Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I haven´t married upon a caste
My husband is brazilian and converted to sikh

Wow a Brazillian convert. Would be interesting to hear his story.

 

[Gurjeevan]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

A lot of confused people out there- there is a difference between caste and religion. Caste=within the same religion. Religion=different religion all together. Being Sikh, there should be no considereation of the caste- so a jatt getting married to a ramgarhia should be issueless. However, a sikh getting married to a non sikh ie hindu is completely wrong, unless the sikh accepts and converts to the religion of their partner and vice versa- sikhi says that both partners need to share the same religion- so as long as this holds-regardless of the caste- then it is fine....saying you are a sikh whilst married to a hindu is a joke- however, saying that you are a sikh and are married to a person who converted to sikhi is fine.

 

[max314]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

You are right he or she doesn’t.
The question really is not about "proving", but "accepting" the core values. I would argue that there are a number of Sikhs out there that do not accept the core values (eg remember the hulla balloo about meat).

What I am saying is that if a particular community is going to position itself at the forefront of Sikhism, then it can’t be seen to pick and choose.



OK…let us analyse this.

Before Guru Nanak came on the scene, it would have been considered a sin for say a Jatt’s shadow to pass over a Brahmin . The latter would consider himself polluted. The fact Guru Nanak managed to get them to eat together was a miracle in itself…….so lets not even talk about marriage yet.

As a wise Gursikh in India said to me, when climbing a mountain, you have to set up camps for climbers to acclimatise.
Lets look at the Guru’s attitude on marriage:

1) At that time in society marriage ceremonies (bar untouchables), were carried out by Brahmins. Brahmin’s would not carry out inter-caste/racial marriages, so it was impossible to marry another caste/race. The Guru’s introduced the Anand Karaj ceremony which lifted this taboo.

2) The social interaction at the time between women of different castes and men of different castes did not simply occur….so how would the Guru’s meet anyone of a different caste of the opposite sex for marriage puposes?

3) Marriages were all arranged (the Guru’s being no exception)……they had no say in the matter and were fixed up as children. Parents would ask for suitable matches…….unfortunately not one person of a different caste to the Guru’s offered their daughters hand to the Guru’s…….maybe they didn’t feel worthy.

4) If the Guru’s had married out of caste, I don’t think the embryonic Sikh Society of that time (who were essentially still Hindu’s), were ready for that yet………the message of the Guru’s would have been lost in the furore over which such an intercaste union would have caused. The Guru’s message to who needed it the most (the ignorant peasantry), would have been lost.

There are many other reasons, but you get the gist.​

Way too many issues for me to be bothered to delve into one at a time, so I'll just leave it as saying that we should agree to disagree on certain matters, and that we agree on others.

The real thing that made me laugh was this, though:

I dont know from where MAX arrived Got idea that people consider JATT superior . It may be in the local circle of MAX. As per my knowledge in Punjab Except the low classes of hindu system and JATT themself consider themselve superior and no body else .

The title of the thread reads:

"How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)"

The implication that Jatts are considered higher up in the 'hierarchy' of social castes is actually in the thread title, and not something that I 'began'.

And seeing as neither the Brahmin nor the Kyshatria survived the transition to the caste system that was (falsely) re-adopted by the Sikkh community at large, Jatts are - to the best of my knowledge - the next link down in the chain.

Thanks.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

The implication that Jatts are considered higher up in the 'hierarchy' of social castes is actually in the thread title, and not something that I 'began'.

And seeing as neither the Brahmin nor the Kyshatria survived the transition to the caste system that was (falsely) re-adopted by the Sikkh community at large, Jatts are - to the best of my knowledge - the next link down in the chain.

Thanks.

I’d have to agree with the Dr Khalsa. I have Jatt relatives, and even they would agree that in terms of social classification and the caste system only Jatts themselves consider themselves high.

My own marriage to a Jatt lady had ramification’s for me since my family saw Jatt’s as low in term’s of caste, and yet we are probably a median on the social hierarchy.

The Jatt being the next link down, is a myth started by Mcleod and his cronies. He views Sikhism from what occurred in the 60’s namely the green revolution when Jatts prospered and their political and economic influenced increased. This is one snapshot in the 400 to 500 year history of the Khalsa…..and not a true reflection of the history of the Khalsa.

In terms of caste and social hierarchy, groups like , Arora’s, Khatri’s, Tarkhan’s, etc are seen as distinctly higher than Jatts. Jatt’s would be seen on par with Labana’s, Saini’s and Gypsy like tribe’s etc.

The change in fortune for the Jatt status came around the 1800’s when the system of agriculture changed from Zamindar to Jagirdar…….so previous tenants (Jatts, Saini’s, Tarkhan’s etc), became owner’s of the land they worked. I see that as a pivotal point in the upliftment of the Jatt’s fortune’s.

 

[max314]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I’d have to agree with the Dr Khalsa. I have Jatt relatives, and even they would agree that in terms of social classification and the caste system only Jatts themselves consider themselves high.

My own marriage to a Jatt lady had ramification’s for me since my family saw Jatt’s as low in term’s of caste, and yet we are probably a median on the social hierarchy.

The Jatt being the next link down, is a myth started by Mcleod and his cronies. He views Sikhism from what occurred in the 60’s namely the green revolution when Jatts prospered and their political and economic influenced increased. This is one snapshot in the 400 to 500 year history of the Khalsa…..and not a true reflection of the history of the Khalsa.

In terms of caste and social hierarchy, groups like , Arora’s, Khatri’s, Tarkhan’s, etc are seen as distinctly higher than Jatts. Jatt’s would be seen on par with Labana’s, Saini’s and Gypsy like tribe’s etc.

The change in fortune for the Jatt status came around the 1800’s when the system of agriculture changed from Zamindar to Jagirdar…….so previous tenants (Jatts, Saini’s, Tarkhan’s etc), became owner’s of the land they worked. I see that as a pivotal point in the upliftment of the Jatt’s fortune’s.

My information points me in quite the opposite direction.

As far as I am aware, the "fortune" of "the Jatt status" has always been fairly great. Even since the times of the Vedas, Jatts have been mentioned in various places, including the Jatt heritage of the Hindu Lord Krishna.

Most Jatt groups are actually derivations of the Kshatriya caste, and their surnames include Sohi and Bedi - coincidentally, the same surnames as those of the Sikkh gurus.

Other clans included those such as the Rajputs, who are well known Indian aristocrats. And so, to say that Jatts never actually owned any land prior to 1800 is little more than a myth, the origin of which is of little interest to me (if there is any real truth to it, then perhaps it had something to do with land being held by Mughals after their Indian conquests?).

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

My information points me in quite the opposite direction.

As far as I am aware, the "fortune" of "the Jatt status" has always been fairly great. Even since the times of the Vedas, Jatts have been mentioned in various places, including the Jatt heritage of the Hindu Lord Krishna.

Most Jatt groups are actually derivations of the Kshatriya caste, and their surnames include Sohi and Bedi - coincidentally, the same surnames as those of the Sikkh gurus.

Dear Friends,

Sat Shri Akal



About the above quotes Please give source of yopur information

To me they seems obviously wrong.

Lord Krishan belonged to Vaish ( Merchant Class) of Society

I never came across SODHI AND BEDI JATTS in pwrson and also in litrature . Although these surnames are there in Kashatria class till date.

About Land Issue , any histiry book acn be refered to know that cultivator was not the owner of land in Punjab till Zamindari sysytem was abolished.



he title of the thread reads:

"How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)"

The implication that Jatts are considered higher up in the 'hierarchy' of social castes is actually in the thread title, and not something that I 'began'.

And seeing as neither the Brahmin nor the Kyshatria survived the transition to the caste system that was (falsely) re-adopted by the Sikkh community at large, Jatts are - to the best of my knowledge - the next link down in the chain.

Dear MaX , I thinkyou are having trouble with understanding Punjabi

Jaat /Zaat means caste not JATT community


and your perception about various caste sysytem readopted in Sikhism is also very personal and not very common perception in Punjab




Thank You

 

[max314]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

This debate is taking up more time and effort than I believe such a topic is worth. We are going back and forth on a relatively insignficant issue in the eyes of Sikkhi, which is that of caste. I'd rather not do that.

So I humbly bow out of this discussion.

Thank you for your time.

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Thanks for pointing out the right thing

I agree with you that it is waste of time.


Thanks

Jatinder Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

My information points me in quite the opposite direction.
As far as I am aware, the "fortune" of "the Jatt status" has always been fairly great. Even since the times of the Vedas, Jatts have been mentioned in various places, including the Jatt heritage of the Hindu Lord Krishna.

I think Dr Khasla has covered this. This would be news to me and some information backing this up would be useful.

I think Jatt fortune’s have been mixed over the years. Many converted to Islam (some 40%) in the hope that their fortune’s would change, but alas their prior social status remained the same. Sikhism was a faith that Jatt’s (and other low castes) came rushing to because it promised them a change in fortune. You will note that most converts to Sikhism do not come from the Kshatriya, Brahmin and Vaish caste’s, but are mostly from Sudra, and Untouchable caste’s. Sikhism gave these people generally an opportunity for social upliftment. If you observe Hindu-Jatt’s (and other Hindu group’s), they have tried to mimic the Sikh social upliftment, but their method has been to redefine Hinduism (a good example being Arya Samaj).

Most Jatt groups are actually derivations of the Kshatriya caste, and their surnames include Sohi and Bedi - coincidentally, the same surnames as those of the Sikkh gurus.

Sohi is a surname in Jatts, but not Sodhi. If Jatts do have Kshatriya surname it is probably from allegiance to their Kshatriya landlords (Yajman’s). The Bedi’s and Sodhi’s were amongst these landlord’s. Other caste’s too have this.

Other clans included those such as the Rajputs, who are well known Indian aristocrats. And so, to say that Jatts never actually owned any land prior to 1800 is little more than a myth, the origin of which is of little interest to me (if there is any real truth to it, then perhaps it had something to do with land being held by Mughals after their Indian conquests?).

Rajput’s are the equivilaent of Knight’s. Anyone from any background is capable’s of being a Knight. The difference being the patronage of this Rajput (kinghood), was given by Brahmin’s to those caste’s that upheld dharma. Amongst these were, Jatt’s, Labana’s, Dalit’s, Saini’s, Carpenter’s etc etc.
On the contrary, I think it is a myth to say Jatt’s were landlord’s. You need to do more research. Indu Banga covers land ownership in detail. Jatts were major beneficiaries of the Jagirdary system. Some Jatts did own land (pre-1800), but they were usually few and far between. There is also no shame in being a tenant farmer. This was the case in much of the world at that time. There were tenants, and then there were land owner’s for example Russia had it’s Serf’s. One of the corner principle’s of Maharja Ranjit Singh’s rule was that those who worked the land should own the land.
I will put quotes from my sources in due course on land ownership. The movement of land and the socio political change that affects this is a topic that fascinates me. In Punjab, this movement is inexorably linked to Sikhism.​

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

This debate is taking up more time and effort than I believe such a topic is worth. We are going back and forth on a relatively insignficant issue in the eyes of Sikkhi, which is that of caste. I'd rather not do that.

So I humbly bow out of this discussion.

Thank you for your time.

Hi Max, I think your input is useful because it point's to some things that are at the heart of the debate, and that most people find very uncomfortable discussing. What I would suggest is that I will try and post a reading list on some of the issue's covered here that you may want to look at.

Thanks

 

[LifeWithSoul]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Well, I did not marry out of race because my father would never have allowed me to marry a non-Sikh. In the end things worked out to be easier as we have the same religion. Although all religions are equal, they ARE different and their practice is different and this may or may not a be a problem for different people. Finally, I think race and caste are 2 quite different things caste connotes social status, while race is more of an ethnic identity issue. What do you think?

 

[Jaspal Singh]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

page 1087:

O Nanak, he alone is known as united, who does not forsake his Guru, and who does not love duality. |

 

[Jaspal Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Thind ji , you really have problem. If you do not believe in GOD then what the hell you want to do with religion?

Page 641:
As far as possible, do not associate with the faithless cynics, O Beloved. Meeting with them, the Lord is forgotten, O Beloved, and you rise and depart with a blackened face.

Page 1369:

Kabeer, associate with the Holy people, who will take you to Nirvaanaa in the end. Do not associate with the faithless cynics; they would bring you to ruin. || 93

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Kulwinder Singh Thandi
1988-Until Now~And~Forever After-
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thind ji , you really have problem. If you do not believe in GOD then what the hell you want to do with religion?


I CHOOSE NOT TO BELEIVE IN ANYTHIING- IM NOT LOST, IM NOT CONFUSED, I'VE CHOSEN TO LIVE LIFE TO NOT WORRY ABOUT WHATS AFTER IT- I TINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE AS JUST HUMANS WITH OUT ANY WORRY OF WHICH RELIGION TO CHOOSE. BE GOOD HUMANS BE KIND.

SOME MAY BE ABLE TO LIVE THIS WAY OTHERS MAY NOT FOR ME IT WORKED AND IM HAPPY WHY CHANGE YOURSELF IF YOUR HAPPY AND IN A PEACEFUL MIND STATE?

I HVE NO PROBLEM - IN SIKHISM IT SAYS TO RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS BUT I GUESS THERE IS NO RESPECT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO RELIGION EH ? UNLESS SOMEONE CAN TELL ME WHICH RELIGION I LIFESTYLE BE SIMILAR TO CAUSE I CANT THINK OF ANY.


A-O-L / A)-I-M): PunjabiMaffia559
Yahoo: SikhMinded
UK HIT ME UP ON MSN
MSN: DjKuee@Kermantel.Net
Life Is A Dream, Waking up is dying~
"Kulwinder Singh Thandi"
IM ALOT MORE HAPPIER WERE IM AT,

whatever you are happy with and you are right........Sikhism tells us to respect other faiths, but it also asks others faiths/trains of thought etc to respect us too.

One question....I hear this agnostic word being batted around (especially when I was at Uni), like it is some kind of trend.........have you actually explored Sikhism..........I'm not talking about the fanatical crap you get from some nutters at the Gurudwara.....but explored it deeply and what it is actually about.

As someone who was a Communist and is still a Socialist I dismissed Sikhism as some sort of "opium of the masses" until somone asked me to explore what I dismissed. I have since found it fascinating. I can't say I do all the ritual business that goes with religion (I disagree with it and it contradicts Sikh teachings), but I have a deep Spirituality now on Sikhism's core Values. Those that are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

What I would say is explore all faiths....don't dismiss them. Find out about them and put yourself in a position where you can say, "well actually I do know about Sikhism, but it does not appeal to me."

You have inadvertently quoted Guru Gobind Singh ji do you realise when you said:

BE GOOD HUMANS BE KIND.

Guru Gobind Singh ji says:

Maanaas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano
Recognise the Human Race as One

Guru Gobind also talks about, if you wish to be a friend to me then be a friend to humanity

You may inadvertently be a Sikh anyway?

 

[Rani_5]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Personally I dont agree that we as devout Sikhs should consider caste in marital relations. I do however see as a Sikh who has been born in the UK, that there is a difference in how the faith is perceived between different castes, sometimes. It is akin to racism. It is both annoying and unfortunately a problem that we have to take on board just as other factors.

 

[Rani_5]

Re: How Many Siks Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)

DEAR BROTHER

ssakal

PLEASE PUT UP A POLL ON HOW MANY OF US CONSIDER CASTE AS A FACTOR IN OUR MATRIMONIAL DESCESION .

tHIS WOULD HELP IN LETTING US KNW OUR SELF AND EACH OTHER IN A MORE HONEST MANNER

LOVE

HPS62

I agree

 

[manjeet007]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

i am not married yet, but i dont think there is any sort of problem regarding caste or racism. The younger generation, now are very much aware of these, and we dont take it is as an issue. (it's the love and affection between your partner which matters ). even also our GURUS had discarded the castism system.

 

[JSShoker]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

I think the question is "how many Sikhs have married outside their own caste", and in reply to that question is....not many. i believe alot of Sikhs are still marrying among their own castes maybe not because of discrimination but out of tradition. Although the Sikh religion preaches equality and does not form barriers between people, in practice unfortunately the old customs die hard. This will only be resolved by education and possibly time itself.

 

[dalsingh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

What I've seen is that many Sikhs want to marry each other across caste lines (not all though), but when they try, all hell breaks loose and families give ultimatums and threats and stop it happening.

 

[Sarbjeet Singh]

Re: How Many Sikhs Have Married out Of Jaat/Zaat (Caste/Race)?

Firstly, let me shock you that many 3rd, 4th or 6th generation Sikhs living outside of India/Punjab have no clue as to which caste they belong to. As many Sikhs from these countries ultimately after generations have just not paid any significance to whole caste subject thus it eventually dying a natural death....So it makes it very difficult for these Sikhs to answer the caste question as they have no clue as to which caste they our their spouses belong to.
God bless you all!