has bestowed the True Name.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਲਾਹਣਾ ਸਚੇ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ
Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.

ਸਚੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੈਨਣਾ ਸਚੇ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੨॥
True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2||

ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸਫਲੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਪਿ
With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.

ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਦਿਸਈ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਪਿ
None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.

ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਣਤਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
As He casts His Glance of Grace, we obtain the True Name, the Treasure of Excellence. ||3||

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ
The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਮਰੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੧੦੦॥
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||


SGGS Ang 618, 619:

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ
Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl:

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਉਪਜੀ ਦਇਆ
The Perfect Guru has revealed His power, and compassion has welled up in every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਵਡਾਈ ਕੀਨੀ ਕੁਸਲ ਖੇਮ ਸਭ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥
Blending me with Himself, He has blessed me with glorious greatness, and I have found pleasure and happiness. ||1||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਮੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਿ
The Perfect True Guru is always with me.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਹਾਲ ਰਹਾਉ
Meditating on the Supreme Lord God, I am forever in ecstasy. ||Pause||

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਥਾਨ ਥਨੰਤਰਿ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਪੇਖਉ ਸੋਈ
Inwardly and outwardly, in all places and interspaces, wherever I look, He is there.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥੧੧॥੩੯॥
Nanak has found the Guru, by great good fortune; no one else is as great as He. ||2||11||39||


SGGS Ang 394:

ਆਸਾ ਘਰੁ ਮਹਲਾ
Aasaa, Seventh House, Fifth Mehl:

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਤ ਧਿਆਈ
Meditate continually on the Name of the Lord within your heart.

ਸੰਗੀ ਸਾਥੀ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਂਈ ॥੧॥
Thus you shall save all your companions and associates. ||1||

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ
My Guru is always with me, near at hand.

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on Him, I cherish Him forever. ||1||Pause||

ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ
Your actions seem so sweet to me.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਾਂਗੈ ॥੨॥੪੨॥੯੩॥
Nanak begs for the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||42||93||
 

RicktheSikh

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So I've been reading Gurbani and came across the 8th ashtapadee in the Sukhmani Sahib, page 272-274. Please forgive me for not posting the entire shabad, I tried to earlier but was not permitted due to the character limit. Starting from the middle of page 273 it reads...

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਤਿਆਗਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी अह्मबुधि तिआगत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ahaʼn▫buḏẖ ṯi▫āgaṯ.
The God-conscious being renounces his proud ego.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै मनि परमानंद ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai man parmānanḏ.
In the mind of the God-conscious being, there is supreme bliss.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै घरि सदा अनंद ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai gẖar saḏā anand.
In the home of the God-conscious being, there is everlasting bliss.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਨਿਵਾਸ
ब्रहम गिआनी सुख सहज निवास ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sukẖ sahj nivās.
The God-conscious being dwells in peaceful ease.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੫॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी का नही बिनास ॥५॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī kā nahī binās. ||5||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being shall never perish. ||5||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਬੇਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी ब्रहम का बेता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī barahm kā beṯā.
The God-conscious being knows God.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੇਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी एक संगि हेता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ek sang heṯā.
The God-conscious being is in love with the One alone.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਅਚਿੰਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै होइ अचिंत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ho▫e acẖinṯ.
The God-conscious being is carefree.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੰਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी का निरमल मंत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā nirmal manṯ.
Pure are the Teachings of the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी जिसु करै प्रभु आपि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī jis karai parabẖ āp.
The God-conscious being is made so by God Himself.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਬਡ ਪਰਤਾਪ
ब्रहम गिआनी का बड परताप ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā bad parṯāp.
The God-conscious being is gloriously great.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਦਰਸੁ ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈਐ
ब्रहम गिआनी का दरसु बडभागी पाईऐ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ḏaras badbẖāgī pā▫ī▫ai.
The Darshan, the Blessed Vision of the God-conscious being, is obtained by great good fortune.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ बलि बलि जाईऐ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o bal bal jā▫ī▫ai.
To the God-conscious being, I make my life a sacrifice.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ खोजहि महेसुर ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o kẖojėh mahesur.
The God-conscious being is sought by the great god Shiva.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी आपि परमेसुर ॥६॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī āp parmesur. ||6||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी की कीमति नाहि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī kīmaṯ nāhi.
The God-conscious being cannot be appraised.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਸਗਲ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै सगल मन माहि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai sagal man māhi.
The God-conscious being has all within his mind.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਕਉਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਭੇਦੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का कउन जानै भेदु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ka▫un jānai bẖeḏ.
Who can know the mystery of the God-conscious being?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ सदा अदेसु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o saḏā aḏes.
Forever bow to the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਕਥਿਆ ਜਾਇ ਅਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का कथिआ न जाइ अधाख्यरु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā kathi▫ā na jā▫e aḏẖākẖ▫yar.
The God-conscious being cannot be described in words.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी सरब का ठाकुरु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sarab kā ṯẖākur.
The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਉਨੁ ਬਖਾਨੈ
ब्रहम गिआनी की मिति कउनु बखानै ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī miṯ ka▫un bakẖānai.
Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਾਨੈ
ब्रहम गिआनी की गति ब्रहम गिआनी जानै ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī gaṯ barahm gi▫ānī jānai.
Only the God-conscious being can know the state of the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का अंतु न पारु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā anṯ na pār.
The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ ॥੭॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी कउ सदा नमसकारु ॥७॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o saḏā namaskār. ||7||
O Nanak, to the God-conscious being, bow forever in reverence. ||7||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਾ ਕਰਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी सभ स्रिसटि का करता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sabẖ sarisat kā karṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦ ਜੀਵੈ ਨਹੀ ਮਰਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी सद जीवै नही मरता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏ jīvai nahī marṯā.
The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी मुकति जुगति जीअ का दाता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī mukaṯ jugaṯ jī▫a kā ḏāṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Giver of the way of liberation of the soul.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी पूरन पुरखु बिधाता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī pūran purakẖ biḏẖāṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਅਨਾਥ ਕਾ ਨਾਥੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी अनाथ का नाथु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī anāth kā nāth.
The God-conscious being is the helper of the helpless.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹਾਥੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का सभ ऊपरि हाथु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā sabẖ ūpar hāth.
The God-conscious being extends his hand to all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਸਗਲ ਅਕਾਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का सगल अकारु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā sagal akār.
The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.

On to page 274...

(problem copy/pasting here, apologies)
The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ
ब्रहम गिआनी की सोभा ब्रहम गिआनी बनी ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī sobẖā barahm gi▫ānī banī.
The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी सरब का धनी ॥८॥८॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī sarab kā ḏẖanī. ||8||8||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||

Reading this inclines me to not only change my thought that the Gurus might not have been perfect, I am inclined to believe that they absolutely were/are perfect. I'm still gaining in understanding of Gurbani and do not profess a full understanding of it. I would love to learn more about your own take on this shabad and your views of perfection in relation to braham giani. Thanks for your time.
 

sukhsingh

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Your second sentence above contradicts your first.



How did you conclude that I am finding absolutes?

"Guru, Gyan, Knowledge", you have lumped all three together. Guru is not the same as Gyan or Knowledge. What's the definition of Guru? Do you know? Or are you just reducing "Guru" to "teacher"? In Sikh thinking, Guru is not merely a teacher.
Bro I wasn't disagreeing with you I was expanding upon. I wasn't suggesting you were looking for or advocating absolutisms
 

Tejwant Singh

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So I've been reading Gurbani and came across the 8th ashtapadee in the Sukhmani Sahib, page 272-274. Please forgive me for not posting the entire shabad, I tried to earlier but was not permitted due to the character limit. Starting from the middle of page 273 it reads...

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਤਿਆਗਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी अह्मबुधि तिआगत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ahaʼn▫buḏẖ ṯi▫āgaṯ.
The God-conscious being renounces his proud ego.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै मनि परमानंद ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai man parmānanḏ.
In the mind of the God-conscious being, there is supreme bliss.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै घरि सदा अनंद ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai gẖar saḏā anand.
In the home of the God-conscious being, there is everlasting bliss.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਨਿਵਾਸ
ब्रहम गिआनी सुख सहज निवास ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sukẖ sahj nivās.
The God-conscious being dwells in peaceful ease.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੫॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी का नही बिनास ॥५॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī kā nahī binās. ||5||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being shall never perish. ||5||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਬੇਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी ब्रहम का बेता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī barahm kā beṯā.
The God-conscious being knows God.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੇਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी एक संगि हेता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ek sang heṯā.
The God-conscious being is in love with the One alone.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਅਚਿੰਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै होइ अचिंत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ho▫e acẖinṯ.
The God-conscious being is carefree.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੰਤ
ब्रहम गिआनी का निरमल मंत ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā nirmal manṯ.
Pure are the Teachings of the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी जिसु करै प्रभु आपि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī jis karai parabẖ āp.
The God-conscious being is made so by God Himself.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਬਡ ਪਰਤਾਪ
ब्रहम गिआनी का बड परताप ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā bad parṯāp.
The God-conscious being is gloriously great.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਦਰਸੁ ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈਐ
ब्रहम गिआनी का दरसु बडभागी पाईऐ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ḏaras badbẖāgī pā▫ī▫ai.
The Darshan, the Blessed Vision of the God-conscious being, is obtained by great good fortune.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ बलि बलि जाईऐ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o bal bal jā▫ī▫ai.
To the God-conscious being, I make my life a sacrifice.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ खोजहि महेसुर ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o kẖojėh mahesur.
The God-conscious being is sought by the great god Shiva.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी आपि परमेसुर ॥६॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī āp parmesur. ||6||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी की कीमति नाहि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī kīmaṯ nāhi.
The God-conscious being cannot be appraised.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਸਗਲ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
ब्रहम गिआनी कै सगल मन माहि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai sagal man māhi.
The God-conscious being has all within his mind.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਕਉਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਭੇਦੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का कउन जानै भेदु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ka▫un jānai bẖeḏ.
Who can know the mystery of the God-conscious being?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी कउ सदा अदेसु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o saḏā aḏes.
Forever bow to the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਕਥਿਆ ਜਾਇ ਅਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का कथिआ न जाइ अधाख्यरु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā kathi▫ā na jā▫e aḏẖākẖ▫yar.
The God-conscious being cannot be described in words.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी सरब का ठाकुरु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sarab kā ṯẖākur.
The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਉਨੁ ਬਖਾਨੈ
ब्रहम गिआनी की मिति कउनु बखानै ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī miṯ ka▫un bakẖānai.
Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਾਨੈ
ब्रहम गिआनी की गति ब्रहम गिआनी जानै ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī gaṯ barahm gi▫ānī jānai.
Only the God-conscious being can know the state of the God-conscious being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का अंतु न पारु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā anṯ na pār.
The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੁ ॥੭॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी कउ सदा नमसकारु ॥७॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī ka▫o saḏā namaskār. ||7||
O Nanak, to the God-conscious being, bow forever in reverence. ||7||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਾ ਕਰਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी सभ स्रिसटि का करता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī sabẖ sarisat kā karṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦ ਜੀਵੈ ਨਹੀ ਮਰਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी सद जीवै नही मरता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏ jīvai nahī marṯā.
The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी मुकति जुगति जीअ का दाता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī mukaṯ jugaṯ jī▫a kā ḏāṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Giver of the way of liberation of the soul.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ
ब्रहम गिआनी पूरन पुरखु बिधाता ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī pūran purakẖ biḏẖāṯā.
The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਅਨਾਥ ਕਾ ਨਾਥੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी अनाथ का नाथु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī anāth kā nāth.
The God-conscious being is the helper of the helpless.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹਾਥੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का सभ ऊपरि हाथु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā sabẖ ūpar hāth.
The God-conscious being extends his hand to all.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਸਗਲ ਅਕਾਰੁ
ब्रहम गिआनी का सगल अकारु ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā sagal akār.
The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.

On to page 274...

(problem copy/pasting here, apologies)
The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ
ब्रहम गिआनी की सोभा ब्रहम गिआनी बनी ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kī sobẖā barahm gi▫ānī banī.
The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥
नानक ब्रहम गिआनी सरब का धनी ॥८॥८॥
Nānak barahm gi▫ānī sarab kā ḏẖanī. ||8||8||
O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||

Reading this inclines me to not only change my thought that the Gurus might not have been perfect, I am inclined to believe that they absolutely were/are perfect. I'm still gaining in understanding of Gurbani and do not profess a full understanding of it. I would love to learn more about your own take on this shabad and your views of perfection in relation to braham giani. Thanks for your time.
So I've been reading Gurbani and came across the 8th ashtapadee in the Sukhmani Sahib, page 272-274. Please forgive me for not posting the entire shabad, I tried to earlier but was not permitted due to the character limit. Starting from the middle of page 273 it reads...
NP.

Reading this inclines me to not only change my thought that the Gurus might not have been perfect, I am inclined to believe that they absolutely were/are perfect. I'm still gaining in understanding of Gurbani and do not profess a full understanding of it. I would love to learn more about your own take on this shabad and your views of perfection in relation to braham giani. Thanks for your time.
Pardon my ignorance, would you be kind enough to explain what made you conclude that our Gurus were perfect from the above?
The name Sikhi itself rejects perfection.
As far as the words like Brahamgyani above, Sant- incorrectly translated as a saint, Bhagats etc are concerned, they are used in the SGGS as adjectives, not as titles of one's final hierarchical destination because we are not perfect. The reason being our minds keep on hopscotching.

If our Gurus were perfect, as you keep on insisting, then the hot plate where Guru Arjan sat would never have gotten hot nor would have the fiend been able to chop our 9th Guru ji's head.

Self-betterment for which Gurbani gives us the tools to, puts us on the path towards perfection, hence it is a journey, not a destination.

Perfection is Utopia as per Sikhi.
 
Last edited:

RicktheSikh

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Tejwant ji, thanks for responding. When considering gurbani I do so with two assumptions present in my mind. The first is that Ek Oankaar doesn't make mistakes, that is to say that the One Creator couldn't possibly make a mistake because whatever is willed is so and there is no standard apart from or greater than Ek Oankaar to compare to. The second assumption is that every word of Gurbani is true and perfect. These are assumptions because I am human and cannot know these things with certainty but these are assumptions I think every gursikh holds to be true.

I'm not concerning myself with the translation of the term Brahamgyani in this instance, I am examining the content of what is said about such individuals. I don't take the term to mean there is some kind of video game type "Level 13 unlocked, Brahamgyani" status either.

So on to what made me rethink things...
First off, we can surmise that the Brahamgyani is not the whole of God (before you say "there is no God in Sikhi as God is defined", I'll explain that when I use the term God I mean the Akal Purakh), by the fact that the Akal Purakh doesn't have a proud ego to renounce, the bani says that the Brahamgyani knows God, is in love with the One, and becomes a Brahamgyani because God makes them so. So these are humans who have been purified to display virtues such as renouncing ego, being helpers of the helpless, extending their hand to all and other virtues mentioned in the first part of the shabad that I didn't post (apologies again). Then my mind was totally blown by the other descriptions mentioned such as the Brahamgyani having no end or limitation, only knowable by the Brahamgyani themself, indescribable, being the perfect Supreme Being that orchestrates all things, the Creator, the Formless Lord (my copy/paste was missing the gurmukhi text here, sorry).

Perhaps this is all hyperbole. I'm sure that if your personal interpretation of Sikhi is devoid of mysticism you would say that is the case. I'm a bit of a mystic, though, and this is a spiritual path, after all, so I am inclined to think that some things are possible that do not make logical sense to the human mind no matter how educated or analytical the individual.

Following this train of thought the Gurus were most certainly (again, I am a student and can only assume) Brahamgyani in that their teachings were pure and they were/are the Givers of the way of liberation of the soul as mentioned in the bani. Being so close with the One that their description mirrors that of God would indicate to me that even if these descriptions were hyperbole it would be highly unlikely for the Gurus to make mistakes. Ek Oankaar doesn't make mistakes, neither would a Brahamgyani (in my lowly estimation).

I realize that I am relying on a translation to come to this conclusion and there are Gurmukhi words that I posted that would be of benefit to understand more, such as (forgive the Roman transliteration) parmesur and purakh bidhata. Overall, though, I take the message of this shabad to mean that a Brahamgyani becomes so close to Braham/God/Akal that the difference is indistinguishable and since God doesn't make mistakes...

Tejwant ji, as far as your examples of Sri Arjan Dev ji and Sri Teg Bahadur ji being unmartyrable if they were perfect I posit that it would be possible if it was their will for it to happen, given that as Brahamgyani they would have been able to orchestrate all things.

Again, I'm just a student. If this doesn't fit with your interpretation of Sikhi you are welcome to disregard it. Stay in Chardi Kala everyone!:)
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant ji, thanks for responding. When considering gurbani I do so with two assumptions present in my mind. The first is that Ek Oankaar doesn't make mistakes, that is to say that the One Creator couldn't possibly make a mistake because whatever is willed is so and there is no standard apart from or greater than Ek Oankaar to compare to. The second assumption is that every word of Gurbani is true and perfect. These are assumptions because I am human and cannot know these things with certainty but these are assumptions I think every gursikh holds to be true.
RicktheSikh ji,
Guru Fateh.

In my opinion, your assumptions are misplaced because you make Ik Ong Kaar into a deity I am afraid.

As Ik Ong Kaar is the creation, then the question arises, which one is perfect?

The volcano that erupted in Guatemala where 100's have died, 100's injured and 100's missing?
Or
The volcano erupted in Hawaii where only property damage is occurring.
It seems, your usage of perfection does not fit the Sikhi mould.

I'm not concerning myself with the translation of the term Brahamgyani in this instance, I am examining the content of what is said about such individuals. I don't take the term to mean there is some kind of video game type "Level 13 unlocked, Brahamgyani" status either.
This Ashtpadi gives us the tools about how to be on the path of being a Brahamgyani by sharing all his/her traits.

So on to what made me rethink things...
First off, we can surmise that the Brahamgyani is not the whole of God (before you say "there is no God in Sikhi as God is defined", I'll explain that when I use the term God I mean the Akal Purakh), by the fact that the Akal Purakh doesn't have a proud ego to renounce, the bani says that the Brahamgyani knows God, is in love with the One, and becomes a Brahamgyani because God makes them so. So these are humans who have been purified to display virtues such as renouncing ego, being helpers of the helpless, extending their hand to all and other virtues mentioned in the first part of the shabad that I didn't post (apologies again). Then my mind was totally blown by the other descriptions mentioned such as the Brahamgyani having no end or limitation, only knowable by the Brahamgyani themself, indescribable, being the perfect Supreme Being that orchestrates all things, the Creator, the Formless Lord (my copy/paste was missing the gurmukhi text here, sorry
Once again you are mixing the thoughts of Abrahamic religions and Hinduism by keeping on giving the human traits to The Source of All. This has nothing to do with Sikhi.
The terms like "Akal Purakh doesn't have a proud ego to renounce," "So these are humans who have been purified," are not in the Sikhi lexicon for the right reasons.

Perhaps this is all hyperbole. I'm sure that if your personal interpretation of Sikhi is devoid of mysticism you would say that is the case. I'm a bit of a mystic, though, and this is a spiritual path, after all, so I am inclined to think that some things are possible that do not make logical sense to the human mind no matter how educated or analytical the individual.
I am a bit confused by the above.
Are you trying to imply that my path may not be the mystic one but yours sure is as per you? That is not a Sikhi thought either. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can find that out.

Following this train of thought the Gurus were most certainly (again, I am a student and can only assume) Brahamgyani in that their teachings were pure and they were/are the Givers of the way of liberation of the soul as mentioned in the bani. Being so close with the One that their description mirrors that of God would indicate to me that even if these descriptions were hyperbole it would be highly unlikely for the Gurus to make mistakes. Ek Oankaar doesn't make mistakes, neither would a Brahamgyani (in my lowly estimation).
Yes, our Gurus were Brahamgyanis and they also share the open secret with us how we can also hopscotch into that realm. You keep on forgetting that our Gurus were Sikhs first and foremost hence were not afraid to make mistakes.

I realize that I am relying on a translation to come to this conclusion and there are Gurmukhi words that I posted that would be of benefit to understand more, such as (forgive the Roman transliteration) parmesur and purakh bidhata. Overall, though, I take the message of this shabad to mean that a Brahamgyani becomes so close to Braham/God/Akal that the difference is indistinguishable and since God doesn't make mistakes...
Omnipresence has no separation.

Tejwant ji, as far as your examples of Sri Arjan Dev ji and Sri Teg Bahadur ji being unmartyrable if they were perfect I posit that it would be possible if it was their will for it to happen, given that as Brahamgyani they would have been able to orchestrate all things.
Your above statement is a bit confusing to me. Please elaborate it.

Again, I'm just a student. If this doesn't fit with your interpretation of Sikhi you are welcome to disregard it. Stay in Chardi Kala everyone!:)
We are all students. The name Sikh defines us all. And for the rest, please leave it to the readers. Try not to decide on their behalf.
Thanks for the interesting interaction.
 
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RicktheSikh

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RicktheSikh ji,
Guru Fateh.

In my opinion, your assumptions are misplaced because you make Ik Ong Kaar into a deity I am afraid.

As Ik Ong Kaar is the creation, then the question arises, what is perfect?

The volcano that erupted in Guatemala where 100's have died, 100's injured and 100's missing?
Or
The volcano erupted in Hawaii where only property damage is occurring.
It seems, your usage of perfection does not fit the Sikhi mould.



This Ashtpadi gives us the tools about how to be on the path of being a Brahamgyani by sharing all his/her traits.



Once again you are mixing the thoughts of Abrahamic religions and Hinduism by keeping on giving the human traits to The Source of All. This has nothing to do with Sikhi.
The terms like "Akal Purakh doesn't have a proud ego to renounce," "So these are humans who have been purified," are not in the Sikhi lexicon for the right reasons.



I am a bit confused by the above.
Are you trying to imply that my path may not be the mystic one but yours sure it as per you? That is not a Sikhi thought either. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can find that out.



Yes, our Gurus were Brahamgyanis and they also share the open secret with us how we can also hopscotch into that realm. You keep on forgetting that our Gurus were Sikhs first and foremost hence were not afraid to make mistakes.



Omnipresence has no separation.



Your above statement is a bit confusing to me. Please elaborate it.



We are all students. The name Sikh defines us. And for the rest, please leave it to the readers. Try not to decide on their behalf.
Thanks for the interesting interaction.
Guru fateh, Tejwant ji.

I was under the impression that Ek Oankaar is both the Creator and the creation, similar to a panentheistic view of God. That is to say that "God" is found in all matter in the Universe but is also beyond the realm of what we could ever physically observe and also exists in ways beyond our understanding. An immortal supreme being IS a deity in my understanding.

I am not ascribing human traits to the Souce of All, I'm saying that the mention of human traits like ego indicate the Brahamgyani is human and not the One.

The mention of mysticism was to address the possibility that some may hold an almost atheistic interpretation of Sikhi with very little regard for the mysterious unknown and a greater focus on the practical application of Gurbani. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was directed at you personally, it was more addressed to the forum at large. I realize I began my post greeting you personally hence the possible confusion. Sorry for that. I have come to feel that each individual's Sikhi and the way Gurbani speaks to each of us is so varied that even discussing our personal interpretations may interfere with that of others. I will tread lightly so as not to place my views over anyone else's.

To elaborate on my thoughts about the "unmartyrableness" of the Gurus, I was referring to the line of the shabad I posted that says the Brahamgyani is able to orchestrate all things. If that is the case and the Gurus were Brahamgyani then they could have chosen to be martyred for reasons I will not presume to know or even venture to guess.

Thank you, Tejwant ji for the thoughtful point-by-point consideration. Sikhs of every stripe come to this forum for philosophical discussion and you never fail to deliver.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Henderson, NV.
I was under the impression that Ek Oankaar is both the Creatosr and the creation, similar to a panentheistic view of God. That is to say that "God" is found in all matter in the Universe but is also beyond the realm of what we could ever physically observe and also exists in ways beyond our understanding.
Yes, indeed. That is what omnipresence means. I was talking about the Creation part only in the context.

An immortal supreme being IS a deity in my understanding.
Sikhi is an idea based pragmatic way of life, not personality based dogmatic one. The above understanding belongs to the deity based religions, not to Sikhi. Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity but Creative Energy as per my understanding. You may check my understanding of Moolmantar. I will post the URLs below.

I am not ascribing human traits to the Souce of All, I'm saying that the mention of human traits like ego indicate the Brahamgyani is human and not the One.
As you call Ik Ong Kaar, "An immortal supreme being IS a deity in my understanding," you may check in your posts where you have given human attributes. The above in bold contradicts what you said earlier, here below.

Following this train of thought the Gurus were most certainly (again, I am a student and can only assume) Brahamgyani in that their teachings were pure and they were/are the Givers of the way of liberation of the soul as mentioned in the bani. Being so close with the One that their description mirrors that of God would indicate to me that even if these descriptions were hyperbole it would be highly unlikely for the Gurus to make mistakes. Ek Oankaar doesn't make mistakes, neither would a Brahamgyani (in my lowly estimation).
Yes, our Gurus were Brahamgyanis and they also share the open secret with us how we can also hopscotch into that realm. You keep on forgetting that our Gurus were Sikhs first and foremost hence were not afraid to make mistakes.

I realize that I am relying on a translation to come to this conclusion and there are Gurmukhi words that I posted that would be of benefit to understand more, such as (forgive the Roman transliteration) parmesur and purakh bidhata. Overall, though, I take the message of this shabad to mean that a Brahamgyani becomes so close to Braham/God/Akal that the difference is indistinguishable and since God doesn't make mistakes..
The mention of mysticism was to address the possibility that some may hold an almost atheistic interpretation of Sikhi with very little regard for the mysterious unknown and a greater focus on the practical application of Gurbani. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was directed at you personally, it was more addressed to the forum at large. I realize I began my post greeting you personally hence the possible confusion. Sorry for that. I have come to feel that each individual's Sikhi and the way Gurbani speaks to each of us is so varied that even discussing our personal interpretations may interfere with that of others. I will tread lightly so as not to place my views over anyone else's.
Yes, but the fact of the matter is you have not the faintest about the journey of the others but your own.

To elaborate on my thoughts about the "unmartyrableness" of the Gurus, I was referring to the line of the shabad I posted that says the Brahamgyani is able to orchestrate all things. If that is the case and the Gurus were Brahamgyani then they could have chosen to be martyred for reasons I will not presume to know or even venture to guess.
I beg to differ with you. It has nothing to do with our Gurus' choices as you mentioned above but it has everything to do with Hukum that a Sikh has to learn to accept. Our Gurus gave us the very tangible examples with their own sacrifices to show us that.

Thank you, Tejwant ji for the thoughtful point-by-point consideration. Sikhs of every stripe come to this forum for philosophical discussion and you never fail to deliver.
SPN is a very large worldwide cyber Sadh Sangat. We all end up playing our little parts in that aspect.


The Mool Mantar: Sikhi's Blueprint And Roadmap

IK ONG KAAR- The Nature And The Nurturer
 
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