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Is God Evil? Ramblings Of An Insomniac

Harry Haller

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Gurfateh

Lying in bed last night, I could not help but think of all the evil in the world. How does one become evil, is evil embedded in all of us, just waiting to appear?, My wife was attempting to watch Jaws, Alfie was snoring, and Dan was snug between us. What do you think of god and evil I asked,. my wife does not like the use of the word god, she finds it has abrahamic leanings, I also found out that she does not like the word evil either, abrahamism again!.

I tend to use the word consonance these days when I talk to my wife about the creator, as it is a term, she finds comfortable. I could see my wife was tired, so I said I would think on it and talk when I had thought it through, she smiled and turned the volume up, my wife does not think like I do, she just 'does', if that makes sense, I think and search, and end up at the same place where my wife already is.

Several hours later, the shark was dead, the tv off, everyone was asleep, the best I could manage was that evil is where you put your gratification above the comfort of another. It seemed to work with most 'evil' concepts I could think of,. so I woke my wife, my wife is completely used to being woken for one reason or another, headache she mumbled, no, no, i think i have the answer, and repeated my thoughts, she thought for a while, evil is an abrahamic concept, with a view of control, true evil that can be found in say Hitler, is more a mental illness, what you have discovered the meaning of, is the word bad, and turned over and fell asleep again.

So, if god is an abrahamic word, and it is the eternal true order of things that we hold in such high regard, surely truth is a concept of huge importance in combatting this bad/evil, I woke my wife again, she turned over and said, today I had to tell a man who had 2 weeks to live that we are doing everything we can to make sure he survives, and that he could have another 3 months, what do you propose I tell him in the name of truth, experience tells me that if I tell him the truth, he will lose the will to live, but if I lie,
he may survive long enough for his treatment to work. She fell back asleep.

This creative force, this consonance, life force, I am not sure the word god can describe it, but we believe that it is in everything and everywhere, so therefore it must be in all that is evil too, the rapists, the murderers and possibly morris dancers. When a rapist is in the action of rape, it is hard to believe the eternal one is present somewhere in this action, but he has to be!. Surely the act of rape is similar to the act of me stealing my wife's aloo prontha, because I want it, and I do not care about the consequences to her, just by a smaller degree,

If I were Khalsa, I would say that any action that I do, that puts my gratification above the comfort of a fellow living thing is taking me away from consonance, and in that moment, I have no bond with consonance, all I have is my gratification, which is a poor substitute, but I would only know that as Khalsa. So, to touch on a subject like drink, I may come home as Khalsa, have a drink, and spend the next 45 mins outside of consonace, later, I will realise how empty and unfulfilling that feeling was, and I will be not guilty, but sorry that for a whole 45 mins I was off the network, like a mobile phone with no connection, quite useless for making calls, but good for playing games, I may find myself trying to make up for that lost 45 mins, it is not a case of angering god, or needing to feel guilt, just a matter of a lost 45 mins in manmukh land, and the loss of that time that will hurt, so that, to me, clarified what I would call small evils

I have to concede that the timeless one, present in everything, everywhere, is also present in the most evil person, is present in the wicked and the bad, but in varying degrees, like a mobile phone signal, it is our connection that defines the degree of evil and badness we are capable of, and those that lose the connection? Maybe they are the ones that are the enemies that must be smitten, we all clearly have the ability to regain that connection, but if we push against consonance does it push back, is retribution part of consonance.

Is god present in the truly evil,and if he is, how do we deal with that
 

Randip Singh

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The Sikh explanation is simple on this. Onkaar, gives humans free will.

They can either embrace animal instints such as Kaam, Krodh, Moh , Lobh and Hankaar.

Or you can move to a higher level and control them. I call this a human level.

Extremly simple.

There is no room for good and evil, but rather being self willed or "God" willed.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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How does one become evil, is evil embedded in all of us, just waiting to appear?
They say take care of your minutes, the hours and days will take care of themselves. Evil is human predisposition and it becomes part of the person who has no control on oneself. One mistake, one slip can generally lead to a chain of events. But I wonder if I know what evil is? Is it a behavior? A quality? A disease?

I also found out that she does not like the word evil either, abrahamism again!.
Quiet makes sense. Abraham-ism 'divided' One Universe into two, sent God in heavenly skies and Satan to hell.

the best I could manage was that evil is where you put your gratification above the comfort of another. It seemed to work with most 'evil' concepts I could think of,. so I woke my wife, my wife is completely used to being woken for one reason or another, headache she mumbled, no, no, i think i have the answer, and repeated my thoughts, she thought for a while, evil is an abrahamic concept, with a view of control, true evil that can be found in say Hitler, is more a mental illness, what you have discovered the meaning of, is the word bad, and turned over and fell asleep again.
Quiet true.

When a rapist is in the action of rape, it is hard to believe the eternal one is present somewhere in this action, but he has to be!. Surely the act of rape is similar to the act of me stealing my wife's aloo prontha, because I want it, and I do not care about the consequences to her, just by a smaller degree.
I think the difference is there in the fact that the degree and number of consequences vary too.

If I were Khalsa, I would say that any action that I do, that puts my gratification above the comfort of a fellow living thing is taking me away from consonance, and in that moment, I have no bond with consonance, all I have is my gratification, which is a poor substitute, but I would only know that as Khalsa.
Perfect!

I have to concede that the timeless one, present in everything, everywhere, is also present in the most evil person, is present in the wicked and the bad, but in varying degrees, like a mobile phone signal, it is our connection that defines the degree of evil and badness we are capable of, and those that lose the connection? Maybe they are the ones that are the enemies that must be smitten, we all clearly have the ability to regain that connection, but if we push against consonance does it push back, is retribution part of consonance.

Is god present in the truly evil,and if he is, how do we deal with that
You will try calling that person (mobile phone :p) a lot many times, the call wouldn't go through. When it does, you can tell him to move to an area with better network reception. What he does is up to him.
 

Ishna

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If I were Khalsa, I would say that any action that I do, that puts my gratification above the comfort of a fellow living thing is taking me away from consonance, and in that moment, I have no bond with consonance, all I have is my gratification, which is a poor substitute, but I would only know that as Khalsa.
I'm not sure I totally agree with this one... because you run the risk of becoming a Jain! The act of breathing kills micro-organisms... by eating a carrot you take away it's comfort as a living thing... by warming yourself in winter you impact the environment... where did your computer come from? Your clothes? Is the coffee you drink fair trade? Do you know where the money you spend at department stores go? What about the petrol you put in your car?

It could be a never-ending cycle of self-sacrifice. I don't see that so much in Sikhi, but perhaps I'm missing something. The kind of lack of gratification you speak of, bhaji, makes me think of Mother Theresa and the Missionaries of Charity:

Members of the order designate their affiliation using the order's initials, "M.C." Member of the Congregation must adhere to the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and the fourth vow, to give "Wholehearted and Free service to the poorest of the poor".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionaries_of_Charity

I thought Sikhi was something of a middle-road but I'm very far from Gurbani this morning and I think I need to read up some more.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Those Orthodox Jains are quite insightful people and I am amazed by their devotion. Of course the covering of mouth saves flies/insects, not micro-organisms (they get through I guess!). They don't eat stuff like ginger or onion, not because it has some tamasic effects, but tamasic properties ie you take out ginger out of soil, its a root plant it dies. The whole idea to wait for the fruit to ripe and fall to ground, is simply brilliant. Fruits are juicy so that animals will eat them and throw away the seed, thus distributing the seedlings. The whole wonder of Nature is wonderful!

Take the case of computers, people generally buy one every 2 years. In India some times we resell it, mostly it goes to garbage. And do you know what happens to that garbage? You should know.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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You guys are so messed up. lollollolmundahugmundahugmundahug

I will write something to clarify things as to what creation does and what it expects, what man/woman individually do or human species as a collective does and how it matters, what rest of creation and life forms do and how it matters, the inter-actions within and without and the consonance impacts.

It will be ready in about couple of years japposatnamwaheguru: :mundabhangra: :singhbhangra: :mundaviolin: :singhbhangra: :mundabhangra: :tablakudi:.

Just kidding, I will write it down over the next few days.

If I see someone else writes it or eludes to it I will say so as soon as I read it. So far no one has from the posts I read.

I must be picking up some bad habits from this forum and some members and doing this tease :sippingcoffeemunda:

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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According to Wikipedia, the Jain food matches with đồ chay in Vietnam; shōjin ryōri ("devotion cuisine") in Japan; sachal eumsik ("temple food") in Korea. Maybe Buddhists were responsible for spreading it from India. Or maybe people in different countries got the same crazy idea!
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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I'm not sure I totally agree with this one... because you run the risk of becoming a Jain! The act of breathing kills micro-organisms... by eating a carrot you take away it's comfort as a living thing... by warming yourself in winter you impact the environment... where did your computer come from? Your clothes? Is the coffee you drink fair trade? Do you know where the money you spend at department stores go? What about the petrol you put in your car?

It could be a never-ending cycle of self-sacrifice. I don't see that so much in Sikhi, but perhaps I'm missing something. The kind of lack of gratification you speak of, bhaji, makes me think of Mother Theresa and the Missionaries of Charity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionaries_of_Charity

I thought Sikhi was something of a middle-road but I'm very far from Gurbani this morning and I think I need to read up some more.
Ishna Bhenji,

Well spotted!! It was not my intention to bring animals into this equation, so thanks to your vigilance and attention to detail, I will change this to

If I were Khalsa, I would say that any action that I do, that puts my gratification above the comfort of a fellow human being, is taking me away from consonance, and in that moment, I have no bond with consonance, all I have is my gratification, which is a poor substitute, but I would only know that as Khalsa.

I would cite examples as stealing aloo prontha, speeding, driving whilst drunk, playing loud music to the annoyance of others,

also, bhenji, the point I tried to make, rather badly in hindsight, was that we are all bad/evil in everything we do, it is impossible to live like Mother Teresa, even Mother Teresa didnt live like Mother Teresa! My view is that you do the best you can, and leave the rest to the creator

In future I think I will send you all my posts for review before I post them, as you have a canny habit of sorting out the chaff from the wheat, :singhbhangra::singhbhangra:
 

Ishna

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Brother, I hope I'm not appearing as overly critical or anything, I don't mean to be! Just putting my thoughts out there is all. I struggle to puzzle out lots of the same questions you do and I appreciate you asking them in the very informative and enjoyable ways that you do!

I love your statement

My view is that you do the best you can, and leave the rest to the creator
Very true!
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Bhenji,

The creators words appear in your postings through your hand, and shine brightly, which for me they do frequently, when I read what you write, this is not being critical, this is clarification and correction, and never stop!

I am extremely grateful to be corrected, as it also means I have learned something new

You used to have short message at the end of your postings, it seems to have vanished, I think you should put it back again :noticemunda:
 

Ambarsaria

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Harry Haller ji <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->let us look at the excerpted below from your post,

[/FONT]some comments below,
If I were Khalsa,

  • Creator/creation really does not care if you are Khalsa or not
I would say that any action that I do, that puts my gratification above the comfort of a fellow human being, is taking me away from consonance,



  • Creator just creates and does not watch. Creator/creation does have rules and limits which are ever changing in terms of consonance.<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->

  • So there are three aspects to living in consonance,
    • Living in consonance within and with yourself: This is the peace you have whereby if you are living in consonance with yourself, your outside is the same as your inside. That is an objective for Khalsa for sure but also of great value if you are going to achieve piece of mind, body and mind in synch, so on.

  • Creator and creation really does not care what you do here. You have been given options to choose from all moments in your life.
    • Stealing Alloo paratha fits here.

  • Living in consonance with others of same species: Creation and creator when introduces you into your species as a son or daughter for humans, it just equips you with basics tool set for survival and growth but provides you the embedded ability and flexibility to be as you want to be.

  • Creation and creator again are not deeply concerned if a species decides to destroy itself, become bad or becomes good.

  • Creator/creation does like the species to live to their fullest potential, any species that does so has great future in general.

  • Creator/creation does not create all good or all bad acts focused people at the time one is created.
    • Each however has the flexibility and potential to do more good or more bad acts.
    • Creator/creation really does not care for interactions within a species and members thereof. Creator/creation has embedded enough communal attributes for a species to manage its internal affairs.
    • Species can manage it so where what was bad at one time may be good at another time and vice versa.
    • Not only that, within groups in the species, good or bad may be different within different groups.
    • Conflict resolutions within species are not for the creator/creation to manage. The species needs to do so in its own wisdom and capabilities.
    • There will be instances where in spite of all this a species or groups within species may appear or disappear temporarily in observable and limited time horizons we humans (or a given species) know of and where we are.
    • Creator/creation which once created a species and groups within can always do so again at a place, planet or a star of its choosing. So in grand scheme of things we kind of matter some but not a whole lot.
    • Living in consonance with rest of creation: Now this is where the creator/creation has keen interest. When creator/creation creates a mosaic at a given moon, planet, star, galaxy, it has a global view of things as well as a local view. For example a local view of planet earth. So what is the creator/creation looking for,
        • Each species to live in consonance with others.
        • It is not a hard boundary but an ever changing one.
      • Minor violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
        • Diseases due to poor sanitation.
        • Diseases due to excessive use of antibiotics
        • Diseases due to animal farming and meat production poor conditions
        • Excessive use of chemicals in farming, etc.
        • There is a large list of such.

  • Major violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
    • Flooding due to deforestation
    • Flooding due to wrong dams located in wrong locations.
    • Segmented population decimation not respecting local forces like earth quake zones, living in areas subject to possible sunamis, living in areas prone to monsoon rain and associated flooding, etc.
      • Can we know all the dangers, the answer is no. But we can live better if we use what we know and as the knowledge grows.
      • There is a large list of such.

  • Catastrophic violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
    • Incurable diseases
      • For whatever reasons of eating habits, living habits, thinking habits, treating other species the wrong way, etc.<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
    • Global Warming
      • If our wisdom is right, and we forecast an ice age because of it, none should be surprised to see such affects over time
    • Many more items can be ascertained
    • There is also an external entity which may be difficult to ascertain or plan against,
      • Astroids hitting the earth
      • Etc.
      • However the creator/creation has the capacity to recreate if so choosen, many earths and many species including our own in places we have not thought of or will never think of.
This my dear friends Harry ji, Ishna ji, Sinner ji, and many other ji, is my view of, Living in Consonance
If above makes no sense I apologize and offer the following to enjoy in consonance,

‪The Doors - Riders on the Storm (original album version) - Music Video‬&rlm; - YouTube



‪musarrat nazir‬‏ - YouTube

‪Marvin Gaye "What's Going On / What's Happening Brother"‬&rlm; - YouTube



Sat Sri Akal.


PS: Fellow spners do visit the following section for some choice music to relax and contribute too.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/punjabi/

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Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Ambersariaji,

thank you kindly for taking, once again, so much trouble to assist in my enlightenment, for one person to give another the gift of his knowledge and understanding, summed up so neatly in the above is truly a great gift, and I thank you very much,

I apologise for for any embarrassment in my appreciation of this, but is going to be printed out and framed on my shop wall.!

I think the answer to the question 'is god evil' can only be answered by someone who believes in 'god'.

There is no evil, no sin, no punishment, no guilt, just creation and consonance, and dare I say it, common sense and understanding of the above

Ek Onkar cheerleader
 

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