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Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Canada da Jatt, Mar 7, 2006.
I’m not quite sure I follow your train of thought as to which part of the information on that link was ignorant to religion?
Some were in need of a greater understanding of the rudiments of English, and also its rich heritage of descriptive adjectives.
But the issue they were getting worked up about was the right to carry a Knife.
Here is one of the QUOTES:
“It's just like making it "seasons greetings" instead of "merry Christmas". Someone decided they wanted it their way, and they got it because they are a minority.
I'm all for giving other cultures a SMALL amount of wiggle room, but in the end...you could live somewhere else. I'm sure they let the kids have daggers where Sikh is the primary religion. Here in Canada, it is not...live with it. Moving to Canada was obviously a positive move for them or they wouldn't be here...why will they never understand there is no PERFECT country.
Minorities wanting special rights piss me off...I don't get any.”
I think he meant to say: “When in Rome.....”
But basically he is right, the world is a dangerous place and we are seeing general violence and murder committed by every section of the community, young and old.
How long before we hear a Muslim say that their suicide bomb belt is a religious adornment and they should be allowed to wear them?
No I don’t believe a Sikh or anyone should have special dispensation to walk around with a knife.
Now obviously I respect your opinion.
However you are blatantly ignorant for associating the Sikh KIRPAN which is one of the 5K's of the Sikh faith with a Muslim's suicide bomb belt.
Not to mention that was clearly a racist generalization. Excuse me? They say wisdom comes with age, or does it?
First of, you have made a good point up till you inappropriately said that. It simply makes me wonder the irony of you being in a Sikh forum and at the same time posting a racial and ignorant remark(s) regarding Sikhs. Inadvertently disgusting.
And still, I would like to assume that you are in SPN because you are interested in Sikhi - whether or not you show it.
Yeah I have to say that I agree with xishveirx John, and I am supprised at your word, given the generaly understanding nature of your previous posts. Heh got out of bed on the wrong side huh!?
The nature and tone of the post was discriminatory at the very least, when the poster says thing like
'Minorities wanting special rights piss me off...I don't get any'
It is the normal racist rheotoric that I have seen for many years, what he means is why should they get treated differantly from me, enjoy extra privaleges.
The real problem then is to get the message across that minoriteis do not want to be treated differantly but be given the same chances. If a Christian can wear a cruicfix to school, and a Mulsim girl can cover her head at school then not alowing a Sikh boy to carry any one of the 5K's is treating them differantly.
This is called discrimination, and the issue is not about carrying knives to school but a misunderstanding on what the kirpan is, and means.
The only problem with this thread that I can actualy agree with, is one that ironicaly was not raised.
The 5k's are a requirment for baptised Sikhs, the Khalsa, only the Khalsa are told that they must wear them, all other Sikhs should strive to become khalsa. However I don't know even one 12 yeard old Sikh that has been baptised, so I guess really, all Sikhs up in arms about this, need to have a rethink.
I’m sorry but did any of you actually read what I said?
That part of my post that has got you all hot under the collar was a quote I posted was from the link that Canada Da Jatt posted and not what I said!
The point about the Muslim Suicide bomber is a point that you all should understand, in that to emphasise one extreme you need the reflection of another.
Now all religions believe they are the right one, Sikhism is no different in this respect, you believe you are correct and therefore claiming your right to wear the Kirpan is part of the correct religion.
The point you have missed is not some religious belief being curtailed but a dangerous weapon being banned.
This is the part I bought to the discussion: “No I don’t believe a Sikh or anyone should have special dispensation to walk around with a knife.”
Being a non Sikh himslef in past,Das could appriciate teh concern by Respected Sir John.
In fact while we trevel in Aircraft we do remove our Kirpan and wear a bit smaller symbolic one.
In case of Canada yoound children are not givne big Kirpan but bit harmless or thy will hurt them selves.
yes it could be part of Psudo Islam to use Bomb Belt.
But as Far as our code is concerned Kirpan means Kirpa(mercy) Pan(Hand).
Only to be used in prote4ction and not as offence.Even one Sikhs cut thier hand with same Kirpan if brought out without any purpose.
Only person whith such disciplien is allowed to undergo baptism to keep such Kirpan.
In facts Sikhs do know unamrmed Combat they do not need to Kirpan to preotect themsleves but to protect others.
In nPast one Sikhs single handedly with one Kirpan did made mob of 500 Humderd so called Muslim rioters run for life.
Guru said,When all others means fail then it is just to touch Kirpan.
Das had many frineds who were also concerened after Das wore the same Kirpan but conduct of Das removed thier misunderstandings.
So chance can be given but threat of Anti Sikh or Fake Sikh misusing can be there still and best way for that could be giving a sort of License after verfication from concerned religeous authrorities as Nihungs do here in India.
Another way in India is by law to allow Kirpan with spefici size at various locations but in genral they are allowed to have it as big as they want and so far not much misuse has been reported.
Das does not find comments of Sir John as racial.But we need to let him understand the thing properly.As we are True Folower of Islam(surrender top the will of God).
Heh John Man calm down I know what wrods where yours and which where not. Please re-read my post and see. That is why I said:
'when the poster says thing like'
Instead of calling you on it, I thought that it was quite clear I meant the original poster.
I was pointing out two things:
1) The racist tone of this poster
2) The misunderstanding on what a Kirpan is and what it means to a Sikh.
Once again John, the issue is not about taking a weapon into school, you and I both know that a Sikh would not pull his kirpan out to stab somebody, and we all know that in reality most Sikhs wear their kirpans out of sight. The issue is not about taking a knife to school, the kirpan is not a weapon, it is an article of faith.
The issue is about Sikhs being treated the same as everybody else. If a muslim, or a Christian can carry articles of faith in school, then to not allow a Sikh the same right IS DISCRIMINATION. There are no ifs, and buts on this point. If you treat somebody differant for their faith, or their sex, or their age, or their skin colour, or their sexulality then you are discriminating against them.
Ah in truth the pen mightier than the sword! Sorry dear friends, sometimes my typing finger has a mind of its own, and before I realise, it has written caustic words! Bloody finger.
As social cohesion depends on all of us living under both moral and legal obligations and may mean that for the greater good our personal rights have to be modified or in some instances surrendered.
Now in Britain in particular we have one of the most diverse societies with peoples from all over the world and from many faiths. All are in these faiths because they believe that these are the truth!
Just because our particular faith states that a certain act or adornment is sacrosanct should we then take the view that says “sod other peoples feelings I will never compromise”!
If this is to be the case then only mayhem will be the order of the day in countries where multicultural societies exist.
At Manchester airport last year a Sikh caused mayhem due to trying to board a flight with this religious adornment.
If they make it law that Sikhs are given special dispensation and they alone are allowed to carry knives what do you honestly think will be the outcome?
What would stop an individual claiming to be a Sikh for the sole purpose of getting a weapon on a flight?
Where does it stop?
The issue is not would a Sikh use this to inflict harm on anyone, but this then becomes a precedent that will prevent needed legislation in the total banning of knives.
NB: Please nobody use the accusation of racism, as this has to be the last throw of the dice in a reply with no substance.
You do have a very good point when you say:
'The issue is not would a Sikh use this to inflict harm on anyone, but this then becomes a precedent that will prevent needed legislation in the total banning of knives.'
Again though I think the major point is the misunderstanding of Kirpan, you keep calling it a knife. I agree we should not just let people carry knifes around willy nilly, I understand also how the rest of society may see it.
However every time we call a kirpan a knife, then we reinforce this idea that Sikhs are allowed to carry knifes.
It is not a knife, it is a kirpan, an article of faith that our Guru has told us to carry if we are Khalsa(pure)
What is needed is not the abolishment of Sikhs carrying kirpan, but the education of what it is and what it means.
We in the west find it hard to understand why any Muslim woman would choose to cover up, and many of us see it degrading to the women. However Muslim women do cover up, and they do it for religious reasons. So we may not totaly understand the reasons but we must respect their choice and garentee their freedom of choice.
A Sikhs kipan is no differant from this. Some may see it as a knife and be worried that it may be used as such. Some may not understand why the Khalsa need to carry it, but we must respect their choice, and garentee thier freedom of choice.
I have to ask though, John, you say that we need to totaly ban the carrying of knifes, I ask why you feel we should have laws for this?
I ask this because you say:
'As social cohesion depends on all of us living under both moral and legal obligations and may mean that for the greater good our personal rights have to be modified or in some instances surrendered'
And I wish for you think about how one persons concept of what is moral will differ from anothers. So then the real question becomes two fold, whos moral compass do we use, and have we the right to force a moral concept on those that may not share it?
Banning knifes, would not bring down the incidents of crime, or killings, or injuries, the people that would do this sort of thing will carry on, but use something other than a knife.
Would laws against knifes not then force the criminal to take up guns instead?
Nothing in this life is black and white, and I can see no good of trying to stamp on anybodies religious freedom, this only cause a them and us mentality.
Dear Lee and friends, xishveirx asked what am I doing on a Sikh discussion forum when I am not a Sikh and may post comments that offend?
First I must say that when I post I don’t intentionally go out of my way to offend the Sikh community, and secondly please think about the value of a discussion forum that only allowed sycophantic ego massaging platitudes.
So what I say now is not racist, not intended to be offensive but is simply the product of one individual’s subjective view of this Kirpan/Knife subject.
The argument of the terminology or the name given to this object I think is just semantics and a Kirpan plunged into your chest will feel very much the same as a knife!
This I got of off the net:... length: 13 1/8" - blade: 9 1/8" -blade width: 1 1/8" base -grip: 3 1/2"
-guard: 3 1/2" -weight: 10 oz
Now slightly off key but as an observation: All religions appear to me to have some strange need for symbolism and an outward statement of their particular way of belief in God.
Without me detailing them I am sure you will all be able to picture the symbols of belief for each religious group.
Each of those groups will argue and defend that their symbol carries real meaning and that the other ones while tolerated are just empty outward shows.
To me I cannot bring myself to believe that the great creator of this outstanding Universe has the need for those that believe in him/her to have these very outward displays! Belief, faith and obedience to this creator must transcend mere symbols.
Outward symbols are a very mankind thing and stem back into antiquity.
Although I am against the thought of some caveat on the banning of knives that allows the Kirpan, I am sad that it affects the Sikhs right in this matter especially as so many Sikhs paid the ultimate price in the defence of the freedoms we enjoy today.
We are though I believe living in far different times and especially here in the West have a breakdown in law and order and the threat of outrageous terrorism.
I am about to fly long haul to Taiwan, if a Group of Sikhs were to board the plane with their Knives err sorry Kirpans I would not feel any apprehension if I knew that they were indeed Sikhs, indeed I would probably think bloody good job as they would be the first to sort out any terrorists.
But my argument here is dangerous world and different times, we need to think a compromise.
I have no hesitation in saying that I enjoy reading your posts John. A request to xishveirx ji not to write something like what John is doing here. For me, diversity is an asset to the forum, where we get different point of views. I want to write more about this.. may be some other time.
Enjoy your visit
I might have made a blunt statement and probably wrong reference to John's credibility. Therefore, I would like to apologize for questioning john's being here in this forum.
Dear friend don’t worry, at times those of advanced years put their foot in their mouth I know I do it on a regular basis.
As I have stated before I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum, as I was at one time a fanatical tunnelled vision evangelical Christian who believed that only my way of belief was the road to God.
After becoming free of this myopic view I searched and am still searching for that truth, on the way I have met the same mindset that I had among all religions, and this tends to bring the tiger out in me.
However it was a real lifeline coming across this forum, here I have found a people that although have their very own and personal faith still have time to consider that others too are of value.
Peace to you, continue in the Sikh faith and prove loyal to the tenets of humanity within its teachings. Also remember it’s a big world with over six billion souls.