Hard Talk Idols Of Sikh Gurus Being Sold In Market

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Aman Singh, Jan 13, 2016.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Well, I have news for you. There is nothing called Dasam Granth in Sikhi. And the only Ardaas is in Sukhmani which is chanted before the current one. This present version of Ardaas goes against the Gurmat ideals given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru.

    I keep on urging Sikh scholars to show me what particular Ardaas did our Gurus perform but have not gotten the answer yet.

    Come to think of it, as Ardaas is for self-contemplation, then all 1429 pages of the SGGS, our only Guru, is One Ardaas.
     
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  2. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Chetan Sharma,

    Guru Fateh.

    Welcome to the forum.

    In order to understand our visionary Guru's message, please study what ੴ means first and foremost. Once you have done that, then you would understand a bit of Sikhi and why worshipping idols or anything for that matter is a futile way of achieving anything for personal betterment. FYI, there is no worshipping in Sikhi because worshipping requires mechanical senseless rituals like the Aarti that Hindus do in front of their idols. Guru Nanak showed them the real way of Aarti sans idols.
    Are you familiar with this?

    ੧ in ੴ explains it all this. After you have done this, then I would urge you to study Bhagat Namdev and Bhagat Trilochan, both of whom were born 200 some years before Guru Nanak's Sikhi and their Shabads are in the SGGS, our only Guru.
     
  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    and I would like you to watch Monty Pythons Life of Brian, then we can continue our discussion..
     
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Hmmm. Actually not. Would you say the same for the Japanese and other cultures who bow to everyone?
    In the Indian culture, it is more than bowing. It is called Matha Tek- touching one's forehead on the feet of the worshipper as many had different gurus-teachers at that time. To the adults, one touches their feet with the tips of one's fingers or just bows.

    These are the customs in that culture with a much deeper philosophical meaning. Bowing, touching feet means that a person is ready to attain wisdom from one's parents and the other elders.

    Having said that, touching one's feet has become a pathetic "hierarchical right" of the feet owner.
     
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  5. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Do you even not accept Chandi di Vaar was written by Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji??
     
  6. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    I will try to but I want you too study on Tat Khalsa..
     
  7. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Good brother then show where in SGGS it is written that idols worship is prohibited..
     
  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Allow me to elaborate my answer rather than just yes or no.

    Guru Gobind Singh, who asked his dad to sacrifice himself so the Kashmiri Pundits could worship their deities in their way although he did not agree with that kind of worshipping, sacrificed his own 4 sons, created the Khalsa Panth, added his dad's Gurbani to the SGGS, our only Guru, did not add a single word of his own in the SGGS although being a prolific polyglot poet himself.

    Based on the above, whatever Guru Gobind Singh wrote shall remain a mystery as he wanted it to be and we are no one to second guess him.
     
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  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Firstly, prohibition is an external imposition whereas SGGS, our only Guru gives us the tools to develop inner manifestation.

    Please read my response in post#22. Thanks.
     
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  10. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Om —> ek onkar.. Aarti—> ardass..
    It’s one philosophy like your above one..

    Guru Sahib explain Akal purkh in first 9 pages of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.. better you read them again and again until get meaning of each and every word..

    Now come on second point in whole world Sikhism is practice in two form..
    1. Sikhism as Panth.. which says any Muslim, sanatam dharma, jews or any other religion person can follow this path to reach Akal purkh.. in this Akal purkh is Supreme god for Muslim it’s allah for sanatam dharma its lord shiva and like for other religion.. means you can follow path of Guru’s as disciple(sikh) and following your religion at same time like Hinduism..

    2. Sikhism as religion.. which says Sikhism is not Hinduism it’s like sanatam dharma or Islam.. in which Akal purkh is one who create everything.. he is not Allah of Muslim, he is not bhrama, Vishnu, mahesh of sanatam dharma.. and according to Sikhism as religion no one can follow Sikhism with sanatam dharma or Islam .. it is philosophy of tat khalsa..

    If you research on life on Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji you will find many disciples (sikhs ) of Guru Ji was following Islam or Sanatam dharma with Sikhism..

    My advice better read Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji twice once with keep in mind that Sikhism is panth.. in other turn Sikhism as religion.. which version your inner say is correct follow that one .

    One more thing as you mentioned in your post Hinduism as religion..I advice you to read more about Hinduism.. Hinduism isa panth in short way of living.. religion is sanatam dharma which you think is hindu religion
     
  11. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Brother reactify your thoughts.. at one time you are not admit authority of Chandi ki vaar which is in its full form on other hand you took one incident of Shri Guru Gobind Singh ji which is not written in authentic way..
    Why this double standards is it’s for supporting some agenda instead of learning pure teachings of Guru Sahiba ..
     
  12. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Guru sahib sacrifice his father , mother, sons even many of his disciples for what? To teach his disciples(sikhs) not to change religion and follow path of Sikhism.. It’s beyond imagination same Guru says to people leave your religion and accept Sikhism as religion (much hard talk but truth is Guru Sahib said to follow path of Sikhism to reach Akal purkh ( Akal purkh is same Supreme God which is Allah in Islam, Bhrama in Sanatam Dharma and other name in other religions ) Akal purkh is one but people call him with different names..
    I am one who follow both sanatam dharma and Sikhism at same time and you will find lots of people like me in Punjab.. some wear turbans and some are like me..
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Please elaborate with concrete examples from the SGGS, our only Guru, what you are trying to say. Thanks.

    Yes, I read the same in some of your posts. Let's do it better than that collectively. I have no idea what you are looking for in these 9 pages. Please choose one Shabad at a time, express your own understanding about it and then we can begin and continue in the same manner for all the 9 or 1429 pages, but let's take is one by one for our understanding.

    Please quote the relevant text about your claim so we can discuss it further. Your above comment looks quite nebulous.

    Pardon my ignorance, I have no idea what you are talking about. Would you be kind enough to put it in layman's terms please? Thanks


    OK, thanks.

    Ok, thanks again, especially for your advice. But I have studied it more than twice. As a matter of fact, I study it every day. What else would you suggest now?

    OK.
     
  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Pardon my ignorance again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to elaborate on it, please? Thanks
     
  15. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    I am fine with it if it makes you a better person in your life. I hope it is fine with you too.
     
  16. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    Chandi ki vaar is written by Tenth Guru, Shri Gobind Singh ji , in which he clearly written all Guru sahibs do Simran of bhagwati (chandi/ Durga).. we all know bhagwati Simran is idols worship.. at this your answer was no authority of it because it is not written in SGGS. but to say idol worship is prohibited you chose incident of Guru Gobind Singh ji life which is not written in SGGS and you still consider it as authentic.. it’s double standard..
     
  17. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    You can second guess and hence disrespect anyone you wish to. I refuse to do that. Thanks for your input though.
     
  18. Aman Singh

    Aman Singh Admin SPNer

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    Chetan ji,

    One wise man has said: Let us Walk the Talk!

    Mostly, your messages at SPN sound like you have no intention to learn from fellow member's wisdom... You are preaching your own preconceived notions just like an average self-proclaimed sant baba does in every nook and corner of the country...

    However, here at SPN, its all about: Learn, Unlearn, Relearn!

    We would request you to share your own understand based on Gurmat ie. SGGS. We know it is asking for a lot from you, as our own so called Sikh intellectuals, who have studied Gurmat all their lives, are often found wanted on the basic understanding of Gurmat values and principles. However, looking at from where you are coming from, we would insist on this integral aspect of this discussion forum.

    Simply put, any thought in any scripture, which contradicts the core values and principles enshrined in GGS, our Only Guru, is simply not Gurmat.
    Even if for a second we consider that DG was compiled by the tenth Guru, in Zafarnama, it is clearly attributed to Him having written: I am the Idol-Breaker! :thinkingmunda: Can you tell us, how the tenth Sikh master could contradict the same Guru, He himself gave the Gurgaddi for an eternity?

    So, our humble request, while discussing Gurmat, let us keep our focus on SGGS, our only Guru!

    Thank you
     
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  19. chetan sharma

    chetan sharma SPNer

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    I accept your advice.. we are here to talk on understanding of SGGS.. but did you and other persons here follow this ..
    Most of you guys said idols worship is prohibited in Sikhism but no one bring one point from SGGS which says idols worship is prohibited..

    Then all start putting points from unwritten unauthorised sources ..

    We are here to talk on understanding of SGGS when who bring Hinduism or Islam in it ..

    Third I was come here to revise learning of SGGS but when people talk under some agenda then we can’t expect pure knowledge..

    Agenda is simple tat khalsa.. just think why you guys don’t get support from Punjab because your views much away from pure teachings of Guru Sahibs ..

    Akal purkh will bring happiness for you and your family..
     
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  20. dalvindersingh grewal

    dalvindersingh grewal Writer Historian SPNer

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    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਿਆਦਾ
    ੪ (ਹ) ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਕਰ (ਤੁੱਲ) ਕਿਸੇ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਨੂੰ ਅਸਥਾਪਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਨਾ। ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਮੂਰਤੀਪੂਜਾ ਜਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ
    ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਕੋਈ ਰੀਤੀ ਜਾਂ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਨਾ ਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਅਨਮਤ ਦਾ ਤਿਉਹਾਰ ਮਨਾਇਆ ਜਾਵੇ।
    (ਕ) ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਪੰਘੂੜੇ ਦੇ ਪਾਵਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੁੱਠੀਆਂ ਭਰਨੀਆਂ, ਕੰਧਾਂ ਜਾਂ ਥੜ੍ਹਿਆਂ ’ਤੇ ਨੱਕ ਰਗੜਨਾ ਜਾਂ ਮੁੱਠੀਆਂ ਭਰਨੀਆਂ, ਮੰਜੀ
    ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੇਠਾਂ ਪਾਣੀ ਰੱਖਣਾ, ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਮੂਰਤੀਆਂ (ਬੁੱਤ) ਬਨਾਣੀਆਂ ਜਾਂ ਰੱਖਣੀਆਂ, ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਜਾਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਬਜੁਰਗਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਤਸਵੀਰਾਂ ਅੱਗੇ
    ਮੱਥੇ ਟੇਕਣੇ, ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਮਨਮੱਤ ਹਨ।
    ੨. ਗੁਰਮਤ ਰਹਿਣੀ
    ਜ਼ਾਤ-ਪਾਤ, ਛੂਤ-ਛਾਤ, ਜੰਤ੍ਰ-ਮੰਤ੍ਰ-ਤੰਤ੍ਰ, ਸ਼ਗਨ, ਤਿੱਥ, ਮਹੂਰਤ, ਗ੍ਰਹਿ, ਰਾਸ਼, ਸ਼ਰਾਧ, ਪਿੱਤਰ, ਖਿਆਹ, ਪਿੰਡ ਪੱਤਲ, ਦੀਵਾ, ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕਰਮ,
    ਹੋਮ, ਜੱਗ, ਤਰਪਣ, ਸਿਖਾ ਸੂਤ, ਭੱਦਣ, ਇਕਾਦਸ਼ੀ, ਪੂਰਨਮਾਸ਼ੀ ਆਦਿ ਦੇ ਵਰਤ, ਤਿਲਕ, ਜੰਞੂ, ਤੁਲਸੀ, ਮਾਲਾ, ਗੋਰ, ਮੱਠ, ਮੜ੍ਹੀ, ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਾ
    ਆਦਿ ਭਰਮ-ਰੂਪ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਨਿਸਚਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਨਾ। ਗੁਰ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਨ-ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾਂ ਧਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੰਨਣਾ। ਪੀਰ,
    ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ, ਪੁੱਛਣਾ, ਸੁੱਖਣਾ, ਸ਼ੀਰਨੀ, ਵੇਦ ਸ਼ਾਸਤਰ, ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ, ਗੀਤਾ, ਕੁਰਾਨ, ਅੰਜੀਲ ਆਦਿ ਉਤੇ ਨਿਸ਼ਚਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਨਾ। ਹਾਂ ਆਮ ਵਾਕਫੀ ਲਈ
    ਅਨਮਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਾ ਯੋਗ ਹੈ।

    Dr Dalvinder Singh Grewal
     
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