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Hindus Blame Pakistan For Their Own Mess!

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by gs_chana, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. gs_chana

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    Jan 16, 2005
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    Sat Sri Akal to all,

    Well just noted in this recent BBC article how intolerance is unfortunantly still widely among the population at large in India.

    Should be noted, at leas the comedian in the article got the chance to go back to a safeheaven i.e. his homeland. I guess Sikhs are forever stuck in the midst of a corrupt neo-nazi indian government with a puppet in Manmohan Singh to blindly guide us.


    Take a look at the article, you'll understand why I call for greater unity amongst the Sikh nation - and no I do not mean just necessarily Khalistan = solution to all problems; I mean actual unity amongst all international sikhs.

    Just a thought.

    Gurdip Chana. :happy:
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  3. pk70

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    Feb 25, 2008
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    Gurdip chana ji
    How Sikhs are divided in this context ? How every thing should be blamed on Hindus only? Kindly elaborate, I couldn't read your quoted article.
    Give a list of Manmohan Singh ji should have done, let the people know how, what and where he has missed it. I strongly believe, there is no conflict, people create it.:)
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  4. OP

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    Jan 16, 2005
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    Sat sri akal ji,

    Thanks for the well reasoned question; I did keep my post very brief but I will elaborate.

    Firstly, I didn't mean to say "blame everything on hindus" - my use of the term Hindu here was out of place, my apologies, but what I meant was that the RSS, Shiv Sena and basically all Hindu Nationalists - STILL STRIKE BLOWS AT THE Sikhs, Muslims, and Christians of India.

    They are a stain on the Indian government: but this is the question I ask. WHY ARE THESE HINDU NATIONALISTS STILL IN POWER?

    In Britan the BNP or NF, or even Neo-Nazis REMAIN UNDERGROUND/OUT OF THE WAY. I cannot understand how India blindly allows such persons to stay in power. MORE IMPORTATLY - WE SIKHS ARE IN THE SAME MESS.

    This brings me onto my second point. We have a 'Sikh' prime-minister, but as I mentioned before, the grip Indian politics is held in under the Hindu Nationalists, mean really and truely 'he has no real power'.

    I do not wish to go on about this; my point in relation to Manmohan Singh is simple, we Sikhs are a divided bunch that cannot seek shelter from OURSELVES.

    This brings me onto my final point. Sikhs are a DIVIDED faith. Guru Nanak proclaimed: "there is no hindu, no muslum" - Nanak talks of a new world order where there is no religion - only worship in the TRUE god. Guru Nanak knew the Muslims were stuck in their old ways and Hindus (as the Guru Granth sahib says NOT ME) "the hindus worshipping their stones will drown just like a stone in water".

    Now the fact of the matter is this, I will list FACTS of current state from first glance (imagine what problems we will see if we dig deeper).

    [I WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASISE: The principle of Sikhi IS PERFECT - Guru Granth Sahib says it all; unadultered word of god. The "concept" works absolutly well].

    1. We have a caste system - there is no shying away from that. We need full eradication of this (by education of Sikhi).

    2. We have a corrupt Sikh political system: Akali Dal, controlled by BADAL. Today Sikhs are voting our 'enemies' into power - we have already killed off a political system. Sikhi and politics have been mixed WHEN WE WERE FORBIDDEN (miri and piri).

    As a result, we have politicians who pay money for Sikh events FOR VOTES, we have politicians pay money into THEIR OWN POCKETS, when farmers Hang themselves over having no money to pay for debts.

    3. We Sikhs as a whole (myself included) have VERY little education about REAL Sikhi. We Sikhs have made a system ourselves which is distant from the vision Guru Nanak had.

    I honestly feel we Sikhs have a lot more to learn; I AM NOT SAYING ALL HOPE IS LOST. I see the "new" sikhs in America, South America, etc who are embracing Sikhi and existing Sikhs teaching themselves through the use of the internet to Strenghten their spirit.

    We need REFORM. Simple. I listed 3 confusing things above. The last point is my main point. The first two are examples of how the list could just go on and on.

    Let me have your view on this, and please if you are reading "SAY SOMETHING". We all need to discuss such matters to LEARN of each other - that is the basic step of being a Sikh (be a learner - not closed minded).

    Sorry for sounding confusing at times. wrote this in a rush.

    Gurdip Chana.
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  5. pk70

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    Feb 25, 2008
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  6. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    May 25, 2005
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    Will a Khalistan government be any less corrupt?

    What will Khalistan be? A Theorocracy will an Aytollah type figure as a head?

    We missed our chance in 1947, there will never be a Khalistan, and I honestly don't think we are capable of running a Khalistan, given the bunch of monkey's we have had running and in opposition in the Punajb Government! :confused:
  7. OP

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    Jan 16, 2005
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    Sat sri akal,

    I am glad to see my other brothers and sisters taking the same approach to such matters.

    I highlighted my concerns for a divided nation, and I still stand strongly behind such a suggestion. We need unity and consolidation of our resources, knowledge, power etc TO BECOME A UNITED POWERFUL PANTH.

    I am not saying we Sikhs should make Sikhi into some form of institution - but collaboration and unity will help us in all situations - especially regarding Religious and Socio-political matters.

    A Khalistan is NOT the answer. As Randir kindly points out - the Punjabi Sikhs are in no way shape or form ready to make a Khalistan. They themselves don’t want it, the Sikhs in the Diaspora make all such claims. We live in relative peace in the west (outside India), and it saddens me that all our attentions in the west are to try and push for a Khalistan.

    NONE OF OUR GURU'S EVER CREATED A SEPARATE LAND...we always lived amongst others AS THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL principle of sikhi. Remember, I will always go back to my Guru's point - "there is no Hindu, or no Muslim".

    Just take a look at any country where its primary demography is composed of Muslims or Christians or Jews. Middle-eastern countries are split and have gone to war in the past. Christian "western" countries have butchered each other in the battlefields of WW1 and WW2. Jews in an attempt to establish Israel spill the blood of their own and that of Palestinians to get their way.

    I really hope Sikhs DONT go down the same route - we tried in 1984 - we got slaughtered. None of those Sikhs in Harmandir Sahib deserved death (and that is including Bhindrawale and his followers) - therefore I ask - can a Khalistan be established with peace? No, is a Khalistan solution to all our problems? No.

    I will conclude this on one simple point: Sikhs are told to first be Saints and then IF NECESSARY soldiers (i.e. Khalsa). We all jump the gun and run to take Amrit without having a clue about the REAL message of Guru Ji and his way of life. Our Guru's didn't envisage a world divided and at war...

    Our Guru's instead envisaged a world, as per last line of Ardas, where we all submit ourselves to the Will of God (i.e. pray, meditate, etc) and improve our own mental state of minds so that ONE DAY, Peace on Earth will follow.

    Peace of the Mind = Peace of World - why? because nobody will therefore have the low-level Manmukh state of mind which is entwined in Maya. Guru Ji helps us escape Maya, escape the 'illusionary veil' of the world and SEE THE TRUTH (i.e. God, His real existence, His real creation, His real way of life = which is prescribed in Guru Granth Sahib [I cannot list it all here - will take forever! lol]).

    Anyway, let me know your thoughts on that Brothers and Sisters.

    Gurdip Chana.
  8. Archived_member7

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    Mar 27, 2006
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    by Prabhjot Singh and Varinder Walia

    Tribune, April 21

    Baba Bakala, April 20

    Long isolation, survival on a pittance and donations and the
    realisation that violence was no solution to any problem were the
    factors that forced Wassan Singh Zaffarwal, a once ruthless leader
    of the Khalistan Commando Force (Zaffarwal), to retract his stand
    on “Khalistan” and seek “a return to the mainstream”.

    “I have always felt sorry for those innocent victims who fell to the
    bullets of militants during turbulence in Punjab. I wish I could go to
    the families of the victims of that ‘madness’ and explain to them
    how people like me were used as mere ‘puppets’ by the
    Pakistan-based ISI”, Wassan Singh Zaffarwal, one of the most
    wanted militants in the late 80s and early 90s, said here today.

    “I feel that the age between 25 years and 40 years is the time when
    one has to channelise one’s energies in a positive way. It was this
    period of my life with which I wreaked havoc. I strayed on to a path
    of destruction and got into wrong hands. Once I was there I could
    not come out. It was like slush in which I had sunk myself deeper
    and deeper to reach a stage of no return”, he said when The Tribune
    team caught with him while he was being brought here from the
    place of his detention for extension of police remand.

    Mr S.S. Dhaliwal, Additional Civil Judge, extended his remand until
    April 23. Earlier, he was medically examined at the Civil Hospital

    “Once I openly opposed the plans given to us for execution in
    Punjab. The result was that I was sent to solitary confinement for
    six months. Otherwise we always had a ‘munshi’ supervising our
    activities in the ‘kothis’ we stayed in Pakistan”, he said disclosing
    that he went to Pakistan thrice with the last visit in 1987 extending
    till July, 1996, when he finally left that country for “good” for
    greener pastures in Switzerland.

    But once there he was reduced to being a parasite living on the
    doles of the Swiss Government and donations from the UK-based
    Council of Khalistan”.

    After his visit to Pakistan in 1984, which lasted a month, he
    returned and announced “Khalistan” from Akal Takht. He returned to
    Pakistan in 1986 for a fortnight and then went back in 1987.

    It was between 1984 and 1991 that Zaffarwal had 15 cases of
    murder, attempt to murder, secession, waging a war against the
    nation and other criminal acts registered against him.

    Of the eight cases in which he was registered a proclaimed offender,
    the first one attempt to murder was registered against him at
    Dasuya when militants opened fire at a medical hall, seriously
    injuring the two brothers running the shop.

    Another case of murder and attempt to murder was registered
    against him on January 25 the following year when a group of
    militants opened indiscriminate fire at Dasuya, killing two persons
    besides injuring eight.

    Yet another case of indiscriminate firing three persons lost their
    lives at Dhariwal on May 6, 1985. He was one of five suspects
    named in the case. In the same year in the month of November,
    Zaffarwal and Tarsem Singh Kohar were named in an FIR after the
    Sarpanch of Udoke Kalan was shot and one of his accomplice injured
    in a shootout.

    In February, 1986, Zaffarwal was named in another case of murder
    and attempt to murder when four persons were killed in
    indiscriminate firing. The last case of murder and attempt to murder
    was registered against him in 1991 when Balwinder Singh was
    dragged out of his house and shot in the jurisdiction of the Amritsar
    Sadar police station.

    Zaffarwal denies his presence or involvement in any of these cases.
    Besides, there are two cases of sedition registered against him in
    Amritsar in 1986 and 1989.

    “We were under our Pakistan bosses. They would tell us to write
    letters and issue directions to our men in the field. These were sent
    through special couriers. Our operations were mainly funded through
    money coming from our sources in Europe and North America. The
    money was transferred in the name of certain shopkeepers of Lahore
    or Sialkot and we would draw cash from them. The ISI provided us
    well-furnished kothis. Some of us were provided cars like Toyota
    Corolla but we had to seek permission for every outing.

    “I did attend some of the training camps, including those in
    handling explosives and firearms. I can fire a rocket and use an
    AK-47. We had the maximum recruitment in 1988-89. I may have
    provided firearms to 300-odd members of my organisation, besides
    getting 65 to 70 of them trained in the use of firearms.

    “We used to get copies of Indian newspapers, including Punjabi
    Tribune, at our ‘kothis’. I used to feel bad for the killing of innocent
    persons. Dr Jagjit Singh Chauhan also always opposed killings of
    innocents. Others who opposed these were Tejinder Singh, I.S. Bal
    and D.S. Sandhu.

    “Since we were under their control, whenever we opposed such a
    move we were threatened that we would be dropped at the border.
    Under threat we kept quiet,” he said, maintaining that such actions
    also led to rumblings within militant organisations.

    “In one case, two youngsters — Pal Singh and “Nihang” were shot in
    their sleep by the leader of their group, a veterinary doctor (P.S.
    Sekhon). His accomplices left him and joined the Paramjit Singh
    Panjwar’s group there. This led to another clash between Sekhon’s
    group and Panjwar’s group. Paramjit Singh Panjwar, whose family
    has now got political asylum in Germany, was the most ruthless.”

    “While I was in Pakistan, others who were living in kothis like me
    included Paramjit Singh Panjwar, Wadhawa Singh Babbar, Mahil
    Singh Babbar, Gajinder Singh, Lakhbir Singh Rode, P.S. Sekhon and
    Balbir Singh Sandhu. Mahil Singh has his family in Canada now while
    Wadhawa Singh Babbar lives with his wife, son and a daughter in
    Pakistan. His second daughter has been married to someone in
    Germany,” Zaffarwal disclosed.

    Talking about his initiation into militancy, he said he made friends
    with Tarsem Singh Kohar without realising that he was a militant.

    “One of his friends, Madan Lal Maddi, was arrested by the police. He
    named me. For fear of police arrest and harassment, I left my home
    and never returned. My brother was taken into custody. My mother
    was detained. My father remained with the police for eight years.

    Once I left home, I got into the hands of the ISI. Initially, I felt
    uncomfortable but once I got into the Damdami Taksal fold, I
    started feeling safe.

    “Under the circumstances, I had no choice but to oblige my masters.
    I could not return home for fear of the Army and the police. We
    never claimed responsibility. But mostly these were our men in the
    field who made these claims. But I can tell you I was never involved
    any killing,” he said.

    I want to be back with my people, with my family, in my own
    country. I had been desperate to return home. I am ready to face
    the consequences for my actions
    . To be honest, I wanted to be back
    last year. In February, I went to Rome and used photocopies of the
    passport of another Indian, Charanjit Singh, to obtain an Emergency
    Travel Certificate from the Indian Embassy in Rome. I put my
    picture and changed the date of birth from 1976 to 1956.
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