General - Kachi Bani | Sikh Philosophy Network
  • Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

General Kachi Bani

Currently reading:
General Kachi Bani

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,748
Vancouver
We have all heard this term being used quite often usually associated with criticising of certain granthi's and raagi's and even some sant babas.

As I have been getting much deeper into the gurbani, I notice how it gets manipulated and misinterpreted very easily in many areas.
I have also noticed how certain kathas will sometimes portray an alternative and more or less wrong message, than that originally intended.

Maybe I am analyzing it more than I used to or I am some what more aware.

Before, I felt that kachi bani was when someone in the process of reading/reciting, proceeds in a non-respectful manner.

Now, I am wondering if false interpretations also constitute to such an offence (we could regard it as an offence) as kachi bani ??

Some thoughts and clarification would be much appreciated.


Waheguru
Lucky Singh
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,380
5,677
We have all heard this term being used quite often usually associated with criticising of certain granthi's and raagi's and even some sant babas.

As I have been getting much deeper into the gurbani, I notice how it gets manipulated and misinterpreted very easily in many areas.
I have also noticed how certain kathas will sometimes portray an alternative and more or less wrong message, than that originally intended.

Potently more destructible consequences as such would be camaflouged by the persona of the speaker. There are very many examples of very famous and respected by masses people doing so to Sikhism. The Dehras are at the forefront of this. They get Sangat swaying with front end gurbani and then take them where gurbani that started the Katha has no relation. Very very sad.

Equivalent to "White Collar Crime" in legal terms.

Maybe I am analyzing it more than I used to or I am some what more aware.

Before, I felt that kachi bani was when someone in the process of reading/reciting, proceeds in a non-respectful manner.

Now, I am wondering if false interpretations also constitute to such an offence (we could regard it as an offence) as kachi bani ??

Some thoughts and clarification would be much appreciated.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh
You are part of a small community as most others close their eyes and let it sink in both good or bad.

Great thread.

Let us site some video examples with commentary where the message gets messed up.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,748
Vancouver
Ang 920

aavahu sikh sathiguroo kae piaariho gaavahu sachee baanee ||
Come, O beloved Sikhs of the True Guru, and sing the True Word of His Bani.

baanee th gaavahu guroo kaeree baaneeaa sir baanee ||
Sing the Guru's Bani, the supreme Word of Words.

jin ko nadhar karam hovai hiradhai thinaa samaanee ||
Those who are blessed by the Lord's Glance of Grace - their hearts are imbued with this Bani.

peevahu a(n)mrith sadhaa rehahu har ra(n)g japihu saarigapaanee ||
Drink in this Ambrosial Nectar, and remain in the Lord's Love forever; meditate on the Lord, the Sustainer of the world.

kehai naanak sadhaa gaavahu eaeh sachee baanee ||23||
Says Nanak, sing this True Bani forever. ||23||

sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee ||
Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

baanee th kachee sathiguroo baajhahu hor kachee baanee ||
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

kehadhae kachae sunadhae kachae kacha(n)aee aakh vakhaanee ||
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.

also;

saachai sunanai no pat(h)aaeae sareer laaeae sunahu sath baanee ||
To hear the Truth, you were created and attached to the body; listen to the True Bani.

As above,
Those who speak it are false,those that hear it are false,Those that speak and recite are false.
kehadhae kachae sunadhae kachae kacha(n)aee aakh vakhaanee

This implies that those listening are false also.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,662
14,275
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
In the historical context...by the time of Guru Amardass Ji..it had become widely "known" that the Gurgadee of the House of nanak was being "recognised" as LEGITIMATE ONLY due to the presence of GURBANI being passed on to the successor. Genetics, lineage, ancestry , caste etc were NOT being considered as valid. The Tilak the outward signs of the next GURU was the fact that He was given the GURBANI of the PREVIOUS GURU.
And as a result those not given this Authentic Gurbani hit upon the idea that why not we too write such "Bani" since thats the one thing we lack as we are already Guru descendnats/lineage etc and known to the sangats as Guru shaibzadehs..and this FALSE BANI is the KACHI BANI that Guru Amardass Ji mentions. The undeniable transparently clear fact is that ONLY a TRUE SATGUR is capable of writing GURBANI.....nay "bani" (POETRY) that lacks this basic ingredient is FAKE/FALSE/KACHI as opposed to Authentic Pakkee Gurbani.

Later on the Coming descendnats of the Guru sahibs people like MEHRBAN...elder brother of Guur Arjun ji who had acquired the very best KATHA SKILLS of Gurbani Exposition of the Gurbani of His father Guru Ramdass Ji....also acquired the skills necessray to write almost authentic Bani but it was neverthless KACHI as He was NOT the True SATGURU. After that his descendats the Hundalis had even better composers who also added the additional Mohr/Chhaap or stamp like MAHALLA CHHEVAN, MAHALLA SATVAAN to their Fake Kachi banis. ( THis may eb one reason why the authentic GURUS sitting on the Gurgadee as Sixth and Seventh Gurus - Hargobind ji and Har Rai Ji never wrote ant Gurbani thus dispensing with the Mahalla chhevan/stvaan controversy which would have made it very difficult for the sangats to differentiate the wheat form the chaff..

Coming to the time of GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. Guru Gobind ingh Ji alos made the DISTINCTION between what is GURBANI and whats NOT by clearly Passing on GURGADEE ONLY to SGGS. Since the TRUE SATGUR is SGGS...it logiclalay follows that the ONLY GURBANI is whats inside the SGGS. PERIOD. AS sitting Tenth nanak on the Gurgadee of Nnak..ant compositions by GUur Gobind Singh ji could ahve been made GURBANI by being ADDED to SGGS by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI HIMSELF as He was the one and ONLY perosn authorized to do so. Earlier GURU ARJUN JI had ADDED huge amounts of HIS OWN GURBANI written under Mahalla panjavaan to the AAD GRANTH (SGGS). Guur Arjun Ji placed the MOHR/STAMP/SEAL of Mahalla Panjavaan at the END of AD GRANTH..and this SEAL was MAINTAINED by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in the same place - END of SGGS..after He ahd added the GURBANI of Guru teg bahadur Ji at the appropriate places and Raags in SGGS. Thus there is no reason for any HUMAN to second GUESS GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji for the reasons for not adding any of his own compositions into SGGs and why etc ?? The ONLY GURBANI is thus now in the SGGS. All compositions OUTSIDE the SGGS are NOT GURBANI as that in SGGS...no matter who the AUTHOR is...may it be Kabir Ji, Ravidass Ji, or Guru Gobind Singh ji..
Now to the MODERN ERA....Now a days what is referrd to as KACHI BANI are the TWO LINER JINGLE STYLES of Totkeh that MOST BABA TYPES love to sing and make the snagat sing along to the tune of CHAMTAS. A few decades ago this style was used to read JOTTIAN WALLEH SHABAD..and the entire Sangat used to participate....the Lead Granthi leading..then the Men snag a line or two and then the Ladies would pick up the REFRAIN....The SHABADS snag were GURBANI taken form SGGS and NOT man made Kavitas or poems.
What the Babas derawallahs etc do is RECITE TWO LINERS....Kandhah ret deean..bandiah..naam jap laey.....kandhan ret deean...Satnaam waheguru..Bandhiah naam jap leay..etc etc REPEATED agian and agin and the snagat is asked to repeat while the Baba takes a breather...This is KACHI BANI becasue its NOT GURBANI form SGGS..its NOT Bhai Gurdass Ji Vaars kabits or Bhai nanad Laal Goyahs kabits. THOSE are the ONLY compositions recognised by SRM to be sung as KIRTAN. However any Kavita, dhadee Vaar etc can be READ/SUNG as LONG as it doesnt give the impression of KIRTAN...which is soleley RESERVED for GURBANI ONLY. DHADEES STAND UP nad sing their Vaars...perfectly all right and no one calls this KIRTAN. POETS also stand up on stage in the presenc eof SGGS evena dn READ out POETRY/Kavitas/GEETS etc...again perfectly all right as its NOT KIRTAN. What people OBJECT to si the DUPLICITY practised by the baba derawallah types..who sit on STAGE, and read kavitas and geets KIRTAN STYLE.

There is nothing wrong per se with the Sarsan kee mala sung by late jagadharee wallah Baba sewak Ragi....as long as its not taken for KIRTAN. I Love the sarssan kee mala geet...but i dont recite it as GURBANI. MY Late dad wrote thousands of such Kavitas and our family Jatha used to sing them at weddings shaheedee jordmelas, gurpurabs etc etc with the sangat participating with gusto...in fact my dad was much sought after for wedding sehras and kavitas becasue he had the knack of putting as much as hundred names in one kavita perfectly in tune and balance..making every member of the family happy....and celebrated in a wedding ~!! and its all KACHI...

Since the SGGS is NOT in PROSE..any KATHA is always INDIVIDUALS way of understanding...so this cannot be called Kachi as in kachi bani (masquaradinga s Gurbani)
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,662
14,275
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,577
1,607
How about 'Swaasan Di Maala Naal Simraa Main Pree Da Naam' ??
Although it may seem that this famous geet conveys a good intended message, it can be misleading because the Pree or Pi might not be the Almighty God, instead a viakti like a Baba or Pir who has died or will die.

Our Guru is Bani, Atul and Permanent - Na Aavai na Jaavai.
Most Geets sung today are mere shadows of the truth. Sachi Bani leads you to the truth not away from it.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,662
14,275
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
IF you listen carefully to that Baba crying his heart out at the death of hsi "Waddeh baba Ji"..you will NOTICE hes DOING the EXACT OPPOSITE of what GURU AMARDASS JI advises His SIKHS to do after His DEATH.....read the Ramklai sadd that comes JUST BEFORE the ANAND SAHIB in SGGS to KNOW hwat a SIKH should do at time of DEATH..and then comapre to what this idiot is doing...Guru Amardass Jia dvises us to..DONT CRY at my death..do the NIRBANN KIRTAN of GURBANI...Guur Ji says that the DEAD BODY is a worthless piece of goods..can be buried, eaten by dogs or wild animals..burnt, disposed off in water whatever..its OF NO VALUE..we may offer a little RESPECT for the Dead..But look at whats happening..tins and tins of shudh GHEE, Chandan wood etc etc etc is being WASTED..when millions are going HUNGRY...a criminal waste of resources and INSULT to the GURU....i dont understand what NANAK NAAM the CRYING BABA is screaming about...its all about the dead baba lying in a glass coffin...
THIS is the ROOT of the cancerous Growth thats killing Sikhism today...dig a bit deep under nay "Sikh" loking DERA..and its roots go back to NANAKSAR...its a baba factory.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,662
14,275
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
isnt the Chacha as in Chacha..simple enough...the ORIGINAL Shabad from SGGS was attached and the word is clearly KACHI...then why add "legs to a snake" and pretend its ok...the letter is Chacha...FIRST letter of the THIRD LINE of the paintee.

And SINGHS always use the word KACHHA or Kachhera...never kachhee..because ??? Singhs and KAURS too never go for that...too little cloth..ha ha and it gets LOST easily even when worn..(and when put to dry..ha ha )..Kachhera and Kachha are Masculine too.....the "brief..the kachhee..the g-string...NOT for Macho Singhs/Kaurs.ha ha ha hope the Punjabi ha s :happymunda:improved...
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,662
14,275
70
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Ambarsaria ji,
I believe it is Kachhi - ਕੱਛੀ
Not with a ਸ਼ (sh) but with a ਛ (chh).
Bhagat Ji..where di you get the EXTRA "H" ??? from

Shabd: sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee ||

Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

baanee th kachee sathiguroo baajhahu hor kachee baanee ||
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

kehadhae kachae sunadhae kachae kacha(n)aee aakh vakhaanee ||
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.
lol
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
995
1,091
In the Self
sp ji you cannot hide behind your "ਤੋਤਲੀ ਜਬਾਨ "। "Cute Punjabi".
'
Veer Jio It was a play on words,in honesty I believe it means 'uncooked' or raw words.Another play on words;When do cannibals leave the table ? When everyone's eaten.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,380
5,677
'
Veer Jio It was a play on words,in honesty I believe it means 'uncooked' or raw words.Another play on words;When do cannibals leave the table ? When everyone's eaten.
Can I add some thoughts to your cannibal stuff? Here it goes regardless,

When do cannibals leave the table ?

  • When no food left and the last bit has been eaten
  • When no one else is around
  • When they start biting self
Brother sp ji I was not totally serious but I do play with British Punjabi kids with funny Punjabi accents "ਤੋਤਲੀ ਜਬਾਨ "। "Cute Punjabi" (in a happy and loving way).

Example: Subject is, "Dad where are you going?"

1. "ਤੋਤਲੀ ਜਬਾਨ "। "Cute Punjabi"

  • Papa thee tootheen kithey challey hon japposatnamwaheguru:
2. My Punjabi

  • Bapu toooon kithey chalian japposatnamwaheguru:

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug
 
Last edited:

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,748
Vancouver
Sat sri akaal

With regards to kachi bani. I personally feel it's a grey area where everone has different views.
My confusion, I'll explain.....
I am no musician but I very much enjoy all sorts of music.
I really enjoy kirtan a great deal. Infact, when I normally just read a shabad or hear it, the 1st thing I do is try to relate it to some shabad kirtan I may know.

Now, I have also recorded my own kirtan, for my personal use only. These are gurbani shabads that I have taken from kirtan books and used my own melodies to get a composition. Most say they are good. But, I only have these for myself and immediate family, I don't intend to distribute them or otherwise, Im no musician or raagi and like I say they are just for personal use.

My concern is that I've been told that this is kachi bani because I have swayed away from the traditional raags with my own tunes and melodies. -Fair enough-

Now, I totally understand that Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal Jis shabads are to be done in raags along with hyms from Guru Gobind and Guru Granth Sahib ji. Thus the true emotion and feeling is experienced in the raags, no doubt. I also have come to believe in presence of Guru Granth Sahib (in gurdwara) they should be sang in raag.

But, I was asked by the gurdwara to perform or let young students perform my versions. I refused on the grounds that it's kachi, as that's what I was told by a few. I know that kachi should NOT be done in presence of the Guru Granth Sahib.--This is what i've come to believe--
However, granthis, raagis and others all give me different answers, some say it's fine, others say not!
Although, quite often I've heard raagis get slated because they are using bollywood tunes or other melodies. I noticed this a great deal more back in UK gurdwaras than here in Canada.

Please note, I'm not trying to endorse or seek permission here. I just want some light on what exactly constitutes to kachi bani. Does using other melodies, like plenty of raagi do, constitute to kachi. If so, then it shouldn't be done in Guru's presence, I feel.

The contents of SRM in relation to this are below
a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.
b) Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures.
c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.
d) It is improper, while singing hymns to rhythmic folk tunes or to traditional musical measures, or in team singing, to induct into them improvised and extraneous refrains. Only a line from the hymn should be made a refrain.


In d it mentions the 'refrain' which in musical terms refers to chorus or paused repeating at intervals. So, I think the concern here is mostly with the refrain being more than one line. Which still doesn't give me a positive answer.
Or is it just the fact that certain raagis would be accustomed to kirtan in specific raags and when they hear a different version -they critisize-?

My other question is- what is the difference with the thaddis (perform standing) and kirtan performed seated? Can the thaddis do kachi ??
I'm sorry its a silly question, but I will probaly get better answers here. Or is it that, may be I'm too embarassed to ask someone in person!!


Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh
 
Last edited:

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

SPN on Facebook

...
Top