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Is It Ok To Have Langar On Chairs And Tables?

japjisahib04

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Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.


The problem arose because some people have TWISTED the meaning of PANGAT to mean "sitting on the floor". Pangat actually means IN A LINE, or ROW or Column. LOOK in any dictionary, kosh and you will see that not in a single place is PANGAT defined as "sitting on the floor". I have all the latest and olde dictionaries of Punjabi-English, even the ones on the internet on line, and most importantly even the MAHAN KOSH of Kahn Singh Nabha gives the meaning of PANGAT as LINE ( ktar).

Secondly there is a FALSE sense of "humility" attached to "sitting on the floor". This sitting on the floor is an Asian Trait...Muslims, Hindus and others also sit on the floor. Does this alone make all these EXTRA HUMBLE as compared to say the Christians ? Have these so called "humble" religion followers KILLED any less people, robbed any less people of their rightful lands, raped and plundered any less than say the Christians ? Are the Snakes, etc who CRAWL along the floor all their life.... any more HUMBLE than say other life forms ??

GURBANI and our GURUS were above all such "FRAUDALENT" behaviours...like ooch neech, such bhit, khooth such, bathing purity, jaat paat. GURU JI saw what caste divisions were doing to the people... LOW CASTES couldnt eat with the higher cates, they couldnt bathe at the same places as high castes, they couldnt walk at places frequented by high castes, they couldnt drink water from tas and wells of the high castes....THESE were the EVILS the GURUS tried to abolish by providing COMMON LANGGAR ( where everyone regardeless of caste etc ate TOGETHER ) they provided SAROVARS...where EVERYONE regardeless of caste COULD BATHE TOGETHER ( instead of separate wells etc ). IT so just happened that langgars catering to thousands were better served by FLOOR SITTING.. imagine the logistics of thousands of chairs, places to keep such in storage etc especially when Gurdwaras were rudimentary. For example at Holla Mahalla in Anandpur recently nearly 5 million people were fed Langgar daily for a week... fro such huge crowds langgar on the floor is a necessity...NOT GUR MARYADA REQUIREMENT.

There is NOT a SINGLE LINE in GURBANI or Bhai gurdass Ji's Vaars that REQUIRE SITTING ON THE FLOOR as MANDATORY MARYADA for Langgar...conveneince - YES, Practicality - YES, tradition - YES...BUT STRICTLY MARYADA - NO. In this instance ALL SINGLE LINES are taken out of context and given a twisted meaning...IF the ENTIRE SHABAD is taken as a whole and translated... the meaning will be clearly NOT what the Floor sitters say it is. IF Sitting on the FLOOR was that mandatory maryada the GUrus would have mentioned it more clearly and unequivocally in GURBANI and hukmnamas...BUT surprisingly it IS NOT.

Our GURUS were stricklers for HYGEINE rather than the brahmin ideas about sucham bhittam.. it is definitley more practical and hygenical to CLEAN and WIPE tables when langgar spills occur....THAN say Tappars and Saffan whcih are impossible to Clean if dal etc is spilled...it is all RUBBED IN for bacteria to spread. Wearing shoes when eating off tables in no way offends any sikhi/gurmat rule...but still no one wears shoes in langgar halls..BUT walking barefooted on tappars filled with dried up daal and kheer of yester years is definitley NOT HEALTHY for anyone...as a lot of DUST is stirred up directly into Thalis. Langgar halls floors and tables and chairs benches are WASHED every DAY...BUT the Tappars and Carpets are rolled up week after week, year after year....
Now lets us consider a few other relevant points:
The AKAL TAKHAT - this is NOT a building of bricks and stones . IT is the THRONE of AKAL PURAKH, WAHEGURU as opposed to the Throne of Delhi/any other country. The THRONE OF AKAAL just like the KHALSA of WAHEGURU are entities that are FOREVER...FREE of the shackles of Time, and this WORLD. Individuals, buildings, aikhs that are IN THIS WORLD will go after their time is over....BUT NOT the AKAAL TAKHAT....of the TIMELESS ONE. SO what "HUKMNAMA" will come from this REAL AKAAL TAKHAT - there can be ONLY ONE HUKMNAMA from this Takhat - the HUKMNAMA called GURBANI which is the Guiding LIght of the KHALSA. GURBANI is the ONE thing in this World that is TIMELESS and it comes from AKAAL - WAHEGURU. So we MUST look to GURBANI for guidance...GURBANI has been written ONCE, and it cannot be Changed or altered or Withdrawn or cancelled..IT is TRULY TIMELESS....and GURBANI doesnt say WE MUST SIT ON THE FLOOR for LANGGAR or it is WRONG to sit on Tables for Langgar. The WORD used is PANGAT and that means LINE, ROW, COLUMN...in other words... a ROW/COLUMN/LINE of people of all races, creeds, religions, height/weight/colour/caste/shape...TOGETHER sharing their FOOD so that NO ONE feels left out/neglected/slighted/in any way whatsoever.
Isnt it totally surprising that langgar on tables and chairs has been INSTITUTIONALISED in Overseas GURDWARAS for nearly 100 YEARS... countless jathedars, sants, priest, granthis, raagis, kathakaars including luminaries like Sant Principal Teja Singh Double MA ( from HARVARD) all VISITED these Gurdwars and ate langgar on tables and chairs and none saw any thing WRONG or anti maryada....until POLITICS reared its ugly head. This "hukmnama" has got to be the ONE that caused the most animosity, clashes, millions of dollars in litigations, police presence, fights and a CIRCUS of SIKHS in the World Media. The RSS and Anti-Sikhs must be Laughing till they fall of their own Tables and Chairs looking at what the Sikhs are doing to themselves.

The PRINCIPLES of RELIGION cannot be changed....but traditions, maryada, rrules, regulations etc can be changed and are changed according to time and period and society we live in. At one time every jatt in Punjab ate his luch under a tree in his khet itself..now a days many if not all come home to eat luch seated on a manja with an electric fan to cool down. Punjabi schools used to have classes on the GROUND outside under trees...now there are very few schools that do this. At one time all Rural wedings usd to take place in the village homes....and langgar used to be seved on khes and chadran...then came the Marriage palaces and CATERERS...no more cooking, no more khes and darrian...Times change and so do people..NO ONE can hold back such changes especially when they are NOT AGAINST GURBANI or the PRINCIPLES of GURMATT.

Jarnail Singh
Respected Gianiji
With due respect, let me remind you that concept of langar is not limited to sharing FOOD so that NO ONE feels left out/neglected/slighted/in any way whatsoever. It is much more than that. For me when I am sitting in a panghat and stretch my hand for drop of chapati, this is what is humility. Will you get that feeling while sitting on chairs. It is nothing more than buffet. In addition the unparallel beauty of this unique langer which no other faith till today has been able to match is chances are you will find a millionaire, your well-to-do neighbor, sitting next to peon or the taxi-wallah, both engaged in a gastronomic feast, suddenly equated by that basic human urge, hunger. It is an integral part of our heritage and still very much alive. It is another little “feather in our cap” that makes us unique! It is symbol of humility and equaility.
Same people who talk of heritage for replacing our old Gurudwara into marbles, do not remember that talking of bringing chairs and table is as much against our heritage.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

Even the Takhat jathedars who "justified" the langaar on floor could only rely on PARAMPRAA - "tradition"..because there is nothing in Gurbani that says "equality" can only be achieved by sitting on the floor. IN GURU Ji's time everything was done on the floor - schools were on the floor, panchaytas had meetings on the floor... ( recently we had some news feeds on Punjab Panchayat elections and a video showed the various candidates sitting under trees on the ground filling up their FORMS...!

I always maintain that the PANGAT refers to ORDER and DISCIPLINE. Tables and Chairs of the SAME TYPE....where the King and the pauper sit side by side at the SAME table and on the SAME BENCH...are as EQUAL as if they were sitting on a Tappar/Mat on the Floor. And ones hand can be stretched for a roti while sitting at a table as well as siting on a mat..i cant see how this affects anything. In the lovcal Gurdwara we sit at tables on benches, and when the sewadaar passes by we stretch our hand for the Rotis...just as those sitting on mats do....unless it is implied that there is "more humility" in making the sewadaar drop the roti from as high as possible !! ( i dont think this was the intention)
Philosophically speaking the entire Planet is Guru's Abode as He is everywhere..but it is asking a bit too much to leave our shoes at the Gurdwara Gates...and treat the entire Complex as "Parkash asthaan"...the Car parks, the toilets, the Gardens, the corridors etc are NOT "Parkash asthaan" and so shoes can be worn ...as usual the Sikh Rehat maryada is very CLEAR on thsi point..NO BHARAMS/SHANKAs are allowed...even if Doing Ardass outside, or Carrying the Guru garanth Ji...and the Place is Muddy/dirty etc..SHOES MUST be WORN...and it is not advised to make the feet DIRTY under the false impression that GURU JI must always be carried by NANGEH PEREE..barefooted/ or ardass must be bay BAREFOOTED persons only. Our religion, our Guru ji, our GURBANI is very PRACTICAL and no bharams shankas superstitions etc allowed where commonsense says otherwise. Dont for a moment be under the impression that GURU JI will be "very happy" that you stepped on a dog poo while carrying HIM barefooted and now are sitting in the Car smelling of dog poo.....or that your feet are full of mud when you stepped into a puddle of dirty water...HOW are you going to WASH your feet while GURU JI is on your HEAD ?? what happesn if you slip and fall while struggling to wash your feet of caked mud ?? we have to be sensible..the Rehat maryada says so.

In the parkash Asthaan also the GURU is the One that is HOLY..NOT the Place. We keep the shoes off and feet washed because everyone is sitting on the floor, there are carpets, and it would be bringing in dirt if we wear shoes. Jithe jaye baheh mera satguur so than suhavah ..is NOT referrign to a Physical place...IT is referring to GURU ji's PRESENCE. SO when GURU JI is PRESENT in a former STADIUM... the Guru Ji's PRESENCE makes the thaan suhava..after GURU JI leaves the Stadium reverts back to stadium ( even though Guru Ji was THERE a few minutes earlier )...and NO ONE is OBLIGED to enter the stadium barefooted any more. Naggar kirtans take place along public roads...are we to walk those streets barefooted for ever ?? Such Bharams dont exist in Gurmatt.

This is a modern world..we can PICK and CHOOSE...from Western Tradition/eastern Tradition/Muslim tradition/Jewish tradition/chinese tradition whatever...IF it is GOOD and and doesnt go against GURMATT we can adopt ..personally I am all for the Disciplined and orderly way the Muslims sit in the Mosques...all in neat rows... whereas we sikhs sit all over the place..and Muslims have no parshaad to distribute !! which is very difficult to do in a place where everyoen is sittting all ways...and the devotion muslims show in attending mosque ( with no langgar to look forward to)..while many sikhs just go for langgar only !! IF langgar is stopped ....attendances will drop significantly.

Thats all. Please take what is per Gurmatt and discard what is MY own Manmatt. NO offense . Malice meant towards anyone... Love for all.


Jarnail Singh
 

japjisahib04

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Respected Gianiji

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa,
Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Thanks for taking time. I fully understand your view point. Please note langar is an extension of Karah Prashad. It is not a picnic or buffet lunch or breakfast. it is to be accepted with same humility as we accept Karah Prashad while sitting. It is not served in the street like 'chhhabeel' but is served in the vicinity of Gurdwara. I agree entire Planet is Guru's Abode as He is everywhere, but to accept His blessing or to accept the Prashsd one alway bow down. I agree we can PICK and CHOOSE...from Western Tradition/eastern Tradition/Muslim tradition/Jewish tradition/chinese tradition whatever. But please note when it comes to our heritage, our very strength, our pride, can we compromise. Har-Mandir Sahib (Golden Darbar Sahib), Amristar, is the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Sikhs, built below the level of the city as a mark of humility in complete contrast to churches, mandirs, masjids, etc, where one walks up the stairs. This is an expression of the Eternal Truth, that for wisdom, one needs humility. And acceprting the Karah Prasad or Langar is accepting His gifts bestowed upon us.
Regards sahni Mohinder
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Piarae veer Sahni Mohinder Ji,

waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

Total agreement with you on the view that Guru ka Langgar is NOT a roadside Dhabba/chabeel etc..It is Guru's Blessing.
In Guru Ji's time it was Langgar FIRST and then SANGAT ( Pehle Pangat pechheh SANGAT)....Guur Ji wanted everyone to ACCEPT the Pangat discipline of Equality/castelessness/rich poor differences erased.... as well as have a full stomach...so that FULL ATTENTION could then be paid to SHABAD VICHAAR in SANGAT. Guru Ji understood that BHOOKHEH BHGATEE NA HOI..but now all over the world Gurdwaras have changed this system to SANGAT firsd and then LANGGAR..in Guur Ji's time one COULD NOT have darshan of Guru Ji WITHOUT langgar....NOW most Siksh come ONLY for Langgar..Guru ji's Darshan is secondary and just as part of "obligation" so as not to "feel guilty" for eating free langgar !!..or they feel "obligated" to do some sewa like washing dishes etc in return for Langgar. These are ALL WRONG bharams that have crept in.

Since Langgar was BEFORE Guru's Ji's DARSHAN... it couldnt be an "extension" of Karah parshaad as this is normally given at end of SANGAT-SHABAD-VICHAAR....while langgar was consumed even before having met the GUru. Now most people "balk" at the idea of receiving "karah Parshaad" and always insist on the "tiny" helping as they mistakenly beleive this causes heart disease/blood pressure/diabetes...and even the TINY helping is just taken to "oblige"...and NOt as a GURU BLESSINGS !!! How times have CHANGED !!!

Thanks for sharing your valuable views. Much appreciated. I also read your comments on Other Forums. Keep this up.

Jarnail Singh
 

japjisahib04

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Respected Gianiiji

It is good to share with you my views. I feel it is a contemplation. It is a bhakti. I am in total agreement with you that concept is being changed. But it does not mean we get strayed. See the level of corruption entered into judiciary, police, politics, but it does not mean we stop living or we change our guru. It is truth which remains.

Gianiji, with due respect please note BHOOKHEH BHGATEE NA HOI is written in the background of Kirat karna and then Naam Japna. Guru Nanak rejects renunciation of family life. Its religion is the religion of workers and householders. A Sikh is not to be a hermit living in the cities. Gurbani tells us, “One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has- O Nanak, he only knows the Path.”- Guru Granth ang.1245.19. Thus he advocate social life, married, ran modikhanna and naam japna and share his earning with others. We must do our own efforts to earn our livelihood for honorable living and not beg with a bowl in hand There is no trade-in, in Guru Nanak’s house. Unlike Islam where hourie, somras or palaces studded with perals and diamondsiis offered in the heaven Guru Nanak said I have nothing but Naam. The concept of langar is spiritual and not invite devotees with bribing food. It is prepared with the donation of saadh sanghat so it has to be accepted with humility and not enjoyed as picnic.

I hope I am very clear but will welcome any suggestion or comments.

Regards Sahni Mohinder
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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japjisahib04 said:
Respected Gianiiji



.. BHOOKHEH BHGATEE NA HOI is written in the background of Kirat karna and then Naam Japna. Guru Nanak rejects renunciation of family life. Its religion is the religion of workers and householders. A Sikh is not to be a hermit living in the cities. Gurbani tells us, “One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has- O Nanak, he only knows the Path.”- Guru Granth ang.1245.19. Thus he advocate social life, married, ran modikhanna and naam japna and share his earning with others. We must do our own efforts to earn our livelihood for honorable living and not beg with a bowl in hand There is no trade-in, in Guru Nanak’s house. Unlike Islam where hourie, somras or palaces studded with perals and diamondsiis offered in the heaven Guru Nanak said I have nothing but Naam. The concept of langar is spiritual and not invite devotees with bribing food. It is prepared with the donation of saadh sanghat so it has to be accepted with humility and not enjoyed as picnic.

I hope I am very clear but will welcome any suggestion or comments.

Regards Sahni Mohinder
yes veer ji quite clear. thanks. agree completely on the kirt karna wand chhakna principle of Guru nanak Ji. Wonder why all the modern day SANTS/BABAS are all "Brahmcharis"...and do no work. There is historical proof that ALL the Sikh Gurus worked for a living and didnt live off the free golak/charrawa..and they all ( exception is child guru Harkrishen Ji) got married, had many children and lived as householders. None of the SANTS/BABAS have any families as they beleive mistakenly that brahmcharee is good and family interfers in their bhagtee.

Thank you once more for a good read.

Jarnail Singh.
 

punjabi004

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japjisahib04 said:
Respected Gianiji
With due respect, let me remind you that concept of langar is not limited to sharing FOOD so that NO ONE feels left out/neglected/slighted/in any way whatsoever. It is much more than that. For me when I am sitting in a panghat and stretch my hand for drop of chapati, this is what is humility. Will you get that feeling while sitting on chairs. It is nothing more than buffet. In addition the unparallel beauty of this unique langer which no other faith till today has been able to match is chances are you will find a millionaire, your well-to-do neighbor, sitting next to peon or the taxi-wallah, both engaged in a gastronomic feast, suddenly equated by that basic human urge, hunger. It is an integral part of our heritage and still very much alive. It is another little “feather in our cap” that makes us unique! It is symbol of humility and equaility.
Same people who talk of heritage for replacing our old Gurdwara into marbles, do not remember that talking of bringing chairs and table is as much against our heritage.
Can I add that after all these years people acually thought that they should sit on the floor, why can't there just be one gurdwara with half tables and half chairs if you wanna sit one the ground so be it or vice versa but why do we spend billions of dollors and make more gurdwaras for the people that sit on the ground and instead of one sikh race were making 2 sikh races why?? There is very limited of us sikhs so lets stay together. To be a true sikh you don't show it by waring long Cholas and huge turbans its whats inside that counts what those people are doing is pollitical.
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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People so often focus on the mundane without any logical thought that they often become unable to see the forest for the trees.

"Chairs or floors? Chairs or floors?"

Guru Gobind Singh would have a right laugh at this. No wonder he had to make the Five K's. These are the kinds of people he's had to try and turn into free, noble human beings.
 

punjabi004

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max314 said:
Guru Gobind Singh would have a right laugh at this. No wonder he had to make the Five K's. These are the kinds of people he's had to try and turn into free, noble human beings.
I agree with you man the Guru is probally laughing at this. Saying what the hell are my singhs doing.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Imho...Guru Ji is not laughing..He is probably shedding tears of grief at our state..He spent 250 YEARS and ten lifetimes Dragging us out of the Deep PIT of Superstition, Bharams, idle talk and no action etc...and we have FALLEN back in..in just 75 years..and DIGGING DEEPER by the DAY....Can anyone Imagine what will be our state in 2000 years as in Christianity's age ?? or 2500 years as in Buddhism's age ??

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

punjabi004

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Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
Imho...Guru Ji is not laughing..He is probably shedding tears of grief at our state..He spent 250 YEARS and ten lifetimes Dragging us out of the Deep PIT of Superstition, Bharams, idle talk and no action etc...and we have FALLEN back in..in just 75 years..and DIGGING DEEPER by the DAY....Can anyone Imagine what will be our state in 2000 years as in Christianity's age ?? or 2500 years as in Buddhism's age ??

Gyani jarnail Singh
You are very right Giani Ji where there were 1 huge sikh religion seams like now there are 2 and where we all laughed and cried together now we are making each other cry. Why Why Whhhhhyyyy.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
yes veer ji quite clear. thanks. agree completely on the kirt karna wand chhakna principle of Guru nanak Ji. Wonder why all the modern day SANTS/BABAS are all "Brahmcharis"...and do no work. There is historical proof that ALL the Sikh Gurus worked for a living and didnt live off the free golak/charrawa..and they all ( exception is child guru Harkrishen Ji) got married, had many children and lived as householders. None of the SANTS/BABAS have any families as they beleive mistakenly that brahmcharee is good and family interfers in their bhagtee.

Thank you once more for a good read.

Jarnail Singh.
Respected Gyani Sahib Ji,

not all fingeres are equal.

das knows that there are many Sants in Nirmalas who actully work in field attched to thier Dera and sell say flowers and then eat food from that money.

for then Puja Ka Dhan or wealth of offering to be used for personal purpose is like poision.As it cheating with Sangat.

Likewise they may have cows or other priamry mode of productions.And offering are not used for personal purposes.

Then we have other simlar exapmles in non Nirmalas like Gobindsadan.org.

And in the case of Seva Panthis (sevapanthi.org) they have tradtion of making and selling the ink for the livlyhood.

Then if someones says that we must provide proof from neutral source then spgc is not neutral,Say can we deem Moghuls as neutral for the Hindu sikhs conflicts at the time of Guru.

So proof for Sikhs needs to be best from Sikh source and same can be said for orders above.

Main prolbme comes that often our missioanriers are also paid from the mony offered in offering to Gurudwaras.Even if they spend thier time inpreaching,they must do some other work to earn,then being just one the payrole of the management.

Reasom for das writing so is that if they are finalicaly indepenadant they they will be bold enough to point out anti panthic politcal rivliaries in Gurudwaras,which are biggest problems in preaching.

Coming to Baba's or fake Sant's in Panth,we can judge by simeple fact as you told that if Sant is true then he/She(das hope that we may have feamle Sant(nis) like in Hindus) must not utlise the fund of offering for personal use.

Das himself is realy fed up by wrong interpetaion of Gurbani as well as wrong way of life by fake Sants/Babas and they out number perhaps the good Sants or Mahapurushs.
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Lionchild said:
well we do it because we don't want escalation.. next peopel will want to have seperate sections of a langer room for different "casts" will we just dismiss that, we need to draw a line somewhere...
No, I think that already happened with the creation of 'Ram Garhia Gurudwaras' :}{}{}:

I think to say that planting yer tooshie on a chair - like where it is right now - will lead to caste seperations in langar halls is a fair bit of a stretch. No-one's getting divided. We're all sitting on the same level...it's just six inches higher than before and a lot easier on the back and legs...

...damn, I've still got that daal stain on my sock from last Sunday :}{}{}:

punjabi004 said:
I agree with you man the Guru is probally laughing at this. Saying what the hell are my singhs doing.
No matter how far an {censored} travels, it'll never come back a horse :{-:)

OMG

:shutup:
 
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punjabi004

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max314 said:
No, I think that already happened with the creation of 'Ram Garhia Gurudwaras' :}{}{}:

I think to say that planting yer tooshie on a chair - like where it is right now - will lead to caste seperations in langar halls is a fair bit of a stretch. No-one's getting divided. We're all sitting on the same level...it's just six inches higher than before and a lot easier on the back and legs...

...damn, I've still got that daal stain on my sock from last Sunday :}{}{}:



No matter how far an {censored} travels, it'll never come back a horse :{-:)

OMG

:shutup:
This guys speaks the truth I agree with you 100%.

I also still can't get the sag stain out on my cream color pants :mad: thats what happens when you sit on the floor I guess :(
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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punjabi004 said:
This guys speaks the truth I agree with you 100%.

I also still can't get the sag stain out on my cream color pants :mad: thats what happens when you sit on the floor I guess :(
Man...you should feel the knot in your stomach when some pint-sized kid is running full pelt down the isle with a frighteningly precarious-looking glass of water in its hands... :}{}{}:
 

max314

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May 28, 2006
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Heh...I can just see Guru Gobind Singh looking down on us now: "sit on the damn chairs, you fruitcakes!" :}{}{}:
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 25, 2006
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i totally agree with amarpal but when my english asked the class this question (we were discussing sumthing) i thought i maybe wrong to say what amarpal has said
 

Randip Singh

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Amarpal said:
Dear etinder Jee,

The institution of Langar was created by Guru Sahib to erase the feeling of caste that was imprinted into the mind of people if India due to historical reasons. The concept of equality is forged into the mind of Sangat by eating together in langar. This concept alone should not be violated.

If all members in Sangat are treated alike i.e. all eat in langar sitting on chairs with tables in front of them to keep the served plates; this does not violate the concept of equality, it is in order. Under such conditions, there is nothing wrong in having chairs and tables in Langar Halls.

The question of Maryada does not arise.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal
I agree 100%..................
 

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