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General Is Consciousness [atma] Produced By The Brain?

Apr 25, 2006
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To all your questions one simple reply; the energy that I have within me.
Parma it's good that you can feel the energy within you as one energy. I know what you mean. However to have a discussion we need to make distinctions between different types of energies.
 

chazSingh

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Reason relies on the Mind. Empirical Observation relies on the Senses. And God is beyond the mind and senses. In order to find God we must turn away from Mind and Senses. I think Sikhi bridges the gap from Mind and Senses and helps us turn away, if only for a moment, to experience God.

I agree with both you Chaz and Original.

Original you summed it all up in a few sentences. I think Consciousness surviving death is only available to experience, through meditation or rare events like NDE.

Would you guys like to share any experiences that are same/similar to "dieing whilst still being alive"?
in daily life...
being alive for so many is....making money...living the dream...i have this car now...what can i have next year? how can i reach the top...by what method...all energy is consumed in worldly pursuits....very little for spiritual matters.

so there comes a time...when you sit amongst your usual freinds/sangat...they are all talking about the above...and you feel quite dead to it....yes you need to earn and live...and also enjoy what Waheguru has created...but you are also being pulled away from this also...something else is requiring pursuit...the need to compete with people (ego) is dying, the need to want more and more (greed) is dying...the need to argue of silly matters is dying (anger) etc etc

so you can almost say this is dying whilst yet being alive...but out the other end....you are starting to really live...complete freedom is the result...i;m not there yet...but you can feel this.

through Meditation

where you realize "YOU...is not the BODY" ... body remains sat on the couch.... "you/consciousness/soul" is elswhere...is this 'elsewhere' in 'distance'? is this elsewhere in 'another dimension'? thats for you to find out...

but you can say you are dead, whilst yet alive...body no longer required...but you are still in being...you are still alive..

whilst in the body, if you move back and forth...you are alive in 2 dimensional space....if you jump up...you are now alive and aware of 3 dimensional space...during meditation, maybe your consciosness is not limited to these 3 dimensions, and another dimension opens up...

all very interesting...and i would say accessible to us all if we but put some of our time and effort into it...
 
Apr 12, 2007
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Parma it's good that you can feel the energy within you as one energy. I know what you mean. However to have a discussion we need to make distinctions between different types of energies.
Bhagat ji, just to finish off this topic from my point. To give you an analogy; if I gave you a glass of water and asked you to measure the length of the water not the glass, but the water itself; how would you achieve this? If I gave you a glass of water and asked you to measure the taste, of the water itself how would you achieve this? What value of measure would you use for its taste? If I asked you to measure the weight of the water without the glass you could achieve it, you could probably use some type of scale and I guess unique individualism act's as one, I could go on with different measures it's learning how to understand yourself. You are your own measure your deeds, your responses your morals, ethics. Your individuality itself is consciousness learning to understand yourself as the whole Guru Granth Sahib ji describes is a whole other measure. People spend too much time assessing others when really we need only assess ourselves. God bless.
 
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Original

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Bhagat ji, just to finish off this topic from my point. To give you an analogy; if I gave you a glass of water and asked you to measure the length of the water not the glass, but the water itself; how would you achieve this? If I gave you a glass of water and asked you to measure the taste, of the water itself how would you achieve this? What value of measure would you use for its taste? If I asked you to measure the weight of the water without the glass you could achieve it, you could probably use some type of scale and I guess unique individualism act's as one, I could go on with different measures it's learning how to understand yourself. You are your own measure your deeds, your responses your morals, ethics. Your individuality itself is consciousness learning to understand yourself as the whole Guru Granth Sahib ji describes is a whole other measure. People spend too much time assessing others when really we need only assess ourselves. God bless.

Gentlemen,

I think we could wrap this up neatly now ! Beautiful wisdom from both Chaz n Parma. And, quote from HH personal life journey, "We are all different, we all get what we need from Sikhi"- agree 100%.

As for Bhagat's inclination and desire to extract experiences of a particular kind in evaluating and better understanding of consciousness, I say, look no further than SGGSJ. For example, take Anand Sahib [917 SGGSJ] recited by Guru Amardas Ji, speaks volumes of the mystical experience. Of course, expressing it poetically is by no means a choice but a condition because experience of that kind operates outside the mind's domain [time n space]. And, Bhagat Kabir on page 340 SGGSJ supports it by explaining that no words could paint a picture because the "bliss" [anand] world is not a physical phenomenon but spiritual. Naturally, no such alphabet could possibly describe that which isn't matter.

Moving on to home-in on what I think has been a wonderful discussion is the fact that:

[A] - Time is finite [scientifically speaking] - read up Stephen Hawking [History of Time] but according to Sikh theology [Akal], it is infinite. Both are correct in so far subjectivity and objectivity a decisive factor and that the Big Bang [BB] theory stands. Sikhism however, has its own theological version and in a roundabout way comes to the same conclusion as that of BB in stipulating that certain knowledge [beginning n ending of universe] cannot be had. If I may add, creation and evolution are intertwined to give us [Sikh] the world view we have and it can all be found enshrined in SGGSJ. Guru Nanak went to length with the Sidhas and concluded that there are Axioms which cannot be entertained in finding answers to questions and that the investigative nature of the mind must be nipped in the bud for the ceseation of such questions. That is exactly what scientific theory is saying in explaining the state of pre - BB state, that it is "inconceivable ".

- Consciousness is infinite and I agree here wholly solely in defining it as "energy". More appropriately put, from a Sikh perspective as "atman" separated from "paratma". And, since it's energy, its Eternal because it can neither be created nor destroyed, but transformed, which is intrinsic to its nature.

The concept of "turiya" [samadhi] found in ancient Hindu literature speaks of the fourth state of being. This fourth state of being is what I've described above as being in a state of bliss [anand]. Gur Bani described by Baba Nanak as , "wow wow Gurbani Nirankar ha" [Bani is God] is to that end. Gur ghar directs the human soul to proceed [378 SGGSJ] to that fourth state of being by surpassing the three states of human consciousness to God consciousness.

Is consciousness produced by the brain ? Yes, insofar the three states [conscious, unconscious and sub-conscious] are in question. Neuroscience and Psychology [developmemtal, analytical and experimental] have probed the mind and the neural system to enormous depths in presenting detailed information to support that view. However, since the "paratma" [fourth state of being] is non-matter it falls outside the ambit of Science and hence the reason why Nanak's Sikhism is a religion and not a philosophy. That is to say, the belief in the immortality of the soul [Sikhism] is not exclusively confined to the mechinasim of the brain but independent of it.

Baba Nanak set out to show divine "Reality" ["satnam" ] that which was in the beginning and is today and will be tomorrow [karta purakh=energy], but due to the social conditions prevailing thereafter, his followers found themselves forced to abandon the non-violent teachings and to defend themselves effectively as a military community. That period has passed and like HH said there is something for every one at the house of Nanak, albeit physical or spiritual.

Bhagat, a beautiful parable springs to mind to illustrate Nanak's philosophy - with which I hope you can progress in finding meaning.

Once there was a shish [Sikh, disciple] who everyday on foot pilgrimed to a neighbouring village to give his guru freshly prepared langar. Often, upon arrival at his guru's Kutyia, he'd find him in samadhi, which ment he had to wait until the guru had finished his meditation and together thereafter reciting ardas, they'll eat. This continued for a long time and the shish began to question his own conscience whether he'd done the right thing in choosing this guru or whether he'll ever advance in spirituality and how much longer will he have to put up with this delivery of langar seva ? For the sole purpose of the initiation was advancement in spirituality. The guru was a learned sant who'd eavesdropped on his chela's sentiments and spoke thus, "ram das, kal tu langar leh ka na aye. Assi aap tuhada ghar ah ka shak lavan ga" [refrain from bringing langar over tomorrow, I'll come over myself]. Wow ! What a relief, sighed the shish. Anyway, the very next day the shish prepared langar early in the day and waited from dawn till dusk, but no guru showed up. The shish sat impatiently, worried and thinking that he may have sent out the wrong signal yesterday in thinking the way he did about the guru ? And then, a dog creeps into his courtyard walking towards the kitchen. He the shish rises instantly to his feet and chases the dog out. But this dog kept coming back and back. Finally, the shish beats the dog with a stick and chases it out of the house. And, notwithstanding any longer the waiting game for his guru he packs the langar and heads for the guru's kutyia. On arrival he sees his guru sat outside his kutyia crying. Alas ! "Why thee in tears O great one. There sat at I waited and waited and you did not come down to my house for langar ?" The shish dropped to his knees as he uttered those words.
"I did come to your house, 12 times, and you beat me with the stick and chased me out" replied the guru.
"How come I didn't see you ?" continued the shish "...for the only living thing that walked into my courtyard was a dog".
"That dog was me" answered the guru.
"but why as a dog ?" questioned the shish.
" to assess your spiritual progress in the realisation of energy transforming from one form to another. Clearly, you're not ready yet for otherwise you would've realised". Explained the guru

Says Nanak, it's all about realisation; first the self realisation [atman] followed by God realisation [paratma]. Surely, in everyone is that seed of sat which crystayises at the right time, for some today and others tomorrow. And, since Nanak's time is infinite [if you walk along a straight in this 2 dimensional flat earth you won't fall of the edge] and you will make it to the fourth dimension space-time - albeit - oneday ! Nanak says, believe me and, really it boils down to ones belief.

Many thanks for reading -
Waheguru Satnam


 

Ambarsaria

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Wonderful discourse and posts. Thank you all.

I will like to comment on three concepts:
  1. Atma (proverbial Soul) and Parmatma (proverbial creation, supreme soul, creator, the mosaic of creation, the truths that prevail in creation)
  2. Energy and consciousness
  3. Are souls perpetual or simply transformational or none of it
1. Atma (Soul) and Parmatma (Supreme Soul)

For me Atma/soul is simply an entity that develops in everything as the thing interacts with creation that surrounds. It is ever changing in time within all of us based on our actions, our living, our limitations as to ho we are created by creation mosaic. Soul simply is an entity that we experience through the interactions we have. Soul is what recognizes at the highest level in our existence how it is! The mind knowing of the soul's influence then takes the sensory inputs and helps us act. The mind and body do not always react as the soul would wish us to be and this is part of the practicalities of daily living. The conflict of how our soul wishes or guides versus ho we are and do can be a cause of great bliss, misery and everything in between. Since the variables that surround us are unfathomable, there is no perfection that is achievable or blowing our horn about. The best I believe that may be achievable is the consonance between our soul, our living and our consonance that will so prevail with everything that is around us. It is quite possible that this best may be simply be blissful but otherwise quite boring and no fun the way we are accustomed to or relate to life and fun. So be careful what you wish for. Sikhism guides us not towards perfection but wise ways of practical life taking all this into account.

2. Energy and Consciousness/Soul

Let us learn from our good friend Einestein. He so simply postulated E=m *c*c where m is mass and c is the velocity/speed of light. So the tack to somehow relate soul to Energy that cannot be destroyed is simply bogus based on our ever increasing human knowledge of creation. Energy is transforming matter all the time and getting absorbed in the process and matter is transforming into energy and transforming as well. Just linking soul to waves and energy is of no consequence. Soul is continuously transforming us and we are continuously evolving in our soul. The results are how we live, how we adapt to changing conditions, how we relate to outside or inside triggers as we adapt to changing environment that we are part of. So trying to characterize what form soul is (energy or matter or other) of little consequence in us understanding the being of a soul.

3. Souls and change

If one thinks of body and soul in the same term and as one, all becomes very simple. What happens to bodies. They get conceived, created, grow and die in human terms but actually are simply transforms of matter and energy. We so easily see our selves going up in smoke and turning to ashes. But what actually happens is a transformation of matter and energy which was a bundle of a human. After this transformation into smoke and ashes, we become part of the matter and energy pool and transform into a part of many things unknown, perhaps into un-calculatable physical entities. The soul is no different. In our living we influence all that we interact with and get influenced. Just as we cannot see how many different entities the matter part of us got embedded into simply we cannot see how many others we influence in legacy of our perceived soul. In quantities small or large we become part of innumerable others. Ask yourself, is part of Guru Nanak in you? Is part of your parents, neighbors, birds and the bees, the rivers, the dust and the wind in you? For me it all is in measures small or large. We may not recognize it as material bu {censored} really does not matter given that we recognize matter and energy are simply a transformationally different.

Just in case we try to save ourselves as we getting old and start believing that soul never dies, let us do a reality check. There is no whole in this universe as it is all transformational, so let us stop talking or thinking about a bad boy turning into a snake, and good girl turning into a fairy. We always are a part of and we will always be a part of!

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Original

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Wonderful discourse and posts. Thank you all.

I will like to comment on three concepts:
  1. Atma (proverbial Soul) and Parmatma (proverbial creation, supreme soul, creator, the mosaic of creation, the truths that prevail in creation)
  2. Energy and consciousness
  3. Are souls perpetual or simply transformational or none of it
1. Atma (Soul) and Parmatma (Supreme Soul)

For me Atma/soul is simply an entity that develops in everything as the thing interacts with creation that surrounds. It is ever changing in time within all of us based on our actions, our living, our limitations as to ho we are created by creation mosaic. Soul simply is an entity that we experience through the interactions we have. Soul is what recognizes at the highest level in our existence how it is! The mind knowing of the soul's influence then takes the sensory inputs and helps us act. The mind and body do not always react as the soul would wish us to be and this is part of the practicalities of daily living. The conflict of how our soul wishes or guides versus ho we are and do can be a cause of great bliss, misery and everything in between. Since the variables that surround us are unfathomable, there is no perfection that is achievable or blowing our horn about. The best I believe that may be achievable is the consonance between our soul, our living and our consonance that will so prevail with everything that is around us. It is quite possible that this best may be simply be blissful but otherwise quite boring and no fun the way we are accustomed to or relate to life and fun. So be careful what you wish for. Sikhism guides us not towards perfection but wise ways of practical life taking all this into account.

2. Energy and Consciousness/Soul

Let us learn from our good friend Einestein. He so simply postulated E=m *c*c where m is mass and c is the velocity/speed of light. So the tack to somehow relate soul to Energy that cannot be destroyed is simply bogus based on our ever increasing human knowledge of creation. Energy is transforming matter all the time and getting absorbed in the process and matter is transforming into energy and transforming as well. Just linking soul to waves and energy is of no consequence. Soul is continuously transforming us and we are continuously evolving in our soul. The results are how we live, how we adapt to changing conditions, how we relate to outside or inside triggers as we adapt to changing environment that we are part of. So trying to characterize what form soul is (energy or matter or other) of little consequence in us understanding the being of a soul.

3. Souls and change

If one thinks of body and soul in the same term and as one, all becomes very simple. What happens to bodies. They get conceived, created, grow and die in human terms but actually are simply transforms of matter and energy. We so easily see our selves going up in smoke and turning to ashes. But what actually happens is a transformation of matter and energy which was a bundle of a human. After this transformation into smoke and ashes, we become part of the matter and energy pool and transform into a part of many things unknown, perhaps into un-calculatable physical entities. The soul is no different. In our living we influence all that we interact with and get influenced. Just as we cannot see how many different entities the matter part of us got embedded into simply we cannot see how many others we influence in legacy of our perceived soul. In quantities small or large we become part of innumerable others. Ask yourself, is part of Guru Nanak in you? Is part of your parents, neighbors, birds and the bees, the rivers, the dust and the wind in you? For me it all is in measures small or large. We may not recognize it as material bu {censored} really does not matter given that we recognize matter and energy are simply a transformationally different.

Just in case we try to save ourselves as we getting old and start believing that soul never dies, let us do a reality check. There is no whole in this universe as it is all transformational, so let us stop talking or thinking about a bad boy turning into a snake, and good girl turning into a fairy. We always are a part of and we will always be a part of!

Sat Sri Akal.
Dear Sir

Beautifully written, enjoyed the read. However, your reasoning stands, insofar, we accept the Big bang [BB] theory, but, from a Sikh perspective with the idea of Akal [timeless] then I'm afraid it fails.

Sikhism offers both timeless [No BB] and the fourth state of consciousness [Turiya] albeit conditional. That is to say, it's matter of belief and not matter of knowledge.

Much obliged
 

Ambarsaria

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Dear Sir

Beautifully written, enjoyed the read. However, your reasoning stands, insofar, we accept the Big bang [BB] theory, but, from a Sikh perspective with the idea of Akal [timeless] then I'm afraid it fails.

Sikhism offers both timeless [No BB] and the fourth state of consciousness [Turiya] albeit conditional. That is to say, it's matter of belief and not matter of knowledge.

Much obliged
Original ji thanks for your post.

Original ji Sikhism is not contra science but does not believe in exhaustive science, i.e. discovering all the truth in creation and validating by proof. Sikhism teaches us to discover as much but only real belief that we need to be cognizance of is that not all can be known. So there will forever be more to learn, understand, discover and live there by.

Let us look at an analogy. Say each of our soul was a droplet of water in a parmatma/creation-creative ocean. We may say that each droplet is unique in itself but then again when it enters the ocean it becomes part of all, slowly the clouds develop and so will the droplet renew. Can we say that a droplet from the clouds has a unique and specific relationship with previously existing droplet, theoretically perhaps, in practice not. The droplet may have great humbleness and ocean great ego, who knows. In the creation at large in the universe perhaps neither is of any significant consequence.

Our egos, meism and so on gets us to somehow think that we are unique and shall so forever prevail. My opinion is that it will simply limit us in seeing the big or see more. It for sure is comforting, good preaching tool, and so on but I believe it is fraught with limitations of knowing rather than encompassing of greater knowledge.

We all for sure are unique in our own ways, but let us not forget we all come from and go back to the common, so how unique are we and what is the real value of uniqueness and thinking that such uniqueness is everlasting. My humble understanding is that our uniqueness is simply a fleeting moment in creation so vast.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Original ji thanks for your post.

Original ji Sikhism is not contra science but does not believe in exhaustive science, i.e. discovering all the truth in creation and validating by proof. Sikhism teaches us to discover as much but only real belief that we need to be cognizance of is that not all can be known. So there will forever be more to learn, understand, discover and live there by.

Let us look at an analogy. Say each of our soul was a droplet of water in a parmatma/creation-creative ocean. We may say that each droplet is unique in itself but then again when it enters the ocean it becomes part of all, slowly the clouds develop and so will the droplet renew. Can we say that a droplet from the clouds has a unique and specific relationship with previously existing droplet, theoretically perhaps, in practice not. The droplet may have great humbleness and ocean great ego, who knows. In the creation at large in the universe perhaps neither is of any significant consequence.

Our egos, meism and so on gets us to somehow think that we are unique and shall so forever prevail. My opinion is that it will simply limit us in seeing the big or see more. It for sure is comforting, good preaching tool, and so on but I believe it is fraught with limitations of knowing rather than encompassing of greater knowledge.

We all for sure are unique in our own ways, but let us not forget we all come from and go back to the common, so how unique are we and what is the real value of uniqueness and thinking that such uniqueness is everlasting. My humble understanding is that our uniqueness is simply a fleeting moment in creation so vast.

Sat Sri Akal.
Ambarsaria Ji,

Let me first say how impressed I am with your choice of name, "Ambarsaria" - sounds original - from the heart of Punjab.

Re consciousness etc.

In much of my debate n discussion, I often point out that by convention we have accepted [academically] for the existence of God cannot be "known" via empirical observation nor rational enquiry simply because the subject matter falls outside the realm of the two. And that, the truth sought within the framework of religious knowledge is best "understood" via intuition or revelation left to the faith of the individual. As such, Sikhism a faith, offers some examined metaphysical truths which can be either believed or refuted. The existence of the soul is one entity and I think you summed it up neatly when you said, "if one thinks of body and soul in the same term and as one, all becomes very simple". In other words [scientificall speaking], matter can be changed into energy and energy into matter. So in essence, they are the same thing in a different form. The point I made in my previous communication was to address the importance of accepting the existence of the soul from a faith perspective and that it is not "bogus" as you put it albeit "energy" flowing as a relative matter [GTR], but a metaphysical truth existing independently.
Sikhism is very much a science and offers accommodation to deserving individuals should they want to "experiment" Nanak's "truth" then they will have to "believe" Nanak's teachings and live accordingly.

Sikhism believes in the existence of the soul/God [atman/parmatma], Sikhism believes in the survival of the consciousness after the demise of the human. Taken together, they form the very basis upon which Sikhism as a system of belief stands. The same probed further [scientifically], matter n energy are inseparable and that, there are no particles [Quantum] but waves interacting with each other which we perceives as particles.

In conclusion, I accept your bogus synopsis of energy if we were treating the subject matter from the Big Bang theory perspective, but insofar, Sikhism honours Atman Parmatma "oneness" status, then Nanak's "Akal Purakh" [timeless creative energy] stands on all fours indefinitely.

Much obliged
 

Ambarsaria

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Original ji thanks for the complement on name. I lived my early life when Amritsar was heaven on earth way back and Punjab was more a state versus no more than a small colony of pollution, corruption and mistrusting air. Many of our weekends were spent playing hide and seek in Darbar Sahib after having parathas and cholay/chick peas bought from vendors just outside. Those were the days of getting on the second story and looking and listening to Kirtan below through the windows. Any ways too much has changed, mostly not for the better. Sorry for little off topic ramble.

Let us through SGGS focus on your following assertion where you state,

Sikhism believes in the existence of the soul/God [atman/parmatma], Sikhism believes in the survival of the consciousness after the demise of the human.
Original ji quote me a shabad that states or supports the italicised in blue. I will be happy to translate the shabad with my understanding for us to learn together.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Original

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Original ji thanks for the complement on name. I lived my early life when Amritsar was heaven on earth way back and Punjab was more a state versus no more than a small colony of pollution, corruption and mistrusting air. Many of our weekends were spent playing hide and seek in Darbar Sahib after having parathas and cholay/chick peas bought from vendors just outside. Those were the days of getting on the second story and looking and listening to Kirtan below through the windows. Any ways too much has changed, mostly not for the better. Sorry for little off topic ramble.

Let us through SGGS focus on your following assertion where you state,

Sikhism believes in the existence of the soul/God [atman/parmatma], Sikhism believes in the survival of the consciousness after the demise of the human.
Original ji quote me a shabad that states or supports the italicised in blue. I will be happy to translate the shabad with my understanding for us to learn together.

Sat Sri Akal.
Mera Pyara Veer Ji

Sikhism is our dharam and as such we "believe" without qualification. If you surf around SPN [humble request] and read some of my literature you'll find that I'm advocating a system of belief and not intellectual conversations per se. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not here to influence or persuade anyone but simply to share the wisdom of my forefathers. It is not about proving or disproving, but simply believing. To experience Nanak's Sikhism you simply surrender to the will of Waheguru. Of course, where interpretation of the verses within SGGSJ presents ambiguity or relative improbability with substance meaning, then yes, invite wider consultation but otherwise, Sikhi is straight forward. Guru Nanak's Nirankar lives beyond time n space and Guru Nanak invites us to experience it ourselves. To do that we must first divorce from empiricism and rationality but rely on intuition and revelation.

You made a valid observation in your earlier text when you said part of us is Nanak, plant, animal, etc.. you've captured the essence of the soul [consciousness] world beautifully. What you've said there is that Nanak is eternal albeit in part. And, that is exactly what Sikhism is all about - phases of transformation from one state of being to the next until you merge with the "one" - Ikonkar.

I have lot of time for you because your contribution in furthering Nanak's Sikhism is beyond measure. In view of that I'll attend to your humble request.

First n foremost, let us thank those who have made it possible for us to share and speak of our forefathers wisdom - Gurbani. Let us accept Waheguru unconditionally, remove the glasses of reason and enjoy the paradise found within the verses of saints, sages, philosophers and Gurus.

Bhagat Kabir on page 340 of SGGSJ nips it in the bud by declaring that the world of Nirankar cannot be communicated. Why? Because its beyond time n space and is non-matter. All modes of expression fall short of that paradise, for how can you communicate non-matter? So really, the subject matter comes to an end from an objective view point, but insofar, subjectivity, yes there is an exceptional experience [mystical, religious, sufi, ect..] for the individual's personal spiritual journey.

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

Further examples of the fourth state of being [consciousness] are as follows:

ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ p1123 SGGSJ

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਸਭ ਵਰਤੈ ਆਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆ [turiya] ਗੁਣੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੀ [p1260].

Mera pyara veer ji - enjoy it and share with family and friends and tell the world of Nanak's wisdom.

As for me - I'm a Sikh who enjoys fruitful discussions but not critical or western version of Sikhism. I do however, have an open mind and accept Sikhism Universal in its evolutionary framework, but to preserve beauty n authenticity I honour primal texts when the word was spoken and not written.

Brgds
 

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Mera Pyara Veer Ji

Sikhism is our dharam and as such we "believe" without qualification. If you surf around SPN [humble request] and read some of my literature you'll find that I'm advocating a system of belief and not intellectual conversations per se. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not here to influence or persuade anyone but simply to share the wisdom of my forefathers. It is not about proving or disproving, but simply believing. To experience Nanak's Sikhism you simply surrender to the will of Waheguru. Of course, where interpretation of the verses within SGGSJ presents ambiguity or relative improbability with substance meaning, then yes, invite wider consultation but otherwise, Sikhi is straight forward. Guru Nanak's Nirankar lives beyond time n space and Guru Nanak invites us to experience it ourselves. To do that we must first divorce from empiricism and rationality but rely on intuition and revelation.

You made a valid observation in your earlier text when you said part of us is Nanak, plant, animal, etc.. you've captured the essence of the soul [consciousness] world beautifully. What you've said there is that Nanak is eternal albeit in part. And, that is exactly what Sikhism is all about - phases of transformation from one state of being to the next until you merge with the "one" - Ikonkar.

I have lot of time for you because your contribution in furthering Nanak's Sikhism is beyond measure. In view of that I'll attend to your humble request.

First n foremost, let us thank those who have made it possible for us to share and speak of our forefathers wisdom - Gurbani. Let us accept Waheguru unconditionally, remove the glasses of reason and enjoy the paradise found within the verses of saints, sages, philosophers and Gurus.

Bhagat Kabir on page 340 of SGGSJ nips it in the bud by declaring that the world of Nirankar cannot be communicated. Why? Because its beyond time n space and is non-matter. All modes of expression fall short of that paradise, for how can you communicate non-matter? So really, the subject matter comes to an end from an objective view point, but insofar, subjectivity, yes there is an exceptional experience [mystical, religious, sufi, ect..] for the individual's personal spiritual journey.

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

Further examples of the fourth state of being [consciousness] are as follows:

ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ p1123 SGGSJ

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਸਭ ਵਰਤੈ ਆਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆ [turiya] ਗੁਣੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੀ [p1260].

Mera pyara veer ji - enjoy it and share with family and friends and tell the world of Nanak's wisdom.

As for me - I'm a Sikh who enjoys fruitful discussions but not critical or western version of Sikhism. I do however, have an open mind and accept Sikhism Universal in its evolutionary framework, but to preserve beauty n authenticity I honour primal texts when the word was spoken and not written.

Brgds
Thank you H !
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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Original ji it is great to dialog with you.

Let me be clear about myself. I do not pretend that I have the eyes that can see all the grandeur of creation/God/creator. Same goes for my ears, nose, touch taste sensory attributes. It is too vast and we may be so ill equipped to see all that to an outside observer at another galaxy, we may look like foolish and silly two legged {censored}s.

Conversely my take from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and our Guru ji is that I try to use my abilities and exploit the gifts that are bestowed upon me by the creator to use my senses for all I can. Through such use and in conjunction with my brain, I shall enrich my soul, my living and be in consonance with all that surrounds me as much as I can. Does it ensure that I have reached a state where I know all? Absolutely not. An example, may help here. I am sitting near an open flame and I have come to know that it can burn my flesh. It behooves on me that I do not touch it. Does it mean I know all about fire and how to protect myself? Absolutely not. Tomorrow a volcano may erupt under my butt and fire will absorb me. Examples in this line of thought are numerous. Should the Japanese have built nuclear station next to oceanfront with dangers of earthquakes and Tsunamis? From what they knew they could but did they know all. The answer is no.

So as human, and Sikhism teaches us to be in cognizance of all that is around us, get to know more and live accordingly in consonance with all. This might give us a chance at blissful living and give us the confidence that we have done all we can. However, it will never either imply that we know all or we have done the best. That is practical living that our Guru ji has taught me. So a Sikh shall never stop learning or doing better with every passing day.

Survival of the soul is irrelevant in all this. We do not control if it were to survive or continue as parts in many others through our interactions, influences, and so on. Creator has not given anyone any control in this regard. Depending upon how you define the soul much further can be conversed upon. For example if Parmatma (supreme soul) is universe complete consciousness and we are just a small tiny spec of it then when we link or de-link with it , it hardly is of any consequence or import to the Parmatma. Our egos inflated we may believe our soul is so important to Parmatma that it has to stay intact for ever, do we need to be that naive!

As far as I am concerned, our soul picks up specs of itself from universal consciousness (Parmatma) during our life times. During our life time and after death, we continuously replace specs of our souls in others as we absorb same way from others. In a way soul defined this way is a continuum in parts but not as a whole. You have embedded part of your soul in me, Guru Nanak Dev ji has done the same and so many others too including siblings and parents. So fascinating!

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Gentlemen, you belong to another era, you should be in the company of the Guru Sahibs, debating in front of Sikhs.

maybe in some ways you are!

reading such opposing roads leading to the same conclusion, in such eloquent a fashion, and instead of trying to win an argument, focusing on learning and sharing, is truly beautiful to behold,

thank you both for wonderful discourse
 

Original

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Jan 10, 2011
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Gentlemen, you belong to another era, you should be in the company of the Guru Sahibs, debating in front of Sikhs.

maybe in some ways you are!

reading such opposing roads leading to the same conclusion, in such eloquent a fashion, and instead of trying to win an argument, focusing on learning and sharing, is truly beautiful to behold,

thank you both for wonderful discourse
Brother H....

...you too is part of the bigger scheme of things. And, its not what one writes, but how often one writes. Your contribution in furthering "truth" [satnam] must be noted with value attached and indeed, that is the case.

Sikhi is a journey; like you once said, individually, we take from it what we want - how true! But the beautiful thing I see emerging from all this is [you, Chaz Ji, Tejwant Ji and Ambarsaria Ji, on and off others], the "sharing" of our ancestral wisdom in an accommodating and serene ambience. There is so much and God willing - truth shall come to surface.

Goodnight n Godbless
 

Original

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Ambarsaria said:
Original ji it is great to dialog with you.

Thank you! Likewise, it’s a pleasure to be conversing with you all.

I hope you’d allow me the liberty to rely upon some of the basic tenets of Sikhism [atman parmatma the separated soul from the supreme soul], purely as an exercise mode to move forward with what will in all eventualities is transcendental states of awareness.


Let me be clear about myself. I do not pretend that I have the eyes that can see all the grandeur of creation/God/creator. Same goes for my ears, nose, touch taste sensory attributes. It is too vast and we may be so ill equipped to see all that to an outside observer at another galaxy, we may look like foolish and silly two legged {censored}s.

You do have the eyes; look at page 8 of SGGSJ ਸੋਦਰ[liteal meaning door] ੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲ [where art thou O Lord? Where is thy door, thy tower, where thou sittith?] ੇ

Here Guru Nanak in the opening verses of Rehras yearns for Akal Purakh. [NOTE] Guru Nanak had already met Akal Purakh [mystical experience at Sultanpur Lodhi] and what he is trying to do here is make use of poetic form [like Jap Ji Sahib question n answer] to direct the separated soul for reunion. Guru Angand on page 139 uses similar style to redirect and explain methodically how all is possible. Guru Amardas on page 124 fully explains in no uncertain terms but very precisely the closure of the 9 doors of the body and the entrance through the 10 to the house of the Lord. Moreover, Guru Amardas Ji is really homing it in - ਸਚੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਚਾ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੀ ਸਾਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਏਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹੈ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਰਤਨਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੂਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਮਾਣਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ page 1346.
You have it, we all have it – question is one of realisation.


Conversely my take from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and our Guru ji is that I try to use my abilities and exploit the gifts that are bestowed upon me by the creator to use my senses for all I can. Through such use and in conjunction with my brain, I shall enrich my soul, my living and be in consonance with all that surrounds me as much as I can. Does it ensure that I have reached a state where I know all? Absolutely not. An example, may help here. I am sitting near an open flame and I have come to know that it can burn my flesh. It behooves on me that I do not touch it. Does it mean I know all about fire and how to protect myself? Absolutely not. Tomorrow a volcano may erupt under my butt and fire will absorb me. Examples in this line of thought are numerous. Should the Japanese have built nuclear station next to oceanfront with dangers of earthquakes and Tsunamis? From what they knew they could but did they know all. The answer is no.

Read page 12: ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥ – Here Guru Arjun bestows upon the individual seeker a directive to meet the Lord in this bodily frame. Guru Nanak gave a meaning to human life, his teachings gave a direction for the attainment of the ultimate goal of human birth. He went on to stress upon his contemporaries that human life is not aimless like that of other species but has a teleological destination [union with Akal Purakh].

It is not about knowing, but becoming. Knowledge is acquired through 5 senses and rationality, but where subject matter is “belief” such as Sikhism you rely upon intuition and revelation. Look what Leonardo da Vinci said –
"....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life. I now look at every thing that happen to me and ask myself, if this event were a metaphor in the poem of my life and what it might mean ?.....I assume that behind every development is something else, something meaningful, a hidden gift, that if received with grace and used with reverence, invites me a step higher on my journey".


So as human, and Sikhism teaches us to be in cognizance of all that is around us, get to know more and live accordingly in consonance with all. This might give us a chance at blissful living and give us the confidence that we have done all we can. However, it will never either imply that we know all or we have done the best. That is practical living that our Guru ji has taught me. So a Sikh shall never stop learning or doing better with every passing day.

Agree !

Guru Nanak suggests a way of connecting, only when the individual is ready, but its there should the seeker question.

ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਮੁਰਗਾਈ ਨੈ ਸਾਣੇ ॥ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੇpage 938

A Sikh has it all - should he want it, read page 1412 - jao tum kalen ka chao


Survival of the soul is irrelevant in all this. We do not control if it were to survive or continue as parts in many others through our interactions, influences, and so on. Creator has not given anyone any control in this regard. Depending upon how you define the soul much further can be conversed upon. For example if Parmatma (supreme soul) is universe complete consciousness and we are just a small tiny spec of it then when we link or de-link with it , it hardly is of any consequence or import to the Parmatma. Our egos inflated we may believe our soul is so important to Parmatma that it has to stay intact for ever, do we need to be that naive!

Survival of the soul is mega relevant! This is what sets Sikhism apart from other faiths and makes it distinctive and practical – God "is" - never gone anywhere, has always been here, and always will be [ad sach jugad sach] the secrets known as “philosopher’s stone” [read up on it – paras]. Where is Nanak now, where is Gobind now? Those energies are alive n kicking – within you n me waiting to be awakened, waiting to resurrect in spiritual [shabd] form and not in physical. Do you think sacrifices were made as courageous acts or keeping the moral compass aligned with belief and value? No, that little spec you speak of within the universal consciousness, that little bit of Nanak you speak about within part of your human constitution – that my dear is inviting you to dig deep into the wondrous ocean [SGGSJ] and realise the gift of eternity.

As far as I am concerned, our soul picks up specs of itself from universal consciousness (Parmatma) during our life times. During our life time and after death, we continuously replace specs of our souls in others as we absorb same way from others. In a way soul defined this way is a continuum in parts but not as a whole. You have embedded part of your soul in me, Guru Nanak Dev ji has done the same and so many others too including siblings and parents. So fascinating!

How this whole process works, I’ll try n explain [only if you permit as a means to an end] using all disciplines of art and science together with a strong sense of belief in the Guru’s word. Once upon a time we questioned the centre of the universe we don’t no more because we know we [individually] are the centre of the universe, on the premise that the universe is infinite and thus infinity stretches in all directions equally, therefore, wherever one is, is the centre. That is to say, micro macro – part of a whole, spec of stardust, that spec is you - [atmanparmatma] and the parmatma is waiting to be called upon SGGSJ.

I hope I haven't said anything out of context. Subject of belief is pretty sensitive and if I have erred please forgive me. Otherwise, know that the little spec in you, that little spec which transcends time n space is "nam" waiting to be heard [anhad shabd] and seen [anubhav parkash].

God bless you all

Take care
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
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London UK
Gentlemen, you belong to another era, you should be in the company of the Guru Sahibs, debating in front of Sikhs.

maybe in some ways you are!

reading such opposing roads leading to the same conclusion, in such eloquent a fashion, and instead of trying to win an argument, focusing on learning and sharing, is truly beautiful to behold,

thank you both for wonderful discourse
Brother H

I tried following your instructions for presentation purposes - no joy ! I'm sorry, I'm an average PC operator. I've always been a pen pusher.

Brgds
 
Apr 12, 2007
351
262
Gentlemen, you belong to another era, you should be in the company of the Guru Sahibs, debating in front of Sikhs.

maybe in some ways you are!

reading such opposing roads leading to the same conclusion, in such eloquent a fashion, and instead of trying to win an argument, focusing on learning and sharing, is truly beautiful to behold,

thank you both for wonderful discourse
What a wonderful notion!
 

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