Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

the current rehat maryada as published by SGPC in 1945 was compiled from previous rehetnamas and cross referenced with gurbani and also with known writings of the associates of the Gurus. it was specifically re-written to REMOVE any hindu/brahmanical elements

Interesting. So, there must be Sikhs who reject this re-writing, just as there are Christians who reject the re-writing of the Bible at the Council of Nicea.

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Interesting. So, there must be Sikhs who reject this re-writing, just as there are Christians who reject the re-writing of the Bible at the Council of Nicea.

There are sikhs who don't follow rehat maryada( code of conduct)
If you find in rehat maryada which is not acceptable to you then i think you should follow sikhism as non amritdhari.You just have to keep faith in gurbani

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Interesting. So, there must be Sikhs who reject this re-writing, just as there are Christians who reject the re-writing of the Bible at the Council of Nicea.

yes, there are sikhs who follow a stricter maryada and there are sikhs who don't follow maryada at all.

however, i disagree with your comparison. the bible is the christian holy scriptures. our holy scripture, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has never been rewritten or changed in any way.

it's more like when Vatican II removed so many of the old catholic rituals. rehet maryada is a code of conduct, not a holy scripture.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

All I can say is that I believe the same light of God exists in all and that, sometimes, God walks right beside us in rags just to see if we will love Him in any state he might appear before us. Therefore, I will take my chances and share my plate at any opportunity I have.

At any rate, I believe Sikhi to be a "non-exclusivist faith" as a very learned Sikh scholar explained it to me.

That's what I love about it. I also think that's one of the things that is the most difficult for us westerners to really wrap our minds around. It's hard not to try to base our understanding on the only kinds of reasoning we've ever known. And let's face it, western culture is not the most egalitarian... one-upmanship and separatism is woven into the fabric of our concsiousness from the moment we take our first breath. And I think it might behoove us to be mindful of this when we are trying to adapt to an eastern belief system, especially Sikhi, which is the most egalitarian faith I know of.

Respectfully,

c

i don't think anything that has been written in this thread disagrees with or contradicts your thoughts.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

yes, there are sikhs who follow a stricter maryada and there are sikhs who don't follow maryada at all.

however, i disagree with your comparison. the bible is the christian holy scriptures. our holy scripture, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has never been rewritten or changed in any way.

it's more like when Vatican II removed so many of the old catholic rituals. rehet maryada is a code of conduct, not a holy scripture.

Oh, I see. More like Quran and Hadith.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Not at all like Quran and Hadith. Not at all like the Old Testament. Not at all like the New Testament. Not at all like the Ramayana. Not at all like the Book of Mormon. Apologies as I know that I have left out other scriptures. Apologies.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Not at all like Quran and Hadith. Not at all like the Old Testament. Not at all like the New Testament. Not at all like the Ramayana. Not at all like the Book of Mormon. Apologies as I know that I have left out other scriptures. Apologies.

thank you.

apparently it's very difficult to understand a religion without comparing it to other religions. i wish i could better explain things so that such comparisons were not necessary.

 

[Sherab]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

thank you.

apparently it's very difficult to understand a religion without comparing it to other religions. i wish i could better explain things so that such comparisons were not necessary.

I dare say i'm even getting stressed out over this [the comparison], so i left the reply in the quick post box, and left the thread, so it vanished, sort of like my anger did... ::

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I think the most profound similarity is the follower's inability to see the commonalities between all belief systems. Made even more striking by the fact that the mere suggestion evokes passionate anger. Most followers of (apparently) all belief systems just seem to need to feel that theirs is so singular that it can't possibly be compared to others.

What I don't understand is why someone would get angry about this. Especially a Sikh, when almost everything I've heard about Sikhi is that it values all belief systems equally.

But then, if this is true, why would a person get so angry that they had to erase a phrase pointing out a commonality with another belief system? What is so offensive about that if Sikhi truly does value all belief systems equally?

It's almost humorous to me that anyone would get angry about a similiarity that is SO obvious. In islam you have the Quran, which is the Holy text of Islam. Then you have Hadit, which is the instructions for living according to Islamic values and cross referenced to the Holy text. And you have Sikhi which has the SGGS -- the Holy text of the Sikhs. And the Sikhs also have the maryana, which are the instructions for how to live life according to Sikhi principles, cross referenced with the Holy text.

Okay, this is a commonality between two belief systems. I am also told that Sikhi values all belief systems, including Islam. And yet, when a person points out, for purposes of definition and understanding, an obvious, undeniable similarity between the functions and relationships between the scriptures and the instructions of these two faiths, the people who hold the belief that all faiths are equal are the ones who are mad.

Hmmm... So you tell me. What is the big offensive sin in pointing out a commonality between groups of humans that are seeking to understand and follow God? Is Sikhi so much better than Islam that it's offensive to compare? What's wrong with comparison? Is it automatically assumed to be a criticism? And if so, that clearly contradicts the claims to believe in equlaity of religions.

You either value belief systems equally or you don't. If being compared to something is an insult and makes you angry, then you believe yourself to be superior.

That's the western thinking in us.

And the same goes for being too holy to eat off the same plate as someone who hasn't performed the same religious rites that you have.

Think about it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Just to clarify my own position -- I don't value all belief systems equally. I think some are better than others and that some are just plain stupid and mean. That's why I want to choose one instead of just hanging with the one I happened to be born into. I think some are better and have strayed less from the pure meaning of their roots.

But that's not the Sikh belief, right?

 

[Sherab]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caroline ji,

I'm human.

I have the 5 vices within me, and chances are, unless with waheguru's grace, i will always be prey to them.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I think the most profound similarity is the follower's inability to see the commonalities between all belief systems. Made even more striking by the fact that the mere suggestion evokes passionate anger. Most followers of (apparently) all belief systems just seem to need to feel that theirs is so singular that it can't possibly be compared to others.

What I don't understand is why someone would get angry about this. Especially a Sikh, when almost everything I've heard about Sikhi is that it values all belief systems equally.

But then, if this is true, why would a person get so angry that they had to erase a phrase pointing out a commonality with another belief system? What is so offensive about that if Sikhi truly does value all belief systems equally?

It's almost humorous to me that anyone would get angry about a similiarity that is SO obvious. In islam you have the Quran, which is the Holy text of Islam. Then you have Hadit, which is the instructions for living according to Islamic values and cross referenced to the Holy text. And you have Sikhi which has the SGGS -- the Holy text of the Sikhs. And the Sikhs also have the maryana, which are the instructions for how to live life according to Sikhi principles, cross referenced with the Holy text.

Okay, this is a commonality between two belief systems. I am also told that Sikhi values all belief systems, including Islam. And yet, when a person points out, for purposes of definition and understanding, an obvious, undeniable similarity between the functions and relationships between the scriptures and the instructions of these two faiths, the people who hold the belief that all faiths are equal are the ones who are mad.

Hmmm... So you tell me. What is the big offensive sin in pointing out a commonality between groups of humans that are seeking to understand and follow God? Is Sikhi so much better than Islam that it's offensive to compare? What's wrong with comparison? Is it automatically assumed to be a criticism? And if so, that clearly contradicts the claims to believe in equlaity of religions.

You either value belief systems equally or you don't. If being compared to something is an insult and makes you angry, then you believe yourself to be superior.

That's the western thinking in us.

And the same goes for being too holy to eat off the same plate as someone who hasn't performed the same religious rites that you have.

Think about it. That's all I'm saying.

wow. you've really read a lot into a few words. i'm not even sure where to start...

ok, first, we'll address the jooth issue, since you seem obsessed with it. go back through the thread, read it again, no one ever said anything about being "too holy". that's simply insulting and i don't know why you find it necessary to say things like that over and over when we've explained that that isn't the case.

next, as i understand it, sikhi says all belief systems are valid. not equal. there's a difference. for ME, sikhi is the best way. for a muslim, islam is the best way. there's nothing wrong with that, nothing contradictory. let me know if you don't understand this concept and i will try to break it down in to smaller bits.

perhaps it would make people more comfortable if their faith were contrasted with others, rather than compared to? just a thought. you seem to take pleasure from the fact that you've made people uncomfortable and even angry in this discussion, so i don't expect you'll heed any of my suggestions, but i'm hoping i make some kind of sense to you...



i find it strange that someone would come to a religious forum, profess an interest in said religion, then proceed to try and tear it down in a fit of self righteousness.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

What does washing your hands have to do with respect?

it's just cleanliness, after all, just like not sharing food off the same plate.

PS. on another note, the next time a panjabi person asks me for my caste, i'm saying dalit.

Heh Sherab Ji,

I understand what you mean here. Although are you then saying that only Amdrethi Sikhs are clean? Because if you persist with this line of reasoning that is indeed what you intermate.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Interesting. So, there must be Sikhs who reject this re-writing, just as there are Christians who reject the re-writing of the Bible at the Council of Nicea.

Caroline Ji,

Just to clarify the rehat maryada, is not strictly speaking a holy document, it is more in line with a statement of what a Sikh is and a code of conduct, written by a bunch of Sikh scholars in the early 40's. Many Gurdwara's have their own maryada, not all are the same nor should be taken in the same light. The Rehat Maryada is though sanctioned by SGPC, and so remains what most Siks agree with.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I think the most profound similarity is the follower's inability to see the........

Heh Carolibne ji,

I get the same sort of response from many Sikhs when I broach the same sort of topics. Unsupprisingly Sikhi is not imunne to all of the human failings that any other faith is. I have already said that I have meet perhaps two Sikhs in my life who truely walk with God(none of them is me). It is a hard way we have chossen.

But as many of my brothers and sisters would tell me; 'if you but take one step towards God, then God will take 10,000 steps towards you'

 

[Astroboy]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I think the most profound similarity is the follower's inability to see the commonalities between all belief systems. Made even more striking by the fact that the mere suggestion evokes passionate anger. Most followers of (apparently) all belief systems just seem to need to feel that theirs is so singular that it can't possibly be compared to others.

What I don't understand is why someone would get angry about this. Especially a Sikh, when almost everything I've heard about Sikhi is that it values all belief systems equally.

But then, if this is true, why would a person get so angry that they had to erase a phrase pointing out a commonality with another belief system? What is so offensive about that if Sikhi truly does value all belief systems equally?

It's almost humorous to me that anyone would get angry about a similiarity that is SO obvious. In islam you have the Quran, which is the Holy text of Islam. Then you have Hadit, which is the instructions for living according to Islamic values and cross referenced to the Holy text. And you have Sikhi which has the SGGS -- the Holy text of the Sikhs. And the Sikhs also have the maryana, which are the instructions for how to live life according to Sikhi principles, cross referenced with the Holy text.

Okay, this is a commonality between two belief systems. I am also told that Sikhi values all belief systems, including Islam. And yet, when a person points out, for purposes of definition and understanding, an obvious, undeniable similarity between the functions and relationships between the scriptures and the instructions of these two faiths, the people who hold the belief that all faiths are equal are the ones who are mad.

Hmmm... So you tell me. What is the big offensive sin in pointing out a commonality between groups of humans that are seeking to understand and follow God? Is Sikhi so much better than Islam that it's offensive to compare? What's wrong with comparison? Is it automatically assumed to be a criticism? And if so, that clearly contradicts the claims to believe in equlaity of religions.

You either value belief systems equally or you don't. If being compared to something is an insult and makes you angry, then you believe yourself to be superior.

That's the western thinking in us.

And the same goes for being too holy to eat off the same plate as someone who hasn't performed the same religious rites that you have.

Think about it. That's all I'm saying.

Amazingly good points.

 

[Sherab]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Heh Sherab Ji,

I understand what you mean here. Although are you then saying that only Amdrethi Sikhs are clean? Because if you persist with this line of reasoning that is indeed what you intermate.

Nope, i'm non-amritdhari, and still try to follow maryada - it does not make me "pure", i think all sikhs should try to follow the maryada that makes sense to *them*, even if they are non amritdhari. However, whatever the panj pyare tell you at amrit.. gotta follow that, then.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Nope, i'm non-amritdhari, and still try to follow maryada - it does not make me "pure", i think all sikhs should try to follow the maryada that makes sense to *them*, even if they are non amritdhari. However, whatever the panj pyare tell you at amrit.. gotta follow that, then.

Yes I agree, with both of your points here. Still that dosen't stop us using our brains and questioning the whys and what nots huh!

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Heh Sherab Ji,

I understand what you mean here. Although are you then saying that only Amdrethi Sikhs are clean? Because if you persist with this line of reasoning that is indeed what you intermate.

i think the cleanliness aspect is confusing. it's not that ONLY amritdhari sikhs are clean. it's that amritdhari sikhs are (hopefully) following the same maryada and are not taking intoxicants, etc.

it's not like ritual hindu impurity because ANY sikhs can become amritdhari if they wish. so it's not really "excluding" anyone.

i also don't see the big deal, i mean, why do you care if i don't eat off your plate? why should that offend anyone? you can certainly eat MY leftovers if you like. i just will choose not to eat yours.

i hope this is starting to make sense?

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Yes I agree, with both of your points here. Still that dosen't stop us using our brains and questioning the whys and what nots huh!

so do you feel your brain is superior to those who walked with our Gurus? to the Panj Piyare who represent Waheguru himself?

i'm sorry you have met so few "true" sikhs. where do you live? perhaps i can introduce you to some. i've been blessed to meet many young chardi kala sikhs in my short life... there are some really incredible people around if you look for them.