Controversial Is Everything Under Hukam Of The Akaal Purakh ? Or Are These Just Laws Of Nature ?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Logical Sikh, Oct 5, 2018.

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  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    the order of the world is down to the world, not God, we make our own destiny, and we make the destiny of the world, my own view is that god is up there {censored} himself laughing, its the ultimate reality TV show, and he watches it whilst drinking celestial tea and biscuits
     
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  2. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    tbh, I Fully Agree, I think, for thousands of year, God must be looking at us and saying that, " i've given them {censored}s Oil and alot of treasure in the grounds, but these {censored}s are worshiping the ground instead of digging in it."
     
  3. Logical Sikh

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    ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ ॥ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

    How do you see this line of Page 6 ?
    Is it true that Only those people sings "GOD's" praise whom the "GOD' itself likes ?
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    I am not a scholar, or even a pleasure seeker, not any more, I live life with all its pleasure and its pain, and it all adds up to life, all of it, however, I will try my best to answer your question,

    first, taking one liners from the SGGS is in my consideration bad practice, it is akin to taking one line from a famous speech and dwelling on it and ignoring the rest of the speech, to do so to Kennedy or Luther King would take away the very essence of the speech. Also let us not forget that the translator has translated this in the style of the Christian Bible, and also put his own personal spin and understanding on it, but nevertheless




    सो दरु केहा सो घरु केहा जितु बहि सरब समाले ॥
    So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.
    Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?

    ਵਾਜੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
    वाजे नाद अनेक असंखा केते वावणहारे ॥
    vāje nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe vāvaṇhāre.
    The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, and countless musicians play on all sorts of instruments there.

    ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਨਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
    केते राग परी सिउ कहीअनि केते गावणहारे ॥
    Keṯe rāg parī si▫o kahī▫an keṯe gāvaṇhāre.
    So many Ragas, so many musicians singing there.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਹਨੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ
    गावहि तुहनो पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु गावै राजा धरमु दुआरे ॥
    Gāvahi ṯuhno pa▫uṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.
    The praanic wind, water and fire sing; the Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ
    गावहि चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणहि लिखि लिखि धरमु वीचारे ॥
    Gāvahi cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇėh likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram vīcẖāre.
    Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ
    गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥
    Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre.
    Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ
    गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥
    Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.
    Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ
    गावहि सिध समाधी अंदरि गावनि साध विचारे ॥
    Gāvahi siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan sāḏẖ vicẖāre.
    The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.

    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ
    गावनि जती सती संतोखी गावहि वीर करारे ॥
    Gāvan jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvahi vīr karāre.
    The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.

    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ
    गावनि पंडित पड़नि रखीसर जुगु जुगु वेदा नाले ॥
    Gāvan pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsar jug jug veḏā nāle.
    The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗਾ ਮਛ ਪਇਆਲੇ
    गावहि मोहणीआ मनु मोहनि सुरगा मछ पइआले ॥
    Gāvahi mohṇī▫ā man mohan surgā macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.
    The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.

    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ
    गावनि रतन उपाए तेरे अठसठि तीरथ नाले ॥
    Gāvan raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.
    The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ
    गावहि जोध महाबल सूरा गावहि खाणी चारे ॥
    Gāvahi joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvahi kẖāṇī cẖāre.
    The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਧਾਰੇ
    गावहि खंड मंडल वरभंडा करि करि रखे धारे ॥
    Gāvahi kẖand mandal varbẖandā kar kar rakẖe ḏẖāre.
    The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.

    ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ
    सेई तुधुनो गावहि जो तुधु भावनि रते तेरे भगत रसाले ॥
    Se▫ī ṯuḏẖuno gāvahi jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.
    They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.

    ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ
    होरि केते गावनि से मै चिति न आवनि नानकु किआ वीचारे ॥
    Hor keṯe gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā vīcẖāre.
    So many others sing, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I consider them all?

    ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ
    सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥
    So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.
    That True Lord is True, Forever True, and True is His Name.

    ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ
    है भी होसी जाइ न जासी रचना जिनि रचाई ॥
    Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.
    He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.

    ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ
    रंगी रंगी भाती करि करि जिनसी माइआ जिनि उपाई ॥
    Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.
    He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ
    करि करि वेखै कीता आपणा जिव तिस दी वडिआई ॥
    Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.
    Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.

    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ
    जो तिसु भावै सोई करसी हुकमु न करणा जाई ॥
    Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.
    He does whatever He pleases. No order can be issued to Him.


    taken as a whole, in my understanding, all roads lead to rome,

    the particular line you have quoted, intimates that those who find his will pleasing, ie, those who find that living a life of truth pleasing, sing, therefore, it is not about religion, worship, or even gods, it is merely a case of if you live by the truth, and find that pleasing, then you are one of those that sing, that accept the Creator as the ultimate truth.
     
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  5. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    Okay Agree.
     
  6. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    next question, This world is harsh place, and god knows that...... and as we believe there is no previous life and all....... therefore no karma of previous lives too........ THen in this Harsh World, Why do people born Disabled ? Without a leg, Too much weight, with a disease etc. etc. Do you see this as pre-planned ?

    Sorry im soo full of questions XD
     
  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    Could you believe in a God that sends people into this world disabled, without a leg, disease ridden, what sort of God would do that? what sort of God would answer a prayer for a better job, or to find a husband, or clear you of VAT fraud whilst watching children being gang raped in a war zone? So either God is some sort of {censored}ed up degenerate that gets his kicks from watching kids being {censored}ed, whilst giving the middle classes more mercedes benzes, or he has absolutely no hand in it whatsoever, over to you....
     
  8. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    Okay I get it, Just come at me with a lesser aggressive approach XD
     
  9. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    Then We can say that Guru Nanak wasn't send by GOD with all the knowledge already present in his mind when he was born. and he had a mind that just works thousand times better than a normal human mind, right ?
    Or do you Consider Guru Nanak as an exception ?

    sorry if i sound dumb...... just looking for some answers
     
  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    I do not consider Guru Nanak as sent by God, that does not work for me, that implies God has feelings and wishes to do something about the mess we call the world, Guru Nanak was a very enlightened man who realised that by shutting off maya, something else came to the forefront, and he pursued that line, and then wished to share it, in my view, we could all be Guru Nanaks, we could all attain that state, he shared as a brother or a sister would share, not taught as a teacher would.
     
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  11. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    okay, i agree.......... i guess
     
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    my aggression is directed at those that would pray and make deals with an entity whilst watching the world starve, apologies
     
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  13. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    One more question....... If everything is Upon us and God has no hands in anything whatsoever. Then how do you Define Prayer ? and WHY PRAY ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    personally I have a big problem with prayer, a massive problem with it, its lip service and nothing more, I talk to God all day, in my head, I am in communication 24/7, whether he can actually hear me is a different thing, but I have internal discussions about various topics, for instance, would Guru Nanak have a air freshener? that was a good one, would he prefer the stench of organic shit to false perfume? or what car would Guru Nanak have? or would he take a vitamin supplement?

    People pray for themselves, some blatantly for money, power, love, or for others, in the vain hope that a prayer will somehow stop God from saving raped orphans, and turn his attentions to more important things like Bunty having cancer, its nothing more than tugging the shirt sleeve of the celestial father, daddy I want this, daddy I want that, daddy, use your powers to do this, prove you love me, prove you care for me......

    I define prayer as utter blasphemy, of an attempt to disrupt the world that we have created and continue to create, and saying, please can you bend all the natural laws of physics and life, and make this happen, cos your a god, and that is what you do.

    Although there are some that say that God likes being worshiped and praised, well, the God that I call God does not need smoke blown up his {censored}, he has no inferiority complex, he does not have human emotions and needs, he just is.

    my opinion only
     
  15. Logical Sikh

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    Funny... but informative....... highly Agree....... I see your point of view.....
    Then How do you interpret the first half of this verse from So purakh :-
    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
    ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
    ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥
    ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
    ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥
    ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
    ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥
    ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 12}

    Do you believe in meeting something that Does not have any form, color, body, anything when we die ? and which is already out of our reach ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

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    Please quote the page and provide an english translation if possible, as not all who participate on this forum are punjabi speaking, this is page 378

    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ਦੁਪਦੇ
    आसा महला ५ दुपदे ॥
    Āsā mėhlā 5 ḏupḏe.
    Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Du-Padas:

    ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ
    भई परापति मानुख देहुरीआ ॥
    Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
    You have been blessed with this human body.

    ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ
    गोबिंद मिलण की इह तेरी बरीआ ॥
    Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
    This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

    ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਕਾਮ
    अवरि काज तेरै कितै न काम ॥
    Avar kāj ṯerai kiṯai na kām.
    Other efforts are of no use to you.

    ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
    मिलु साधसंगति भजु केवल नाम ॥१॥
    Mil sāḏẖsangaṯ bẖaj keval nām. ||1||
    Joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, vibrate and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||

    ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ
    सरंजामि लागु भवजल तरन कै ॥
    Saraʼnjām lāg bẖavjal ṯaran kai.
    Make the effort, and cross over the terrifying world ocean.

    ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    जनमु ब्रिथा जात रंगि माइआ कै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Janam baritha jāṯ rang mā▫i▫ā kai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    This human life is passing away in vain, in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||

    ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ
    जपु तपु संजमु धरमु न कमाइआ ॥
    Jap ṯap sanjam ḏẖaram na kamā▫i▫ā.
    I have not practiced meditation, penance, self-restraint or righteous living;

    ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ
    सेवा साध न जानिआ हरि राइआ ॥
    Sevā sāḏẖ na jāni▫ā har rā▫i▫ā.
    I have not served the Holy Saints, and I do not know the Lord, my King.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ
    कहु नानक हम नीच करमा ॥
    Kaho Nānak ham nīcẖ karammā.
    Says Nanak, my actions are vile and despicable;


    its all down to interpretation, translation and life experience, if your life experience is full of supernatural visitations and out of body visions, then you will see it differently to me, as I have had no supernatural experiences at all, or indeed any experience that I could not explain, apart from a transexual in amsterdam, but that is a different story, and I still can't explain it,

    I believe when your dead, your dead, no, you don't meet the great creator, no you don't get an audience, no, you don't sit by his right and he puts his hand on you and smiles, your dead, your nothing, your wormfood, thats it.

    To me, the shabad is about finding the Lord of the Universe, and the Lord of the Universe is you, stripped of all the crap and shit, the true you, its about finding yourself, who you are, underneath all the veils of maya,
     
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  17. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    Just on the point about prayer. I believe prayer is a process for ourselves, not for God's intervention. Prayer is a gardening tool for a person's mind/soul. I keep in mind this passage of Gurbani from ang 958:

    ਮਃ
    Mėhlā 5.
    Fifth Mehl:

    ਵਿਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਿ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾ ਕੈ ਦੁਖ
    viṇ ṯuḏẖ hor jė mangṇā sir ḏukẖā kai ḏukẖ.
    To ask for any other than You, Lord, is the most miserable of miseries.

    ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ
    Ḏėh nām sanṯokẖī▫ā uṯrai man kī bẖukẖ.
    Please bless me with Your Name, and make me content; may the hunger of my mind be satisfied.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਵਣੁ ਤਿਣੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਤਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਨੁਖ ॥੨॥
    Gur vaṇ ṯiṇ hari▫ā kīṯi▫ā Nānak ki▫ā manukẖ. ||2||
    The Guru has made the woods and meadows green again. O Nanak, is it any wonder that He blesses human beings as well? ||2||
    @Logical Sikh can I please emplore you to post the English translation or at very least an ang number so people like myself who don't know Gurmukhi can participate in the discussion, thank you :)


     
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  18. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    i apologise, ........ i'll keep that in mind from next time :)
     
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    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  19. Logical Sikh

    Logical Sikh Writer SPNer

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    I Agree with you everywhere man.... thanks for participating in the discussion..... :) i'll keep ringing whenever im stuck somewhere. ;-)
     
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  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller

    Panga Master

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    get a few scars and burn marks, then you probably won't need to ring..
     

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