Christianity Is The Bible Misunderstood By Christians?

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

This is actually a very hot thread!
I´ve been discussing this issue lately with several people. I read a book about indian gurus lately (swedish book/author, nevermind). The author gathered also some information and claimed that Jesus might have gone to India and studied the religious and medical knowledge of his time there before he became himself an active "guru". I don´t know myself that much about the bible as I never read it fully, but I can tell that I´d like to read the new testament now that I know more about other, eastern religions in a neutral translation. I was brought up and educated as a roman catholic and always told to read the bible in a certain -church conform- way. I begin to feel that this whole religion was a huge misunderstanding. One more point to sikhi that claimes all religions to be equal and lead to the same aim .

As you might know there are also some scrips that didn´t make it into the bible called the apocyphas. Here I gathered some examples from the gospel of thomas, that decribes a more gnostic view on the teachings of Jesus.
(I´m not as good as namjap with gathering also the fitting parts from the sggs) - enjoy it:


"If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not bring it forth, what you do not have within you will kill you." Thomas v. 70

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not bring it forth, what you do not have within you will kill you." Thomas v. 70

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

Page 22, Line 12
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुर का कहिआ मनि वसै हउमै त्रिसना मारि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gur kā kahi▫ā man vasai ha▫umai ṯarisnā mār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Let the Words of the Guru abide within your mind; let egotism and desires die. ||1||Pause||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹਿਰਦੈPage 27, Line 14
ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟਿ ਹੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
हिरदै जिन कै हरि वसै तितु घटि है परगासु ॥१॥
Hirḏai jin kai har vasai ṯiṯ gẖat hai pargās. ||1||
Those people, within whose hearts the Lord abides, are radiant and enlightened. ||1||
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

In Thomas v. 77 where Jesus said...I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there.

Page 10, Line 9
ਸੈਲ ਪਥਰ ਮਹਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥੧॥
सैल पथर महि जंत उपाए ता का रिजकु आगै करि धरिआ ॥१॥
Sail pathar mėh janṯ upā▫e ṯā kā rijak āgai kar ḏẖari▫ā. ||1||
From rocks and stones He created living beings; He places their nourishment before them. ||1||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 347, Line 13
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥
है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.
The Lord who created His creation, is Eternal; He is here right now within His creation.
He was never away, He shall never be away.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[shearwater]

Yes, the Bible is misunderstood by some who profess to be Christians. In fact there is much that I as a Christian do not understand. 1 Corithians 13 touches on some of the things we don't understand when it says, "Now we see through a glass darkly. But then we shall know fully even as also we are known of God." And to grasp some of the teachings of the Bible one has to explore the Old Testament as well as the New Testament and lay aside those books that were deemed not worthy to be in the canon sanctioned by the Early Church Fathers who, by common sense, prayer, and wisdom sorted out these things. What I do undertsand charms me because the Bible is a book of miraculous origin and it speaks Gods word, I believe. It is self validating and doesn't hide any dirty laundry, speaking the truth. As proof I cite Isaiah, a book that was written about 700 BCE. In 1947, a sheperd boy found a clay jar in a cave that had Hebrew copies of the books of the Old Tetsament that were hidden inside at Qumran, when the Roman Empire occupied that area. Those copies of Isaiah written on the scrolls were almost identical to the Hebrew texts used to translate into our own English Bible. The Hebrew Isaiah as I understand it was written as the Masoretic Text (Jewish scholars wrote in Greek). In fact careful study made clear that these older texts were slightly clearer but not wholly different in meaning than the King James version. So here we have a panorama of time traversing some 2700 years in which the meanings are the same. While some claim as the Muslims, that the Bible has morphed into meanings very different than the original, Isaiah and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove otherwise.
The Bible is very clear about basic morality set down in the Ten Commandments given at Sinai by Moses. And the key issue with the Bible is that our salvation is impossible without blood sacrifice of something holy and pure. Jesus came as "the Lamb of God" that takes away the sins of the world. The Bible teaches that all men are fallen from an original state of holiness because of the sins of Adam and Eve. As a result of that first sin, we all come under the guilt of a nature that is bent against God and which needs to be restored. When we come to that realization and surrender our wills to God, he makes it possible through the blood of Christ to bring us into relationship with himself. All Christians who are real believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead three days after he was crucified on a Roman cross. Isaiah prophesied this in precise detail 700 some odd years before it happened. I appreciate the Sikh faith because I believe Sikhs sincerely seek to do what Guru Granth Sahib would want.

 

[Astroboy]

Word made flesh--Christ, God-into-Expression Power. The Wordless state of God was manifested, came into expression, and was termed Word. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the whole creation came into being after that, is it not so? So Christ was Word made flesh; He was born as Jesus. He said, "I am that I am." So Christ lived before Jesus.

"If He has not left you, how can you expect that He will come back again?" Of course, that Power manifests Itself from time to time in the human pole, in the human body, to guide the child Humanity--to take them back to God. It is God Who sends Them to the world to bring back all His children. What did Christ say? I have many sheep to look after.

Just to understand His true teachings and compare whether we have lived up to His teachings or not. Hesaid, "I am the light of the world. I am the way."

These words are there: As long as I am in the world. What did this mean? This light; God is light; Word is made flesh. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. The Word made flesh is light. So, that Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

So what is the criterion of the Christ? That Power manifests at different times in the human bodies of different Masters, called by different names. Their purpose is to guide the child Humanity. We are to see now what He said in reference to that. "I am the bread of life. This bread of life has come down from heaven. Whosoever shall partake of it shall have everlasting life."This bread of life--bread or Word--has come down from heaven.

Then He said that others are to eat me and drink me. You find these words in the Bible. Are you to eat the flesh of the human body of Jesus? No, not in the least. He was Word made flesh, and we have to eat the Word within us already. So, how can we have contact with Christ now? He is with us forevermore. That Christ Power is the God-into-Expression Power, or the Master Power or the Guru Power, as we say, that manifests Itself at a human pole, in the human body. Masters are commissioned from God; They are sent from God to bring back His children. So that Power is manifested at different times.

The Word Made Flesh

 

[shearwater]

When Jesus Christ was incarnated (made flesh) from the womb of Mary, it was a very special event. Jesus Christ was before time, one with God as the "Divine Word". His incarnation as a human being made him accessible to us and we can have the assurance that God identifies with us in all of our struggles because as the Bible says, "He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin." The fact that the Bible teaches that we are to commune with him gives us the assurance that God "likes his human creation" and wants fellowship, even though he in himself has perfect love, fellowship and communion as the trinity with himself and does not need us in any social sense. Many of your points are right on and to those I would say, wonderful! And I would summarize by characterizing the Sikh Kalsa (soldier saints) as I find them are wonderful! In fact I automatically say to them who are charitable and seek to help the underclass, "God bless you." in a heart felt way. The spirit within me resonates in the same frequency as them. And this is one thing that we Christians need to learn. Whether or not we abide in God is determined by how we relate to those around us who have needs.:yes:

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Blessings and Light, to you, Narayanjot

Actuall there are many more than 23 versions used by the Protestants. Try hundreds to be in the ball park. But besides all that, Textual Criticism a process engaged in by Bible scholars attempting to reconstruct the text original manuscripts of the Bible, has managed to raise very large doubts as to the authenticity of large parts of the NT, and about the authorship or many Old and New Testament books.

In fact, many scholars have disparaged of ever finding an reconstructing the true message of the Christ. He did not write anything, what we know of him comes mostly from thrid parties. In fact Scholars know now, that the gospels were stories woven around collections of Sayings, by Jesus . In other words, the stories of the Gospels are just that, stories. They differ between each other and ,indeed, present different theologies. In addition large portions of texts have been added or ammended. In fact, there are so many variant texts that it has been said that there can be hundreds of thousands of different readings of the NT (Although most of them do not affect main doctrines seriously)

The cannon of the Bible was also done and completed, under pressure from the Empire and supported only one of many currents in Christianity at the time. There are in Christianity, undoubtedly, some lofty teachings, as there are in all religions, in totality though, there re large parts of Xian theology that are inner contradiction with others. Epicurus, a Greek Philosopher presented a challenge to Judaism around 250 BC which applies even better to Christianity and which Christianity cannot answer unless it retreats to 'God cannot be known' That is to a certainn extent a tautology, in tha,t God cannot be known FULLY by any creature, but I believe we can know enough about God's ethical character, to basically be able to deny large chunks of the theology of some religions.

May all humans learn to walk in the hukam of the will of the Eternal Guru!

Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Hi Narayanjot!

Sorry, but there is no way, that the first Christian Sanganth was in India. Even if St Thomas landed in 52 CE there. Jesus was actually born around 4 BCE, according to most Scholars, Immediately after his death there was a Sangath in Jerusalem meeting in the Jewish temple at first and then in house churches. Soon after that Ethiopia, Samaria, Syria, all had sangath. When Paul started his travels, in the year 46 CE , there wer already many Xian House churches, in Judea, Samaria, Egypt and Ethiopia

Blessings
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Randip ji

To get the full power of this shabad, the last line together with the one before it make Sikhism different from everything else. the view of God different from every other religion.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥
Bėḏ kaṯėb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.
He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਜਾਹਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੧੦੫॥
Nānak kā pāṯisāhu ḏisai jāhrā. ||4||3||105||
The Supreme King of Nanak is immanent and manifest. ||4||3||105||

He is beyond all other scriptures, He is immanent and manifest.
He is transcendent, He is immanent.

Or am I getting it wrong?

Hi Narayanyot

Well I might not know a lot of Sikhi yet, but I cannot see how you can be wrong on this issue. If Sat Guru is Creator, and according to SGGS He most defintely is, then Ware Guru MUST be transcendent in that He has always existed , even before what is! Thus He must have created from outside cvreation and He MUST transcend it. And if the Sat Guru is in all and , the SGGS says it is, then Wahe Guru is immanent in creation
Thus you cannot be wrong!!!

You are BLESSED , my friend, Blessed, indeed!

Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

i was referring to the latter half of the statement:

which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

this is much different than sikhi.

Hello Archived Member

Pardon me, but as a former Xian, I can tell you that Namjap is right on this one. Xians read these together. That is surprising since they often take verses out of their contrxt. Which, by the way, is why NamJap is right , and you are not. Scriptural verses have to be kept in their context Its the first rule of hermeneutics the Science of Interpretation.

Blessings
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

:rofl!!:I was so happy I thought I was in 7th heaven. There is also a seventh heaven -- you see, Christian thinking had antecedents in Judaism but also in Greek and Persian religious practices, particularly mystical traditions. The Hellenistic world of the time was awash in inter-mingling spiritual and religious ideas. What we have today are religions that forged new identities but from an amalgam of many different sources and philosophies. This link will help you out.

What is the "third heaven"?

Nlessing Narayanjot

The Third heaven is purely from Persian religion AZ (After Zarathushtra) . In The Arda Viraf Nahmeh a book about a Sassanian era Saint called Arda Viraf he travels to heaven and hell and He enters heaven by taking three steps. One places him in the heaven of Good Thoughts and the next two place him in the Heaven of Good Thought and Finally in the Heaven of Good deed where the Archangel VohuMan (Good Loving Thinking) leads him to the throne of Ahura Mazda.

Needles to say, not only were the Jews liberated from captivity by the Persians but the Persians rebuilt their Temple and ruled them over 200 years, heavily influencing Jewish religion.

Now 7th heaven could simpkly come from the well known idea of the ancients that 7 was the perfect and complete number, the number of God.


Divine Radiant Light for You!
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

I don't like that. All the Abrahamic religions' core belief is that there is only one true path to God and that is Christianity, Judaism, Islam respectively. It is intrinsic to their belief system that anyone who does not follow that particular path is doomed to eternity in hell. They are required by the tennants of thier faith and laws of compassion to preach their particular gospel to people they consider "lost." Islam in particular is very intolerant of other faiths to this day, to the point that many Muslim scholars teach that it is only a sin to kill "innocents" and the definition to them of an innocent is a Muslim, therefore it is not a sin to kill non-Muslims.

Unofortunately, intolerance is part and parcel of the Abrahamic faiths as they are generally practiced. That's why I agree with the title of this thread that the Bible IS misunderstood by Christians. Jesus had a whole different kind of message, but it's gone right over the heads of almost everybody who has ever been a Christian or even heard about "Christianity" today.



In my opinion, Jesus was not a Christian and would not have subscribed to the religion as it stands today. If he was alive today, he would probably be a Sikh, or perhaps a Buddist -- but he certainly would NOT be a Christian.

JMHO



As far as the tattoo, I don't know what you meant by that. I think tattoos are up to each individual but that's my own opinion. I happen to respect individual rights and the ability of each person to understand God as God reveals himself (or herself) to that individual. I don't think it's up to any of us to judge what is right or wrong for the next guy as long as they are not harming or infringing upon the rights of others. 'He who is without sin cast the first stone,' so to speak.

Peace out!

Hi Caroline ...

One tiny bit of correction. Jews have NEVER held that Gentiles (every one who is not a Jew) goes to hell, just because they are gentiles, which is what some, although not all, Xians believe of other religions. As for Muslims, if I understand the Quran, People´s of the Book will probably be saved. But some Muslims believe only Muslims , in fact only Muslims belonging to one denomination will be saved.

Blessings
Curious

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Hey, I know I'm a bit late, but let someone with a Reform Jewish background join the conversation. I just read this by CarolineJi:

." It is intrinsic to their belief system that anyone who does not follow that particular path is doomed to eternity in hell. They are required by the tennants of thier faith and laws of compassion to preach their particular gospel to people they consider "lost"

And though I come from a very liberal background, I can tell you that Modern Jews today do not believe or practice this. Ancient Judaism was just interested in the ethnic Jewish people and their God, not in missionizing others and indeed believed in the 'Laws of Noah' that if other peoples practiced them they were godly...
Maybe this is why the Christians and Muslims did and do persecute Jewish people.

Now think of the Gurus and the Sikh religion. The Sikhs are monotheist, have the 10 Gurus and they never felt the need to persecute anyone, particularly Jewish people. And they spread Sikhi in a good and thoughtful way. I really admire this.

To me the 'proof is in the pudding' meaning you can talk all you want about Jesus & the 'Sermon on the Mount' etc....but I will take Sikh religion as promoting a better spiritual character and spiritual state over Christianity any day.

Right on, right on!

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

And for centuries before that. It is shameful. An understatement at best. Whereas the Sikh religion teaches its followers to hate nobody and only to take arms to defend the weak. To me this is superior This is one of several reasons why many people are looking at Sikhim and converting.

Ushta Narayanjot

The above quite is what I have been trying to get accross to some Sikhi. Not all religions ae the same. Some religions because of sloppy theology, contradictory teachings and sometimes just bad doctrine are nowhere near to others. In fact I can only think of 2 religions, that I could ever possible follow Sikhi and Daena Vanguhi. Of course there are sects within other religions that I could probably live with but I would have to swallow hard!

Blessings!

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Is the Bible Misunderstood by Christians ?

Caroline ji, I too understand this to be the case.

Having said this, I will not be alas a participant in the thread any longer.

NOTE: IN ORDER TO MODERATE THIS THREAD, I WILL BE RECUSING MYSELF AS A DISCUSSANT.

Caroline and narayanjit

The mention of Jesus by Josephus , is thought to be a Christian interpolation by almost all scholars. In fact, I seem to remember that there uis one copy of Josephus where there is no mentuion of Jesus.
However, I do believe Jesus was historical and that he was more than just an apocalyptic preacher, altho¡ugh he did include apocalyptic teaching amongst his teachingHere , agagain i am afraid, we can blame the Persian religion (AZ, course) for Apocalyptic thinking.