Hi everyone, Dear friends: My opinions are not sacrosanct and in the great scheme of things may well be wrong. My disagreement with the practice of homosexuality –Gayism, does not make me an anti gay person, each must answer for his own life and I have enough sin of my own to answer for without getting involved with any others. Also it is not to do with what I think that it is wicked or I think it is wrong or any of what I think, as I am just making an observation to the point that was raised in this posting, so I will continue with a short review on the points below.
Are you sure that God does not approve of two people who love one another being together? Which God do you mean? Do you think he would prefer that his children who were born homosexual were placed on this earth to suffer? I am always wary of those that claim that God wouldn't like x. What is the basis for such an assertion? Can we be certain that God values more what 2 people do in thier bedroom then say feeding the starving, ending all wars, etc?
Aman Singh asked this question on another thread: What would an ideal Religion according to you?
“A religion that lets us do what we want.” Would I suspect be the preference of all of us if we were given a genuine option. But as far as I know we have not been given that option other than choosing through which religion we wish to worship our own particular God. So the highlighted part of the above question of how do I think God values your two examples needs to be answered through one of these beliefs, as it is not what I say but what I understand God says. Now as far as I understand Does God say that there are numerous serious problems facing mankind and as they are so important any of the other stuff going on that is not as serious, then you can all decide what you want to do?
Let me give an illustration: Aside from mankind, all other living things are driven by instinct (This is just meant to be an illustration so don’t any of you smart {censored}s come up with the theory that some microbes have actually been seen making holiday plans!)
The dog I have now is no different than the dog I had 50 years ago, it does the same things, it can’t help itself it’s driven by instinct or as we call it in today’s jargon, It has been pre-programmed and hard wired in doggy mode. We though have been blessed or cursed by our creator with the responsibility to make our own minds up, this is why so much confusion exists, but to alleviate this he is purported to have given us his word in the form of holy writings. Now for the sake of me please accept that I refer to the Bible:
There are many aspects of religious texts/scriptures that are meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. How do we know that the supposed sin of homosexuality should be understood in these terms? For example, I doubt that the following biblical passages (St. James version) relating to slavery were to be taken literally:
1. How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?(A slave must completely obey and fear his master, even if his master is cruel and unjust) “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5).
You ask the question should we take it literally? Well many of the things written in the Bible are in respect of life at the time of writing, so thanks to William Wilberforce slavery was abolished by Britain and that description on a slave and a slaves responsibility has no relevance for us, also your understanding of slavery is as mine one of total repugnance, but under Hebrew law a slave was more like a bonded servant and had rights.
So lets look at the reference to Homosexuality: 1 Corinthians 6:9,10,11.. Surely you know the unjust will never come into possession of the kingdom of God. Make no mistake, no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or greedy persons or drunkards or slanderers or swindlers will possess the kingdom of God, such were some of you. ..... But you are clean through the blood of Jesus Christ. (Paraphrased) end quote..
Now you must choose whether you feel that we should take it literally or not and if not then what about steeling and lying and the other things it mentions? It clearly says of the people it was written to that they used to practice those things but had stopped and become acceptable to God.
2. What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave?
“A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27).
3. Whom did God tell the Israelites they should turn into their slaves?
(The people of other tribes living around them) "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44).
4. What does God say is to happen to a male slave after six years of service?
“If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever” (Exodus 21:2-6).
5. What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?
(He should avoid all punishment if the slave survives for a couple days after the beating) “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21).
6. Does God allow you to sell your daughter into slavery?
(Yes. And the situation is not unbearable for her since, if her master takes her as his wife and she does not please him, he must set her free) “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10).
7. What punishments does God mandate when an ox gores a free man and when an ox gores a slave?
“If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. . . . If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned” (Exodus 21:28-32).
8. What was the plight of those not born Israelites?
(They were to be taken by the Israelites as slaves, and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. were destined to be slaves) “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46).
9. What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?
(Insincerity and Rudeness) “Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10).
10. What effect does God say warfare has on slavery?
(Whereas the men in any community invaded must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as slaves) “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).
It is also important to note that the concept of minority rights was not commonplace in the time of the writing of the bible or most other religious works, hence it would, IMHO, be wrong to look for guidance on same-sex marraige in these writings --assuming that you agree with me that this an issue of minority rights.
The natural conclusion to the thrust of your argument through the above references would be to answer every single one in detail with all supporting understanding of historical life, or use them as a reason to refute the parts of the Bible we find conflicts with our present life preferences!
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If we continue to adjust Gods word to encompass any and everything we find does not suit us then surely what is the point of saying that God is our father and looking for guidance from him?
I see your point here. However, I think it is important to realize that although the essence of the human condition remains the same, new and novel situations arise that neccisitate a reintreprtation/reunderstanding of the essence of divine messages. Apparently according to some people, God thinks a quicky drunken marriage in Las Vegas between 2 people that do not love each other, have no intention of having children, etc. upholds the sanctity of marraige whereas same-sex marraige does not. I think by arguing this way, people are blindly following words and conventions (taking the easy way out) rather than trying to understand what God's guidance would be on such an issue --this requires going deeper than a literal reading of the texts.
Umm. Why do you say that? Hebrews 13:4 ..Let marriage be honourable among all and the marriage bed be without defilement.....
Would you think having a cavalier attitude towards marriage would be fulfilling Gods requirement to make it honourable?
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I do not know what Sikh beliefs are so I cannot comment, however any religion that says everything is open and acceptable and down to the individual is surely just a cop out?
First of all I don't know any religion that says that everything is acceptable and down to the individual. Secondly, Sikhism does not prescribe what an appropriate marraige/relationship should be. All writings in the Guru Granth sahib that speak of marraige use the ideal relationship between men and women are used as metaphors for the devotion/duties one has to God --note that since these are used metaphorically they do not constitute a claim on what the nature of the relationship should be or whether it should only be between man and woman. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does contain text that indicates that married life is preferable to unmarried life (no doubt as a response to renunciates, sadhus, etc.) but again it does not specify that it should be between a man and women (it's funny how the jathedar has not issued a hukumnama against renunciates --a group that is clearly spoken out against in Sikhism). There are also clear and repeated assertions within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
that lust/passion (along with the other 4 "demons": anger, greed, attachment, pride) should be avoided. However, I don't think this can be taken as an argument against homosexuality since despite this Sikhs are expected to live a householders life.
Thanks for reading my L-O-N-G post!
Rab Rakha
Final Biblical thought: Colossians 2:8.. See to it then, that no one enslaves you by means of the worthless deceit of human wisdom, which comes from the teachings handed down by men,.... and not from Christ. (End quote)
So we each have to decide for ourselves and answer for those decisions, therefore our feelings of the rights and wrongs of a given belief are our own feelings and our continued showing of love and respect for our fellow man should not depend on me having to accept something I view as wrong or for me to be expect that the other person must fit into my understanding of right and wrong.
Each will be judged according to their deeds.
Very best wishes to all my friends.
John
