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Karni Nama And Raj Nama: The Sikh Book Of Prophecy

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Bhagat singh ji,
What i wrote is from my own experiences while growing up and on my travels around the world. Secondly the Colour is defiend in the SRM as XNTHIA....its neither saffron..nor light yellow..and greyish blue.. Xanthic is BASANTEE in ordinary Punjabi..as in Rang de basantee chola !!...SAFFRON..that UGLY GARISH ORANGE is NOT a sikh colour for the Nishan Sahib...Hindu Mandirs carry saffron flags as wella s RED Flags.

SRM: At a high-level site in every Gurdwara should be installed the nishan sahib (Sikh flag). The cloth of the flag should be either of xanthic or of greyish blue colour and on top of the flag post, there should either be a spearhead or a Khanda (a straight dagger with convex side edges leading to slanting top edges ending in a vertex).

Wikipedia is wrong as per SRM.....its author is just following other anonymous sources.each copying from the other...just google and all the sources lead to one another !! A to B..to C..back to A

Hope this helps if at all..sorry .

 
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Aug 18, 2005
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Fremont, California
Is there Prophecy in Sikhism?

What is the purpose and function of Prophecy?

You have to study a non idolistic culture where prophecy was prominent.

In Biblical Literature prophecy does not only mean prediction of the future. It also is a message spoken by a prophet with the soul purpose of inspiring change in behavior and encourage faith, to improve character. Prophecy is also portrayed in teachings. Biblical prophets would not succumb to the evil vices and sin.

Jewish prophecy has stopped but it is prominent in Pentecostal Christians. Some are fake and some are from sincere people who claim to taste the Amrit of God according to their faith. Their minds blossom and their character improves. They do sewa make an honest living. Some prophecy to exploit while others prophecy to share their inspiration about God to others to edify the collective. Some present their prophetic message with the introduction like "Thus saith the Lord" and they speak in first and second person ("I" and "You"). Others present prophecy in the form of teaching, counseling, or explaining a vision (not a halucination). Some predict the future some don't.

The Sikh Gurus cannot be totally considered as prophets, nor can we say they did not speak prophecy. They were Gurus that were blessed with prophectic wisdom because they were in touch with Reality, not succumbing to the 5 vices or sin.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji predicted what works and what does not work in Jap Ji Sahib.

shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ]

Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in
the end.​
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]

So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?​
hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

Moses declared one God and Guru Nanak stressed one God in Mool Mantra.

 

JimRinX

SPNer
Aug 13, 2008
166
148
Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.
All jis!
Your Spirited Defense of Universal Brotherhood - against the attempts of an 'Anti-Muslim' personage, is WONDERFUL; but then, as an American Buddhist (and, thus, a Minority - despite being a 'white male'), I've made it my business to try and show a little Love ot the Muslims - and Sikhs! (always a 'Gurtafeh' to my puzzled looking neighbors) - about me, who I know to be under assault by those who claim to embrace the Teachings of the 'Prince of Peace' (Jesus), but - mostly - see their belief, as an unfortunate excuse (Justification?) to dream of reliving the unfortunate Historical Events known as The Crusades.
I've been thinking, ever since I read 'An Introduction to Sikhism', that the Sikhi - if anybody - can serve as the arbitors of Peace; as you are some of the most unflinch-ingly dedicated 'peaceniks' on the planet - despite the Kirtanas!
One correction, though: Prophecy IS a Real Thing. It doesn't affect (negate?) Gurmat in the way that you think it does, for the same reason that it often seems so vague.
We all do indeed have Gurmat - but we also do deeds, and they become part of the Universal Book (or Record) of Life; so, though we make our future decisions based on our Free Will, they are all - in a very real way - already set down in that Book; which is why one can only read it if one has entered the Transcedant State (I'm trying to remember the proper Punjabi words for these things, but my memory fails me), in which we are 'seeing, though we have no eyes,' etc..
In this state, Time becomes more like a direction - Left or Right, become Past of Future (somewhere a neuroscientist - or a Urologist {you know who YOU are, Ha, Ha!} is going 'Tsk, tsk! That's just the Neurons in this misguided non-atheists' Temporal Lobe misfiring!'); and that Fact is why we are not normally attuned to the senses that we all have when we Die - as well as why, when a still mortal being 'visits' that state, he/she may catch a glimpse of a Future Incarnation, but never of the Future of his/her current one.
So I've observed.
Harsimiritkaur ji
I take acception to your indicating that the 'Biblical Prophets' never gave into Sin; as many, many of these personages 'Prophetic Visions' were used as - and still are being used as - Justification for WARS and all kinds of other attrocities!
Look at Lot; he escaped Soddom - supposedly the only 'Good Man', then proceded to 'restart his tribe' with his teen-aged daughters; a serious Crime, in todays world!
Also, I would like to know: Just what is the difference between a "vision" and a "halucination"?
Let me enlighten you: The former is a "vision" that the Orthodoxy of the day accepts - the latter is a "vision" that will get made to sit on a Red Hot Plate.
Because I'm an Ex-Catholic Buddhist - one whose been 'under attack' since someone I fired told the Church about my own 'vision' (which, of course, then became a halucination; which, of course, got me labeled 'Insane' - by a Catholic Doctor who deliberately messed up my Social Security Disability Pension Claims and Appeals - while they deliberately ignore my Chronic Pain. Would you commit a Crime - a 'sin' - to be free from it? I was forced to - and it's THEIR doings, not my morals, that are to be questioned!) I can tell you just what that feels like!
I'm sorry to dump on you, but - in the 14 years since they started plotting against my Civil Rights - I've had all the Christian Hypocracy I can stand. they told me, after finding out about my Neuropathy, that they don't care that they messed up my Official Documents; according to them, it's OK - as, "Leaving the Catholic Church is CRAZY and it SHOULD BE PAINFUL." They also think I should be, "Made to suffer, for refusing the Lord."
These people made me act like a cornered animal to survive - to not be in Pain - and I'll always RESENT IT!
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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I feel it important to intervene here. The thread topic is actually a mater of doctrinal importance. Whether or not the Karni Nama and the Raj Nama have any standing as guiding documents of the Sikh religion.

This thread is not prelude to re-writing a chapter on metaphysics, or for personal theories about spirituality or eastern religion. Discussion really has to hone down finely on key questions.

One key question is whether "prophecy" has any significance or meaning within Sikhism? In other words, is it part of Guru Nanak's message/

Another key question is to define what we mean by "prophecy."

Another key area for discussion is the historical origins of the documents.

Do their sources and origins contribute to our understanding of whether they fit or do not fit within Sikhism?

Digressions into metaphysical theories, interfaith constructions, examples from unrelated religious experiences -- these sidetrack the topic, and will be treated accordingly. So please confine the discussion to these two documents "Karni Nama" and "Raj Nama." Bring in other information and personal insights only as they shed light on understanding the place of these documents, or lack of place, within Sikhism. Or I will need to create another thread and move posts. Thank you.
 
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Gurmit Singh

SPNer
Jan 29, 2009
23
72
I agree with Gyani Jarnail Singh's comments but my Question is why such stories are shared by the Internet Moderators because I find that
despite long discussions end result is nothing? In fact, I have not read such Books because for me "Guru Granth Sahib" up to Mundavani
having pages 1 to 1429 is enough to read, recite, comprehend, understand and practice during the span of whole life. If one could do with devotion and
humility, then no time is left for reading secondary literature floated by the past and current authors/writers merely to earn their livelihood.

Since "Guru Granth Sahib" is the Sacred Scripture of the Sikhs, we should not waste our time in reading or discussing such false/fairy tales, such as
Raag Mala, Gur Bilas Patshahi 6, Gur Bilas Patshahi 10, Bachiter Natak, the socalled Dasam Granth, Guru Keeyaan Sakhian, Mehma Parkash, Suraj Parkash, Panth Parkash, Sau Sakhi, various janamSakhian and the like.

Similarly, there are several lengthy Articles shared through www.sikhnet.com and other web sites, which do not reveal the Truth but confuse the Sikhs.
It is better if the Sikhs start concentrating on Gurbaani as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib and to elevate their lives based on the Truth and Righteous deeds at all times. Eagerly awaiting your advice/comments for future guidance.

With best wishes,

Gurmit Singh
(Sydney-Australia)
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Guru Piayario jios,
Sardar Gurmit Singh Ji'
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

Sardar Gurmit Singh Ji is absolutley correct about the Guru Granth sahib Ji and Gurbani as the One and ONLY eternal truth.
But what we face, espcecially with the advent of the Internet is that our Youth as well as the adults are exposed to all this utter rubbish....like Kandeh..or THORNS planted along the Way towards SGGS. In order that these kandeh dont ***** the feet of the unwary sikhs, sikhs who as yet dont have the full benefits that sole faith in the Gurbani enshriend in the Guru granth sahib ji can give..these fresh mided sikhs ahve to have help to REMOVE these Kandehs..thorns swept away and the Path towards SGGS made clear.

I viisted almost all SGPC mantained Historical Gurdwaras..some not historical but well attended...and these Gurdwars have Managers, and a Gurmat Parchaar Bookshop supposed to have books on Sikhism free or for sale. I found that more than 90% of those books are by dubious authors and all "selling" FAKE Gurmatt:....gurmatt olf the type exposed in thsi Karninamh, raajnamah, sau sakhis, shastramal, naam mala, lineages of gurus, udasis, nirmalas, gurbani paaths with benefits according to number of paaths, bachans of this Guru sahib and that Guru sahib..but actually MANMATT Bachans etc etc as wella s Jantrees, rashi fals, shubh dins etc etc. Most of the AUTHENTIC GURMATT books requested..were "out of stock/out of print". This answer was provided to me a sI asked specifically for those books...to the New Sikh..he/she will only KNOW what is DISPLAYED in the Glass shelves..and BUY from those. The worst culprit in this matter is Gurdwara fateh garh Sahib...the biggest insult to the memory of the Great Shaeeds that showed us to live our lives according to Gurmatt.....Nikkean Zindaahn..Waddeh Saakeh..Sahibzadahs Fateh Singh and Zorawar singh !!

With the Internet..its become so much easier to spread more Kandehs..thorns..in the millions...especailly so when the SGPC and the Takhats Jathedars under its control have taken over the task of becoming nurseries to grow kandeh and export them free of charge to all and sundry..Now MORE WEEDS grow in the fields of Kartar that Guru nanak ji planted....the NAAM "wheat" is sp{censored}..... In my most humble opinion its just not enough for us to say and keep on saying..that SGGS is our one and only Guru..read Gurbani ONLY. A tiny minority of Sikhs already know that and do follow it as Veer Ji Gurmit Singh Ji suggested..BUT the Vast Majority out there need GUIDANCE, they need ANSWERS, they need Counter arguments,..they NEED CONVINCING..to leave all this rubbish aside..and concentrate on the JEWEL...our Khazanah. Just like a Good Farmer who never rests and lets up in his battle against weeds..we too cannot afford to rest or let the "Goodness of Wheat" be the sole point in our favour. WEED CONTROL is what this all about.

Its our sacred duty to fellow sikhs to help provide the CORRECT and as per GURMATT views on all matters..even if they keep coming up again and again. For as long as there are anti-sikhs who will keep on wriiting and publishing and distributing nati-gurmatt materials..we will ahve to keep on countering them by providing the GURMATT viewpoint. This battle will never end...just see how the Bachitar natak "battle" began nealry 150 years ago....now raging like a forest fire...IF not for the efforts of many like Bhai Dr baldev Sinhg, Bhai Dr Jasbir singh mann, sites like Sikh marg, SPN, Media like Rozana Spokseman, Kathawachaks, writers like Gurbaksh singh Kala Afghana Bhai Bhag Singh Ambala..etc etc...the enemy was winning this battle !!..BUT NOW he is on the RUN..and we have to keep at it until and when the enemy stops running or falls down dead ( which is not likely any time soon)

With respect
Jarnail Singh
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Gurmit Singh ji

There are 2 places where I am in complete agreement. These books in the secondary literature do confuse many people. One needs a lot of background to put them in proper perspective. Therefore, as you say, how does one find time to read SGGS and this literature also.

We do however need to have these discussions. If a member raises a question, one has to assume it was asked in good faith unless there are reasons to believe it was asked in bad faith. Forums are the places where others with the depth of background can then teach the rest of us. And forgive me, but I must add this point. All of the secondary literature you listed above is being used flagrantly to undermine SGGS. If SPN does not open its doors and embrace their discussion, then there will be no one left on the Internet to explain how we are being misled. Here is where I think more information is a good thing. Then when someone is called up short -- told he/she is a nefarious Guru hater, with a polluted mind, and who is also an imbecile because he/she knows nothing of Suraj Parkash or Karni Nana, etc. etc., -- that person will have enough knowledge to speak up.

Again forgive me if I seem argumentative.
 

jasi

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Apr 28, 2005
304
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SS AKAL JI.

Your real expression and facts are very well written as a essence of Sikhism to lead a normal healthy life as per Guru Ji.

1. Naam Japna.
2. Kirat Karni
3. Vand kei Chakna


Continue guidance can be obtained from our present GSSS as our GURU....

What more can be expressed...............................................................

Jaspi
 

barfi

SPNer
Sep 9, 2008
3
8
london ch
further research shows that Pir Buddhu Shah started off as a muslim, then he became spiritually inclined by the time he Met Guru Gobind Singh ji and then had taken Naam. Pir Buddhu Shahs brother Sayid was a commander in the Moghul army who tried to kill Guru Ji. Both met, at one glance he fell at Guru Jis feet and received Naam and was instructed to keep doing naam simran. has to be with love.


The famous Kaulsar tank at Darbar Sahib is named after a muslim bibi who had made her inclinations toards sikhi clear to her father, who 1st threatened to kill her, then took her to Sufi Sain Mian Mirs order. She later became a sikh of the Guru.

Guru Sahib never forced anybody to become a sikh but facts show that muslims have become sikhs in the past too.. On the karni nama i would say whatever is debateable first agree with something that all agree on that Guru Granth sahib is our Supreme Guru. If you jap naam read banis Guru Sahib is blessing u by u following his instruction. There is no dal mal confusion that anybody can do that will change the spirituality that u r equipped to attain. I have muslim friends i do not dream of karni nama when i meet them, we wish everyone well in life.
 

Harinaam

SPNer
May 8, 2009
4
5
Dear Readers,

Reading philosophies does not solve problems faith does. Guru Nanak Dev ji's salogan "Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Musalman" Be good human first, Kirt Karo Wand Chhakko Naam Japo" Buck stops there and rest are all extensions for those who did not get the message loud and clear. American Constitution does not define Religion or Christianity. It does fit in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Message Edict or Order. People's faith in Christianity make it religion. But Some hand ful Sikhs in India empowering Govt of India to enact or Supreme Court to define and Judge them as Sikhs, I would call it the most stupid move and insult to the Followers of Guru Nanak.

If Sikhs miss their Raj they lost the plot in 1895 and 1947. The Sikh Raj's Seat of Power is now in Pakistan. Majority Sikhs are living in India and other countries.

Those who are carrying on the Raj philosophy will only propagate confusion and misguidance to youth. Go back to the UNO become major Khalsa force for Service of the humanity Khalsa is for humanity not for Raj or self enhancement. Khalsa should be Harman Piyara and Niyara without borders or division. Khalsa is for anyone who is in pain who is being persecuted, who is being tortured. Khalsa is above religion - he is the model being not an idol for geographical boundaries.

Be a Khalsa the pure human with humanity love and sacrifice at heart and in practice, be a saint soldier for that no Raj is required service is required sacrifice is required. Standing up to Khalsa Virtues no matter what but not under the garb of Khalsa creating political dividing statements full of hatred and selfish motives.

Khalsa is the WORLD CITIZEN. Become Khalsa the leader of world humanity the King who provide shelter and security without kingdom with geographical borders but love.

I am pained when people use old writings to misguide today masses and spread ill words and instigate some Sikhs to go on wrong path. They are enemies of Khalsa and Sikhs.


Every Sikh who follows Guru Nanak has ultimate goal and desire to be Khalsa.

Mind you in order to hold the Khalsa "Nyara" do not misinterpret or misguide. "Sis Dena Sikho Lena Nahi"


If need be give your sacrifice do not seek others sacrifice for your goals.

Khalsa is UNO Army established by the Tenth Nanak for protection of weak and challenging the corrupt and torturous regimes.

May Waheguru Give Sumat.

Harinaam
 

jasi

SPNer
Apr 28, 2005
304
277
83
canada
SS AKAL HARNAM JI.
Every word is very much we written and hope it will reach to some motivated people call them selves KHALSA to divid India for which our gurus gave there sacrifices to save the HIND.
Especially when India is enjoying the democracy based government elected by the people. But unfortunately 85% people has no awareness of the power of vote.They can sell their votes for bottle of whiskey or personal gain and ready to give their life to the same leader a elected but passed a law against same people inconvenience.
We are in Canada and if the elected government did not perform their promises during their mandate they will not be elected again.

Here in India Religion is far most issue to consider during elections and elections are fought most of time on religious plate form.

The results are the same then again poor people suffers. Some religion fanatics bring up a slogan to have their own country yet failed to rule their own province . When the voting seasons com ,they can not organize them selves(Sikhs)by electing majority government. Their own people are sub-divide by religion wise political vise , cast system wise, and are not even close to Guru Nanak Dev Ji 's philosophy MANAS KI JAT SABH EK PEHCHANO what they will do if they ever made their own country.

If during all those days of turmoil when all India was under slaver under british or more than 1200 years or more under Moguls.

SELF MADE MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH BY UNITING 13 MISSLES Established his own kingdom for short period of time does not mean it was Sikhs Empire . It rule in little part of Giant India since centuries.

People are still misguided on old martyrs sacrifices give to stop tyranny by the invading Mogals empire when existences of Sikh and Hindus was on verge of being eliminated.

Today we are free and live in democratic societies.RELAX man . You can topple the government after another 5 years mandate if you guy can put your acts together than manipulating wonder full lives to disturbs Punjab.They did it to most power full women in politics Indra Gandhi but sh again regain her seat by making fools by using Davide and rule policies.

We have to grow up than blaming others like a loosers.


Guru Gobindh Singh Ji established the facts that to take a sword and fight was not HIS style BUT when all the modes of addressing the evil is exhausted ,to take sword is pious cause.


Here is no one understand to have your demands accepted from elected government has to followed by democratic ways by l keeping law and orders in the society. Not making a false slogan as if your fighting again Mogal Empier.

The government in existences can be changed by organizing your own communities if majority of the people have the same grievances like bunches of v g few f groups. It is not impossible to topple the government with votes.

Then whey one has to give a sacrifice for their lives life in a Democratic societies.

They can not agree them selves on their grass roots level of political fights.Divided on religious and cast bases . Ego rules.


All our mistakes are self inflicted mistakes but no one ever think create a complete awareness among 85% people lives the villages where illiteracy is still the highest compare to rural areas.

Harnam Ji your comments are worth a lot if they touches who are garbed in a fanatic and ready change y their thinking's and follow Sikhism as pr Gurus teachings. . This has gone this far the even Guru Dwars (place of prayers) are Davide on cast base.


Imagin !.

Wonder why we keep on sub dividing our selves. Some rejected Sikhs from communities simply make their own Guru Dwara instead of creating thier own countries when they faced with complete dissemination's by their own Sikh brother who boast by saying slogan like MANAS KI JAT.................. . I bet ,if they have a choices they will not hesitate to do create their own countries.

Evolution brought to us and no one inmost of families like to stay together because our grass roots believers in Sikh faith are not practicing the same principals as per our GURUS teachings..


There is no Bhai Chara or desires to stay together as Guru Gobindh Singh (10th NANAK) laid the last stone to unit us together entirely as a one human race.

My great respect to all who has initiated Sikh philosophy forum to bring JAGRETI among our Sikh brothers and sisters.

and HIGH points for Babu man who dare to point to growing BABAS think twice what they are doing.

Jaspi


Dear Readers,

Reading philosophies does not solve problems faith does. Guru Nanak Dev ji's salogan "Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Musalman" Be good human first, Kirt Karo Wand Chhakko Naam Japo" Buck stops there and rest are all extensions for those who did not get the message loud and clear. American Constitution does not define Religion or Christianity. It does fit in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Message Edict or Order. People's faith in Christianity make it religion. But Some hand ful Sikhs in India empowering Govt of India to enact or Supreme Court to define and Judge them as Sikhs, I would call it the most stupid move and insult to the Followers of Guru Nanak.

If Sikhs miss their Raj they lost the plot in 1895 and 1947. The Sikh Raj's Seat of Power is now in Pakistan. Majority Sikhs are living in India and other countries.

Those who are carrying on the Raj philosophy will only propagate confusion and misguidance to youth. Go back to the UNO become major Khalsa force for Service of the humanity Khalsa is for humanity not for Raj or self enhancement. Khalsa should be Harman Piyara and Niyara without borders or division. Khalsa is for anyone who is in pain who is being persecuted, who is being tortured. Khalsa is above religion - he is the model being not an idol for geographical boundaries.

Be a Khalsa the pure human with humanity love and sacrifice at heart and in practice, be a saint soldier for that no Raj is required service is required sacrifice is required. Standing up to Khalsa Virtues no matter what but not under the garb of Khalsa creating political dividing statements full of hatred and selfish motives.

Khalsa is the WORLD CITIZEN. Become Khalsa the leader of world humanity the King who provide shelter and security without kingdom with geographical borders but love.

I am pained when people use old writings to misguide today masses and spread ill words and instigate some Sikhs to go on wrong path. They are enemies of Khalsa and Sikhs.


Every Sikh who follows Guru Nanak has ultimate goal and desire to be Khalsa.

Mind you in order to hold the Khalsa "Nyara" do not misinterpret or misguide. "Sis Dena Sikho Lena Nahi"


If need be give your sacrifice do not seek others sacrifice for your goals.

Khalsa is UNO Army established by the Tenth Nanak for protection of weak and challenging the corrupt and torturous regimes.

May Waheguru Give Sumat.

Harinaam
 

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