Janam Sakhi Are True Events
S|kH
SPNer
haha,
so once again this debate will start. I hope I dont get banned.
Janam Sakhris are NOT true events, they are scientifically impossible. They were created and designed for the sole purpose to incite courage and other features which the average person could assosciate with.
I ask you this, if you regard Janam Sakhris as true, then do you regard other stories which various religions state as true also?
so once again this debate will start. I hope I dont get banned.
Janam Sakhris are NOT true events, they are scientifically impossible. They were created and designed for the sole purpose to incite courage and other features which the average person could assosciate with.
I ask you this, if you regard Janam Sakhris as true, then do you regard other stories which various religions state as true also?
- Jun 1, 2004
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Dear S|kh,
Rest assured on above aspect... this forum is for people who like to think aloud with logical reasoning and with good examples to support their arguements. I see no reason for knowledgiable persons like you getting banned from any forums... certainly not in this forum...
Banning is a not a threat in this forum and only members will decide the fate of member up for banning, in an open court.
So, think aloud and share your views and as i like to say... enjoy !!!
Best Regards
S|kH
SPNer
ThinkingOne said:
I believe you are correct, sorry for the typo, and thanks for correcting me. I've been typing "Sakhris" for a while and no one bothered to fix me up.
Ok, lets pick a Janam Sakhi to speak of...Baba Deep Singh.
He fought with his head off during battle.
If you believe this to be true, do you also believe the story of Achilles to be true, in which he was almost immortal and only could die if someone stabbed his heel?
You see my point...if you believe the "Sikh-stories", then why don't you believe the others? Or are they not capable of performing such deeds because they were not "Sikhs" ?
I am not saying Baba Deep Singh was never alive, he probably was. And he was probably an extraordinary fighter, and would have won the medal of honor in todays wars. So, when the author of the book wrote down his story, he wanted to amplify Baba Deep Singhs courage, bravery, and skill. It came out perfect, why not say that this man fought without his head, how much bravery does that show, and skill with the sword.
You see? Achilles may as well have existed like that same point.
S|kh actually the 'story' or Baba Deep Singh ji, has actually been noted down by Muslim historians - as we need to remember tha most of the SIkh history wasn't even written down by Sikhs, but mostly by Muslims and hindus!
why would muslims want to give credit to a brave Sikh warrior?
Regards
why would muslims want to give credit to a brave Sikh warrior?
Regards
S|kH
SPNer
Theres plenty of reasons..
money from selling the book, or perhaps and unbiased opinion of an extraordinary fighter.
You know, theres American books about the "Red Baron" from WWII, and how much of an extraordinary fighter Red Baron. They highlight Red Baron as one of the greatest pilots ever.
Not every muslim or hindu has to hate Sikhs...remember.
-S|kH
P.S. are you the say Mr.Singh as the other forums...Amardeep on the hub? ;-)
money from selling the book, or perhaps and unbiased opinion of an extraordinary fighter.
You know, theres American books about the "Red Baron" from WWII, and how much of an extraordinary fighter Red Baron. They highlight Red Baron as one of the greatest pilots ever.
Not every muslim or hindu has to hate Sikhs...remember.
-S|kH
P.S. are you the say Mr.Singh as the other forums...Amardeep on the hub? ;-)
S|kH ji,
I see where u coming from.
okay, first of all, let us say 'sikh sakhis' or 'sikh stories' only. 'Janam Sakhi' has a different meaning.
Is this the only sikh story, or there are loads of them, u want to talk about. If yes, just hint on most of those. I am just trying to get the idea of direction of this thread, which it may get into.
Thanks.
I see where u coming from.
okay, first of all, let us say 'sikh sakhis' or 'sikh stories' only. 'Janam Sakhi' has a different meaning.
Is this the only sikh story, or there are loads of them, u want to talk about. If yes, just hint on most of those. I am just trying to get the idea of direction of this thread, which it may get into.
Thanks.
S|kH
SPNer
Guru Nanak holding the huge rock boulder with one hand.
Not a true story.
Theres others, which I am sure you are aware of...recall some controvesial ones, and we can debate them.
Not a true story.
Theres others, which I am sure you are aware of...recall some controvesial ones, and we can debate them.
Correction needed.
Yes, Similar question was raised by me in another post, which was also questioning the Sakhi. I am pasting that as-it-is, for further discussion:
Yes, Similar question was raised by me in another post, which was also questioning the Sakhi. I am pasting that as-it-is, for further discussion:
Gurdwara Bhatha Sahib
Does anyone know the sakhi about the above?
Tejwant
Does anyone know the sakhi about the above?
Tejwant
Ref: http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gd-bhatha.htm
This Gurudwara commemorates the visit of tenth Guru Sri Gobind Singh. There is a fascinating story about this place. Here by the touch of the hoof of Guru's horse the red hot brick kiln (Bhatha) instantaneously cooled down. The then local Pathan Chief, Nihang Khan a sincere devotee of the Guru at a great personal risk, looked after the Guru and his followers. The gurudwara is on the main highway from Chandigarh to Kulu and Kangra valleys. Nearest airport Chandigarh is only 40 km away. It is only at a distance of 5 km from Ropar on the left bank of the river Sutlej, where remains of an old Harappan city of ancient civilization were discovered by Archaeological Department of Government of India. The tourist bungalow on the left bank of the river Sutlej, is frequented by large number of tourists on their way to Bhakra Nangal, Kulu Valley, and Anandpur Sahib.
Gurdwara Bhatta Sahib is a historical Gurdwara where Guru Gobind Singh came four times. Guru ji came here for the first time in 1745 B.K. He was returning to Anandpur after winning the battle of Bhangani. It is said that when Guruji asked for a place to stay, the labourers working at the Bhatta - Kiln pointed towards the burning `Kiln'. Ignorent labourers did not realised whom they were talking too. As soon as the horse of Guru stepped on the burning kiln it became cold. Chaudhary Nihang Khan the owner of the Bhatta who was in his Qila was informed about this event. He rushed to Bhatta and to his astonishment saw Guru Gobind singh Ji sitting on the Bhatta. Chaudhary bowed his head in front of the Guru and asked for pardon. He took Guruji to his fort and gave necessary amenities to his army. For the second time Guru Gobind Singh Ji came to the engagement of Alam Khan the son of Nihang Khan in 1752 BK. For the third time in 1759 after returning from Kurukshetra, Guruji came to Bhatta Sahib. For the fourth time, the Guru Ji came to Bhatta after leaving Anandpur Sahib forever in 1761 B.K. Prakash Diwas of 1st, 5th and 10th Patshahi, Sangrand with Amrit Sanchar, Jor Mela from 1st Poh to 4th Poh and Anniversary of Baba Jiwan Singh Ji on 11th are organised here.
Location: Gurdwara Bhatta Sahib is situated in village Kotla Nihang on Ropar Chandigarh Road. It is 3 km. from the Ropar Railway Station and 40 km. from Anandpur Sahib.
This Gurudwara commemorates the visit of tenth Guru Sri Gobind Singh. There is a fascinating story about this place. Here by the touch of the hoof of Guru's horse the red hot brick kiln (Bhatha) instantaneously cooled down. The then local Pathan Chief, Nihang Khan a sincere devotee of the Guru at a great personal risk, looked after the Guru and his followers. The gurudwara is on the main highway from Chandigarh to Kulu and Kangra valleys. Nearest airport Chandigarh is only 40 km away. It is only at a distance of 5 km from Ropar on the left bank of the river Sutlej, where remains of an old Harappan city of ancient civilization were discovered by Archaeological Department of Government of India. The tourist bungalow on the left bank of the river Sutlej, is frequented by large number of tourists on their way to Bhakra Nangal, Kulu Valley, and Anandpur Sahib.
Gurdwara Bhatta Sahib is a historical Gurdwara where Guru Gobind Singh came four times. Guru ji came here for the first time in 1745 B.K. He was returning to Anandpur after winning the battle of Bhangani. It is said that when Guruji asked for a place to stay, the labourers working at the Bhatta - Kiln pointed towards the burning `Kiln'. Ignorent labourers did not realised whom they were talking too. As soon as the horse of Guru stepped on the burning kiln it became cold. Chaudhary Nihang Khan the owner of the Bhatta who was in his Qila was informed about this event. He rushed to Bhatta and to his astonishment saw Guru Gobind singh Ji sitting on the Bhatta. Chaudhary bowed his head in front of the Guru and asked for pardon. He took Guruji to his fort and gave necessary amenities to his army. For the second time Guru Gobind Singh Ji came to the engagement of Alam Khan the son of Nihang Khan in 1752 BK. For the third time in 1759 after returning from Kurukshetra, Guruji came to Bhatta Sahib. For the fourth time, the Guru Ji came to Bhatta after leaving Anandpur Sahib forever in 1761 B.K. Prakash Diwas of 1st, 5th and 10th Patshahi, Sangrand with Amrit Sanchar, Jor Mela from 1st Poh to 4th Poh and Anniversary of Baba Jiwan Singh Ji on 11th are organised here.
Location: Gurdwara Bhatta Sahib is situated in village Kotla Nihang on Ropar Chandigarh Road. It is 3 km. from the Ropar Railway Station and 40 km. from Anandpur Sahib.
Thankyou ThinkingOne/Sevadaar ji for responding to my query so quickly. This could be an interesting starting point for us to immerse in Gurmat via JanamSakhis of our Gurus.
I would like to have opinion of the Sadh Sangat on the above Sakhi.
1. Those who believe in the above Sakhi to be true, give reasons why you think it is true. Please express your viewpoint based on Gurmat.
2. Those who think it is not true, also give Gurmat reason on why not.
Input from all is urged.
Tejwant
I would like to have opinion of the Sadh Sangat on the above Sakhi.
1. Those who believe in the above Sakhi to be true, give reasons why you think it is true. Please express your viewpoint based on Gurmat.
2. Those who think it is not true, also give Gurmat reason on why not.
Input from all is urged.
Tejwant
S|kH
SPNer
The horse of Guru Gobind could change things from hot to cold,
but Guru Arjan could not change the pot he was burning in to a moderate temperature?
Or perhaps that story has only a very little truth...like the actual event could have been a small fire, and then Guru Gobind wrapped a towel around the horses feet, and the horse stomped the fire out...so everyone else thought it walked through, and now that area had become cold...everyone had thought the horse made it turn to cold miracously.
Perhaps Guru Gobind was just the first smart person to try to put out this fire using that method, so the viewers hailed it as a miracle.
And I'm not even going to speak about how the story doesnt make scientific sense.
but Guru Arjan could not change the pot he was burning in to a moderate temperature?
Or perhaps that story has only a very little truth...like the actual event could have been a small fire, and then Guru Gobind wrapped a towel around the horses feet, and the horse stomped the fire out...so everyone else thought it walked through, and now that area had become cold...everyone had thought the horse made it turn to cold miracously.
Perhaps Guru Gobind was just the first smart person to try to put out this fire using that method, so the viewers hailed it as a miracle.
And I'm not even going to speak about how the story doesnt make scientific sense.
- Jun 1, 2004
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Dear S|KH Ji,
Now, let us take, for example, his much debated visit to Mecca. It is reported that during his sojourn in Mecca, one day he stretched his feet towards the "Ka'bah", the House of God. On the objection of some Muslims that the feet must not be directed to the House of God, Guru Nanak is reported to have said that his feet might be turned in any direction they desired. The keepers of the House turned his feet in the opposite direction but, lo! the House also turned around and followed the feet of the Guru. Muslim and many non-Sikh scholars reject this and other similar stories, obviously for different reasons.
However, there is no reason for anyone to be disturbed if this or other stories fail to satisfy the requirements necessary for scientific and objective study. In fact, such stories, whosoever its main character may be, should not necessarily be taken literally. They are basically meant for teaching people certain realities of life. For example, the above mentioned travelogue of Guru Nanak seems to have been narrated to hammer into people's head the idea of the omnipresence of God.
Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Ji
Now, let us take, for example, his much debated visit to Mecca. It is reported that during his sojourn in Mecca, one day he stretched his feet towards the "Ka'bah", the House of God. On the objection of some Muslims that the feet must not be directed to the House of God, Guru Nanak is reported to have said that his feet might be turned in any direction they desired. The keepers of the House turned his feet in the opposite direction but, lo! the House also turned around and followed the feet of the Guru. Muslim and many non-Sikh scholars reject this and other similar stories, obviously for different reasons.
However, there is no reason for anyone to be disturbed if this or other stories fail to satisfy the requirements necessary for scientific and objective study. In fact, such stories, whosoever its main character may be, should not necessarily be taken literally. They are basically meant for teaching people certain realities of life. For example, the above mentioned travelogue of Guru Nanak seems to have been narrated to hammer into people's head the idea of the omnipresence of God.
Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Ji
tuaprasaad
SPNer
Right, so what most people here are saying is don't take the sakhi's quite so literally?
Guru Arjan Dev Jee went through the torture that They went through because They believed in submitting to Waheguru's bhana. Just because the story sounds abit too wild to be true, doesn't mean its not true.
Guru Arjan was made to sit on the red hot iron pan and burning sand was poured over his bare body. He was seated in red-hot caldron, and was bathed in boiling water. Guru's body was burning and was full of blisters.
His friend and devotee, Mian Mir, a Muslim saint, rushed to see him. When Mian Mir saw the ghastly scene, he cried out and said,"O Master! I cannot bear to see these horrors inflicted on thee. If you permit me, I would demolish this tyrant rule (Mian Mir is said to have possessed supernatural powers at that time)." The Guru smiled and asked Mian Mir to look towards the skies.
The Guru addressed Mian Mir,"Mian Mir, you are perturbed too soon. This is the Will of my Master (God), and I cheerfully submit and surrender to His Sweet Will." The Guru repeated and exemplified in action the meaning of this verse:
"Tera kia meetha lagei
Har Nam padarath Nanak mangei."
(Asa Mohalla 5, p-394)
'Sweet be Thy Will, my Lord
Nanak beseecheth the gift of Nam.'
Guru Ji wasn't your average person like you and me, They were Guru Ji and so were able to do things that we now think are not to be taken so literally.
DHAN DHAN GURU ARJAN DEV JI MAHARAJ
Guru Arjan Dev Jee went through the torture that They went through because They believed in submitting to Waheguru's bhana. Just because the story sounds abit too wild to be true, doesn't mean its not true.
Guru Arjan was made to sit on the red hot iron pan and burning sand was poured over his bare body. He was seated in red-hot caldron, and was bathed in boiling water. Guru's body was burning and was full of blisters.
His friend and devotee, Mian Mir, a Muslim saint, rushed to see him. When Mian Mir saw the ghastly scene, he cried out and said,"O Master! I cannot bear to see these horrors inflicted on thee. If you permit me, I would demolish this tyrant rule (Mian Mir is said to have possessed supernatural powers at that time)." The Guru smiled and asked Mian Mir to look towards the skies.
The Guru addressed Mian Mir,"Mian Mir, you are perturbed too soon. This is the Will of my Master (God), and I cheerfully submit and surrender to His Sweet Will." The Guru repeated and exemplified in action the meaning of this verse:
"Tera kia meetha lagei
Har Nam padarath Nanak mangei."
(Asa Mohalla 5, p-394)
'Sweet be Thy Will, my Lord
Nanak beseecheth the gift of Nam.'
Guru Ji wasn't your average person like you and me, They were Guru Ji and so were able to do things that we now think are not to be taken so literally.
DHAN DHAN GURU ARJAN DEV JI MAHARAJ
etinder
SPNer
re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events
i believe these sakhis to be true i might not be able to prove there truth or credibility at this point of time but i believe that our guru's were capable of so many things which my small tiny brain is not capable of comprehending.
i wud like to quote albert eindtein here he used to say "where physics ends metaphysics starts".
and there is a alternate stream of study called parapsychology is there that studies para normal incidents,events n people.
i believe these sakhis to be true i might not be able to prove there truth or credibility at this point of time but i believe that our guru's were capable of so many things which my small tiny brain is not capable of comprehending.
i wud like to quote albert eindtein here he used to say "where physics ends metaphysics starts".
and there is a alternate stream of study called parapsychology is there that studies para normal incidents,events n people.
re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events
WJKK WJKF
There seems to be some confusion here regarding Janamsakhis and stories from Sikh history. Janamsakhis are stories written about incidents in Guru Nanak's life and there are a number of different Janamsakhis written by various authors.
Sikh
It seems that you are over analysing the Janamsakhis. What the Gurus did such as stop a boulder, sit is complete equipose on a hot plate, etc they could do because they were enlightened beings whose jot were attuned to Waheguru. We can analyse each and every Sakhi and pick holes in at according to your knowledge. Particulary pointless is trying to analyse why one Guru in one situation did something and another Guru did not.
Baba Deep Singh - You say that it is not possible for Baba Deep Singh to carry on fighting even after his head had been severed from his body. The way I look at this event is that anything is possible for Gursikhs or Brahmgianis. We should not try and place limitations on what Brahmgianis can do or cannot do just because we mortals have such limits. The story shows that a Brahmgiani's vow such as Baba Deep Singh had made to die in fighting in the precincts of the Harmandir Sahib always comes to pass.
This incident is so inspiring because of the way the Sikhs gave their lives to protect the sancity of the Harmandir Sahib. Only a few hundred of the Sikhs with Baba Deep Singh were veteran fighters, the rest were just Sikhs from the villages en route to Amritsar. These Sikhs joined Baba Deep Singh knowing that most if not all would never return. They wore the clothes of bridegrooms on their way to their marriage ( death ).
WJKK WJKF
There seems to be some confusion here regarding Janamsakhis and stories from Sikh history. Janamsakhis are stories written about incidents in Guru Nanak's life and there are a number of different Janamsakhis written by various authors.
Sikh
It seems that you are over analysing the Janamsakhis. What the Gurus did such as stop a boulder, sit is complete equipose on a hot plate, etc they could do because they were enlightened beings whose jot were attuned to Waheguru. We can analyse each and every Sakhi and pick holes in at according to your knowledge. Particulary pointless is trying to analyse why one Guru in one situation did something and another Guru did not.
Baba Deep Singh - You say that it is not possible for Baba Deep Singh to carry on fighting even after his head had been severed from his body. The way I look at this event is that anything is possible for Gursikhs or Brahmgianis. We should not try and place limitations on what Brahmgianis can do or cannot do just because we mortals have such limits. The story shows that a Brahmgiani's vow such as Baba Deep Singh had made to die in fighting in the precincts of the Harmandir Sahib always comes to pass.
This incident is so inspiring because of the way the Sikhs gave their lives to protect the sancity of the Harmandir Sahib. Only a few hundred of the Sikhs with Baba Deep Singh were veteran fighters, the rest were just Sikhs from the villages en route to Amritsar. These Sikhs joined Baba Deep Singh knowing that most if not all would never return. They wore the clothes of bridegrooms on their way to their marriage ( death ).
tuaprasaad
SPNer
Re: Correction needed.
In reference to this Sakhi about Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji, Baba Ji carried on fighting after they received the blow to their neck, because they had pledged to reach Harimandir Sahib before breathing their last.
In contrast to Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji Maharaj, They went to Dehli knowing fore well what was to come, if this was not the case why would Guru Sahib have passed on GurGaddi to their son Gobind Rai (later Guru Gobind Singh Ji) before leaving?
When the Kashmiri Brahmins, led by Pundit Kirpa Ram came to Guru Tegh Bahadur at Anandpur in 1675 for protection against atrocities of Aurungzeb. They had faced stiff taxes, atrocities, and cruelty under Muslim Mughal governor of Kashmir. Honour of their daughters was being lost and they were losing their religion to the fanatic zeal and activities of Islamic crusaders. They asked for a solution. Guru Ji replied, "Such activities can only be stopped by a sacrifice of a great person". Just then 8 years old son of Guru Tegh Bahadur, Gobind Rai (Later Gobind Singh) came along and saw his father in deep thoughts. He enquired about the reason. He offered a possible solution by saying "who else is greater then you, O father". Guru Tegh Bahadur knew immediately about his Dharma. He told Kashmiri Brahmins "Go tell Aurungzeb that if they can convert your Guru then you will all become Muslims." Kirpa Ram obliged and Aurungzeb issued summons for Guru. Guru performed the ceremony and declared that next Guru will be his son, Gobind Rai. Therefore Guru Ji knew what was to come.
The difference between the example of Guru Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji in my eyes is that, Guru Ji went to Dehli and made a sacrifice for another religion, and that is what They had set out to do.
Baba Deep Singh Ji had gone out to fight, and received a blow to the neck before they could reach Harimandir Sahib, and thus they carried on fighting until they reached there. Baba Ji was someone who had done a tremendous amount of Sewa and kamai during their lifetime, and I without a doubt believe that they were able to continue fighting until they reached Harimandir Sahib.
I again refuse to take this Sakhi as an example of something, which is should not necessarily be taken literally. Just because it may seem a bit too unbelievable to be true for some of us now, it doesn’t mean it did happen. Back then Sikhs did an unbelievable about of kamai, making it possible for them to do unbelievable things.
DHAN DHAN GURU TEGH BAHADUR JI MAHARAJ
DHAN BABA DEEP SINGH JI SHAHEED
VaheguruSeekr said:
In reference to this Sakhi about Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji, Baba Ji carried on fighting after they received the blow to their neck, because they had pledged to reach Harimandir Sahib before breathing their last.
In contrast to Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji Maharaj, They went to Dehli knowing fore well what was to come, if this was not the case why would Guru Sahib have passed on GurGaddi to their son Gobind Rai (later Guru Gobind Singh Ji) before leaving?
When the Kashmiri Brahmins, led by Pundit Kirpa Ram came to Guru Tegh Bahadur at Anandpur in 1675 for protection against atrocities of Aurungzeb. They had faced stiff taxes, atrocities, and cruelty under Muslim Mughal governor of Kashmir. Honour of their daughters was being lost and they were losing their religion to the fanatic zeal and activities of Islamic crusaders. They asked for a solution. Guru Ji replied, "Such activities can only be stopped by a sacrifice of a great person". Just then 8 years old son of Guru Tegh Bahadur, Gobind Rai (Later Gobind Singh) came along and saw his father in deep thoughts. He enquired about the reason. He offered a possible solution by saying "who else is greater then you, O father". Guru Tegh Bahadur knew immediately about his Dharma. He told Kashmiri Brahmins "Go tell Aurungzeb that if they can convert your Guru then you will all become Muslims." Kirpa Ram obliged and Aurungzeb issued summons for Guru. Guru performed the ceremony and declared that next Guru will be his son, Gobind Rai. Therefore Guru Ji knew what was to come.
The difference between the example of Guru Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji in my eyes is that, Guru Ji went to Dehli and made a sacrifice for another religion, and that is what They had set out to do.
Baba Deep Singh Ji had gone out to fight, and received a blow to the neck before they could reach Harimandir Sahib, and thus they carried on fighting until they reached there. Baba Ji was someone who had done a tremendous amount of Sewa and kamai during their lifetime, and I without a doubt believe that they were able to continue fighting until they reached Harimandir Sahib.
I again refuse to take this Sakhi as an example of something, which is should not necessarily be taken literally. Just because it may seem a bit too unbelievable to be true for some of us now, it doesn’t mean it did happen. Back then Sikhs did an unbelievable about of kamai, making it possible for them to do unbelievable things.
DHAN DHAN GURU TEGH BAHADUR JI MAHARAJ
tuaprasaad
SPNer
re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events
Well said singh99
Well said singh99
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