Islam Is Islam A Religion Of Peace?

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

Allow me to give a simple answer then..YES

Now let's see if we can develop a more reasoned debate here as I can see you have been letting off a bit of steam on this theme in different threads

First and foremost a few things about me to set the context...I am Indian and Scottish and have read various bits and pieces over the years including a large portion of the Qu'ran.

I am no fan of Islam and there are aspects, which you have already highlighted elsewhere, that I find down right unpalatable

So I am not going to deny those elements exist

Am I going to condemn an entire religion and all it's followers on the basis of some dodgy scripture and the actions of a minority element???

No I am not

So there's my initial volley.....over to you mate!
:eek:rangesingh:
 
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

I am right behind LionSingh.

and islam is Not a religion of peace.

most of the english translations you will find on the quran especially ones dealing with jihad, killing are actually sugar coated down and changed so non-muslims will never fully understand that islam is a religion of war againt the non-muslims, aka kaffir.


I have researched islam for years and can tell you. That if you really want to understand islam you need to understand the term Taqiyya
Which is lying for islam to make it sound good, to disguise the nasty stuff in islam and lie and deceive non-muslims.

Please view this video
YouTube - Taqiyya in islam

This is all im posting for now, not sure what the admins are like here. But we should be allowed to form our opinion. After all in a democratic country we are allowed free speech.
Now i wounder how much free speech you will get in an islamic country like saudia arabia hmmm. I wounder when their will be a church or gurdwara in that country ....
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

admin does not have a problem when a member posts a negative opinion as long as two things are true:

1. The opinion is informed
2. The opinion is not expressed with insulting or abusive language

Your post is fine. There are no problems with it. And I encourage you to be a positive model for others who wish to present a critical perspective.
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

I am right behind LionSingh.

Okay..so what is it that you/LionSingh Ji want to achieve here?

Do yo want all SPN'ers to say yes Islam is a religion of War? Yes all Muslims are jihadist extremist terrorists? Will you then consider you have achieved something? Is that the sort of thing Sikhism would encourage?

I don't know the answers which is why I am asking you

What do you do when you see a Muslim in the street.
Do you think.,..yeah you're just a good for nothing trouble-maker with zero contribution to society?

I am also assuming that as a matter of choice you have zero Muslim acquaintances either socially or at work....would that be correct?

And incidentally I disagree with your view that it is not a religion of peace....but that's the great thing about this forum and being able to have a reasoned debate... there are few religions where the followers haven't taken up arms (rightly or wrongly) in the name of their religion

Personally, I go with a each to their own philosophy....as long as they follow it properly and don't bother me or others, then it's fine. When they force it on me or others, then it's wrong for them to do so. And I have already said in my first post what I think about it as a whole. I will also agree that at this moment in time, there appears to be more terrorist activity on their part than any other movement which is just wrong and socially unacceptable and something needs to be done about it.

But I would suggest that the majority of Muslims are not like that at all. Or maybe they are just generally more affable in Scotland than other parts of the World?? And i do have Muslim acquaintances at work who do not fit the stereotype you and LionSingh are painting here. So I will still not condemn the entire religioin on the basis of some dodgy scripture and a minority extremeist element.

That's the great thing about this forum...being able to air opposing views in a reasoned way
 

lionsingh

SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

Never said I was aginst Muslims, but reading the Koran , I find it nothing to do with peace. As for dodgy scripture, if we were to give any critique, the penalty would be death.

As for the terrorist part and activity...where does it come from.
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

Never said I was aginst Muslims, but reading the Koran , I find it nothing to do with peace. As for dodgy scripture, if we were to give any critique, the penalty would be death.

As for the terrorist part and activity...where does it come from.

Then may I suggest you read it again?

I just took my copy and opened it on different pages at random and did this 5 times and did not come across any lines inciting violence at all. Not even one.

As for where the terrorist part comes from...it's from a minority element latching on to the "dodgy bits" you and I have already agreed exist.

But as I am now saying a third time, I will not condemn the entire religion on the basis of a minority. What does that mean? Well according to Wikipedia:

A comprehensive 2009 demographic study of 232 countries and territories reported that 23% of the global population or 1.57 billion people are Muslims.
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
I have researched islam for years and can tell you. That if you really want to understand islam you need to understand the term Taqiyya Which is lying for islam to make it sound good, to disguise the nasty stuff in islam and lie and deceive non-muslims.


This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"Taqiyya is the Islamic practice of precautionary dissimulation whereby believers may conceal their Muslim faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion.[1] The term taqiyya (تقیه) (pronounced as tagiyeh by speakers of Iranian Persian; alternate spelling taqiya) is derived from the Arabic triliteral root waw-qaf-ya, denoting "piety, devotion, uprightness, and godliness, and it means the brightest star"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Having read it, I would have to conclude that the way you have described it is not how it is described on Wikipedia
 

sunmukh

(Previously Himmat Singh)
SPNer
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam


Seeker9 ji quoted from "Wikipedia"

"A comprehensive 2009 demographic study of 232 countries and territories reported that 23% of the global population or 1.57 billion people are Muslims."

Seeker9 ji:

Does the encylopedia also explain how these numbers grew to these levels - by gentle persuasion alone ?

Even if a religion is intended by its founder/s to be peaceful and tolerant, if its subsequent followers conduct their actions under the name of the religion, then many outsiders will view the religion as hostile, or intolerant.


Then to Lionsingh ji:

Why ask the question only about Islam? The same sort of question can be asked if radical muslims, sikhs, hindus, christians, jews or whatever become pre-eminent, and take the lead in presentation to the world. They can make it seem like much of the adherents are of like mind.We need only look back to 1970s and 80s in Punjab, as it didn't look to outsiders that Sikhs were all nice, humble, compassionate peace loving people, whilst they sported AK47s.

These sort of questions don't lead anywhere quickly, and asking them can cause problems.
There is an english saying:

"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Most, if not all religions have some dark aspects and some bad history, and many still have some adherents who claim to be ideal, almost God-like humans. They see themselves as well above others, and use quite derogatory language against others. This includes Sikhism., which despite claiming it has no caste distiction, has the same in effect not only between people on occupation basis, but also on whether they keep a certain appearance or not. Most adherents are treated as second rate citizens and aren't afforded the same level of respect or treatment or benefits as so called "gursikhs" are. All Sikhs are not at all tolerant, eg of people who claim to be sikh but don't keep rehat, or of other sects. Some can and do get quite abusive and even violent, but it doesn't then mean all sikhs are hostile. The problem is with the leaders who don't condemn these people, but sometimes even commend them or award them sant status. This then suggests to the outside world that the whole faith is made up of people to be wary of.

One should do the best one can do, and live up to the standards one would like others to live by.

People cannot be relied upon to be either peaceful or hostile simply because they claim adherence to any faith. One should judge on actual actions, and of individuals, if one really must judge at all.

Don't overly attach yourself emotionally to any faith and its leaders or organisers. The faiths are all created by humans, all subject to human failings, and the leaders do not have to be anything like the founders at all. They have huge vested interests, that they can ill afford to lose. Greed of power and/or money is a mighty draw to most humans.

Read SGGS ji at least once, understand the bani, and above all keep faith in God, the master of destiny, the architect of all these worldly dramas. It is His sport, and only He really knows why there is any conflict caused by religions, whether it be inter-faith or intra-faith. If all people who all claim faith in a God based religion, shifted to worship of God alone, and abandoned all the paraphernalia of their religions to date, we would have much higher chance of achieving "Raj karega Khalsa". If the so-called "khalsa" itself cannot do this it will remain nothing but a pipe-dream. Ego is one big thing to get over, irrespective of faith.

Sat Sri Akal
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Dear Sunmukh Ji

Does the encylopedia also explain how these numbers grew to these levels - by gentle persuasion alone
?

Not sure what the answer is to that one, albeit an interesting and relevant question

Taliban aside, 1.57 billion is big numbers.....a lot of people....perhaps I am getting soft in my old age but I am inclined to thing the majority of them want to be and are happy to be Muslim...however, I have no way of proving it...but to go to the opposite extreme, I think it is fair to surmise the majority of them would not be jihadist or inclined to terrorism or extremism

Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist??
 

kds1980

SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

Then may I suggest you read it again?

I just took my copy and opened it on different pages at random and did this 5 times and did not come across any lines inciting violence at all. Not even one.

As for where the terrorist part comes from...it's from a minority element latching on to the "dodgy bits" you and I have already agreed exist.

But as I am now saying a third time, I will not condemn the entire religion on the basis of a minority. What does that mean? Well according to Wikipedia:

A comprehensive 2009 demographic study of 232 countries and territories reported that 23% of the global population or 1.57 billion people are Muslims.

Seeker ji

There are over 50 plus muslim countries.Could you please tell us how many og them


1) Are truly secular societies

2)Allow muslims to leave islam

3)Allow Muslim women to marry non muslim men?

4) Allow full freedom to non muslim religions

As far terrorist part is concerned ,No doubt they are in minority ,but it is the majority that is giving birth to them by sanctioning and voting for islamic parties.Look at Kashmir , any economist will tell that an average Kashmiri will be much more prosperous with India rather than pakistan ,but what are kashmiri's saying? They are saying that even if India will made roads of gold even then they will not call them self Indians.Why? Because India's is non muslim country,though Kashmiri muslims have no problem calling themselves
Pakistani even if Pakistan don't provide them two square of meals.

In the end I just want to say I don't want to bash Islam but on the other hand I don't even want to defend it by saying that an average muslim is innocent and only tiny minority.
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Re: Is Islam a Religion of Peace ?

Seeker ji

There are over 50 plus muslim countries.Could you please tell us how many og them


1) Are truly secular societies

2)Allow muslims to leave islam

3)Allow Muslim women to marry non muslim men?

4) Allow full freedom to non muslim religions

As far terrorist part is concerned ,
No doubt they are in minority ,but it is the majority that is giving birth to them by sanctioning and voting for islamic parties
.Look at Kashmir , any economist will tell that an average Kashmiri will be much more prosperous with India rather than pakistan ,but what are kashmiri's saying? They are saying that even if India will made roads of gold even then they will not call them self Indians.Why? Because India's is non muslim country,though Kashmiri muslims have no problem calling themselves
Pakistani even if Pakistan don't provide them two square of meals.

In the end I just want to say I don't want to bash Islam but on the other hand I don't even want to defend it by saying that an average muslim is innocent and only tiny minority.

I can't answer those questions....can you?

No doubt they are in minority ,but it is the majority that is giving birth to them by sanctioning and voting for islamic parties

Who voted for Al Qaeida?
Who voted for the Taliban?

In the end I just want to say I don't want to bash Islam but on the other hand I don't even want to defend it by saying that an average muslim is innocent and only tiny minority

So what is your final position then as I am confused by your statement??
 

kds1980

SPNer
I can't answer those questions....can you?

Which questions about the muslim countries? If I am not wrong with the exception of Turkey hardly any country allow these

Who voted for Al Qaeida?
Who voted for the Taliban?

People don't vote directly for terrorist organisations ,but in muslim countries they do prefer
to vote for islamic parties for implementation of islamic laws which indirectly give birth to people which are prone to terrorist activities

So what is your final position then as I am confused by your statement??

I just get surprised to see when i see so many people come up in defence of islam by saying that it is tiny minority that is involved the others have nothing to do with it.
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Which questions about the muslim countries? If I am not wrong with the exception of Turkey hardly any country allow these



People don't vote directly for terrorist organisations ,but in muslim countries they do prefer
to vote for islamic parties for implementation of islamic laws which indirectly give birth to people which are prone to terrorist activities



I just get surprised to see when i see so many people come up in defence of islam by saying that it is tiny minority that is involved the others have nothing to do with it.

Dear Kanwardeep Ji

You asked me:

Seeker ji

There are over 50 plus muslim countries.Could you please tell us how many og them


1) Are truly secular societies

2)Allow muslims to leave islam

3)Allow Muslim women to marry non muslim men?

4) Allow full freedom to non muslim religions
I admitted I don't know the answers. If you think you know the answers please provide some supporting evidence

islamic laws which indirectly give birth to people which are prone to terrorist activities
Taliban aside, I can't help thinking that is a sweeping generalisation but if you can give some examples of Islamic laws that have fed radical movements then that would be helpful

I just get surprised to see when i see so many people come up in defence of islam by saying that it is tiny minority that is involved the others have nothing to do with it.
Sorry, I still don't understand your position. What is surprising? Do you think the majority of 1.57 billion followers are contemplating making trouble for others in whatever form? A simple Yes or No would be a good start....
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
Everyone in the interests of clarity let me state my position as clearly as I can

I have said on this thread, and other threads that I am not a fan of Islam and certainly not a defender of the faith

But I am not afraid to say that what I will defend, unreservedly and unashamedly and consistently is the right of the majority of 1.57 billion people to follow that faith if it makes them happy and if their individual actions do not harm others

Personally, I don't think it's a progressive religion. There are all sorts of things I have issues with like Halal, the treatment of women, and some of the things that LionSingh Ji and Soldier Ji have already highlighted.

But it is not in my nature to tar all men, women and children with the same brush as the members of radical and extremist factions.

Terrorism is terrorism is terrorism

It is bad and needs to be dealt with irrespective of what group of people are the perpetrators

If anyone else wants to make a general comment about the 1.57 billion followers then I wish they would just come out and make a clear statement to that effect

LionSingh Ji said:
Never said I was aginst Muslims,
So what exactly is your position then?

Kanwardeep Singh Ji said:
In the end I just want to say I don't want to bash Islam but on the other hand I don't even want to defend it by saying that an average muslim is innocent and only tiny minority
So what exactly is your position then?

I think I've very clearly stated mine a number of times now

You are not obliged to agree with me

This is an open and democratic forum

But at least state a clear position please

Ok .....rant over back to study!
 

sunmukh

(Previously Himmat Singh)
SPNer
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam


Taliban aside, 1.57 billion is big numbers.....a lot of people....perhaps I am getting soft in my old age but I am inclined to thing the majority of them want to be and are happy to be Muslim...however, I have no way of proving it...but to go to the opposite extreme, I think it is fair to surmise the majority of them would not be jihadist or inclined to terrorism or extremism

Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist??

These are definitely very big numbers, but even if it was only two people who was are muslim (or sikh, hindu, buddhist, christian, jew or of any other faith) then because one behaves badly, it does not mean the other does so as well. This is the whole basis of justice in most courts of law, and even the law of karma. Sikhs tempted to stereotype all on basis of actions of some could try to see what these lines mean to them - is apoo aapnee referring to whole groups or individuals?:

chang-aa-ee-aa buri-aa-ee-aa vaachai Dharam hadoor.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the
Lord of Dharma.​

karmee aapo aapnee kay nayrhai kay door.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven
farther away.​
(Page: 8, Line: 12, Raag: Salok)


I wish I was an optimist, so I am more than happy to read posts of somebody who will show me the way to beome one. :happymunda:

Sat Sri Akal
 

sunmukh

(Previously Himmat Singh)
SPNer
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Kanwardeep Singh ji wrote:

Could you please tell us how many og them


1) Are truly secular societies

2)Allow muslims to leave islam

3)Allow Muslim women to marry non muslim men?

4) Allow full freedom to non muslim religions

Kanwardeep ji, I don't know answers to any of your questions but I know Sikh Rehat does seek to restrict marriage of daughters of Sikhs:

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh. (Article XVIII, b)

Sat Sri Akal
 

kds1980

SPNer
admitted I don't know the answers. If you think you know the answers please provide some supporting evidence

I have already answered the question may be there are 2-3 other small countries and if you need evidence just google it you can read religious laws of many muslim countries

Taliban aside, I can't help thinking that is a sweeping generalisation but if you can give some examples of Islamic laws that have fed radical movements then that would be helpful
Isn't Pakistan example of Radical movements because of moving towards fanatic islam
Pakistan was place of Guru's ,sufi's and what type of place it is now.Pakistan's founder wanted it to become secular but future leader started implementing islamic laws harshly and result is in front of us.
Sorry, I still don't understand your position. What is surprising? Do you think the majority of 1.57 billion followers are contemplating making trouble for others in whatever form? A simple Yes or No would be a good start....

My answer is Yes.By demanding implementation of sharia laws or not accepting birth control policies they do create problem.Just look at India muslims are officially 14% but unofficial figure state that they are between 15-20%.Do you think India will remain the same when their population reaches 30 or even 40% ,the answer is no
 

kds1980

SPNer
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Kanwardeep Singh ji wrote:



Kanwardeep ji, I don't know answers to any of your questions but I know Sikh Rehat does seek to restrict marriage of daughters of Sikhs:

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh. (Article XVIII, b)

Sat Sri Akal

I am discussing freedom in countries not what is written in each religion
 

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
I have already answered the question may be there are 2-3 other small countries and if you need evidence just google it you can read religious laws of many muslim countries


Isn't Pakistan example of Radical movements because of moving towards fanatic islam
Pakistan was place of Guru's ,sufi's and what type of place it is now.Pakistan's founder wanted it to become secular but future leader started implementing islamic laws harshly and result is in front of us.


My answer is Yes.By demanding implementation of sharia laws or not accepting birth control policies they do create problem.Just look at India muslims are officially 14% but unofficial figure state that they are between 15-20%.Do you think India will remain the same when their population reaches 30 or even 40% ,the answer is no

Dear Kanwardeep Ji

Thanks for stating your position in more detail

As you may have gathered I disagree strongly but that's fine

One point on the population thing though...another influential and very significant group politically and size-wise across the globe also preaches against birth control...i,e the Christian Roman Catholic Church.....perhaps you regard all of them as making a problem as well?
 
Top