Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Visitor]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Where are you from? I ask because I speak as an Australian. I am lucky in that I suppose, Australia is very multicultural. In fact, what is an Australian? We are from so many different cultural backgrounds that our culture is mixed in many ways. I know that my family has found it very difficult to accept that my partner finds it hard to introduce me to his friends and family. For them I was bought well, had an exceptional education and come from a family that is well respected. The idea that I am not Indian is crazy. Am I making sense here? If you live in India, I suspect from what my partner has told me, that it is very different. Mixing caste and race is still somewhat new. I recall my Grandmother telling me that she was married to an Indian man. She was from England when she met him and she was rejected from her family. She married him and moved to Africa before moving to Australia with my mother and uncle. They never met their family from either India or England. We know very little about this time as my Grandmother refuses to talk about it and my mother does not recall very much. I think that it is such a horrible situation. Not only has this situation denied us knowing our heritage but it has cut apart family. I dont tell you this to scare you. But somehow, these fears are in us all. You are not alone, but you need to act in a way that is best for you and your family.

If what you say above is the absolute way it will be, you need to make a very serious choice. If that choice is your partner, you may need to give time to your parents rather then your partner. You knw what is best for you!

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Where are you from? I ask because I speak as an Australian. I am lucky in that I suppose, Australia is very multicultural. In fact, what is an Australian? We are from so many different cultural backgrounds that our culture is mixed in many ways. I know that my family has found it very difficult to accept that my partner finds it hard to introduce me to his friends and family. For them I was bought well, had an exceptional education and come from a family that is well respected. The idea that I am not Indian is crazy. Am I making sense here? If you live in India, I suspect from what my partner has told me, that it is very different. Mixing caste and race is still somewhat new. I recall my Grandmother telling me that she was married to an Indian man. She was from England when she met him and she was rejected from her family. She married him and moved to Africa before moving to Australia with my mother and uncle. They never met their family from either India or England. We know very little about this time as my Grandmother refuses to talk about it and my mother does not recall very much. I think that it is such a horrible situation. Not only has this situation denied us knowing our heritage but it has cut apart family. I dont tell you this to scare you. But somehow, these fears are in us all. You are not alone, but you need to act in a way that is best for you and your family.

If what you say above is the absolute way it will be, you need to make a very serious choice. If that choice is your partner, you may need to give time to your parents rather then your partner. You knw what is best for you!

I am from the United Kingdom...you would think that we werent so backwards with our thinking but we are.
ermmm as for decisions its not mine to make anymore. My partner has made the choice for us. He doesn't want to fight for it anymore. All i can do is respect that and try to get on with things.

 

[Visitor]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

That is true! Hold tight and know that whatever happens it is what is for the best. God has somethng else for you! Smile Kiran ji and enjoy each day of life - dont waste it being sad or upset with your folks.

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I hope so.

It's hard not to feel upset with them. Everytime I look at them I am reminded of what they have forced me to do, what they forced me to lose. Don't get me wrong I am trying not to feel like that but I can't help it. The second they found out about his caste they were against the idea and that alone is wrong. It clouded their judgement of him and that was wrong. My dad made someone half his age feel worthless and he doesn't care about it. What if someone did that to my brother...how would he feel then?

My massi even agrees with me...she thinks they have done wrong and she says that in due time they will realise what they have done. But what if it is too late by then?

Right now I hate being Indian and I can't believe that our Gurus fought so hard to abolish something like the caste system only for people to claim they are Sikh and still carry it on. It's ridiculous. As far as I am concerned you can either follow Sikhism and call yourself a Sikh or you can believe in caste-you can't do both.

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Please don't mind Kiran but your partner too has given up so easily.As I said you are quite young so I assume that your Partner is also young too.Then why He don't want't to fight?

I still beleive both of you should keep on trying convincing your parents.

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Please don't mind Kiran but your partner too has given up so easily.As I said you are quite young so I assume that your Partner is also young too.Then why He don't want't to fight?

I still beleive both of you should keep on trying convincing your parents.

Hey kds1980

I don't mind you saying that at all. Part of me believes the same. But at the same time (and i don't mean to sound rude when I say this) but only me and him know our situation properly and know what my parents have been like.

It's not that he doesn't want to fight but more that he can't see it happening for me and him. My parents have said they can't stop me marrying him but they don't want anything to do with it. He is a very family orientated person and he doesn't want me to lose my family over this.

I would keep fighting but I can't do it on my own- I need him to be fighting with me :-(

 

[pk70]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Quote "It's not that he doesn't want to fight but more that he can't see it happening for me and him. My parents have said they can't stop me marrying him but they don't want anything to do with it. He is a very family orientated person and he doesn't want me to lose my family over this.

I would keep fighting but I can't do it on my own- I need him to be fighting with me"

Kiran Ji

In England, I am aware of a couple who apposed their sons' marriage since it was not as per their choice, son had to move out. Then they married of their daughter as she wanted to be better in their eyes unlike her brother. She got divorce just after one year; however, their son and daughter in law are living nicely with their children even though the parents never went there to see grand sons due to their ego thing. Does this story sounds familiar?
If he loves you as you do, ask him if only for one reason he is giving up, it shows weakness; if he wants time, may be he is over loaded with various things, so let him be alone for some time. Keep in touch but never ever feel depressed because by doing so you are doing nothing but hurting yourself and weakening your emotional set up. Being so young , both of you have a lot of time. How it is felt only those can realize who are/ have been in love but still fact remains that getting into cursing yours self is not healthy. Also keep intact faith in GOD, and learn from what happened. I like all about you save for your being too negative about yourself. Stay strong, only deep faith in HIM can change your behavior. Thanks for hearing me on this subject.
With best wishes !

 

[KulwantK]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Sat Nam and Happy Greetings to all- I am trusting this find everyone well and good!
Marriage is something to never be entered into lightly, no matter who it is that is getting married! It can be a very complex thing, too, emotionally, physically, mentally, psychologically, financially, culturally and it takes proper preparation.
Of course, love cannot be legislated, and that is certainly something to take into consideration.
That being said, one could view the whole concept of marriage as being a tremendous balancing act- balance between your wishes and the wishes of your partner, balance between relations of the in-laws, balance between various members of each of the families, balance between parents and children, balance between the family unit and the society at large, to name a few. When one gets into the considerations of caste, creed, ages of the parties involved, goals of the couple, their values and outlooks on life and what it is they are going to be teaching their children, you can begin to see how complicated it can get, so careful forethought and consideration must be taken into account before a marriage can be got into, if it is to be a happy union. Again, like with so many other things education is key!
Wahe Guru,
Kulwant

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Quote "It's not that he doesn't want to fight but more that he can't see it happening for me and him. My parents have said they can't stop me marrying him but they don't want anything to do with it. He is a very family orientated person and he doesn't want me to lose my family over this.

I would keep fighting but I can't do it on my own- I need him to be fighting with me"

Kiran Ji

In England, I am aware of a couple who apposed their sons' marriage since it was not as per their choice, son had to move out. Then they married of their daughter as she wanted to be better in their eyes unlike her brother. She got divorce just after one year; however, their son and daughter in law are living nicely with their children even though the parents never went there to see grand sons due to their ego thing. Does this story sounds familiar?
If he loves you as you do, ask him if only for one reason he is giving up, it shows weakness; if he wants time, may be he is over loaded with various things, so let him be alone for some time. Keep in touch but never ever feel depressed because by doing so you are doing nothing but hurting yourself and weakening your emotional set up. Being so young , both of you have a lot of time. How it is felt only those can realize who are/ have been in love but still fact remains that getting into cursing yours self is not healthy. Also keep intact faith in GOD, and learn from what happened. I like all about you save for your being too negative about yourself. Stay strong, only deep faith in HIM can change your behavior. Thanks for hearing me on this subject.
With best wishes !

Yep that sounds very familiar. Me and him still talk to each other- he still tells me he loves me but he still wants my parents approval-not for himself but more for my sake.

I did believe in God and then for a little while after all this happened I stopped. I stopped praying and even stopped wearing my kara. But then I woke up and realised that without God i'm not me-and I need him to help and support me right now and by not believing I was being just as bad as my parents.

I don't know whats in store for me but all I can do is take each day as it comes.

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Sat Nam and Happy Greetings to all- I am trusting this find everyone well and good!
Marriage is something to never be entered into lightly, no matter who it is that is getting married! It can be a very complex thing, too, emotionally, physically, mentally, psychologically, financially, culturally and it takes proper preparation.
Of course, love cannot be legislated, and that is certainly something to take into consideration.
That being said, one could view the whole concept of marriage as being a tremendous balancing act- balance between your wishes and the wishes of your partner, balance between relations of the in-laws, balance between various members of each of the families, balance between parents and children, balance between the family unit and the society at large, to name a few. When one gets into the considerations of caste, creed, ages of the parties involved, goals of the couple, their values and outlooks on life and what it is they are going to be teaching their children, you can begin to see how complicated it can get, so careful forethought and consideration must be taken into account before a marriage can be got into, if it is to be a happy union. Again, like with so many other things education is key!
Wahe Guru,
Kulwant

Yes I totally agree marriage is something that shouldn't be entered into lightly. It's a huge step and needs to be thought about properly.

BUT

It's one thing to balance everything, it's another to be forced into choosing between people.

 

[KulwantK]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

You are so right- forced choosing; is it even really choosing? We have heard of the term, "choosing the lesser of two evils", and the idea of a forced marriage is pretty sad, indeed. It makes a mockery of the highest ideals of marriage, and makes the people involved into commodities.

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

You are so right- forced choosing; is it even really choosing? We have heard of the term, "choosing the lesser of two evils", and the idea of a forced marriage is pretty sad, indeed. It makes a mockery of the highest ideals of marriage, and makes the people involved into commodities.

Exactly...forced choosing does not exist...if you are forced into something you aren't given the option to choose. Not giving your child the right to choose who they spend the rest of their life with is wrong. Parents go to all these lengths to educate their children yet still bring something like caste into our lives.

If I am honest- I would marry my partner as soon as I could. Not to get at my parents or purposely go against them but because I believe they are wrong. They aren't doing right by me-they are hurting me more by keeping me and the person I love apart. But more than that- they are pushing me away and thats not how it is meant to be. I love my parents and want them in my life but I can never forget what they made me do. How the backed me into a corner and said its either him or them.

 

[Visitor]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

KiranC ji,

I am glad to see that you are feeling a little more positive about things.
TC

 

[singhavn]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Ofcourse Guru Gobind Singh Ji abolished caste system in Sikhs,That's why we have Singh and kaur with our names.Moreover our Guru's also starte LANGAR,where all people from different caste,creeds and sex sit together and eat food. Any Sikh practising caste system is not a Sikh.
But we should also not forget the 52 oders or HUKUM given by Guru Gobind Singh ji sometime before of his death at nanded, one of which was "A sikh girl must marry a sikh boy"

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Ofcourse Guru Gobind Singh Ji abolished caste system in Sikhs,That's why we have Singh and kaur with our names.Moreover our Guru's also starte LANGAR,where all people from different caste,creeds and sex sit together and eat food. Any Sikh practising caste system is not a Sikh.
But we should also not forget the 52 oders or HUKUM given by Guru Gobind Singh ji sometime before of his death at nanded, one of which was "A sikh girl must marry a sikh boy"

Hey singhavn

"Any Sikh practising caste system is not a Sikh."

Totally totally agree with you!!!!

 

[singhbj]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Hey everyone

Sorry for the late reply-i haven't really had time to check this as so much has been going on.

Ermmm ok...my dad met my partner not last sunday but the sunday before. My partner thought it went well-my dad on the other hand thought it went terrible. My dad simply did not like my partner. He said that I could do what I wanted but he wanted nothing to do with the wedding. :-(

I spoke to my partner who said that he wanted my dads approval before doing anything.

My dad asked my partner what he would do if my dad said no. My dad told me that my partners response was that he simply shrugged his shoulders and said he would move on. When i questioned my partner about it he said that wasn't what he said. What he had said was that he would not be happy about it, it wasn't an ideal situation but he would have no choice but to try and get on with things.

Lots of other things were said which I am not going to completely detail on here. Me and my partner are no longer together but he said that he will try to talk to my dad again.

They think they have done what is best for me-fair play to them-if i believed that someone didn't care about my child I would react in the same way. I feel like a part of me is missing-dunno how else to explain it. I'm miserable and can barely get myself out of bed in the mornings to go to work. If thats doing whats best for me then fair enough.

I dunno how much fight I have left in me. In all honesty I would be happy just to get married to my partner and get on with our lives-i know that sounds bad and all the people reading this will wonder what kind of person can go against their family so much and leave but I really believe they are wrong. And believe me if I could see some sort of way around it I would do it. But when my dad told me about the meeting none of you saw the hate in his eyes and in his tone of voice. He blamed me for everything that had gone wrong in the house the past few weeks. Nice bit of pressure and emotional blackmail to put on someone over 20 years your junior really isn't it.

Oh and yes money came into it-they don't have as much as we do therefore they are automatically after my money according to my dad. How that works is beyond me because my partner has offered to pay my rent when I couldn't and it amounted to £1600. If he was after my money would he really be offering to help me out????

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

Thanks for your reply, i just logged into this topic after a very long time. Anyway it's good that things have progressed e.g Meeting of your father with your mate.

Money plays a very big role in fixing or getting married nowdays. It is quiet normal for your father to be concerned in that respect.

In my opinion your mate is not 100 % confident on himself. He is not ready for full responsibility in regards to you and marriage. It is very difficult to take such a step independantly.

Let me ask are you planning to stay alone with your mate or with his family after marriage ? There is a big difference between both options !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

Thanks for your reply, i just logged into this topic after a very long time. Anyway it's good that things have progressed e.g Meeting of your father with your mate.

Money plays a very big role in fixing or getting married nowdays. It is quiet normal for your father to be concerned in that respect.

In my opinion your mate is not 100 % confident on himself. He is not ready for full responsibility in regards to you and marriage. It is very difficult to take such a step independantly.

Let me ask are you planning to stay alone with your mate or with his family after marriage ? There is a big difference between both options !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Hey Singhbj

If you read on you will find that things got worse not better, but thank you.

I understand my dads worry regarding money however what was the point in sending me to uni and letting me be independent if he was going to get all worked up about the fact that he thinks someone doesn't have enough money for me?

He wants this to happen as much as i do-in all honesty he is just more responsible than i am and is thinking about everyone including my family- even though they have treated him like something they would not scrape off the bottom of their shoe.

I wanted to live with his family for a while so I could get to know them, so the plan was to do that and then move out and get a house of own.

 

[singhbj]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

I just finished reading the rest of your posts. Let me just give you a general statistic of couples who get married without support of their parents in Indian or Punjabi Society. It is 1 couple in 1,000,000 couple rest just go with the tradition.

It is a very tough decision, needs great determination and guts to accomplish. Nothing like the movies or fairy tales.

Ideally, it is best that guy & his family should be financially better off than the girl & her family.

If like what hypocrites say "money doesn't matter" than they should marry an orphan !

Time is one of the biggest counsel in life. One has to live & learn !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[KiranC]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

I just finished reading the rest of your posts. Let me just give you a general statistic of couples who get married without support of their parents in Indian or Punjabi Society. It is 1 couple in 1,000,000 couple rest just go with the tradition.

It is a very tough decision, needs great determination and guts to accomplish. Nothing like the movies or fairy tales.

Ideally, it is best that guy & his family should be financially better off than the girl & her family.

If like what hypocrites say "money doesn't matter" than they should marry an orphan !

Time is one of the biggest counsel in life. One has to live & learn !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

I earn enough to keep myself happy...I don't rely on anyone for money nor will I ever. He has money-just not as much as my family (without trying to sound too up myself!)

1 in a 1,000,000?really? how sure are you about that? I don't think thats completely true!

I never expected anything to be easy and yes it does take a lot of guts. But i truely believe that they are wrong.

Everyone deserves to be happy. Life is too short to live it being miserable.

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Ideally, it is best that guy & his family should be financially better off than the girl & her family.

If like what hypocrites say "money doesn't matter" than they should marry an orphan !

disagree with it. By your logic only rich guys and families have right to marry.It does not mean that a girl who is financiaally better than a guy can't marry her.If a guy is qualified dedicated,committed and hardworking money will come.Its much better for girl to marry
That type of person rather than a useless millionare who don't know anything and is living on ancestral property worth rs. millions